1. "The Parts of a Late 19th Century Lady's Dress"
Posted by kimberly on Sep-19th-02 at 9:19 PM

This is a link for a '19th & Early 20th Century Ladies' Dress Glossary'. http://www.marquise.de/en/1800/glossar.shtml .

This entire site is just really beautiful & informative.
It is all about fashion & it even includes patterns. 

In the glossary they also include dress names, nothing
called a wrapper, they have a 'House Dress' and the more
formal 'Toilette de Reception'. I think that's really the
wrapper.

Some of these terms are used a little differently from the way I've seen them used before.  They also seem to be drawn from European (especially French) custom.  In the Borden case, I recall several references to Lizzie's having worn a "basque," a term that isn't seen here.

I think I prefer Toilette de Reception to wrapper, that
site is indeed VERY European, and just so danged pretty!

On the starting page they have the links for 91 sites in
'The Costume Ring'.

What's a 'basque'?(and would I look good in one?)

A basque is a tight fitting blouse, it is tight thru the
waist. I personally look better in an overblouse, I've always
had a little round belly.

Oh, I bet you would look just fine in a basque! 

I've seen basque-type blouses in catalogs, they were doing
alot of those lace-up peasant styles. They look so beautiful,
and will actually fit without a corset. I also remember seeing
skirts with a little bustle at Victoria's Secret. Alas, I came
pre-equipped with a bustle.  

Love that Victoria's Secret!  Wonder bras for all us less endowed girls, woo hoo! 

Have you considered sewing 'tiny rows of silk ruffles'
in the lining of your basques? (I always get out my tattered
copy of Gone with the Wind after it starts getting cool.)

No, I haven't, but, it reminds me of the ruffled drawers I had to wear as a little girl under my dresses.  And then parents wonder why you want to lift your dress and show them to the world? 

Oooh! Toddlers Gone Wild!

You know it!  I guess its all those ruffles?  They just drive a girl mad after awhile, go ask Lizzie! 

Don't you think all those layers would have made you
cranky after awhile? People today like to look back & wish
that clothes still looked like that but I'm sure at the time
it was a pain. And with no air conditioning. Not so long
ago pantyhose was a new modern invention that saved women
from having to put up with garters & stockings.

I still love reading the Little House books & finally in one
of them Laura mentions her corset, after reading about all the work
she had to do (hard work) to realize that for several years
it had been done in a corset, it was a bit of a shock.

I know!  I also remember there is a part of the book where she helps Pa with hay mowing and is allowed to take off her "stays" though goodness knows what will come of her figure without 'em. 

It is hard to believe that girls were not allowed
to not wear their corsets, that is just so strange to me.
With so many women having to do almost as much physical
labor as men it reminds me of that saying about Ginger
Rogers doing everything Fred Astaire did except backwards &
in high heels.

Exactly!  An old co-worker and my massage therapist told me about his grandmother who wore a corset until the day she died, she was an avid tennis player and would do just fine with it on!  Problem was, she had worn it for so long that when she took it off, she had back problems, the muscles were shot from not using them to support her back with and such! 

I hate to admit it, but I've worn high heels so much I cant
go barefoot or wear anything without a small heel. I even need
to have a bit of a heel on my house shoes. That does not seem
modern at all.

Yes, I know your pain with heels, I too have suffered for fashion.  But, they do make your calves look great and your legs all long.  Its funny, I was just at a friend's birthday barbecue and every woman there was wearing those chunky, clunky platform wedgie shoes, myself included, and we somehow got on the subject of running.  If we had to, we all agreed that we would fall or twist an ankle or something.  But, then we all looked down and admired each others shoes, how sick is that? 

Isn't it strange to be talking about those poor Victorian
women and their corsets & we aren't any better!

I can run in heels, you mean you cant? I'm always doing yard
work in heels, I'm guessing that I could play tennis in them,
but not in a corset, that is just sad.

Oh, we weren't talking about just any ol' kind of running, sorry didn't make that clear, we were talking about running from the cops!  Long story, in a nutshell I hope, the woman who threw the party has a boyfriend who has a slingshot and she wanted to fire off the unused food from barbecue, just for the fun of it.  The boyfriend kept insisting that we were going to jail, and the hostess said, not if we can run we won't.  Running through the woods and such in heels, I don't think so, especially not in a panic situation with the police nipping at our heels! 

Susan, have you ever ran from the police?

Victorias Secret-some of that stuff should come with a tube of Mono Stat

Huh???? Oh, I like their lingerie, but I'm not into wearing
bottoms anyway, I love their pretty robes. All I need is
a robe & a brassiere & some heels & I'm all set.

I've run from the police in my teenage years, bad girl that I was!  Kimberly, no bottoms for you?    Oh my, I bet you're quite the popular girl at parties. 


