1. "When Lizzie Went to the Barn"
Posted by haulover on Apr-5th-03 at 8:48 PM

this may not amount to anything, but in looking for some new angle on lizzie's visit to the barn, as she tells it.  i wonder:  under normal circumstances, would she have gone out to spend some time in the barn and left the screened door open that way -- with maggie upstairs and father resting on the couch -- without saying anything to either one of them?  i'm thinking of the importance the household placed on locking doors.  earlier, when maggie goes outside to wash the windows, she knows that lizzie is up and about.  but when lizzie goes to the barn, she must know that neither father nor maggie know the open door is unattended. 

If Lizzie went to the barn at all, that is.  Mind you, Lubinsky's testimony that he saw her was 1 of the saving graces in her trial.  But, who knows if he did or did not.  From the story, Lubinsky had just finished being in a dither about being behind schedule because his horse was still eating when he got to the stables (just south of the Borden house).  So, I wasn't really impressed by that whole story.

I agree, if she did go out to the barn briefly that day (perhaps as a possible alibi, hoping someone would see her), she knew no one would be around to make a fuss over the lock.

I could see how in other circumstances, she might just leave the door unlocked "for the hell of it" as a little act of rebellion.

Yes, you're right.  That IS odd.  Because Lizzie said to Bridget, as  the last thing before Bridget went upstairs:

Mrs. Borden is "going out or gone out" and  "If you go out, be sure and lock the door, because I may be out."

So there Lizzie shows concern about the locking of the doors, yet Andrew is there and he is not mentioned.  Then Bridget goes up stairs and the next thing we know Lizzie supposedly goes out to the barn, leaving that door unlocked &unguarded !

I was wondering if this locking of the doors was a Borden-thing
or is that the way people lived back then?  Very strange to
be locking doors in the afternoon while people are in and out,
washing windows and going to the barn...

First, it is still the custom in many places today to only lock the doors at night, or when everyone is away. Locking the front door and leaving the back door open is also common. Your opinions invited.
Besides, Lizzie must leave the back screen door unhooked so she can get back in. Andy was home (with his visitor).

No one really knows why the Borden house was kept so locked up.  It is possible that each person in the house had different motives for locking doors at different times. 

I don't believe Bridget said that she locked the screen door after Mr. Borden when he took his slop pail out to throw it in the yard. Did Mr. Borden consider that too unimportant a thing to do, knowing so many others were in the house?  On the other hand, did he call for Bridget to lock the screen while he was out, and also let him back in but none of the testimony shows that? 

Perhaps Lizzie, when leaving for the barn, did not exit by the screen door. I can't remember if she actually said she left by the screen door, I believe she just said she went to the barn.  Perhaps she went into the basement, out both doors into the yard. Therefore the murderer must have unlocked the screen to leave it wide open for her to see when she emerged from the barn. Perhaps the groan she heard when coming out the barn door WAS the screen door which noise led her to go look at the side porch rather than going back down the basement from which she came from?  Then when inside the hall she went downstairs, closed up the doors and came back into the hall.  At that point there wasn't anything to alert her to anything unusual such as a murder except for the screen being open, and maybe she assumed Bridget hadn't hooked it well before she went upstairs. 

There are many reasons to think of that don't include Lizzie was lying. 

Carol, I haven't been on this forum that long but I don't
get your opinion, are you saying Lizzie is innocent?  I also
don't think she did the deed but I think she had something to do with it behind the scenes.  What do you think?

well, i'm looking for something here without having much to go on.  it's easy to get tangled up because i can't be sure of what lizzie thought when she went out concerning abby.  did she think abby had gone out, was somewhere in the house, or dead upstairs?  one thing we do know is lizzie hadn't seen her for some time.

i've considered that the groan lizzie heard was the screen door -- but i think it unlikely since bridget did not hear it.  of course bridget could have lied when she said she did not hear anything.

as for lizzie seeing the door wide open:  i'm not sure i have an accurate image of that.  did it not have a spring so it would close on its own?  if she sees it wide open, i would think that her first thought would be "how odd that anyone would leave it that way."  if the screen door was open because bridget had not locked it right, i think lizzie would have noticed it before she ever went out, and shut it.

there's probably not much here.  except that every other time that door is left unlocked, there is someone up and about inside.  when lizzie goes to the barn, everyone in the house appears to be lying down somewhere.

But isn't there a contemporary photo of the back door that shows the screen door open 180 degrees?

that's interesting.  i haven't seen it.  a screen door or a storm door usually won't stay open like that.

your question can be answered by a thorough examination of her inquest.  something strange is going on in the house that day, and lizzie is at the center of it -- whether or not her hand swung the axe.

I've not relied too much on an exact interpretation of "open" when it comes to these Fall Riverites.
Lizzie says specifically in her Inquest that she found the door "open".
Q. When you went out to the barn did you leave the door shut, the screen door?
A. I left it shut.
Q. When you came back did you find it shut or open?
A. No, sir; I found it open.
(Inq. 83)

I used to picture it as wide open but she doesn't say that, and so I decided not to assume that.

Morse uses "open", but the attorney uses *wide open*, as to the cellar door:
Prelim., 256
Q.  Did you notice at all the cellar door, whether it was open or shut?
A.  I think when I came from the back of the house, when I got the pears, I think it was open; I wont be sure, but I think it was.
Q.  When you first went back of the house?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  Wide open, or only partly open?
A.  Well I could not say.
Q.  Did you notice whether the barn door was open or shut?
A.  I think it was open.


