1. "Where Was Lizzie When?"
Posted by Kat on Sep-24th-02 at 11:12 PM

Reading the Inquest again, Lizzie's testimony.  I was thinking about that time frame she gives herself, when answering "Where were you, Lizzie?"

It's not a very good story is it?  I mean, if she could make up anything, why would/did she make up THAT?

She goes outside about 5 minutes after Andrew gets home.  She first goes under the pear tree and picks up several pears (at least 3), and then stands looking around out there in the back yard, for "four or five minutes."

Instead of eating the pears there, she goes into the barn, up into the loft and eats the pears standing at the very window which overlooks the side door to the house.

So far, she is pretty much in the way of an outsider hanging around waiting for safe entry to kill Andrew, or safe exit, whichever.

This stuff takes up about 10 minutes, so there is only 10 minutes left for someone to slip in or out of the house.  Less, if we count how long she is in line of sight of the side door as she mosey's on back to the house.

So is it reasonable (I liked that word, Susan!), that someone escaped in just those few minutes that she took looking in the box for lead?  The universe does not usually run on such a timetable...or maybe it does?

I can only see this as reasonable if the person escaped out the front.
If so, that side screen door which is brought up like 100 times in all the hearings etc., is a decoy, a red herring..a non-starter.

Would it be reasonable to suppose that Bridget was in on it to lock the front door after the killer left and scurried back upstairs before Lizzie came back into the house?  That is, without Lizzie's knowledge of the murders. 

The unreasonable part of the barn visit is that Bridget (yea, right) testifies that Lizzie hadn't been out to the barn in a while:

Prelim. p.33
Q.  Since the horse left off being kept there, have you ever seen Lizzie go to the barn?
A.  No Sir, not that I remember.

So how could Bridget know she'd be out there?
Would she say to her, "Maggie, I'll be out in the barn if you want me?"
All Bridget says up until this point is that Lizzie told her she may go out later...(24)
"If you go out, be sure and lock the door, because I may be out."
-Is this statement enough to build a plan on?
Any opinions here welcome...

Bridget could have been listening and watching like a hawk!  She admitted that if the screen door was closed too hard, she heard it in her room.  Maybe if it even closed softly she could still hear a thud and know that someone left the house.  Looks out her bedroom window, sees Lizzie in the yard doing her thing and takes her chance.  If Lizzie came in and saw her downstairs she could easily say she just wanted a glass of milk or something.  Maybe she even hooked the screen door, did the deed, unhooked the door, pushed it open so that it would bang and ran like hell upstairs before Lizzie came in.  Just one crazy scenario. 

"Crazy Senarios" are welcome.  It may be a crazy scenario after all, this solution we seek.

The time-table Lizzie leaves tho, is about 10 minutes out of any 24 hours out of any day of any week of any month etc.

Yes, this is true, sometimes truth is stranger than fiction!  Lizzie doesn't leave us much to work with and thats her story and shes sticking to it! 

NO. She was never suspected, and Lizzie said it wasn't her or Andy's men. And no one can prove otherwise.

David Kent's "40 Whacks" has a timetable to the second of his attempts to recreate her movements. He says she did not have enough time to be up in the barn. He also says nobody kept stopwatches to time the event.
I believe her first story is true, then modified to place her farther away from the back door and seeing who left. Because if Willy knew she was a witness, she might have ended up like Bertha Manchester.
LAB had a moral dilemma: follow Andy's command to never tell about Willy, or tell all and create an everlasting scandal. "How many other 'cousins' do you have" they said cattily.

I believe that Bridget's morning window washing task was to:
1) shut the windows som nobody could hear loud talk;
2) tire her out so she would go to her room, two floors up and in the back of the house.

Bridget's task, as assigned by Abby?

AR Brown suggests the order came from Andy to prepare for his meeting.
THAT seems like the most reasonable answer. Unless it was the weekly practice for it to be done on even a hot humid morning.

Or was it made up by Lizzie, and agreed to by Bridget so she would collect the big bucks and return to Ireland?
Is there any documentary proof that Bridget testified for money? B's outfit at the trial made tongues wag: she was well-dressed for a servant! But maybe her govt. job paid a lot more than Miser Andy?

