Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden
Topic Name: What Got You Started?

1. "What Got You Started?"
Posted by Susan on Aug-7th-02 at 12:27 AM

What with the 110th anniversary of the Borden murders, it made me curious.  What got you started on the whole Lizzie Borden thing?

For me it was the Legend of Lizzie Borden movie with Elizabeth Montgomery.  I remember seeing the previews for it, and it was all my girlfriends and I could talk about.  Then when I actually saw it and read that it was based on a true story, something just clicked in my mind!  I went to the library a day or two after and got every Lizzie book that they had available!!!  Every book that I finished reading, my twin brother picked up and started reading.  I had a built in Bordenite to discuss the case with!  We shared with our friends what we knew and discussed it against what was shown in the movie.  I've been a Bordenite ever since! 


2. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Kashesan on Aug-7th-02 at 8:07 AM
In response to Message #1.

I was a big fan of the TV movie too, Susan. But I felt that Lizzie had to have been more than the one dimensional character that was portrayed (Mad, sweating, running around the house naked with an ax) Evan Hunter's novel really brought her to life for me-whether or not historically accurate-I found it emotionally on target. That he somehow got into her head and her heart. That's when I went to the library and began devouring everything I could find about the case, and Lizzie in general.


3. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Edisto on Aug-7th-02 at 2:17 PM
In response to Message #1.

Hmmmm.  I guess no big revelation came over me all of a sudden.  I've "always" known about Lizzie, possibly based on that silly rhyme.  Then came the "Legend" movie, which certainly gave Lizzie a lot of press, whether good or bad.  A few years after that, I had a business trip to Boston.  My (then) boyfriend decided to drive me up and spend a few days there too. On the way, I asked to go to Fall River and get a look at "the" house.  Somehow, I knew where to find it; it was a private residence then.  We drove by it very slowly in a snowstorm.  I stashed Lizzie away in the back of my mind, although I did watch the movie another couple of times on cable.  Then in 1998, we planned a New England vacation, so that I could pick up the few U. S. states I hadn't yet visited.  I saw a piece on TV about the opening of the B&B, and I decided we had to stay there.  We planned the trip around that.  I read Arnold Brown's book (only one I could find at the bookstore) in preparation.  Sitting around at the B&B, discussing the case, I realized how fascinating it is, and I was hooked.  I spent all my vacation money on books from the B&B's gift shop, and Lizzie was one of the first things I searched for when we went on the Internet.


4. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by diana on Aug-7th-02 at 2:35 PM
In response to Message #2.

For me, it was Victoria Lincoln's book. I picked it up at the public library one day -- and read it all in one sitting. I was absolutely enthralled by the mood produced by the setting and the era.

I've delved into other unsolved crimes that happened around that era; e.g. Julia Wallace, and the Smuttynose Murders. But nothing continues to intrigue me as much as the Borden case.

For years, as I bought more and more books on the murders, I nurtured this interest alone.  When I mentioned my absorption with the case, friends dismissed it as either bizarre or macabre. So finding this great forum and sharing opinions with like minds, has been, as Martha would put it: "A good thing".   


5. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by rays on Aug-7th-02 at 6:27 PM
In response to Message #1.

In my 1997 vacation I went to the public library to look up the books on a more recent case (guess?). I found A R Brown's book in the 'true crime' section, browsed it, and decided to read up on the few Borden Murders books. The ONE BIG THING was the fact about the clotted blood; like most people nowadays, I never gathered my own food.


6. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Tina-Kate on Aug-7th-02 at 10:13 PM
In response to Message #5.

My true crime obsessed British parents...followed by Liz Montgomery.  In the early 80s, my dad gave me a used copy of Spiering.  I then bought Evan Hunter, followed shortly by a library copy of A R Brown.  Next I worked on my own theories, applying a kind of psychological study of Lizzie & her family dynamic...was thinking of writing something for the 100th anniversary, but was waylaid by another writing project at the time.  Made my parents go silent when I explained my theory...I think logic took the mystique out of it for them. 

Lizzie was also one of my 1st internet searches.  Took my crazy trip to Fall River.  Obsessively bought every Lizzie book I could find.  Became an addict to the Lizzie Boards.  Wrote my 2 fiction stories.  And I'm STILL here...

Loved yr twin story, Susan.  As a Gemini, I've often wondered what it would be like to have a twin...rather than just talking everything over from all angles with MYSELF


7. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Susan on Aug-8th-02 at 12:44 AM
In response to Message #6.

Thanks all for the replies!  I've often wondered what it was that got other people interested in this case.  It seems that most people started with a book and went from there, I still remember the first book I read was Goodbye Lizzie Borden by Robert Sullivan.  When I saw my first picture of Lizzie I was shocked, she and Elizabeth Montgomery looked so similar!  It spooked me! 


8. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Kat on Aug-8th-02 at 3:26 AM
In response to Message #7.

Stefani & I also had "True-Crime Inquiring Minds" parents.  We also had no-holds-barred discussion time at the dinner table.
The first true crime we read as a family was BEYOND BELIEF, the story of the Moors Murders, a most fantastically written tome by Emlyn Williams.  HOOKED.

