1. "Stop in the Name of Blood!"
Posted by augusta on Mar-9th-03 at 5:29 PM

Why do you think Lizzie stopped Bridget from going into the sitting room where Andrew's body was? 

I am surprised Lizzie had the presence of mind at the time, if it was a true surprise, to do so.  And why send her for a doctor when the man's face was pulverized?  And when she came back so soon, why send her out for Alice Russell, so far away?  Did Lizzie know Dr. Bowen was not home?  Did it buy her a few moments to think of somewhere further away to send her?  And why?  Why not send her to another doctor, if Lizzie said they needed a doctor so badly?  True, Alice Russell was good at sewing things up, but I don't think she ever went to medical school or worked on faces.   

great topic name! ha!

i'll have to look it up, but if i'm not mistaken, i think it was bridget's suggestion to go for mrs. russell.

why a doctor when his face is bashed in?  yeah, that's one of those vexing lizzie oddities.  to everyone who comes in, she clearly says he is dead or killed.  it is at her inquest that she thought father was "hurt." 

you suggest something that could be a key.  she may not have wanted bowen for medical treatment at all -- but for reasons more related to what she asked him for:  sending the telegram, etc.  on the other hand, as i think about it, bridget said lizzie said that she "must have a doctor."

i've thought a hole in this one.  i don't know.  except for this:  by the time of the inquest, lizzie is clearly saying that she could see that father was hurt but did not know for a fact that he was dead.  in the immediate aftermath of the crime, however, to both bridget and mrs. churchill -- he's dead.

I was thinking recently, that if this murder had happened now-a-days, but before DNA, my first thought would be that the man faked his death and put a body in his place and has assumed a new identity and is in Rio right now.  (A reason the face is bashed in)  But that is mainly because new identities can be forged easily now...maybe not so easily back then?  Or maybe they were?

Anyway, Lizzie is in charge of when both bodies are found, when you think of it.
Sure she has some bit of time constraint because Andrew comes home around 10:45 and dinner is at noon.  And Morse might come back for dinner at 12.  But if Bridget lies down for a rest and that family never seems too much in a hurry, it could be assumed by Lizzie that Bridget (lying down at 5 of?) might not appear until 11:30 to start the noon meal.
Personally, I won't lie down unless I have at least a full hour, but Then that still gives Bridget a chance of about a 35 minute rest, with another 1/2 hour to get a meal mainly already prepared.

So my question, to your question is, why didn't Lizzie give herself more time?
Because she didn't need it, obviously.
Why didn't she need it?
If she didn't need it, then sending people away after they came to her was not to buy time?
Why doesn't she just let Bridget find the bodies?

(Message last edited Mar-10th-03  2:59 AM.)

"Lizzie is in charge of when both bodies are found"

Hits the nail on the head Kat, methinks.  Esp "Lizzie is in charge".

Sending for a Dr...he'll officially confirm death.  Not only that, it's her FRIEND (Dr Bowen) that she wants.

First, I know of one case where the people sent for an ambulance when a body was found, cold to the touch. You never know for sure (unless you killed them!).

Well, today if you came home and found a family member dead you'd call 911 and an ambulance would come out and the EMT's are not allowed to tell you if the person is dead or not.  So we kinda call a doctor.  But Lizzie clearly yells up to Bridget that "Someone has KILLED Father!"  Yes, she did change that to "hurt" later.  I hadn't thought of that.  I think she did to qualify her asking for a doctor.  She was very insistent on it.  She said she 'had' to have a doctor.  And she would not let Bridget pass by her into the sitting room.

And if she had to have a doctor so bad, when she found out Bowen was gone, why on earth didn't she send Bridget for another doctor?  I mean, this was 'emergency room' time if we've ever seen one. 

I think someone was in the sitting room, and Lizzie was going to let the person out of the house once she got rid of Bridget. 

So, did Lizzie help WS Borden escape? I don't think so. She would've been the third victim if she was there w/ the maniac. IMO. Lucky for Bridget this didn't happen!!!

I can't remember Brown's saying where Lizzie was when Andrew was being killed. Fill me in, Rays.

I think Lizzie, Emma and possibly Morse were in on hiring a third party as the hit man ("whack man"?).  Hey, that'd make a good comic book on the case ... 

I think the murderer was in the guest room when Abby went up that last time.  I think he was hiding behind the door.

I think Lizzie helped the person clean up and kept an eye out for Bridget.  She wanted to find out about the back door's being locked or not when Bridget was outdoors with the windows.  And she told her about the dress goods sale, which she had never mentioned a sale before to Bridget - Bridget said Emma did from time to time to her, tho.  Then she wouldn't let Bridget pass thru to the sitting room.

Geez, with all these psychics around nowadays, you'd think one would have the brains to summon Abby and just ASK her who did it.  She saw the person. 

Everyone knows where Lizzie was:
1) in the back yard eating pears (the first and most likely story);
2) in the barn looking for something (the second story);
3) up in the barn loft where she could see nothing (the last version).