If the front door is the key and the murderer escaped out of it and it was found locked with three locks when the police checked it then that would mean that either Lizzie or Bridget was involved in a conspiracy with another party because the front door only locked from the inside.  Same for the cellar door.  The only door which had a hook lock and which people came and went from frequently during the day was the side screen door.  If Lizzie was out of the house in the yard and barn she left the screen door open as Bridget had already gone upstairs and wasn't aware of her movements.  So going on the testimony that was the most likely escape route for an intruder.  If a conspirator was involved then it's another story.  I would think that a murderer wouldn't chose to leave by the front door because it is a place where passers by would notice and remember seeing someone.
An intruder didn't leave by the front door because all the locks were in place after the murders, perhaps I am wrong here?

I don't have a problem with Lizzie saying she went into the loft to search for a piece of iron for sinkers as she did have a trip planned to Marion to go fishing that Monday and she described and the police found the basket with the iron and other items in it that verified her story as it being where she said it was.  I am not sure that even if she was at the loft window she was engaged in peering out of it while she ate a pear.

She supposedly ate 3 pears up there.  She could have eaten them in the fresh open air, where food tates better...either place tho...in front of the barn window looking west, or out in the yaawd, both would put her in sight of the side door for quite a chunk of time...and time is at a premium.
The front door escape route (or a window, as the psychic said) would be my way of giving Lizzie the only chance she has of being innocently believable...disregarding the impression she left with witnesses that she was not only not bloody, but not dirty...her hands were white.
If she had eaten sticky pears in a dusty dirty barn abnd then tried to turn over a pile of lumber to get at the box on the bench, her hands if not her clothes would be dirty.  She never says she washed.  She was questioned very closely, hammered at, at times, but she never said that...

Pardon..edit here..
Do we know the front door was found locked with 3 locks when Bowen or police arrived?

(Message last edited Sep-26th-02  6:29 PM.)

Kat, I believe its in Officer Allen's testimony that when he showed up, at least 2 of the locks on the front door were locked.  Bridget says she didn't touch the door after Andrew came in and did not state whether she saw him lock the door or not.  So, either Andrew locked it, Lizzie, or the killer it sounds like. 

I think Bridget said when asked if she re-locked the front door after Andrew came in that she didn't but Andrew took care of it.

When one of the medical examiners was asked about the skirt dress Lizzie gave the police, he said he found two swooshes or bloches of something, one on the pocket, but they weren't blood but he didn't pursue it to find out what the markings consisted of. Perhaps she wiped her hands on her dress after being in the barn eating pears.  Yet again, if this was not the dress she wore that a.m. then that explanation doesn't work. She didn't have time to change her dress into the light blue one some people identified her in because it was just after that she found Andrew's body.  If she, however, went out earlier than she said and got her dress dirty she could have changed into the light blue one and then not said she did, making both statements true, she was wearning both dresses that a.m. But either way it would have involved a lie because she said she only had one dress on. The dress is a real stickler.

My opinion, based on practical experience, logic, etc. is this:
When everyone was saying goodbye to Uncle John at the back door, Nemesis went in the unlocked (by Andy) front door.
After Nemesis finished his interview w/ Andy, he walked out the back door. Because of Ellan Eagan's story, and, it was the quickest (and least observed?) route to Hiram's stable.

This seems to be the most practical solution to me.

David Kent's "40 Whacks" has a timetable from his experiments. He also says nobody can be sure down to the minute when things happened.

I use "Nemesis" (as per Masterton) to refer to the killer. This avoids any question of identity.

(Message last edited Sep-28th-02  11:21 AM.)

Based on your practical and logical experience, Rays, you say Nemesis the killer got in at the front door early on, around 9 am because Andrew left the door open. Are you saying Andrew left it open FOR the killer to get in?  That doesn't seem like something he would do because if he was intending to meet with someone that a.m. and left the door open for them, why didn't he stick around and meet with them instead of taking off for downtown? I don't see why Andrew would intentionally or unintentionally leave the front door open. Who re-locked the front door, because Andrew had to have to have Bridget open it for him later?  And who re-locked it again because Officer Allen found it locked again later?