Then we had Boston Strangler/Manson/Jeffery McDonald/Shepherd/Zodiac/Green River/Bundy etc.

Our dad read Sullivan's Goodbye Lizzie Borden, and passed it around to us in the 70's.  It's like we ALWAYS knew about it.  Like always knowing about Jack the Ripper.
But Lizzie was DIFFERENT.
Lizzie could have been us....American, 20's to 30's, spinster, upper middle class, churchgoing.  She wasn't a spree killer or a serial killer or a mass murderer or a poisoner of her husband.  She was and IS unique.  She STUCK.
I think I read Porter next, from the Library, while Stef off on her own later was probably reading Lincoln, and then we traded.
Then at school, Stef worked as an archivist and sent home great articles with great pictures...she also had started compiling a Bibliography and Index style listing of her own notes, way back then.  [I still have her notes and references.]
This kept the mystery alive!  Getting copies of great stuff in the mail over years, all through the 80's & all about Lizzie.  (Our very own *Library Connection*).
AND she STILL is working towards that goal of sharing all *the Lizzie stuff*....remarkable.
Of course that VIDEO "Legend..." was remarkable at making the scene come ALIVE...


9. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by MissMary on Aug-8th-02 at 3:50 PM
In response to Message #8.

How did I get started on the Lizzie thing?  Well, growing up not far from Fall River, Mass in nearby Rhode Island, she's just a local ledgend and I can't remember not knowing about her.   I remember when we were just little kids, we used to play jump rope and sing the little ditty "Lizzie Borden took an axe......." to it.


10. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Susan on Aug-8th-02 at 9:54 PM
In response to Message #8.

Thanks, Kat.  So, in a way you and Stefani had a similar experience as my brother and I, sharing whatever books you read, articles, etc.

And to think that theres MORE!!! 

Ah, Miss Mary, we actually have someone who did jump rope to the Lizzie rhyme!  How cool!  Oh, and BTW, welcome to the LAB Forum!!!


11. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Kimberly on Aug-9th-02 at 1:31 AM
In response to Message #1.

I think I always knew about Lizzie, because
I was born on August 4th (ages ago in 1972). Most
people know what happened on their birthday and who
else is celebrating. I always thought it was really
cool being born on such an infamous day. 


12. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Susan on Aug-9th-02 at 3:41 AM
In response to Message #11.

Happy late birthday, Kimberly!  What a day to be born on!  You're a fellow Leo, my birthday is coming up!  I know I share the day with Connie Chung, Jacqueline Susann, and H.P. Lovecraft! 


13. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by MissMary on Aug-9th-02 at 4:03 PM
In response to Message #10.

Well thank you Susan for the welcome!  Nice to meet you and everyone else as well.   Glad I found this forum.  Yup, we actually used to jump rope to that song.  Deranged little kids we were.  LOL! Oh well!

Have any of you had the opportunity to go to the house?  I took a tour a couple of years ago. It was pretty cool! 


14. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Kimberly on Aug-9th-02 at 5:37 PM
In response to Message #12.

Thank you Susan! And Happy Early Birthday to you!


15. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Susan on Aug-9th-02 at 9:28 PM
In response to Message #13.

No, I personally have never visited the Borden home.  When I moved from the east coast I believe it was still a private residence.  Would love to go one day though!  And Miss Mary, I can't speak for the others, but, I have a little of that deranged quality myself, I think thats what brings us all to Lizzie and her family!


Thanks, Kimberly!  Birthdays are great....except for that getting older part. 


16. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Doug on Aug-9th-02 at 11:55 PM
In response to Message #1.

I first heard of Lizzie Borden when I was nine or ten years old. I was at a friend's house and we saw a TV show about Lizzie and the Borden murders. Unfortunately I don't now remember what program it was. I was fascinated by the puzzle of who, how, and why! Soon afterward my father, recognizing my interest, bought me the book Lizzie Borden: The Untold Story by Edward D. Radin which had been recently published. I read the book through and was "hooked," the beginning of a lifelong interest and hobby.


17. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Kat on Aug-10th-02 at 2:51 AM
In response to Message #16.

Welcome to all the new posters! 

--I can't imagine knowing Lizzie at 10 years old!
I wonder if it was because where some of you grew up?
What do you think?

--I thought, where was I at 10, or when I was jumping rope?  At 10 I was living in a little beach town called Cocoa Beach, right on a canal & 2 blocks from the ocean.  It was SPACE RACE, big time, so we were into that.  And Bay of Pigs, and Conal-rad, and drills where we had to crawl under our desks to escape missles and bombs (yea right).  And fishing!  And our little plastic yellow row boat.  And fishing.
No Lizzie, at 10...


18. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by MissMary on Aug-10th-02 at 1:29 PM
In response to Message #17.

LOL Kat! Isnt Coco Beach, Fl where Major Nelson & Jeannie lived? 

