1. "Time of Death"
Posted by augusta on Jun-2nd-02 at 7:26 PM

William Masterton quotes Marcia Clark (prosecuting attorney at the OJ Simpson trial) regarding the time of death of a, uh, dead person:

" Q:  (Marcia Clark) "In your experience, sir, and based on the prior homicide experience you've had, what is the most narrow time frame you've been able to be given by a coroner based on analysis of stomach contents?"

A:  (Lange*) "As to time of death, I've never known time of death to be (given closer than) two to three hours."

* Detective Tom Lange

Excerpt from:  "Lizzie Didn't Do It!" by William L. Masterton, page 210, Branden Publishing Company, Boston, MA  c. 2000.

This passage stopped me in my tracks.  This is from modern times - not a hundred + years ago.  But how experienced is Detective Lange here?  Could all of his cases be not as specific as in the Bordens', where we know exactly what time they both ate dinner and exactly what they ate? 

He was specifically asked as to stomach contents.

Those doctors back then were of an age to have learned a lot of medicine as a result of the Civil War.
They would know, as now, to also look for blood coagulation, livor mortis, rigor mortis, body temperature, "changes in the vitreous humour of the eye", and yes, you're right, include in their calculation witness accounts of *last seen alive*, or *when last ate.*

In the book, ON DEATH'S BLOODY TRAIL, Brian Marriner, 1991,  states that the M.E. is not so much looking for Time Of Death, but "the time which has elapsed since death."
"Even the most favoured of detective novel myths, that the pathologist can estimate the time since the last meal was taken by determining how completely the stomach contents have been digested, is completely fallacious....forensic pathologists in general do not now place much reliance on digestion rate."
(pgs. 266-8)

Interesting, Kat.  The rate of digestion seems very logical to me to help in determining the time of death.  Why isn't it acceptable?

But this avoids the question again!!! What happened to Nicole's stomach contents? Were they discarded because it would show time of death after 11PM? Or what?

You should know that the Medical Examiner who did the autopsies said "the forensic evidence says they were murdered after 11PM" (see Dr.Michael Baden's recent book). This testimony was NOT wanted at the Trial of OJ, so they got the head to give a "politically correct" interpretation of the facts like the prosecution wanted.

I wonder how many on the jury had slaughtered animals and knew what's what. Probably becoming a rare thing. Most people think meat comes neatly wrapped in the supermarket; removed from reality?

The classic means for time of death is as true today as 100 years ago. See those picture of the dead Columbine killers - black clotted blood. That says they were dead for at least 40 minutes or so.
One witness (police officer) said Abby's blood was black, clotted, and dry to the touch; her body was cooler. "I stepped over a thousand bodies during the war." Ask any experienced deer hunter (or butcher?) about the time it takes for fresh red liquid blood to turn black and clotted.

I wasn't dealing with the O.J. case in my answer, but with the 100 year old Borden case.

Without referring to a book/source. I can tell you, Augusta, that the reason digestion is not counted upon too heavily for time of death is because people's RATE of digestion differs.
Some may be genectically disposed to have a rapid digestion.  Some slower.
There are variables to consider, also.  If a person ingests and then exercises, the rate will change, be retarded. 
If a person sits quietly, that also would determine the rate of digestion
STRESS can retard OR increase the rate.
Jumping into freezing cold water, as well...
It is too indiosyncratic a method to use to determine elapsed time since death, by itself.  Taken into consideration with other determinants, it can possibly be relied upon.

The author of that book did state that if some scientist put their mind and money to the problem, he was in no doubt that a viable way COULD eventually be determined. 
Does Masterton, writing SINCE 1991, have a solution?

Boy, Kat, I guess mom was right about going swimming right after eating afterall!  Very interesting posts on this subject! 

Ah, that makes sense, Kat.  But in the Bordens' case, I thought it was pretty clear that Abby's time of death could be determined by her digestion (among other things).  I thought her stomach content exam fit right in with the other time-of-death clews they had.  Like Ray says, the clotted blood & her body temp.  I thought Masterton was really reaching - really trying to hammer that piece in to fit his particular puzzle solution - by questioning Abby's stomach contents, saying that an 1890's mince pie had the same stuff in it.  I don't know how he got around the body temp and the clotted blood.  I'll have to look again.

