1. "Lizzie, Where Is Bridget?"
Posted by Kat on Jul-9th-02 at 4:13 AM

Lizzie's Inquest testimony:

Q. Where was your father when you came down Thursday morning?
A. Sitting in the sitting room in his large chair, reading the Providence Journal.
Q. Where was your mother? Do you prefer me to call her Mrs. Borden?
A. I had as soon you called her mother. She was in the dining room with a feather duster dusting.
Q. When she dusted did she wear something over her head?
A. Sometimes when she swept, but not when dusting.
Q. Where was Maggie?
A. Just come in the back door with the long pole, brush, and put the brush on the handle, and getting her pail of water; she was going to wash the windows around the house. She said Mrs. Borden wanted her to.
Q. Did you get your breakfast that morning?
A. I did not eat any breakfast; I did not feel as though I wanted any.
Q. Did you get any breakfast that morning?
59 (16)
A. I don't know whether I ate half a banana; I don't think I did.
Q. You drank no tea or coffee that morning?
A. No sir.
Q. And ate no cookies?
A. I don't know whether I did or not. We had some molasses cookies; I don't know whether I ate any that morning or not.

--This would then be 9 a.m.  Bridget says she saw Mrs. Borden last in the D.R. dusting at 9, Lizzie arose about five to 9, and Lizzie see's Bridget get ready to wash windows.  Bridget says she got ready at 9:30.  We have just gained 1/2 hour, between Bridget's & Lizzie's stories.


Q. What was the next thing that happened after you got down?
A. Maggie went out of doors to wash the windows and father came out into the kitchen and said he did not know whether he would go down to the post office or not. And then I sprinkled some handkerchiefs to iron.
Q. Tell me again what time you came down stairs.
A. It was a little before nine, I should say about quarter; I don't know sure.
Q. Did your father go down town?
A. He went down later.
Q. What time did he start away?
A. I don't know.
Q. What were you doing when he started away?
A. I was in the dining room I think; yes, I had just commenced, I think, to iron.

--Lizzie says Bridget started the windows before Andrew even left.  At least she was starting to start the windows.  Andrew probably left around 9.  It is odd though that later Lizzie thinks he left around 10, which is impossible.  We must remember there is also a discrepancy as to when Lizzie says she started to iron.


Q. What explanation can you suggest as to the whereabouts of your mother from the time you saw her in the dining room, and she said her work in the spare room was all done, until 11 o'clock?
A. I don't know. I think she went back into the spare room, and whether she came back again or not I don't know; that has always been a mystery.

--This has always had a ring of confused truth to me.  BUT we must keep in mind *That Note*.  Could that note be real?


Q. Was it usual for your mother to go out?
A. Yes sir, she went out every morning nearly, and did the marketing.
Q. Was it usual for her to be gone away from dinner?
A. Yes sir, sometimes, not very often.
Q. How often, say?
A. O, I should not think more than---well I don't know, more than once in three months, perhaps.

--This is the new version of the Inquest testimony.


Q. A large portion of that time, the girl was out of doors?
A. I don't know where she was, I did not see her. I supposed she was out of doors, as she had the pail and brush.
Q. You knew she was washing windows?
A. She told me she was going to. I did not see her do it.
Q. For a large portion of the time you did not see the girl?
A. No sir.
Q. So far as you know you were alone in the lower part of the house, a large portion of the time, after your father went away, and before he came back?
68 (25)
A. My father did not go away I think until somewhere about 10, as near as I can remember; he was with me down stairs.
Q. A large portion of the time after your father went away, and before he came back, so far as you know, you were alone in the house?
A. Maggie had come in and gone up stairs.

--So far we have a Lizzie who cannot tell the time.  Her main mistakes are of the time Andrew left, and how long he was gone.  Her confusion as to when she was on the stairs she explains as having happened the day before, probably when Dr. Bowen came.

(Taking, and giving, a break here....kk)






(Message last edited Jul-9th-02  4:18 AM.)

So Lizzie testifies that Abby was alive when Bridget came in from the barn w/ her window washing tools. That blows E Radin's theory. (I think Radin's theory was to provide a counter argument for Lizzie's innocence; we all know that Lizzie said "it wasn't Bridget or anyone who worked for Father".)

