1. "Poisonous Paints"
Posted by Susan on May-27th-02 at 3:41 PM
As an artist, I have come in contact with
quite a few toxic substances, including paints. Nowadays
its not so bad, but, consider what was allowed in house paints
in the 1800's.
Until the nineteenth century, colors were mixed on-site by
the painter. (Like our Lizzie had done when she wanted
her father's house painted that just right shade of drab.)
Oil paint was usually linseed oil-based, perhaps with white
LEAD as a color base.
There were once 3 shades of yellow available that were produced
using SULFUR, MERCURY, or ARSENIC.
Verdigris was made with ACETIC ACID(which in itself is not
toxic, it is the main acid in household vinegar, but, when
mixed with copper to get the bluish-green it produces toxic
gas!)
And everybodies favorite, Prussian blue, it was made with
PRUSSIC ACID!!! Perhaps Lizzie just wanted to make some
paint the day before the murders?
2. "Re: Poisonous
Paints"
Posted by Kat on May-27th-02 at 5:26 PM
In response to Message #1.
There was a first-time poster, earlier, who
asked if anyone knew the *COLOR* of Prussic Acid.
I not only didn't know, I didn't know how to find out;
nor did I know WHY someone would want to know this.
Do you suppose it was blue? For some reason I pictured
a sickly yellow...
3. "Re: Poisonous
Paints"
Posted by Susan on May-28th-02 at 2:12 PM
In response to Message #2.
I would believe that prussic acid is either
clear or I feel a sort of soft yellow to amber color, my supposition.
I do know that it works instantaneously in death and that
it smells of almonds.
4. "Re: Poisonous
Paints"
Posted by harry on May-28th-02 at 2:48 PM
In response to Message #3.
Pulled out the old Funk & Wagnalls.
Prussic Acid (really Hydrogen Cyanide or HCN) is defined in
current terms as: "an extremely poisonous, colorless
liquid with a characteristic bitter-almond odor."
However it also says that HCN is made differently today than
it had been in the past. It "originally was prepared
from Prussian blue, from which the secondary name is derived".
One of the definitions of the word "cyanic" is blue.
I've also seen it described as a light blue. Susan, is Prussian
blue a light blue?
Today it is made from methane, ammonia and air with a platinum
catalyst. Whatever that means.
(Message last edited May-28th-02 2:51 PM.)
5. "Re: Poisonous
Paints"
Posted by Susan on May-28th-02 at 4:06 PM
In response to Message #4.
Thanks for the info, Harry!
Prussian Blue is a deep, rich, dark blue very close to navy
blue, but, not quite as black.
On a currently prepared tube of Prussian blue states that
no health labeling is required and the ingredients are as
follows:
Vehicle(binder): Pure Linseed oil
Pigment: Alkali Ferri Ferrocyanide (PB 27)
I don't know if Ferrocyanide is any less poisonous than regular
cyanide? But, there are still some paints which contain
poisons in them, like Cadmium reds and yellows! Warning
on the labels state that it is a cancer agent by inhalation!
Cadmium red used to be used in lipstick I believe until the
50's when found to be a carcenogenic. And Cadmium yellow
also contains cow urine!
(Message last edited May-28th-02 4:08 PM.)
6. "Re: Poisonous
Paints"
Posted by harry on May-28th-02 at 4:54 PM
In response to Message #5.
Thanks Susan. Probably the "blueness"
of the acid depended upon the concetrate.
The following is a link to a small site describing a murder
in England by a poison substance, one of whose principle ingrediants
was prussic acid. Note that the murderer purchased the acid
from his local chemist (druggist as we say in the USA). Also
the number of similarities. This was in 1845. Hmmm...wonder
if Lizzie read about this case.
http://www.tales.ndirect.co.uk/FITZR2.HTML
BTW, remind me not to buy anything with Cadmium Yellow in
it!
(Message last edited May-28th-02 4:58 PM.)
7. "Re: Poisonous
Paints"
Posted by Susan on May-28th-02 at 6:07 PM
In response to Message #6.
Thanks for the link, Harry! Steele's
Acid was used in the treatment of varicose veins? Did
one drink it, or rub it on the afflicted area? And just
having the chemist's testimony in Lizzie's trial, it would
take such a small amount to induce death, how was such a toxic
substance marketed? I realize there was no FDA then,
but, there must have been some realization of how poisonous
this acid was?
And I'll keep the Cadmium yellow far away from you, Harry!