Anyway, the reason why I always knew about Lizzie is definitely and without a doubt because of where I grew up.  I guess it would be in comparison to kids who live in West Virginia & Kentucky, for example. They grew up hearing tales of the Hatfields & the McCoys since the cradle. 


19. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Susan on Aug-10th-02 at 2:14 PM
In response to Message #18.

Its funny, I grew up on the east coast and I never heard a word about Lizzie Borden.  It wasn't until the movie, Legend, that I started asking questions and got my family's recollections on the case.  And, my one grandmother did skip rope to "Lizzie Borden took an axe...". 


20. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by rays on Aug-10th-02 at 4:43 PM
In response to Message #16.

Back in the 1950s "You Are There" (a drama that recreated history) did a story on the Borden Murders (Lizzie w/ axe), as I remember faintly.
Then the 1974 (?) TV drama (see Lizzie nude!), published after Sullivan's book came out.
In the fall of 1991 "Unsolved Mysteries" did a story on the Borden house. Coincident w/ A R Brown's book?
Only the last clicked for me because the Sunday newspaper did a review on the A R Brown. I found it interesting, but had higher priorities.

Anyone else's memories match mine?


21. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by MissMary on Aug-10th-02 at 4:46 PM
In response to Message #19.

Actually, I do have this one friend who grew up in the same city/state as I did and she had never heard of Lizzie Borden until she was about 25 years old and she learned it from me apparently.  She is about 8 years younger than me but I was shocked she had never heard.   I was like how can you not know about Lizzie Borden.    LOL!!

I can see where a lot of people (back in the day) probably learned about her from the Liz Montgomery movie.  And now they have all these documentaries and profiles about it on the History Channel and The Learning Channel.

Thats really very interesting Susan, that your grandmother skipped rope to the tune as well!!! I never really thought about it but I guess it was a thing that was passed down from generation to generation.     


22. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Susan on Aug-10th-02 at 5:09 PM
In response to Message #21.

Miss Mary, my one grandmother grew up in Boston for a short while, I believe thats where she picked it up.  I think most of the people in the know are centered in the New England area, it kind of trickles out from there. 


23. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Doug on Aug-10th-02 at 5:26 PM
In response to Message #17.

Kat, I have not heard of "Conalrad" (I'm not sure my spelling is correct) for many years. My elementary school classmates and I also did the drills of going under our desks and filing to the bathrooms in our school basement as practice in case of a Soviet nuclear attack. I recall a family in my neighborhood who set up a "bomb shelter" in their cellar. They put away food supplies and large glass jars of water with sheets of wax paper screwed down under the lids. I remember Ike and John Foster Dulles and Francis Gary Powers. And nights when my family and friends went outside to look up and watch the early satellites pass overhead.

As far as early knowledge of Lizzie goes I grew up in Connecticut, a neighboring state to Massachusetts. As a young man my father lived and worked in Dartmouth, Massachusetts, between Fall River and New Bedford. Both of my parents and all of my grandparents were Massachusetts natives. I don't think proximity is essential but I guess it helps!


24. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Doug on Aug-10th-02 at 5:49 PM
In response to Message #20.

Ray, I don't know whether the TV show about Lizzie I saw around 1961/62 was "You Are There" though I recall the show being more of a "documentary style" than a "dramatic style" program. Perhaps a rerun? I saw the Elizabeth Montgomery movie in the 1970s when it first aired and a couple of times since. I always get a kick out of the landscape which appears in the background behind the Borden house in the Elizabeth Montgomery movie!


25. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Kat on Aug-11th-02 at 5:52 AM
In response to Message #24.

There was around the time of 1956, an episode of Alfred Hitchcock Presents, that was called "The Older Sister", by Robert C. Daniels, listed in the Bibliographies section at the Virtual Museum/Library.
We did watch Alfred Hitchcock (with the light off!), but I don't recall that one based on the Borden Case.  My memories of "Hitchcock Presents" begin about 1959.
(Was Outer Limits on then?)


26. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by bobcook848 on Aug-11th-02 at 12:04 PM
In response to Message #25.

I was born and raised in East Central Illinois...born 9/13..same as our beloved Andrew J.  As a child we too sang and skipped rope to the "Lizzie Borden took an axe...." quadtrane but it my late Uncle Edward Leach who most often spoke of Lizzie as if he knew her.

Uncle Ed was a native of Fall River born and raised in the southend. His parents were mill workers and at the age of 17 he joined the military and went off to fight in the "Big One"...WW 2.

Uncle was a turret gunner on a B-52? tail section.  He had many war stories when he came home.  When he came home he was stationed at Chanute Air Base in Rantoul, Illinois.  My hometown, Danville, home of Dick and Jerry VanDyke and Chuckles, the candy not the clown, was THE only "wet town" in the county.

So all the service men came to D'ville for a wet of the whistle.  It was in an unknown gin mill that Edward Leach of Fall River, Massachusetts met Ms. Ethyle Lee, my late mother's oldest sister.

It was love at first sight and soon the two were wed and raising a family.  Uncle really didn't care for the midwest but he endured the stay as his wife, Auntie Ethyle, chose to stay in her native city and be close to her mother and two sisters.