I have to wonder if Lizzie is confused about the time or she is deliberately trying to place Andrew about the house until 10:00.  Abby was killed between 9:00 and 9:30, and its like Lizzie is trying to say that Andrew was still around when it happened.  Strange.

And though I don't think that Lizzie is trying to say that maybe Andrew did it, what a different story we would have today:

Andrew Borden took an ax

And he gave Abby 40 whacks

When Lizzie saw what he had done

She gave her father 41   

Which is pretty much the theory of the piece "The Case for Lizzie" in THE POCKET BOOK OF TRUE CRIME STORIES, actually.

How do we get hold of that piece you quoted, Bob?

Yes, I don't believe I've ever heard that theory?!  Interesting though, Andrew killed Abby for whatever reason and Lizzie killed Andrew for what he had done?  Wow! 

Lizzie's Inquest Testimony, con't...

Q. It had been left hooked by Bridget, if she was the last one in?
A. I suppose so; I don't know.
Q. Do you know when she did get through washing the outside?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you know she washed the windows inside?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you see her washing the windows inside?
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't know whether she washed the dining room and sitting room windows inside?
A. I did not see her.
Q. If she did would you not have seen her?
A. I don't know. She might be in one room and I in another.
Q. Do you think she might have gone to work and washed all the windows in the dining room and sitting room and you not know it?
A. I don't know, I am sure, whether I should or not. I might have seen her, and not know it.

--Lizzie tries to come up with an explanation for the inexplicable.  Her answer is similar in essence to the answer she gave when enquiry was made as why she did not see Abby after 9 A.m.  She sounds like she is trying to be accomodating--he demands an answer she does not HAVE.

Q. It is certain beyond reasonable doubt she was engaged in washing the windows in the dining room or sitting room when your father came home. Do you mean to say you know nothing of either of those operations?
A. I knew she washed the windows outside; that is, she told me so. She did not wash the windows in the kitchen, because I was in the kitchen most of the time.
Q. The dining room and sitting room, I said.
A. I don't know.
Q. It is reasonably certain she washed the windows in the dining room and sitting room inside while your father was out, and was engaged in that operation when your father came home; do you mean to say you know nothing of it?
A. I don't know whether she washed the windows in the sitting room and dining room or not.

--First Knowlton puts forcefully "It is certain beyond reasonable doubt" about the windows....
Maybe he hears himself and softens it later to say, "It is reasonably certain"...  Maybe HE is beginning to wonder about Bridget's veracity?


Q. You had not then bought your lines?
A. No sir, I was going out Thursday noon.

--Lizzie did tell Bridget she might go out later that day.  If noon meant dinnertime, maybe she planned on that exercise to keep her away from table that day, since she preferred not to eat with the elders.


Q. Who did you send Maggie for?
A. Dr. Bowen. She came back and said Dr. Bowen was not there.
Q. What did you tell Maggie?
A. I told her he was hurt.
Q. When you first told her?
A. I says "Go for Dr. Bowen as soon as you can, I think father is hurt."
Q. Did you then know that he was dead?
A. No, sir.
Q. You saw him?
A. Yes sir.
79 (36)
Q. You went into the room?
A. No sir.
Q. Looked in at the door?
A. I opened the door and rushed back.
Q. Saw his face?
A. No, I did not see his face, because he was all covered with blood.

--As has been stated by our member, Lizzie says she believed Andrew to be HURT and in need of a Doctor.


Q. What made you go into the sitting room?
A. Because I wanted to ask him a question.
Q. What question?
A. Whether there was any mail for me.
Q. Did you not ask him that question in the dining room?
A. No sir, I think not.
Q. Was he not in the dining room sitting down?
A. I don't remember his being in the dining room sitting down.
Q. At that time was not Maggie washing the windows in the sitting room?
A. I thought I asked him for the mail in the sitting room; I am not sure.
Q. Was not the reason he went in the dining room because she was in the sitting room washing windows?
A. I don't know.