The way I found that out was in school when we had a woman
visiting from Grumbacher. She passed out a tube of Cadmium
yellow and asked everyone to rub a little between their fingers
to feel the smoothness of their brand of paint. I did
not, knowing that Cadmium is not something to put on your
skin, you can absorb it. Other people did though, and
with a twinkle in her eye, the Grumbacher woman told everyone
that they now had cow urine on their fingers as it is one
of the ingrediants. She thought that I was a smart cookie
and knew about the urine already. Whatever!
8. "Re: Poisonous
Poison"
Posted by Kat on Jun-6th-02 at 4:27 PM
In response to Message #4.
A bit of supplemental info on Prussic Acid:
Rebello, pg. 81, Zephaniah W. Pease, "The Borden Case",
New Bedford Daily Mercury, August 24, 1892: 2.
"Prussic acid [hydrocyanic acid] is one of the most deadly
poisons known and it is frequently exceedingly rapid in its
action Death usually takes place from one to forty minutes.
It is sure, quick and refined; ...It is a transparent, colorless,
volatile, possessing a smell resembling that of peack kernedis
[kernels], a taste at first cooling, and afterwards somewhat
irritating. To be techinal, the prussic acid we buy
at drug stores is two percent, absolute hydrocyanic and 98
percent, of alchol and water. One or two drops of the
pure acid will kill a vigorous dog in a few seconds - almost
instantaneousley. Death is the result of asphyxia, produced
by a direct, paralytical action of the poison on the respiratory
centers. It paralyzes the heart and sometimes produces
fatal syncope. Sometimes death is instantaneous, but
usually there are three stages, the first being difficulty
of respiration, the second a convulsive stage, when the victim
is violent, and the third, collapse.
The peach odor is one of the strongest of indication.
The post mortem appearances are glistening and staring expression
of the eyes, a gorged state of the venous system, and if death
has been rapid, the blood is cyanotic. The poison is
volatile, but it has been detected three weeks after death."
9. "Re: Poisonous
Poison"
Posted by Edisto on Jun-6th-02 at 8:13 PM
In response to Message #8.
Well, then, I guess maybe I should try something
else! My souffles have been known to cause a similar
reaction.
10. "Re: Poisonous
Poison"
Posted by Susan on Jun-6th-02 at 10:32 PM
In response to Message #9.
Thanks for the additional info, Kat!
Very interesting, the peach pit smell, I read it smelled of
almonds?
Very good, Edisto! I've heard that Prussic acid
goes very well with mutton.
11. "Re: Poisonous
Poison"
Posted by Kat on Jun-7th-02 at 1:24 AM
In response to Message #10.
Unnatural Death, Confessions of a Medical
Examiner, Michael Baden, M.D., 1989, pg. 40:
"Cyanide is easy to find if we are looking for it.
Any reader of mystery stories knows that it has an odor of
bitter almonds. The odor lingers even at the autopsy,
but there's a catch -- not everyone can smell it. The
ability to smell it is genetic, and only 40 percent of the
population have the right genes. For those with the
wrong genes, cyanide provides two other clues -- it turns
the skin and blood dark scarlet, and it corrodes the stomach.
Cyanide prevents oxygen from being distributed to the body.
It kills by suffocation.
...cyanide is the one most associated with spies and international
intrigue. As a suicide pill it acts rapidly..."
12. "Re: Poisonous
Poison"
Posted by Susan on Jun-7th-02 at 3:35 AM
In response to Message #11.
Thanks for the info, Kat. I wonder what
other poisons were common in the Victorian household?
I do recall reading that even the wallpaper was suspect, traces
of arsenic and such.
13. "Re: Poisonous
Poison"
Posted by Susan on Jun-7th-02 at 6:47 PM
In response to Message #12.
Found a wonderful site on Prussic Acid.
Apparently it WAS used to gas insects, especially the larvae!!!
This was in the 1940s from what I gather, perhaps Lizzie was
ahead of her time?
http://www.codoh.com/incon/inconzyklon.html
14. "Re: Poisonous
Paints"
Posted by Stefani on Jun-11th-02 at 11:19 PM
In response to Message #3.
While reading this from Susan in post #1 of
this thread, I had a visual image:
"And everybodies favorite, Prussian blue, it was made
with PRUSSIC ACID!!! Perhaps Lizzie just wanted to make some
paint the day before the murders?"
I had this image flash in my head: I saw Lizzie licking the
walls of her room. Now I know that sounds sick, but think
about it (I have no idea where I am going so bear with me
as I flesh this out while I type it here).
Lead poisoning happens a lot to poor innercity kids doesn't
it? They lick the walls, or eat chips of paint from the walls,
right? That must mean that this kind of paint has a nice flavor
or else is very addictive.