I don't remember hearing if the police looked for the leftovers
of the pears she had ate, they would have probably been
tossed out the barn window or just left up there. I doubt she
would have bothered to carry them inside to the trash can.

Too many questions!
Because that was a convenient time (less traffic).
To quietly step upstairs to await for Andy's return w/ the "white box". Due to the delay from Wed afternoon.

The murder was an accident; only a meeting was planned.

Yes, I'm rationalizing here. But this is what seems rational to me.

*Everyone* was not in the kitchen saying goodbye to Morse.
Morse says Abby went into the front entry and he never saw her again, after 8:30 a.m.
Also, Lizzie was not in the kitchen to say goodbye.
To be precise, BRidget wasn't in the kitchen to say goodbye, either...she was supposedly just going about her work.

So the only one to say goodbye was Andrew.
Why didn't Morse WAIT 15 minutes to leave WITH Andrew?

He wasn't on any timetable, that he's admitted to...

--also, ckecked the trial and the assertion is correct that Allen found 2 of the locks on the front door in use when he checked that morning--Trial, pg.434:  ..."locked with a night lock, and also with a bolt, bolted..."

I have wondered the same thing. The police investigation in this case was less than sparkling.  Robinson in his closing to the jury said, "And you do not get the greatest ability in the world inside a policeman's coat," followed up with another compliment, "You must not be surprised if they fail even of the standard they set up for everyone else."  The officers did pitch the hay about from one side of the loft to the other looking for a man or weapon hiding in it. Perhaps if Lizzie did eat a pear or two up in the loft she threw the cores into the hay and a barn rat trotted off with it before the police got there.  But to give the police some credit I doubt if they or anyone else was much aware that Thursday when they pitched the hay to and fro that pears were evidence in the case.

I covered this two years ago on the other board. My reconstruction of the events follow. I wasn't there; it is my considered opinion.

Uncle John arrived w/o baggage because he never expected to spend the night. He was to intercede for Nemesis, but was delayed by Abby's interference. (When a man gets old, often his younger wife starts to wear the pants.) So they cooked up a scheme to get Abby out of the house the next morning. Lizzie was out of the loop.

The front door was left unlocked; when Uncle John said goodby, Nemesis went in the front door, up the stairs to the guest bedroom to await the meeting. Unfortunately, Abby unexpectedly went there, found him, mouthed off, and turned her back on this violent madman. Then Nemesis waited for the meeting. Nemesis was told to relock the front door; unfamiliar with the family habits, he locked all 3 locks. This caused the problem for Bridget when opening the door. "Oh Pshiwt"! Lizzie laughed when going down the stairs; she later said she was in the kitchen to remove herself as a witness. (If she was in the kitchen she would have heard Andy at the back screen door.)

Andy went on his normal morning rounds, got that "white box" from his bank, then cut short his day to return for the meeting. Bridget was told to wash the windows so they would be closed to shut out any shouting. Then very tired, it was suggested she go out shopping, or to take a rest. She did so.

Then Lizzie went out back to give Andy the privacy he wanted. She ate the pears, and saw Nemesis leave by the back door. Maybe he said something like "I won't be back again". Lizzie then went back in and found Andy's body. Her story became "I was up in the barn" so as to say she wasn't a witness; else another Bertha Manchester(?).

The problem was that it was the "crime of a madman", but unbelievable that Lizzie did it. I think Andy told her "never tell about Willy"; because a mentally damaged offspring is suggestive of parental disease. And Uncle John, who arranged the meeting, didn't want to be a suspect ("accessory before the fact").

I really don't like having to type these long msgs.
If Willy's mother also had a problem, what does it say about Andy's taking advantage of her?

I wasn't there, but my own and family practice was to throw fruit cores into the tall grass in the back of the lot. Easier than putting them "below the barn".

This part of Officer Allen's trial testimony has always puzzled me.  What does he mean here? 