--It seems that where her answer contradicts Bridget's statement she is left only with an "i don't know."  She isn't fabricating an answer to dove-tail with Bridget's assertions...she may not know WHY there is a discrepancy.

[break time--recess]

Q. Did he not go up stairs to his own room before he sat down in the sitting room?
A. I did not see him go.
Q. He had the key to his room down there?
A. I don't know whether he had it; it was kept on the shelf.
Q. Don't you remember he took the key and went into his own room and then came back?
85 (42)
A. No, sir.
Q. You don't remember anything of that kind?
A. No, sir; I do not think he did go up stairs either.
Q. You will swear he did not?
A. I did not see him.
Q. You swear you did not see him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were either in the kitchen or sitting room all the time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. He could not have gone up without he had gone through the kitchen?
A. No, sir.

--This is the section referred to earlier.  This must have some meaning we have yet to comprehend.  This statement seems important.  Plus it is in total disagreement with Bridget's statement.  How can this be reconciled?

.............
--This section does not include Bridget, but does give evidence that Andrew had taken medicine...home remedy?  What does castor oil & Garfield tea do?

Q. Was he then under medical treatment?
A. No, sir.
Q. The doctor had not given him any medicine that you know of?
A. No, sir; he took some medicine; it was not doctor's medicine; it was what we gave him.
Q. What was it?
A. We gave him castor oil first and then Garfield tea.
Q. When was that?
A. He took the castor oil some time Wednesday. I think some time Wednesday noon, and I think the tea Wednesday night; Mrs. Borden gave it to him. She went over to see the doctor.
.................


the end...kk

Where was Bridget all this time?
She was seen at (possibly) 9:30 by Mrs. Kelly's girl at the Kelly fence.  (We don't know that that time is correct anymore).
She was seen at 10 throwing water on one window by Mrs. Churchill.
She was seen about 10:30 standing in front of the house holding her washing implements by Pettee.
Bridget herself says she saw no one, yet there were several people put on as witnesses who were on the street that morning and also never said they saw HER.
Lizzie, where was Bridget?

Here ya' go, Kat!  An ad for Garfield's tea from the 1890's, ewww!!!



Apparently, Castor Oil was used for constipation also and for heartburn.  Found a site for you to go and read all you ever wanted to know about Castor Oil!

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/g2603/0002/2603000253/p1/article.jhtml

Boy, YOU'RE up & Runnin' after being Sick!

Better now?

Take some tea?

Not THAT tea...THIS tea....

Thanks for the info.

Why would ANDREW take something for constipation when he had food poisoning?????

Maybe the Castor Oil was to coat his insides after all that vomiting, I'm sure his esophagus was raw.  The Garfield tea was possibly for the sick headache he had?  I can't imagine after all that vomiting that Andrew was constipated?  Maybe both were used as purgatives to totally empty his digestive tract to clear out what was making him sick in the first place?  The cholera morbus, or summer complaint. 

I wonder how fast that would work?

He took all that Wednesday...then he wouldn't want to be running around with Morse to Swansea...and Thursday he may have needed to stay close to a water closet?  I'm surprised he ever left the house Thursday.  I wonder if he was dehydrated by then?

If Andrew was dehydrated, wouldn't that show up in the autopsy report?  I remember the last time I was in the hospital, the nurses came in on a regular basis and pinched my skin on my arm.  Apparently, if they pinch and it stays up when they let go, you're dehydrated.

I imagine you're right on with the idea that Andrew wanted to be close to the watercloset if he was taking two different laxatives.  Maybe on the murder morning when he went to empty his slop pail outside, it was actually in the privy behind the barn.  Maybe he also made a pit stop there? 

You know, I was just thinking about this last night...

That when Mrs. Kelly says she saw Andrew come around the side of the house to the front door she got the impression...And Gave US the impression...that he had been to the screen door first.
But, I was remembering his possible need for a Privy Thursday, and we have been told by Bridget that Andrew used the one in the barn--that maybe the second he returned he went TO ThE PrIVY in the barn, THEN came into the house by the front way.
WHY he would skip the screen door approach gave me pause, because it would not only be Closer to enter but have access to the sink to wash his hands.
So I was back where I started from, other than thinking maybe he still DID use the privy due to the reaction to the medicines he had taken....Thus our timing would be off, again.  But it would eliminate (?) his need to go upstairs, which Lizzie said he did not.  (So maybe there's our *timing* back again).

