1. "Anybody Here Rich?"
Posted by Edisto on Jul-20th-02 at 2:51 PM

The perennial optimists who own that stockholders' ledger with the four Lizzie signatures, in addition to four Emma signatures (which I think are probably genuine) have it up on eBay again.  For a Buy It Now price of only $6,000, it can be yours.  -Or you can bid $5,500 and see if anybody tops you.  Keith and I were ambling through an antique mall recently and came upon a book that provided values for autographs of noted (and notorious) people.  I've never dealt in autographs and know little about their value.  The guide was several years old, but it valued a Lizzie signature at $1,000-$1,200.  Emma's signature, I'm sure, would be worth far less.  Tantalizing as these signatures are, they aren't the most valuable kind.  They lack "context," for one thing.  Another problem is that separating any of the material from the ledger would probably devalue the ledger and the material removed from it, so there's no way to sell off part of it to recoup the cost. 

Are they signed in ink or pencil?
You can chemically analyze the ink to determine authenticity; not with pencil.
The French use an ink made from mushrooms for legal documents; you can analyze the ink by microscope to determine authenticity. [Or so I heard.]

Mushrooms?  How very French of them!  I believe the signatures are in ink.  I have no doubt that they're genuine, unlike some of the "Lizzie" signatures I've seen on eBay.  They're surrounded by signatures of other people who, like Emma and Lizzie, owned stock and were acknowledging (I guess) receipt of a dividend.  They don't look traced, like that fake signature on the Tilden-Thurber "confession."  Although they're probably genuine, they give no information other than the signatures themselves.  Well, they do tell us Emma and Lizzie owned stock, but we can find that out from other sources.
A really hot item would be a letter in Lizzie's hand, previously undiscovered, setting forth her feelings about Abby. -Or maybe that letter she sent to her friends at Marion that supposedly said she had been sharpening her axe!

Morse says he "never had a letter from Lizzie in his life", he only heard about her through Emma's letters....
NOW, that would be a coup!  Emma's quarterly letters to Uncle Morse!
Any Morse relatives out there with scads of mail??  Please write in...

This is the same item that Stefani called to our attention on eBay back on May 12. See her post in this same category:

"Lizzie's and Emma's signatures again for sale"

Then too it was being offered for a starting bid of $5,500. Since Stefani said "again for sale" it must have been up for auction before. It didn't receive any bids.

I agree with Edisto that it loses much of its value as being part of a list instead of a stand-alone signed document.

That does seem to be a steep price for a signature on a list of other people's signatures.  I'm curious if someone will bite afterall? 

Yes...they've been up for auction at least twice before at the same opening bid and BIN.  I was certainly interested, but not at that price.  I emailed the seller to see if they'd consider being more reasonable.  Apparently they've had this ledger for quite some time and believed the more years they held onto it, the more valuable it would be.  (Same way some people felt about stocks until recently!)They have a value in their minds that's much higher than $6,000, so they think they're being ultra reasonable.  What they paid, however, is what my husband calls a "sunk cost."  They've already invested that; it's gone.  I don't think they're desperate to part with the ledger and can afford to bide their time.  Since it's almost surely genuine, I think they ought to consider consigning it to someone like Sotheby, where they might have a chance of getting their price.   While I'd like to own it, I'd rather see it somewhere like the FRHS, where it would be safe.  Collectibles are mostly very "soft" right now, but that may change unless the market begins moving up promptly.

Edisto, weren't you the person that wrote them the first time it was for sale and corrected them about the Andrew J. Borden (atty) signature?

I think $6,000 is a good price. Unfortunately, not in my current budget. Maybe we could all contribe say 150 bucks and each own a piece of it, passing it around from month to month? Actually, with 80 members, we would only have to put up $68.75 each. But gosh, sharing it 80 ways would be challenging!

I remember when bob dylan's boyhood home was up for sale a while back. A bunch of fans bought it, divided the cost, and are planning a museum/B&B thing there. It can be done, but very complicated.

They should contact  a major auction house, like you suggested. The FRHS is buying, you know. Maybe they don't know that!