This is dumb, but maybe Lizzie had a prussic acid addiction
(if such a thing is possible) and she needed to up the dosage
and thought she could buy it for herself from the drug store.
Maybe it was only after leaving the house, being in jail and
later moving to Maplecroft, that she was able to get over
it.
Does this sound crazy to any of you?
15. "Re: Poisonous
Paints"
Posted by Susan on Jun-12th-02 at 3:30 AM
In response to Message #14.
Well, Stef, I don't know if someone could
have an addiction to Prussic acid seeing how deadly it is,
but, what I was thinking was that maybe Lizzie lived in a
"toxic" house. And I mean that as outside
of the family relations, what I'm refering to is the wallpaper
could have lead and arsenic, etc, the paint was most definitely
lead based. Lead pipes to bring water into the house,
you get my drift? The family may have been poisoned
all along by the items in their home.
And something I found out from my brother who paints houses,
when re-doing Victorian homes, "mouthable" surfaces;
such as windowsills, lower portions of doors, plus baseboards(sometimes)
all need to be cleaned of lead based paint. These are
at a level where children can put their mouths on and get
lead poisoning. Lead poisoning is accumulative, it builds
up over a period of time.
16. "Re: Poisonous
Paints"
Posted by rays on Jun-14th-02 at 2:10 PM
In response to Message #15.
I'm not a physician or even a medical technician.
But doesn't cyanide (bluish?) also turn Caucasian skin blue?
Absence of oxygen, etc.
The fact that it kills so quickly makes it practical for L-pills,
or vermin removal; but not for stealth poisoning! Unless
used as a defensive weapon ("here, have some hot tea
to calm your nerves, dear William").
There are other poisonous gasses used to fumigate businesses
and homes from certain insect infestation. They cover the
place with a plastic tent to seal it in. There was something
on the news about this in NY city over 12 years ago; infestation
in spices from Asia.
(Message last edited Jun-14th-02 2:14 PM.)
17. "Re: Poisonous
Paints"
Posted by Susan on Jun-14th-02 at 10:18 PM
In response to Message #16.
I just recently had my apartment(its in a
duplex)tented for termites. I don't recall the gas that
is used, but, all house plants must be out of the house, all
food must be stored in these special double plastic bags,
etc. And all this for 2 days!!! Thats how toxic
this stuff is that they use!
18. "Re: Poisonous
Paints"
Posted by Susan on Jun-23rd-02 at 9:26 PM
In response to Message #17.
Found this little goodie on the links page
for the Household Cyclopedia of General Information, it is
an article on making oil paints, for household or artist use:
To Make Prussian Blue
Dissolve Sulphate of Iron (Copperas: a green sulphate of iron
used in dyeing or making inks. Or Copper Vitriol, which also
has the same caustic properties, dangerous stuff to handle!!!)
in water; boil the solution.
Add Nitric Acid(a corrosive liquid used in making dyes, explosives,
and fertilizers.) until red fumes cease to come off(!!!!!),
add enough Sulphuric Acid ( A heavy corrosive oily acid used
esp. in making fertilizers, chemicals, and petroleum products.)
to render the liquor clear. This is the Persulphate
of Iron. To this add a solution of Ferrocyanide of Potassium(Yellow
Prussiate of Potash i.e. Prussic Acid!!!!),as long as any
precipitate is produced. (Precipitate: the solid matter
that seperates out and usually falls to the bottom of a liquid.)
Wash this precipitate thoroughly with water acidulated with
Sulphuric Acid, and dry in a warm place.
I would imagine if one survived using all these chemicals
you would end up with a dried mass of Prussian Blue pigment
that could then be ground up and added to Linseed oil.
Please do not try this at home!!!
19. "Re: Poisonous
Paints"
Posted by Kat on Jun-23rd-02 at 9:36 PM
In response to Message #18.
I think it would be safer if we just took
a PHOTOGRAPH.
20. "Re: Poisonous
Paints"
Posted by Susan on Jun-23rd-02 at 11:35 PM
In response to Message #19.
Oh, but if we develope the film ourselves
there are equally dangerous chemicals in use there too!
21. "Re: Poisonous
Paints"
Posted by Kat on Jun-23rd-02 at 11:46 PM
In response to Message #20.
O.K.
How about a POLOROID?
22. "Re: Poisonous
Paints"
Posted by Susan on Jun-24th-02 at 3:14 AM
In response to Message #21.
Okay! You know I was just kidding
before!
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