Oh, he did say something I wondered about.  He said the reason Abby wasn't seen going to and from her house that morning was because nobody was looking for her.  It's way off base.

Regarding Marcia Clark's quiz about time of death. Isn't that a classic question designed to mislead and misinform?

Det. Lange is not a trained physician, and never did any autopsies, and could not qualify as an expert in this case (IMO). This is not to say he doesn't have decades of experience that most readers / viewers cannot match. It would be better to ask a Medical Examiner.

Didn't the three expert Doctors come up with three different ranges for Abby's death? The "90 minutes before Andy" was the average, as I remember it.

After I began to doubt the "OJ did it scenario", I heard a retired police detective from Manhattan who said they could put him in contact with either the prosecution or the defense and he would tell them from his experience: Ron was the target, Nicole the bystander. He saw many murders where the victim was stabbed repeatedly in a frenzy (like Ron). Nicole was quickly dispatched; she knew too much.

What about the multiple chops on Abby & Andy? Frenzied rage here?

As someone with chronic stomach problems, including, until a year ago, gastroparesis - a condition in which the vagus nerve is damaged and the stomach takes a very long time to move its contents into the intestines - I'm less likely than I used to be to rely on the digestion testimony to fix Abby as the earlier decedent.  However, the condition of her blood, given variously as dark, covered with a membrane, clotted, etc., along with the estimation of her body temperature as "cooler" has always convinced me that she'd been dead quite a while.  Add also the testimony that Andrew's blood was still oozing from his wounds, and I think that destroys Masterton's thesis (along with the preposterous idea of the "invisible Abby," seen by no one as she negotiated the neighboring streets to Sarah's and back)! 

Interesting post, Bob.  Sorry you have the stomach problem.  I have the opposite - spastic colon - at times.  Not fun.  That makes for a good reason not to count on the stomach contents.  People must have had the same stomach ailments back then as people today. 

I was reading Dr. Bowen's Preliminary testimony today.  He says that he had formed NO opinion on Abby's time of death at all - he was only going by what the other doctors said.  The more I read on him, the more I see how upset he was that morning.  Sounds like he was in some sort of shock, worse than I first thought.

Ray, Detective Lange was speaking about his info he got from the coroner.  I wondered the same thing when I first read that - I had to re-read it and see the word 'coroner' was in there. 

Interesting theory on Ron Goldman's killing.  It does make more sense than OJ doing it.  But didn't he interrupt the killing of Nicole?  Maybe the killer took the rest of his rage against Nicole out on Ron.

Yes, the Borden killings were done in a frenzy.  I'd say there had to have been a great deal of hatred toward them by the killer.  I'd bet on it.

Why is there not more blood?

Bertha Manchester, with 5 axe wounds (that we know of), bled all over the place.

Nicole & Ron bled literally RIVERS down the sidewalk.  I have the crime scene photo's from the Enquirer.

Why didn't 29 total head wounds in the Borden case produce more blood?

Probably because they were killed with the earliest blows. Once the heart stops there is no more spurting. Only gravity after that would cause the blood to flow.

There seems to be more blood in Abby's killing than Andrews.

If they were killed with the first blow or two, their arteries wouldn't spurt and there would not be much blood. 

Maybe a butcher would know this.  As in William Davis.  It's pretty coincidental that blood didn't spurt all over heck with both of them.

I did not buy that issue of the National Enquirer, but looked at the pictures while waiting in line. I do remember the blood was red and liquid (as the newspaper said). Or was this just another enhancement?
Later they showed a picture of Nicole with bruises (and noted this was a modified picture). When people complained that they did this, they pointed to the fine print under that picture.

If liquid, this does time the death to less than an hour (or 30 minutes). What do the others say?

Getting back to that remark of Det. Lange ("two to three hours"). Isn't that the time it takes to digest a meal? An empty stomach provides NO time of death (after 3 hours?). The quote was Andy's stomach contents were 90% liquid, Abby's 10% liquid. Used to estimate the time of death. (As I remember it.)

I have seen a site with the actual crime scene photos of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman.  It was horrific!  You could see the violence perpetrated on the two.  It makes the Borden's murder look positivly gentle by comparison! 