I was in contact with them, but not about correcting anything.  I think they already realized it wasn't the right Andrew Borden.   There's an Abby Borden too, but not the right one.  Fall River was teeming with Bordens, which is one more reason for being dubious about Borden items.  I do believe these are genuine signatures - just not very interesting ones.  No little birds crowing...no pony-carts wanting to turn up a certain street...no rumors of wedding plans.

Well it didn't sell again! That makes what three times for sale on ebay? They get another whack at it for free, if it sells, that is, they get their posting fee back for the second time it goes up. I imagine with a starting bid of $5,500 they would want to put it up for sale again.

Sometimes on eBay something is hot one week and then nobody looks at your stuff the next. People really do a lot of impulse buying there.

When I contacted the seller, she (the item, I believe belongs to her husband) said they had someone interested in it, but he wasn't willing to pay their price.  According to her, they paid a lot for it and have held onto it for a time, hoping to realize a tidy profit.  That's not always the way it happens, unfortunately.  I sell mainly antique dolls, and certain types go in and out of popularity.  When I had a shop, I quickly learned that whatever was on the cover of "DollReader" magazine that month was the doll everyone wanted.  Three months later, you couldn't give the same doll away.  People are really strange, and I'm not immune to buying frenzies myself.  I use the eBay "watch" feature a lot to keep an eye on things that interest me but not actually bid on them.  It's amazing how often I lose interest in something 'way before the auction ends.  Then I'm glad I didn't bid on it.

It is on sale again!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=721128125

Note this: the A in Lizzie A. Borden is different in the two examples. In the first image it is a lower case large A. In the second, it is upper case large initial A.

Has anyone had any experience with these types of documents to know if they contain signatures or simply names? I still can't afford it at $5000 but one can dream.

I'm pretty sure that is Lizzie's  "E"  in Borden
[edit here:  actually, that "E" in Borden doesn't match Lizzie's known "E"s in BORDEN.  It does, however match her "E"'s in other words, like "FRENCH"]

As to that first example of middle initial  "A"   , that is odd, and I don't remember seeing it before this example.
Plus it's funny no one noticed this the last few times we've had this shown us.
Thanks!

(Message last edited Oct-6th-02  2:53 AM.)

I've noticed the difference in the "A" before.  In fact, the seller points that out in the listing.  That's been the case each time it's been listed, I believe.  It doesn't seem odd to me because many years ago I deliberately changed the way I make my capital "A" to the pointy-top style in order to make my handwriting more distinctive.  However, since I've been doing that, I've been consistent with it and not gone back to the rounded style.  Lizzie ("Lizbeth") seemed to enjoy reinventing herself, so she may have done something similar, but not as consistently. I'm not sure what Stefani means about the names being just written or actual signatures.  They seem to be both.  Someone has apparently written each name very carefully in copper-plate handwriting on the left, and then the actual person or an agent has signed on the same line, but further to the right.  I've assumed (perhaps wrongly) that the stockholder signed on receipt of a dividend.  I was amused to notice the interesting little curlicues on Emma's signature.  It's actually fancier than Lizzie's, which seems somewhat out of character.

Very interesting!  I wonder if anyone has done any handwriting analysis on Lizzie or Emma?  Your handwriting apparently tells volumes about you. 

There are surely enough samples of both "girls'" writing to use for analysis, although they might not be the kind of samples needed.  I notice Lizzie had a very right-leaning handwriting, especially in her later years.  Doesn't that mean she had an outgoing personality?  (Probably nothing scientific about that; it may be another legend.) I notice some similarities between her handwriting and my own (besides the pointy "A,") but other things are dissimilar.  I could probably learn to write like Lizzie, collect a pile of turn-of-the-century romance novels, and go into the autographed-book business.

From what I've seen, even just your signature can be used to analyze your personality.  I would be curious about things that were seen in their handwriting like their temperments, and personal quirks that could be picked up.  I'm surprised that no one has done this yet. 

Here is a pretty simple handwriting test, I'm trying
to find one that I tried last year on a new friend, it
turned out to be 100% right about him.
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~d7238349/home.html

Thanks for the link, Kimberly!  I was trying to do Lizzie, but, I need more of a handwriting sample in front of me to continue. 