Q.  After you had examined this front door what did you (do)?
A.  I looked behind the door to see if any one was standing there ....

If the door was locked when he checked the locks (and he indicates in his testimony that he looked at the door and "didn't interfere with it") -- which I took to mean that he didn't touch it -- where was "behind the door"?

This looks very odd when I read it over prior to posting, but hopefully you'll know what I mean. 

From Officer Allen's cryptic statement, I am left with the impression that he either looked behind the closet door to see if anyone was hiding there, or, he looked out one of the small windows alongside the front door to see if anyone was standing there outside. 

Sorry, didn't mean to post that so small, here is a bigger version.

I had made a note to myself of that same confusing questioning and wondered if anyone else noticed it.  It reminded me of the Inquest testimony and questioning of Dr. Bowen.(pg.123-4), where he is asked specifically about the front door.  Apparently if wide open, someone could hide behind it at the stair landing...it seemed to fit this instance you have brought up, but am not sure where they were going with this line of investigation.  (It SEEmed as if someone may have had a theory of a hidden person BEHIND the front door...but nothing seems to come of it...)

Q.  Were you the first one to see Mrs. Borden?
A.  No Sir, I was not. I was sent up by Mrs. Churchill. Mrs. Churchill says "we have found Mrs. Borden". I says "where is she"? "She is up stairs, go right up."
Q.  Did you [n]otice then whether the front door was shut or not?
A.  If it had been open I think I should have known it.
Q.  You did not attempt to go in or out the front door?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  You did not notice whether the front door was open or not?
A.  If it had been open, I think I should have noticed it, I dont think it was open.
-------------------
Q.  If they are going up stairs, does not that front door, if it is open, does it not shut off the stairs? You cannot go up the stairs when the door is open, you have to shut the door to get up, the hall is so narrow, is not that so?
A.  Perhaps so.
Q.  Dont it open back against the stairs?
A.  Perhaps it does. I should rather think it did.
Q.  At any rate you did not have to get rid of the front door to get up stairs?
A.  No Sir. If the door had been open, I should have seen it.
Q.  Your impression is that the door was shut?
A.  Yes, a very decided impression that the door was shut.

Sorry, I don't think I was on the other board two years ago so missed your piece. It was really kind and sporting of you to restate such a message which took you a long time to write. It was very clear and interesting. It all seems like it could be a probably senario except that if it was Willy, and he was just supposed to be meeting with Andrew, why did he bring a hatchet with him. Although in I think one newspaper account of the day it was suggested that Bridget said she sa a hatchet under the sofa that a.m. (and I don't believe that), even that wouldn't explain the death of Abby so far away from the sofa.  This would mean that Willy brought the hatchet with him, and in that case, he wasn't just going to talk with Andrew. And if he was that far off his rocker Uncle John and the rest of the conspirators would have known it was likely for a murder to happen. So, there are missing pieces in your scenario for me. 

As for your question about Andrew possibly taking advantage of the mother of Willy who you suggest might have been less than mentally alert, it happens every day.

Thanks Susan, that's the picture I was remembering.  But I'd forgotten about the windows at the side.  As you say, his statement really is cryptic.  If he looked out the window, why not: "I looked through the glass to see if someone was outside the door"?  And, if he opened the closet, why not say that.  
But I think you're right.  He probably meant he performed one or both of the above actions and his testimony just doesn't make it clear.

This Q&A is quoted out of context. What was said before, or after?

AR Brown says Wm S Borden was a professional knacker or butcher; it was the tools of his trade. Some men, even today, always carry a penknife with them. Ever been in a rural area and see how many men carry their hunting knife (unconcealed) with them?

I do NOT believe the murder was planned; else Lizzie would have gone away for an alibi. Uncle John's first (reported) words were "Good God, how did this happen?"

I think the FR police did as good a job as was possible under the conditions. Note that a detective is responsible for solving crimes where there are no witnesses, not a uniformed officer.

I'm also sure that many men also carried a pistol with them in those times. (See M Bellesiles' "Arming America" for documentary proof.) But that does not mean there were many shootings every day!
Most people get their history from movies that revise history.