As a child my siblings and I were entained with stories from Uncle Ed about his relationship to Lizzie Borden.  He maintained, until his death some 10 yrs ago, that he was "in fact a decendent" of our dear Borden family. 

Uncle loved to tell the tale of that fateful day in August 1892 as if he himself were in the sitting room when the axe fell.  In fact the more Uncle drank the more he convinced both himself and us that he was a "Borden". 

And as always when Unc reached the point-of-no-return he would, from out of nowhere, produce a small hand held hatchet, which he would wave overhead and proclaim, "watch out for me, I'm a cousin of Lizzie Borden!!!".

Of course Auntie or some other responsible adult would tell him to put the hatchet away and give it up.  Unc would oblige and the side show was over.

In the mid-60's Uncle and Auntie moved back to his old haunts with kids in tow and resettled in Attleboro.  In August 1970 after having just graduated from High School I came to Attleboro for a two week vacation and never went back to D'ville.

Uncle Ed passed away about 10 years ago and Auntie still lives here in Attleboro.  I have yet to confirm that he was "in fact" a decendent of Lizzie Borden or any Borden for that matter.  But I can always picture Uncle waving that hatchet overhead while louding making his proclamation.

More recently in March of this year my daughter wanted to spend her 21st birthday at the B & B and so the two of us, as neither son nor wife would brave the stay, spent a night at 92 Second Street.

In the month or two prior to our stay both she and I checked out at least six books from the Seekonk library and "re-discovered" the case. That is when I truly became a Bordenite.



BC


27. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Susan on Aug-11th-02 at 3:25 PM
In response to Message #26.

Wow, great story, BobCook848!!!  So, at least it sounds like you have your daughter to share your Bordenmania with!

Your Uncle Ed sounds like quite the character!  Isn't there one of those in every family? 


28. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Doug on Aug-11th-02 at 6:23 PM
In response to Message #25.

I have seen "The Older Sister" (the Hitchcock show) as a TV classic on one of the cable networks but I don't remember seeing it as a child. I don't think it is the program that sparked my Lizzie interest.


29. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Tina-Kate on Aug-12th-02 at 12:34 AM
In response to Message #28.

Bob Cook Bob Cook; great story great story!

Obviously you weren't traumatized by yr axe-swinging uncle!  That was hilarious!


30. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Kat on Aug-12th-02 at 2:55 AM
In response to Message #28.

Maybe Ray remembers  that show...
I think the video is for sale, now.

So bobcookbobcook, you just happened to gravitate toward a job that involves Axes & Hatchets?  Is that what we're supposed to believe?  Is That Your Story.....?


31. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by rays on Aug-12th-02 at 4:14 PM
In response to Message #24.

"You Are There" ran during the 1950s (1952? - 1960?) or so.
I vaguely remember it. Does anyone else? I doubt that there were any repeats of this CBS-TV station in NY (live?).


32. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by rays on Aug-12th-02 at 4:16 PM
In response to Message #31.

But I distinctly remember reading about the case in the Sunday Daily News. Each Sunday they would tell about some famous murder case, usually solved. Perhaps a repeat from Pearson?


33. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by rays on Aug-12th-02 at 4:16 PM
In response to Message #31.

But I distinctly remember reading about the case in the Sunday Daily News. Each Sunday they would tell about some famous murder case, usually solved. Perhaps a repeat from Pearson?


34. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Kat on Aug-13th-02 at 2:45 AM
In response to Message #31.

I think I remember "You Are There".
But not a segment on Lizzie.
Ray, did YOu see the Alfred Hitchcock Presents teleplay?


35. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by rays on Aug-13th-02 at 5:00 PM
In response to Message #34.

No recollection. Hitchcock was on Sunday nights in the late 1950s. I think we watched something else. During the 1960s I didn't watch much TV, but read a lot. I did not see the shows during the mid 1990s.


36. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by bobcook848 on Aug-19th-02 at 9:01 AM
In response to Message #35.

Sorry for a delayed reply...computer had a virus..blah, blah, blah.

Anyway...I do believe every family has an "Uncle Ed" who claims to be something from history.  My Uncle was death serious about his family connections...though I seriously doubt some of his tales...I could never find any Borden who married into the Leach clan.  Maybe there is maybe there isn't.

Kat: I never really gave it any thought...but you're right...I DID go into a job dealing with axes and hatchets didn't I??  LOL...how bizzare is that??

That's my story.........etc,etc.

BC


37. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Susan on Aug-19th-02 at 11:40 AM
In response to Message #36.

What job would that be BobCook848?  Axes and hatchets, hmmm.  :rolleyes:


38. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by augusta on Aug-31st-02 at 11:40 AM
In response to Message #37.