It would be easier to do if there was something with
a t on it, the way you cross your t's is supposed to be
one of the more telling signs.

Which handwriting sample are you using, Susan?

Oh, I was using Lizzie's name which was written in that ledger, but, the handwriting analysis site wants to know things like when you cross your "Ts" where abouts do you cross them, etc.  I need a copy of one of Lizzie's letters to do a better job of it and can post my findings. 

Part 2 of "the Little Bird" letter from Lizzie to a neighbor, collected at the LABVM/L.

Thanks, Kat!  After work today I will see what I can come up with and post the results, should be interesting?! 

http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/features/goosini/

This is what it says about Lizzie:

The lean of your sentence communicates your optimistic or
pessimistic tendencies. Your lean indicates that:

You are generally an optimistic person (or goose) and enjoy life to its fullest. The Great Goosini approves -- he is willing to take you under his wing and teach you The Ways of The Goose. 

The spacing of your words communicates how well you get along with others. Your spacing indicates that:

You are cultured, yet introverted. You tend to be philosophical in nature, and you can often be overcautious. The Great Goosini advises you to loosen up and fly where the wind takes you (The Great Goosini recommends the south).


The loop of your "g's" communicates your attitudes toward sex. Your "g's" indicate that:

You are clannish and selective of your friends and sexual partners. Why are you so uptight? Silly goose.


The bar height of your "t's" communicates your work ethic and ambition. Your "t's" indicate that:

You are very proud of yourself. Ambition drives your life, though your sense of idealism keeps you grounded. You are more than capable to achieve your goals. You are a prime candidate to become the next Great Goosini.

The dots above your "i's" communicate your self-image. Your dots tell me that:

You are meticulous and have supreme concentration. Don't get too cocky! The Great Goosini could out-think you any day of the week. And, The Great Goosini can fly. Beat that! 


(Message last edited Oct-18th-02  2:52 PM.)

Wow!  In its own flippant way, I think this describes Lizzie pretty well, don't you?  Of course, I don't know Lizzie, but it describes the bits and pieces of her that we can grasp from the info we have.

Thanks, Kimberly!  Never did get back to doing that, did I? 

The thing that stands out most is her right-slant & high-crossed
t's, this is part of what that first test came up with:

Emotional Indicators

You are a person who keeps feelings inside. You do not express
your feelings openly and may tend to reason primarily from a
self-protective viewpoint. You tend to think carefully before
acting. This makes you a very cautious person. You tend to let
emotions go easily, forgive and forget quickly.

Your Goals

You tend to set goals which are genuinely long-term. You tend to
be ambitious at times. You show strong self-confidence and
willingness to tackle goals when setting your goals. You have a
strong power of endurance and enthusiasm that would help you to
achieve your goal. However, there are times when you demonstrate
a certain vagueness about your aims and purposes.


Your Self-Image

You have a confident, self-assured personality. You tend to set goals
which are genuinely long-term. You tend to be ambitious at times.
You show strong self-confidence and willingness to tackle goals
when setting your goals. You don't care what others think and are
independent of others' thoughts.

That was really interesting, thank you!

I knew the "T''s meant something.  Her's are not all crossed tho;  they are splashed out to the right side of the letter, if you know what I mean...not even touching.

Doesn't this show she is "out of touch"?  And kind of alienated?  Do you think.....does anyone?  
       _
     I     (this)  instead of  T  (this)

I can barely remember what little I knew about "pop" analysis.

I didn't spend much time looking at it, I didn't notice that
she changed her t's. I bet a real handwriting expert would
have a ball going over it. I noticed that her t's were crossed
really high & that she has sharp writing (not heavy or bold)
and that it really has a slant to it.

I found some of my notes from when I tried it on my friends handwriting last year (never found the site) it ended up being
totally right about him:

pointed M---above average intelligence
vertical slant---calm, cool & collected
no loop in O---frankness
sharp r's---manual dexterity
high-ending strokes---desire for attention
looped first letter---desire for responsibility
upstroke not a lower loop---aggressiveness
needlepoint letters---comprehensive thinking
low-crossed t's---low self-esteem