So, are you saying that Willy had, in addition to his hatchet, (which most butchers I would suspect would leave in the shop when making a visit to a house parlour in the city), a pistol and a hunting knife with him because that is what men of the day used for normal daily self-protection?  Self-protection from poor feeble old Andrew? Then Willy could also have had about his person on the fateful morning a rope, rifle, sword, candlestick and jagged piece of broken glass, and maybe a few doses of prussic acid he had stopped at Smith's for before arriving at his appointment.

So, are you saying that Willy had, in addition to his hatchet, (which most butchers I would suspect would leave in the shop when making a visit to a house parlour in the city), a pistol and a hunting knife with him because that is what men of the day used for normal daily self-protection?  Self-protection from poor feeble old Andrew? Then Willy could also have had about his person on the fateful morning a rope, rifle, sword, candlestick and jagged piece of broken glass, and maybe a few doses of prussic acid he had stopped at Smith's for before arriving at his appointment.

Was that a straight and honest question? If so, just read or re-read A R Brown's book for the details in this case. His 340+ page book was shortened from 1180 pages, so there are some places where he had to jump to the conclusion.

Brown's book says Wm S Borden always carried his hatchet with him in a sack under his arm. Plus probably other things as well. Those around in those times could say.

I hope this is the answer you were looking for. I once read that any  carpenter in those days always carried a hatchet and knife with him. For post and beam construction (now pretty much obsolete, except for the Amish?). A hatchet could be used as a plane or spokeshave, etc.

I think Lizzie was NOT in the kitchen when Andy arrived home bacause she would have heard him at the screen door. Andy saw Bridget washing windows when he arrived home, so he went to the front door.

The question in these murders was why the 90 minute time difference. Because Nemesis was waiting for Andy's return w/ the white box.

E Radin's book pointed to Bridget as the murderess, saying Abby could have been killed earlier than 9:30. I don't know how strong this argument is; given Andy's presence in the home (?). Unless he was getting deaf?

Yes, the real answer as to why Willy ALWAYS carried a hatchet with him must be in the pages of the Brown manuscript that never made it to the printers.  If, however, the killer was not Willy, I don't think the answer to why the murderer carried a hatchet into the Borden home was one of self-protection.  I would suspect it was because it was intended for use and not on wood. I also don't discount Brown, it is possible his theory is correct.

You said Andrew saw Bridget washing windows when he got home and that is why he went around the front to be let in. Bridget was inside at the time in the sitting room doing a window when Andrew came back and went to the front door.  Did you think Andrew walked all the way around the house from the back steps where he was trying to get in the screen door south to the sitting room side where Bridget was engaged in washing the window at that time, and then around to the front door? Because unless he did that how could he have seen Bridget at the windows inside.  He couldn't have seen all the way across the dining room into the sitting room from outside, the windows were too high. And I think Mrs. Kelly said she saw Andrew coming from the north side of the house up to the front steps when she saw him, not from the south side up to the front steps. It was always my impression from the evidence that Andrew went to the screen door in the back of the house, then walked around to the front door along the north pathway. What is your explanation for your statement?

The reported facts in the case, of course! If you read AR Brown's book you would know that he was a professional knacker or butcher. Read the story about the farmer who wanted a horse put down. (That's my documentary proof.)

If he didn't see her then, he knew she was given the orders to wash the windows, how long it took, etc. Since nobody was at the back screen door, he went to the front door since he knew somebody would be there.

The question no one asked: why didn't he take his keys with him? Isn't this highly unusual for a man?

(Message last edited Oct-2nd-02  11:37 AM.)

I think it was reported that Andrew did have his keys, but, could not get in because the night bolt was in use and the only way to open that was inside the house. 

Thank you for the added information. Of course that's what happened!

But who put on the night bolt? Only someone not familiar with household habits! That's one reason for the front door entrance by Nemesis. The other is that is the quickest and shortest way to get to the upstairs guest room, normally unoccupied.
I hope you will agree that this is a logical conclusion.

(Message last edited Oct-2nd-02  12:11 PM.)