Kashesan, I don't usually do all that super dressy underwear from Victoria's Secret, just the Wonder bra, mostly plain ol' cotton for this girl!  You wise up after a few years of wearing that non-breathable stuff! 

Yes I am.


I have never ran from the police, but I have hid out.

Oooooo, girl!  You're one of those bad Leos too!!! 

Oh no! I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way! Remember?

Okay, yes, I guess you're one of those badly drawn Leos too!  Still don't know what I would do if I was built like Jessica Rabbit though, probably fall over? 

You don't fall over if you are balanced with an
equally big behind. Not that I would know or anything.

  Well, I don't have the beginnings of a bustle behind me and I can only dream of having the pneumatic proportions of Jessica. 

It is impossible to diet away a bosom, I don't know
why, but that fat will not budge, I wonder if it is made
out of a different kind?

(Message last edited Oct-9th-02  10:11 AM.)

Oh, I know, outside of a breast reduction job, theres not much you can do for an overly large bosom.  But, I've never had that problem, my mom and sister on the other hand....Yikes! 

Isn't it strange the way we get off topic? We were talking
about Victorian dresses & now it is bosoms. But Victorian
women had them also, I wonder if they worried about their
size or was it just the tiny waist they wanted? You know they
didn't mind how big their bottom half was because it was
hidden under all the skirts.

Victorian women had bust enhancers and all sorts of padding for women who were less endowed.  Women's breasts have just been one of those things that rise and fall, like hemlines, sometimes big is in, sometimes not.  Did you ever hear that story of the champagne glass?  That Napolean had it molded so that one of Josephine's breasts fit exactly in the bowl.  I can't recall why he did it, but, it was supposed to be the epitomy of perfect breast size.  I wonder how he would have felt if his glass runneth over?   

Napolean was not from Tennessee! In case you haven't
heard, I get alot of creeps also.
(Message last edited Oct-11th-02  11:19 PM.)

Well, unfortunately, I'm one of those gals that need a bust enhancer.  But, I hear you, some of my girlfriends over the years wondered if their faces were somehow centered on their chests! 

Ooooo, then I had this disquieting thought....did Josephine create the champagne flute.....? 

(Message last edited Oct-10th-02  1:37 AM.)

I've been looking up A&E's production of Tess of the
D'Urbervilles, oh, what a beautiful movie that was! The
clothes were just breathtaking. The 'Justine Waddell as Tess'
look is what I'm trying to achieve (the line of the dresses &
her dark hair & the no-makeup-makeup). I also loved Heather
Graham in From Hell. But, alas, I never get my current favorite 'looks' quite right.


Oh yeah, I just remembered, have you heard that about Napolean's 'flute' being preserved somewhere?

(Message last edited Oct-10th-02  10:32 AM.)

In 1977, 'Little Napolean' was sold in Paris to an American
urologist for over $3000.


(Message last edited Oct-11th-02  11:17 PM.)

Oh, I used to work with this woman from Christie's and she had told us about it being for sale and she saw it.  I believe it was just the foreskin, she said it was incredibly gross!!!  I wonder if originally it was a keepsake for someone?  The only person now that I can think of whos into keeping weird things was Angelina Jolie. 

I wonder why he gave it away?

I think we two are the worst at rambling off the
subject, is that just the way Leo's are?

I think so, when I chat with my friends its from soup to nuts and back again! 

(Message last edited Oct-11th-02  11:14 PM.)

To get you somewhat back on track of the title of this thread here's an 1892 Bengaline dress.

The price is for the pattern, not the dress.

Lizzie's measurements? 

That one is beautiful! That is alot like Lizzie's dress
in the Newport picture, it would be nice if some of her
old patterns & dressmaker's notes would appear. I never
thought about that, some of her dressmaker's might have
saved things related to her & handed them down thru their
families. I wonder if anyone ever claimed Emma's fur coat
from storage? That is another new thought.

Thanks, Harry!  With a corset I could do the waist measurement, I'm about a 27 to 28 incher myself, but, that bust, um, no can do.  Very pretty dress though, I could just see Lizzie wearing something like that to go visiting her friends. 

It is strange that they can reproduce dresses like that with
modern sizes, you would think it would throw off the lines if
you had it cut to fit rather than wearing a corset to change
your shape to fit the dress. Susan, you could get the bust
measurement also, have you forgot about sewing ruffles in the
linings of your basques?

Yes, I believe it would throw off the lines of the dress as a corset makes a very smooth base besides cinching in your waist.  I recall reading something that some women with more ample figures had a horrible time with corsets as all the extra flesh had to go somewhere and it usually went up and over the top of the corset so that there was a roll of flesh there.

That would be too many ruffles to sew!