I don't know, but, perhaps Andrew did go upstairs for the sole purpose of washing his hands at his washstand?  Yes, I realize that there was a sink with running water right in the sinkroom that he washed his teeth in, but, maybe this was a personal habit?

Or, I never thought of this before, but, Andrew was taking 2 different laxatives, perhaps he had soiled himself and needed to change his underwear and get cleaned up, upstairs? 

I was trying to think of a reason for Andrew to be seen coming from around the side of the house by Mrs. Kelly, that did not include his failure to be received at the screen door.

  That necessitated Andrew's trip to "the Necessary."

Maybe, after proclaiming the screen door to always be locked *forthwith!* the family balked at the need to be around at his beck and call not knowing when exactly he would return each day.

So the women all gang up and say, "OK, we'll be happy to keep the screen door hooked but YOU gotta find your Own Way In!"  "OH, and by the way, it's not couth to yell out at the screen door, thank you daddy".

So from then on until Thursday, Andrew's habit was then to use the front door.  (it would be cool if someone had asked Mrs. Kelly this simple question..."did you see him enter at the front, usually?")

The Not unlocking of all the bolts etc. on the front door would still be a problem for him to enter w/o help...but ..it would serve to notify the inmates that he had arrived...
If he had used the necessary, and did not go upstairs the murder could happen almost immediatly, giving much more time to hide the evidence.  (Remember, he didn't EMPTY his POCKETS--that's the kicker for Me)

This topic has less than an hour to live...until I post something here...

How about:

"Are you guys going to let me get away with this?"

Perhaps that is why Lizzie laughed on the stairs, not because Bridget had to fumble with all three locks and swore.  But, that Andrew, lord and master, could not get into the house because Lizzie didn't unlock the doors that morning. Maybe she didn't unlock them just to thwart Andrew and thats what was so amusing to her?

But, that all three locks were found locked again after the murder is odd.  Maybe so no one would get in while Andrew was killed?

Who'd be trying to get in at the front door after Andrew is killed?

Emma is the only one left that I can think of who may have had a key.

How do we know all the locks were locked when the alarm was raised?....do we know that?

I think the concensus (sp) is that Andrew DID go upstairs and that the majority here believe Bridget, not Lizzie.  Well, that's Ok, cause I was just in a "mode" of trying to believe everything Lizzie said, but it didn't last long...

But I would like to know from the male membership:
When you get home after business, do you get comfortable immediately, empty your pockets, change your shoes, use the necessary?

Bridget was never asked and never told on the stand as far as I can tell if she locked all the locks again after she let in Andrew or if he did it himself.  All the people associated with the murder who came into the house, did so, by the side entrance.

Found this in Trial Volume 1, Page 434/i455  Officer Allen is on the stand.

Q. Then where did you go as you went through the sitting room?
A. I went to the front door, front hall.

Q. Describe exactly what you did at the front hall.
Page 434/i455
A. I looked at the door and the door was locked with a night lock and also with a bolt, bolted.

Q. In any other way, did you notice.
A. No, sir.  There was a lock under the knob, but I don't know whether that was locked or not.

Q. But the night lock was locked?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the bolt was locked?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you interfere with the door at all?
A. No, sir.

Now by this time we had Alice Russell and Mrs. Churchill in the house.  Mr. Sawyer is at the side door.  That leaves Dr. Bowen who is never asked and doesn't state about touching the front door locks.  So, why was the door all locked up as if for the night when is only mid-morning? 

In answer to your question of what we males do when we get home.....  I always say "Hi, Honey.  I'm home"  And then, depending on if I was not feeling well, I would say something to that effect to my wife.  In other words, the first person I would speak to or look for would be my wife.  What, if anything, does that tell you about Andy Borden?