Witness Statements, 9 [about Morse]
"...He then returned to the P. O. and at 8.32 A.M. dropped a letter addressed to Wm. A. Davis So. Dartmouth. It bore the words "In haste". On his way home he tried the Daily News door, and it was not open."

--This can mean to Harrington that the door was locked.

- Morse remarks that Lizzie's door to the hall was locked, Wed. night (Prelim.238), later stating that he didn't know if it was locked because he didn't try the door!(Prelim. 249):
Q.  Do you recollect whether Miss Lizzie's door into the hall was shut or not?
A.  It was shut when I went up.

Q.  You do not know whether it was locked or not?
A.  I do not.
....
....A.   I did not try it that night.


My point is sometimes when they say open, they may mean not locked.  It's all in the context.

True, the context is important.  I do think however, that if the door was fully open that would have been unusual and they would have remembered it and answered that way. Even more so when it might have been the door the killer used.

You cannot see the side door from the barn until you round that jog at the corner of the house.  You would not know if the door was closed but not locked until you got up on the porch and tried it unless it was partially or fully open.

If the door was open 90 degrees (vertical to the wall) it would have either partially or totally spanned the width of the porch. The person mounting the stairs from the back yard would have to push the door in to get around it. Then once around it, open it further and then enter.

It would seem to me I would remember if I had to do that.  If the door was closed but not locked you simply would mount the stairs and open the door.

(Message last edited Apr-8th-03  12:34 PM.)

But when Lizzie heard the "groan" wasn't Bridget upstairs resting? Two floors up, maybe her door closed? I believe Bridget heard nothing.
Opening the door wide open (180 degrees) would stretch the spring and make it "groan".

Why does anyone doubt it?

(Message last edited Apr-8th-03  12:09 PM.)

Yes it will, if either there is a hook or a swivelling piece of wood to hold it in place. Remember those hooks for shutters?

I found the answer to my question in Lizzie's inquest testimony,page 70, she did go out the screen door:
Q: When you went out did you unfasten the screen door?
A: I unhooked it to get out.
Q: It was hooked until you went out?
A: Yes sir.
Q: It had been left hooked by Bridget, if she was the last one in?
A: I suppose so; I don't know.

So my thoughts about her going out the cellar door instead are disproved.

I don't know if the screen on the Borden's back door had a tension strap on it or didn't. If it didn't it could float open from a little to quite a distance.

To njwolfe, I was answering haulover's initial question, just giving my thoughts on the door, etc. and I wasn't indicating anything about Lizzie's guilt or innocence in the murders because of the screen door episode. I think Lizzie very well did go out to the barn looking for sinkers and did eat pears while in the barn. In answer to your question about my opinion, where I am right now is I haven't made up my mind yet on whether Lizzie was in a conspiracy to kill the Borden's and find it difficult to believe she did Andrew's killing. And if she didn't do Andrew's killing then it is hard to believe she did Abby's. I tend toward the one murderer for both idea.  

rays:

i doubt it if i have to believe bridget.  she said she heard nothing, but she said she could hear that door shutting from her room if it made a noise.

I did a search of all my sources and I can't find anything listed about that screen door having some sort of closing spring or mechanism.  It sounds to me almost as if it is another door, just hung on hinges that one must shut until the doorknob latch catchs.

Which would lend more importance to Lizzie's statement that when she left the house she shut the screen door and came back and found it open. 

When I picture what Harry says, I see a screen door that is open but as he says, it would have to be moved out of the way to pass by it and then to slip inside.
An *open* door can be just not locked, a bit open, partially open, 3/4 open or open all the way flush to the opposite wall.
If the screen was all the way open flush to the near wall where Lizzie would ascend, that would look to me as if the door were flung open as someone escaped running.  (Someone would notice that I think)
A partially open door might imply someone slipped out.
A more open door might seem as if a person rushing out slammed it open and then from the ricochet it closed somewhat, and stayed that way.
So if an intruder left that door open, and was in a rush, slamming open the door so it partially closed again, it seems as if the Churchill house would hear that, let alone Bridget.

yes.  if we take bridget as the only ear witness to the house at that particular juncture, then andrew's murder was a quiet sneaky act.

Maybe that kind of hatchet attack does make some noise.
There's probably goaning and grunting and smacking sounds and it might sound like a fight, do ya think?

YES, if it was slammed shut. We've all shut doors silently, haven't we? If the door was pushed all the way open (180 degrees) the spring may not have been able to pull it shut. IMO

I remember (correctly?) that there was a spring attached to the top of the screen door, in a picture. Its too common to take note of.

The couch might have groaned if he fell on it. Maybe
the sound of the back of it hitting the wall? He might
have struggled a bit & might have been punched down onto
the couch & was knocked out & then the killer started in
with the hatchet. 

Rays, this is the only picture I've ever seen of the screen door from the 1890s.  Do you remember where you saw this other one?  Was it on Stefani's site? 

yeah, i've thought about that.  i can see an unconscious groan coming from andrew as he immediately goes into shock with the first blow.  someone said, i guess it was dolan or bowen, that they both died specifically of shock.  i don't think either of them knew anything after the first blow, whether they were technically dead at that moment or not.  as far as sounds made by the blade -- i would think it would be as audible as an axe chopping wood.  i have chopped wood.  sometimes you get a squeaking sound when you pull it out.  

The photo I remember was taken from the sidewalk, and showed the screen door wide open.
(I hope my memory hasn't failed me again!)