I got started on Lizzie when I was about 10 years old.  My older sister brought home a book on her from the public library. I don't know which one it was.  The jacket had the photo of Lizzie behind the chair in Newport on the cover.  Those eyes got me hooked.  I was always fascinated by people in old photographs.  When I peeked inside and saw the murder photos I was petrified but fascinated.  I took the book to bed with me (a dumb time of the day to be reading that when you're ten years old) and started to read it.  Didn't get very far.  Tried not to look at the murder photos in bed, but always ended up peeking, then being sorry I did.  I read that it took place in "Fall River, Massachusetts".  What a lovely name, I thought, and what an interesting era.  I hoped to go there some day but thought I never would get the chance.  I remember reading the part about Lizzie saying she saw someone run around the house one night on her way home, and that scared me.  My sister would always take the book back to the library before I got further.  She'd get it out every year or so, and the same thing would happen for a few summers.  When the movie came out, I missed it on tv.  Everyone at school was talking about it.  I caught it on a re-run in the 1980's.  Then I got Spiering's book, which was written very well.  Then Evan Hunter's, which I still say is a good book.  Like - was it Diana who posted on this thread about it? - it made her come alive.  From there, there was no stopping the case of Bordenitis I'd come down with.

To have a birthday on August 4 is way cool. 

Walter Cronkite hosted and narrated "You are There" in the 1960's.  But it didn't last very long, tho it was GOOD.  That show I remember and wish they'd re-run it.  There might have been another earlier version. 

Oh, the landscape in the background of the "Legend" movie!  You know, I never noticed that until Bob G. posted about it a while back.  Did you notice the topiary trees in the Borden's front yard in the movie?  I fell for it when I saw it.  And have since had a love for topiary trees.  When I saw real photos of the house, I thought 'Where are the topiary trees?'  And when I went to the house the first time I thought 'But where are the topiary trees?'  Then it hit me.  Hollywood had the topiary trees. 


39. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Kat on Aug-31st-02 at 1:24 PM
In response to Message #38.

Stef had just remarked to me about that "Legend" movie.
She said it made her expect a pretty red brick building.
When she got there she asked "Where's the nice brick building?
And the grassy front yard  with the long walkway?"
Even tho she knew better....


40. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Susan on Aug-31st-02 at 4:05 PM
In response to Message #39.

Isn't it amazing what an impact that movie has had on people?  When I saw it for the first time, I thought that Andrew and Abby almost deserved it as they were portrayed in the movie.  Even after I read my first book, Andrew came across as "Scrooge"!  Its been a more recent thing with me to delve into who these people really were and what made them tick.  I just wish we had more info on them and their lives! 


41. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by kimberly on Aug-31st-02 at 4:23 PM
In response to Message #38.

I remember plainly being in the fifth grade and seeing
Elizabeth Montgomery in 'The Legend' for the first time,
it was on TBS & I waited every year to watch it again.
I could never imagine anyone being as perfectly suited to a
role as she was as Lizzie, I don't think I ever actually saw a picture of Lizzie until years later but even today if I watch Bewitched it is like watching Lizzie on TV.


42. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by kimberly on Aug-31st-02 at 10:42 PM
In response to Message #41.

Later I saw a bio on the Discovery Channel,
called Country Lawyer: Lizzie Borden, it was by Michael Wilkerson,
it was from 1994 & featured interviews with Michael Martins,
Jules Rykebusch, Ed Thibault & Florence Brigham (among others).
It is probably inaccurate but I still like it. I taped it & I like to watch it on occasion. It has great background music--lots of
Victorian 'harpsichord' tinkering & wind blowing.


43. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Susan on Sep-1st-02 at 5:03 PM
In response to Message #42.

I don't think I've ever seen that one?  Sounds interesting! 


44. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by kimberly on Sep-1st-02 at 9:45 PM
In response to Message #43.

I don't think I ever saw it on again, I did a search to
see if it was ever mentioned & the only match was to Stefani's,
Robert A. Flynn wrote a letter to the editor of the Lizzie Borden Quarterly & said it "was a disappointment". But I liked it anyway.


45. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Susan on Sep-2nd-02 at 2:31 PM
In response to Message #44.

I love the documentary shows I've seen where they interview the "authorities" on Lizzie.  They've always been interesting.  Maybe he found it disappointing because it covered no new ground? 


46. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by kimberly on Sep-2nd-02 at 9:04 PM
In response to Message #45.

He also said he wished for "someone to produce a classic documentary on the case." That was in 1994-95, have you (or anyone) seen any?


47. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by bobcook848 on Sep-3rd-02 at 1:25 PM
In response to Message #37.

Response to Susan, Message #37:  my occupation with axes and hatchets would be that of Firefighter.  Employed by the City of Attleboro Massachusetts for these past 20+ years. 

PS: sorry for the protracted delay...it's a looooooooonnnggg story

BC


48. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Kat on Sep-3rd-02 at 10:18 PM
In response to Message #47.

."....and you're stickin' to it, Right?"


BobcookBobcook as a young boy


49. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Susan on Sep-4th-02 at 2:03 AM
In response to Message #47.

Oh, thanks, BobCook!  That would explain it!  Now if you were in the Fall River Fire Dept............


Kat, that is just adorable!  Now, I want to see what BobCook really looked like when he was that small and a current pic in his uniform!  One of my uncles used to be on, or would that be in, the Fire Dept. in Spring Lake, NJ. 


50. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Kat on Sep-4th-02 at 2:17 AM
In response to Message #49.

BobcookBobcook also has TWINS, boy sort & girl sort.
And born on Andrew Borden's birthday...


51. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Susan on Sep-4th-02 at 2:50 AM
In response to Message #50.

Wow!  Thats so cool!  I think that we boy and girl twin sorts are in a minority, more same sex fraternal than not. 


52. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Kat on Sep-4th-02 at 4:42 PM
In response to Message #51.

I thought that info would get you.
BTW:  BobcookBobcook was born Sept 13, NOT twins as my late message inferred.


53. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by bobcook848 on Sep-5th-02 at 10:40 PM
In response to Message #52.

Well, well...I see I am getting some publicity...and thank you all for your words...I am most humble pie... .

My twins are starting their senior years in college...she at Framingham State and he at Johnson and Wales in Providence.  She a Child Psyche major and he a Managment major. 

Of course I am still pluggin away on my Masters...taking three classes this semester...I really DO need my head examined...

Kat: you really are toooooo much girl...how on earth did you ever find my "little boy" picture...   Luv you for that one, for sure.

Susan: sorry to disappoint but I am not with the Fall River FD...I do however know many of the "older" guys...we used attend the state firefighters meetings together...but I haven't been involved in union work for years, too busy with my education.  I am nonetheless proud to be firefighter with a smaller New England City (Attleboro).

And as always...that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!!!

How I nearly forgot...it's on a Friday this year....

BC


54. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Susan on Sep-6th-02 at 4:05 AM
In response to Message #53.

Wow, BobCook, it sounds like your twins are different?  Do they share alot of common interests?  My twin and I share alot of things, but, then we do have some things that are exclusive to ourselves.

And you have every right to be proud, big town or small, guys and gals like you who put their lives on the line with fires!  I used to hear stories from my uncle and what he went through, lets hear it for the fire-fighters of the US!  Woo Hoo! 


55. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by bobcook848 on Sep-6th-02 at 12:45 PM
In response to Message #54.

Ahhhh...sucks, Ms. Susan.....you're making me blush...and thanks to you and all our fellow Americans for having the confidence in us.  On behalf of my brother and sister firefighters...THANK YOU!

Now as to the matter of my twins.  They are quite different in many respects.  Andrew or Andy as we have called him was born five minutes before his sister Alyssa or Sis as we sometimes call her.

Andy is six foot plus has a dark complexion as his mother does (she's French Canadian extraction) dark brown eyes, black hair and killer looks, much like his mother. 

Alyssa however is totally opposite five foot something (like mother) stocky (like dad) blonde, blonde hair and blue/green eyes.  She favors my side of the genetic pool.  The German/Hungarian side.

Common to both: high academic standings, dependable, hard working, strong ethics and they love to spend dad's (and mom's) M-O-N-E-Y!!
When they have exhausted their own. 

Number three child (son Nathan(Nate)) is pretty much a reliable cross of the other two.  We love them all three so very much and wouldn't trade any of them for all the sunlight in the universe. 

Soooooooooooooo...that's my tale and you know what I'm doing with it..

BC


56. "Re: What Got You Started?"
Posted by Kat on Sep-6th-02 at 1:27 PM
In response to Message #55.

Great to have you BACK, big guy!

We will need a little Nate info eventually, to give equal time to.

I wish They had offered Parapsychology at UMASS the year I went there.  I might be a Jeanne Dixon by now!  and in the Enquirer!


57. "Discovery Channel Video"
Posted by Kat on Sep-6th-02 at 5:49 PM
In response to Message #42.

I re-viewed the Discovery Channel's offering of "Lizzie Borden Took an Axe?" that we have on video, duped from T.V., broadcast dated 2/15/96.  Video date MCMXCIV.

It was made by TIME TRAVELER- Barrister Productions, L.C., with John Vernon narrating.
It begins with the verse by Michael Wilkerson, "Lizbeth of Maplecroft."
Our host, The Old Country Lawyer, was from "...Atwood, Oklahoma, population 60" and he asks why a "100 year-old murder case" would transcend regional boundries, and age barriers to become known to him in his small town by the age of 7 as the famous rhyme, "Lizzie Borden took an axe..."  His answer was that this was THE most famous murder case in American History...it captured the attention...because it was of the "stuff of which Legends are Made."

The video is comprised of several parts:
THE HOUSE, MURDER MOST FOUL. SUSPICION, A JURY OF HER PEERS, & the EPILOGUE.