I just read last night (Lincoln?) that in the author's opinion Andy first asked about Abby and that was the low talk Lizzie and he had in the dining room (?), that Bridget couldn't hear.  And that the result of that talk was Lizzie saying Abby had gone out because of a note.
Then the author surmised that HE DId not believe her, and Went Upstairs into his room, after all, looking for Abby.

Interesting...

So do you change your clothes?
I change mine the minute I get home.
My dad used to empty his pockets, use the necessary, and get comfortable.

Susan, that was cool you found the locked-front-door testimony.  Now we know it is true can we figure out why it was RE-locked....

Lets see...It's Lizzie job to lock the door.  It seems as if Lizzie let in Andrew she might automatically relock all the locks, as she is used to doing that.
If Bridget closed the door, I can't think of a reason for her to lock it up again, unless she knew what was about to happen. 
If an intruder came in that way, LUNDY says they would leave an exit route CLEAR and NOT lock themselves into the house...

And besides which...who could believe all that rubbish about the laughter upstairs anyways...

BC

Well, if it was Abby's normal routine to fuss and fret over Andrew when he walked through the door or at least come in to say "hello" to him, I should think Andrew would ask after Abby's wearabouts.

My experience with my husband was that he would come home from work, put down his car keys where he was sure he would not find them the next day and I would have to find them for him.  He would empty his pockets of money and count his tips(he was a bartender) and put an amount away in an envelope to be deposited at the bank the next day.  Shoes would come off, the bathroom used and then he would grab something cold to drink from the fridge.  Oh, and of course, the TV would go on!  Had it been an era before TV, I'm sure he would have buried his head in a magazine or newspaper.

Thanks, Kat, I tried.  All my books are packed at the moment in preparation of my move, so, I can't search any of them right now!  I would think that after Bridget let Andrew in, she probably would have at least locked one lock, afterall, it was still midmorning.  And even if she was preparing to kill Andrew, why would she lock up the front door, unless it was in regards to Uncle John.  Knowing that he was due back for dinner.  Or, Lizzie could have done it also with the same knowledge.  And that totally makes sense, if it was an outsider, why would they block a potential exit unless all was planned with Lizzie's knowing in advance. 

I'm chuckling.
Partly because I am so happy
and hope you have a happy move!

The other reason is because ALL MY BOOKS are spread out all over my living room...I don't know how it happens!  I put them all away weekly yet here they are all out again!

I loved your answer about when "HE" comes home.  That's exactly what I pictured: a combination of Joe's answer and what you described!   THANKS.

So now we do have Andrew maybe visiting the safe!

  I too suffer that when my books are not packed, they are spread out on my living room table, it looks like Hurricane Susan struck! 

Oh, forgot to mention, when I was home, I was paged, "Hi Sue, I'm home!"  And I was found wherever I was at.

Yes, I could picture Andrew going to his safe, but, why would he still have such a huge amount of cash on his person?  Or, do you think he took it out of the safe for some reason? 

PRELIMINARY, Winwood,  pg. 386

Q.  (Mr. Knowlton)  What is your name?
A.  James Winwood.
Q.  You are an undertaker?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Did you have something to do with the bodies of Andrew J. Borden and Mrs. Borden?
A.  I had charge of them, yes sir.
Q.  Were you the one who removed the effects from the body?
A.  I took the things out of Andrew J. Borden's clothes.
Q.  Did you give whatever you took to Dr. Dolan?
A.  I did.
Q.  Without bothering to produce them, will you kindly tell me what they were, in the shape of valuables?
A.  I think there was $78. in bills in the pocket book.
Q.  In a pocket book?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  What pocket was that pocket book in?
A.  In the inside pocket in the coat, I should think.
Q.  In the coat pocket?
A.  Yes Sir, inside pocket, inside the coat.
Q.  Not inside the vest. What else in the shape of valuables?
A.  In that pocket there was some minor papers, which we did not examine into, just opened them, and saw there was no more money in there, or notes. That is all we examined for.
Q.  There was a watch and chain?
A.  Yes Sir, in his vest.
Q.  Anything else?
A.  In his pants pockets some loose change, two or three dollars in silver.
Q.  What size bills were these?
A.  I think about $5.
Q.  All in bills?
A. Yes Sir.
Q.  Whatever you took, you turned over to Dr. Dolan, the Medical Examiner?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Did you find anything valuable in her pockets?
A.  I did not have anything to do with her pocket at all.
(Some things are brought in wrapped in a handkerchief.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION.
Q.  (Mr. Jennings) Were these keys all upon the ring?
A.  I do not remember; I should think they were; but I would not be positive about it.
Q.  Did you not find either of the keys loose in his pocket?
A.  I could not say; I do not recollect.