I saw the Brown/Goldman pictures in the Enquirer.  I believe that the "murder" pictures were simulated or computer enhanced to show what it probably looked like, and I thought gee, why bother buying it if it's not a real photo (not that I really wanted a real photo of that).  If you still have the issue, look around real closely for a disclaimer.  It wasn't easy to find.

(Message last edited Jun-7th-02  7:07 PM.)

Whatever the National Enquirer printed, the testimony is that "red, liquid blood was trickling down the sidewalk". Towels were used to mop up this blood. See the various books on this murder.

When the National Enquirer printed a photo of Nicole with bruises on her face, the small print below it said "simulated photograph". (But many of their readers may not know the word, or can't look it up?) Days later, when the Establishment Press criticized them, they said "look, we said it was simulated"!

I thought that most wife beaters are usually careful to hit them where it doesn't show. Like that Federal Cabinet officer of Bush I?

In Wm Masterton's quote - was it out of context? Obviously a time of 2 to 3 hours will see the completion of digestion. True in the Borden case as well with Nicole's missing stomach contents (discarded because it was empty three hours after her 8PM supper?).

Both were alive around 9AM; Andy around 10:45. Abby died over an hour earlier. The science of digestion times goes back to the 1830s.

In "Fatal Justice" they note how evidence is discarded when it goes against the Prosecution's case. Isn't this what happened here?

Augusta, I SAW the ACTUAL crime scene photos, not the National Inquirer simulated photos.  Its on a very disturbing site I happened across, I wouldn't advise anyone going to view it, I felt unclean and disturbed after having only looked at a few of the items there.  Yuck! 

I just visited the O.J. crime scene photo site, at Yahoo.
Then I looked up the magazine pictures I had saved.
Turns out mine were not from the Enquirer, they were from the Globe...Oct. 10, & 31, '95.
These were THE SAME, except for one, as the crime scene (BobAugust) web-site.  In the Globe they do not say "simulated".  These were the original "river of blood" photo's I was referring to. (In both, the neck of Nicole is "censored", right?)
I had saved a years worth of these magazines...there are also the Bronco interior photo's.  In other issues there are shots of his house and bloody socks, shower floor, Ron Goldman's shirt and jeans, etc...I have about 50 of these collected, throughout that year.  They include more photo's than are at that web-site.

OK, so what is the site URL? I can decide for myself.

The problem is still this: could OJ have quickly disposed of the bloody clothes, shoes, and knives so they would never be found, yet bring back the socks and one glove? Then wipe blook on the Bronco's console, yet leave NONE on the steering wheel?

I found this site via Yahoo; it is really quite good!
You can decide about the content for your self.

http://www.wagnerandson.com/oj/about.htm

I found this site via Yahoo; it is really quite good!
You can decide about the content for your self.

http://www.wagnerandson.com/



(Message last edited Jun-10th-02  4:47 PM.)

I'm really sorry, Rays that I didn't get back to you.
If it makes the excuse any more valid, I haven't even had my dinner yet today!
I made a note to respond, and got sidetracked...BUT you came up with a doozy of a site!
I only looked at "Ron Goldman's Clothes" to get a sense of the content.  It did have the pertinent photo's, so I'm already satisfied that this may be a worthwhile site to study.
Thanks.
Give some time on this....kk

I just found it, and cannot comment on it. The author seems old and wise (at first glance). I'll spend more time in the future.

There is another site www.geocities.com/capitolhill/5244 (??) that goes into QUITE a lot of detail, news and views that you won't find in the newspapers. Read it to stretch your mind.

Dr M Baden's "Dead Reckoning" quotes the Medical Examiner that most of "the forensice evidence says they were killed after 11PM". Another example of disappearing evidence at the trial?

We know they discarded Nicole's stomach contents. Because it was empty and could not provide a time of death? Should be empty after 3 hours; which is why she served herself some ice cream as a snack. Which implies she expected no visitors?

They said her bed had a messy sheets. Would she have left it like that all day? Or somebody else had been there earlier?

Forgive me if I'm getting off topic. But I found out about the Borden case while looking up a more modern mystery.

Very interesting site, Rays!  I saw the pictures from a London tabloid on www.rotten.com, though as I had posted earlier, I would advise against visiting there.  The name says it all as I felt rotten for having visited it, theres all sorts of nasty, weird, pornographic pics on it.