In the HOUSE segment we hear all the old myths and gossip repeated, one-dimensional renderings of Andrew as miserly, tight-fisted, stingy, wearing his dark clothes, offering his eggs for sale, & "stopping at his 3 banks" daily.  Abby was married for her full-time housekeeping abilities, she was not attractive, & she needed Andrew's money.  Lizzie was portrayed as Trapped in a "dismal" house with an "interloper" for a stepmother, and had aspirations of living on the Hill in the Society for which she felt she had been born.  She was prone to "sudden bursts of hostility", was "red-haired, bright, head-strong and arrogant".  Emma, of course, was depicted as being "dominated by everyone around her."  The House was described by Jules Ryckebusch as having no gaslight even in an age when some electricty was available, "no running water, no toilets , no bathtubs, hand-pumps in the kitchen & barn", a water closet in the cellar he calls an "indoor outhouse", and there being a "big pot" in the cellar in which "dirty rags were thrown". He calls Lizzie a "petty thief" and says Andrew paid her shoplifting bills. The narration concludes that even though Andrew was wealthy, they lived in a house that was as "bleak and austere" as a story "from Dickens".

In the MURDER MOST FOUL segment, It is stated that the food provided that morning was the mutton which was in it's 3rd day of being offered and "the third meal in a row", of that meat.  Lizzie did not take her meals with the family and "would not honor them with her presence".  Lizzie apparently "disappeared" for an hour or so after her first appearance downstairs that Thursday morning.  "Abby was slain shortly after 9...Someone waited..."  Doors locked, Bridget washing windows...then there is paraphrased testimony in voice-overs of different characters:  Bridget, Churchill, and Dr. Bowen.  Bowen claims Andrew's position on the sofa is "perfectly natural" with no "sign of a struggle", and that Abby was "hacked at" as if her head was "a cake of ice."  Again, he found no signs of struggle.
Lizzie's "conflicting stories" as to her whereabouts is repeated, and that left suspicions.  Morse, as the "first suspect," made a trip to the post office "which almost cost him his life" by a "lynch mob'".
Some of the original letters in handwriting were then shown, with narrative as to their content.  The letter about photographing the retina of Abby's eyes to find the portrait image of the murderer imprinted there was shown and it was interesting to see.  The words were only 4 to a line;  it was almost like a column or a list, but the writing was completely legible.  (Transcribed on Forum in Privy, under Heading "Some Psychics In the Case" kk)

The next section was called SUSPICION and Ed. Thibault gave some information.  He recounted the story about Knowlton in the parlor at Second Street opening a book with a broken spine and it falling to the page on Prussic Acid.  The narrator said "Every member of the household had an iron-clad alibi, except Lizzie Borden";  that upon the "dining table" was "placed wicker, muslin cloth, and canvas" for the autopsies which began a little "after 3".
Jules Ryckebusch was amazed at either the insensitivity of the remaing family to sleep in the house overnight, or else, he implied, it was pretty suspicious, giving the reason that none were scared of an axe-wielding maniac, that Thursday overnight.
It was claimed (narrator?) that the trip to the cellar was accomplished by EMMA and Lizzie at midnight Thursday, and that they were never "questioned about the visit."  Lizzie is described as sobbing beside her father's casket on the day of the funeral in the sitting room and kissed his lips.  PORTER is quoted as writing that the heads were removed by Dr. Dolan that day at the cemetery, "and took possession of the ghastly objects."

The near final segment called JURY OF HER PEERS relates the courtroom experiences, again reads aloud some interesting letters (and shows them), and finishes that section with the surprise ending of a "Not Guilty" verdict.
Mr. Ryckebusch says Lizzie then "got rid of the house", got her house on the "Hill" and began to live a life that her neighbors considered "flamboyant."
Florence Brigham recounts looking out of her window at the age of "7 or 8 or 9" and seeing & hearing it said "Lizzie Borden is going for a ride".  She said all SHe saw was an "old lady dressed in black" going for a ride in her carriage.  She remembers thinking "Isn't that nice that someone can do that"...go for a ride...because "we never could do that, but isn't that nice", and she chuckled.

In EPILOGUE, again we are regaled with the rumor and gossip:  Lizzie never being accepted by the town...her shoplifting episode at Tilden-Thurber is implied as an arrest warrant that was never served, her carving on the mantlepiece of Maplecroft is seen as her "Confession".  In 1905, Emma moved out, gave herself an assumed name and the sister's "never spoke to each other again."
We end with the trite anecdote that mothers admonished their children not to speak to Lizzie as she "was not very nice to her parents."

Poem by Michael Wilkerson
Special Thanks to:
Barbara Ashton
Florence Brigham
Deborah Collins
Margot Cottrell
Jeanette D. Denning
Ronald E. Evans
Robert Flynn
Michael Martins
Martha McGinn
Kenneth Souza
Betty Ward

In Memory of Josephine McGinn

Add the neat music Kim described, the black and white photos of home and family and courtroom, and there you have the Discovery Channels offering on the topic of Lizzie Borden and the Borden Murders.

(Message last edited Sep-6th-02  6:28 PM.)


58. "Re: Discovery Channel Video"
Posted by diana on Sep-6th-02 at 7:04 PM
In response to Message #57.

Wow!  Terrific reportage, Kat.  I feel like I just watched the video myself!


59. "Re: Discovery Channel Video"
Posted by Kat on Sep-6th-02 at 7:31 PM
In response to Message #58.

Thanks Diana!  Nice to see you!