--So Andrew comes home, goes up stairs for a couple of minutes, comes back down and settles on the lounge Still dressed, still has shoes, still has on his watch, money in his pockets and keys and minor papers.  His vest is STILL buttoned...not like a man at leisure in his home, At All.(?)

It sounds as if he was waiting to do business with someone.  And then this thought just popped into my head, after dinner(lunch), didn't Andrew usually go back downtown to the banks and all, or was that the extent of his workday, from 9 to 11?  I recall reading or seeing something about Andrew being partially retired at this point. 

Didn't Andy ask about Abby, and was told "she had gone out". Andy asked no questions, as if he expected or knew about it.

I think the note was a means to get Abby out of the house so Andy could talk family business with the visitor w/o interruptions.

It wasn't just Lizzie and Emma who were anxious to preserve the family fortune.

I think looking at Lincoln the other night (in paperback, pg.97+), she surmised that Andrew did not believe Lizzie when she told him (LOW or Slow) Abby had gone out...and went to look for her.

We can't know because we're relying now on Bridget & Lizzie at this point.

I was just comparing the two, Lizzie's Inquest and Bridget's Trial testimony.  The contradictions are just glaring, but, either story does absolutely nothing to help or hinder.  Whether Andrew went to his room or not doesn't seem to matter much in the scheme of things.  And whether Lizzie spoke to her father in the dining room or sitting room really doesn't change the fact that he would be killed shortly. 

I personally have to go with Bridget's testimony, she seems to be the more reliable of the two. 

Well, at least I can say I tried...to believe Lizzie's Inquest testimony.  I think I put you all through it for... what?  About a week?
You all were a help...humoring me...
It just wasn't meant to be.
BUT, that's not to say I totally believe Bridget....

I wholeheartedly agree with you there, Kat.  What I was trying to point out was whether Lizzie or Bridget is lying, it doesn't amount to much.  If Andrew did go up to his room and put or took money out of the safe, he still had money on him after his death. 

Why would Bridget lie about that?  According to her, Lizzie was still in the house when Andrew went upstairs.  Bridget could have lied about letting Andrew in if she wanted to tell a whopper, who would contradict her?  Yet, she told that she let him in, had trouble with the locks and swore when she couldn't open the door fast enough.  Thats why I tend to believe more of what she says than Lizzie. 

Getting back to Susan's question as to whether Andrew might go out in the afternoon. I began wondering. When Bridget testifies at trial that Lizzie says: "If you go out [presumably to the sale at Sargent's], be sure to lock the door, for Mrs. Borden has gone out on a sick call, and I might go out, too..."  -- is the implication that Andrew will also be out in the afternoon? [He is at home when she says that.] And that Abby may not come home for the noon meal, but instead stay with her 'sick friend' for a large part of the day? 

Good!!!  Thank you, Diana.  I'm not the only one that notices these odd little bits of things here and there!  I have wondered about those very words of Lizzie's, she makes it sound as if Andrew will be out, but, was that the norm for him to leave after lunch?  I would love to have this confirmed, I don't believe that it was asked of anyone if Andrew was due back downtown.

Or, was a simple slip-up on Lizzie's part, knowing that Andrew would be dead and wouldn't be up and about to watch the unlocked doors? 

For what its worth this late in the game, found this in the Witness 1, page 38, Joseph Hyde.  He talked to Bridget on the day of the murders and asked what had happened from the morning until Andrew came home:

After washing the windows, she came in and let Mr. Borden in by the front door.  Then I asked her if she fastened the door.  She said she did not think she did; that she left that for Mr. Borden to do.

But, Bridget never does recall if Andrew did relock all the locks on the front door or not.  Oh well, its something.