I was just telling Harry yesterday that I only see 1892 in black and white.  The video just reinforces that view.  Harry says that period was probably THE most colourful in American history...all those "flowers"...


60. "Re: Discovery Channel Video"
Posted by harry on Sep-6th-02 at 9:45 PM
In response to Message #57.

Terrific job Kat. You described it so well I actually remember seeing it. Not in 1996 though. 

I wonder how many different Borden videos are out there. I'll have to check Stefani's bibliography on the web site.


61. "Re: Discovery Channel Video"
Posted by bobcook848 on Sep-6th-02 at 10:40 PM
In response to Message #60.

Kat: do you ever, like get typers cramps?    That shore is a lot 'o typing missy.  As Arnie Johnson of Laugh-In fame would say in his German soldier skit..."Vellie Intaesting, but True"---sock it to me, sock it to me...

BC


62. "Re: Discovery Channel Video"
Posted by Susan on Sep-7th-02 at 4:53 PM
In response to Message #57.

Thanks, Kat!  I feel like I too watched this video!  Maybe it will be on again and I'll get to see it for real. 


63. "Re: Discovery Channel Video"
Posted by kimberly on Sep-7th-02 at 11:47 PM
In response to Message #57.

I miss a day & look what y'all are up to! Just off the top of
my head (bad choice of words!) the poem is, There is a house in Fall River that will cause you to shiver even though there is no chill in the air, and on warm August nights when you turn off the lights you
can see Her standing on the stairs, something something something,
don't get confused Lizbeth of Maplecroft, something something something. Is this a well know poem?

(Message last edited Sep-7th-02  11:50 PM.)


64. "Re: Discovery Channel Video"
Posted by Susan on Sep-8th-02 at 12:04 AM
In response to Message #63.

I've never heard it, its great!  Can you try to remember the rest of it?  I'd love to know the rest of it! 


65. "Re: Discovery Channel Video"
Posted by kimberly on Sep-8th-02 at 12:36 AM
In response to Message #64.

There is a house in Fall River that will cause you to shiver,
even though there is no chill in the air, and on warm August
nights when you turn off the lights you can see Her standing
on the stairs, she laughs as she glares into the guest room
upstairs and she quickly moves down to the parlor, and if you are very quiet a muffled sob fills the night, when she whispers 'You dissapointed me Father'. Without saying anymore, she glides out the door, to the barn and then up to the loft, she has sinkers to find, or is it a piece of iron this time? Don't get confused Lizbeth of Maplecroft. When next she appears, different clothes she wears, was it a bloody dress she was burying? But her arms are stained red with the blood that she has shed, as are her hands and the hatchet she is carrying.


66. "Re: Discovery Channel Video"
Posted by Kat on Sep-8th-02 at 1:34 AM
In response to Message #65.

Did you transcribe that from the VIdeO?
Or can you tell us where you got that?  I was going to go looking for that tonight and there you have it!  Thanks!


67. "Re: Discovery Channel Video"
Posted by kimberly on Sep-8th-02 at 11:19 AM
In response to Message #66.

I got it from the video, I had to keep rewinding it but I
eventually got it all down. My tape is getting a little messy, I've watched it for almost a decade now. I wish they would show it on TV again! I still love the music & sound effects they have, it was perfectly Victorian & so spooky, they also had wonderful background images. Like you were saying that you think of back then as being black & white & this one had that feeling & really sets the mood.


68. "Re: Discovery Channel Video"
Posted by kimberly on Sep-8th-02 at 12:40 PM
In response to Message #67.

Michael Wilkerson, who wrote the verse Lizbeth of Maplecroft was also the host ('The Country Lawyer') and he also wrote and/or produced the show itself.


69. "Re: Discovery Channel Video"
Posted by Kat on Sep-8th-02 at 3:18 PM
In response to Message #68.

So glad you told me that.
I really couldn't tell who was the host.
My VCR has to be hooked up & unhooked each time I want to switch T.V. to Video.  There's only one screw-type thing on the back & if I set it up any other way, I'd be watching T.V. through the VCR and I don't know where that remote is.

More than anyone wanted to know, but there was one who wanted to know...I had to 'splain all that to Stef last night.

Anyway, that's why I didn't set it all back up again to find out who the Country Lawyer was played by..so, Thanks.


70. "Re: Discovery Channel Video"
Posted by Susan on Sep-8th-02 at 3:46 PM
In response to Message #65.

Thanks, Kimberly!  Great poem, I love it! 


71. "Re: Discovery Channel Video"
Posted by kimberly on Sep-8th-02 at 4:23 PM
In response to Message #70.

I did have a video of a movie called Transgression starring
Kay Francis & Nance O'Neil, it was a talkie from 1930 or 1931.
It was just so interesting to see what a friend of Lizzie's looks
& talks & moves like. It came on AMC & I taped it (of course) that
was probably in the early 1990`s, it got taped over though. I remember
she had a deeper sounding voice & she was rather mannish, not that
little flippy-tailed thing in the picture of her in that Victorian dress.

(Message last edited Sep-8th-02  4:29 PM.)



 

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