The last two were designed to send a msg to Nemesis: I stated that I saw nothing so you have nothing to gain by eliminating me as a witness!
...
The back door was "locked" with a hook. Simple to open from the inside, not too difficult from the outside (a thin knife blade).

(Message last edited Mar-16th-03  4:39 PM.)

Okay, Lizzie sending a message to the killer by what she said makes sense.  Could be. I remembered that after I read your post, Rays.  It could fit.

I never thought about that hook on the screen door being easy to flick open from the outside.  I guess it would depend on how much the door could open from the outside with the hook in place. Is that your own theory, or Brown's, Rays?  It's good. 

Ray, Would you be more afraid of being found guilty and tried for your life without divulging anything and possibly be hung, or would you tell the truth and hope the culprit was arrested and kept you safe?

Lizzie says she was not out of sight of the side door very long when she finally says she spent all that time in the barn loft.  In fact she takes her questioner completely off-guard when she says that she stood at that west window eating pears and she fixed the curtain there.
So it sounds MORE like she's saying she was in the yard (where she could have seen anyone) or if she was upstairs in the barn loft she made a point of saying she WAS at the window where she could see anyone.
She's not sending a message that she was nowhere near able to see anyone.  She places herself (Out of any story she could tell), as being in a place where she could see the side door.

The thing she may be saying, if she is saying ANYthing at all, is that she was not in a place to see someone enter or leave from the front door.

(Message last edited Mar-21st-03  12:33 AM.)

It depends on how tightly the door fastened. Decades ago we had a cellar door that was fastened by a hook. When I a teenager, I learned the trick about this (any thin blade or screwdriver).

That is also why a chain will not guarantee unwanted entry. A strong force could snap it. Or atttaching a rubber ban around it, then putting a thumb tack on the end. When the door slowly closes, the rubber band pulls the end out of the sliding socket. (What you learn from TV about burglar proofing a home.)

You've been over this before. If I was rich and had the guarantee that this would never happen. Or naive enough to think that innocence is proof of conviction.

I cannot say what her thinking was, only my opinion of it. Your thinking may differ. She did say that she was "out of sight".

Rays, you realize that we're all gonna be out there trying to unfasten hooked doors with blades now, don't you? 

NO, don't try this at home!!! You might hurt yourself.
This is only for trained professionals.
It depends on the play in the hook fastener. I once saw an example on how to unlock a chained door: fasten a rubber band to the end of the chain (where it goes into the fastener), use a thumbtack to faste the other end to the wood frame, then slowly close the door so the rubber ban pulls the end of the chain out of the slot.

"Professionals" who live in NY city always use at least THREE locks, one of which is unlocked to frustrate any picker. Or so I was told. Ever see the doors in "Seinfeld"?

I'm glad I live in a small town and need nothing more than an M5.

What's an M5?
I hope it's a lock!

I have 2 interior doors that are hooked.  The catz learned long ago to work these two doors open.  One is a sliding door, the other is dual louvered doors.  Both admit one to the living room/dining room.
I use a knife if I'm on the "wrong" side.  My brother showed me how.

i take that to be her defiance of knowlton when he accuses her of placing herself in the only place where she could not see the back door.  she says she could see it, but then manages to get herself to the rear where she could not see it for at least part of the time.

I was wondering if that side door held way too much prominence in the case.  Word Search any document of testimony and side door or screen door comes up like 20 x.
That starts to look like a red-herring to me then.  A case of mis-direction.  So, following Ray's logic, it seems as though the front door might be part of the equation somehow.
Lizzie certainly can't see it from the back yard & the barn window.  She can see it from upstairs in her house, somewhat, and from the parlour maybe.

I always figured that the murderer (who I thought was a hired one) came out the back screen door.  But if Lizzie was standing there after Bridget left, and tells Mrs. Churchill to come over, then he must have gone out the front.

Did anyone say they saw anyone come out the Borden's front door around 11 am?  I can't recall one witness.  It wouldn't mean it didn't happen, though. 

But then we have the first police witness on the scene who says that all the locks were locked on the front door.  Bridget says she didn't touch them after she let Andrew in and unless Andrew relocked all those locks again, why were they all in use again during the daytime?  The killer escaping couldn't have locked all of them behind themselves on the way out.  Which leaves us the side door again. 

Couldn't it also leave a confederate that was on the scene, to re-lock the front door?
Or Lizzie herself?
Her job is to unlock it in the morning yet she doesn't that day.
And no one can say for sure that it was re-locked after Andrew entered.  Doesn't Bridget say she left that to Mr. Borden?  She says "he shut it up."

Yes, Lizzie does at one time say the screen door was "open" when she returned to the house.  But out of that short time she was out of sight of that door, is so miniscule, it makes being in the barn or yard seem unbelievable if she was not to see someone enter or leave by that side door.  It's more believable if the front door was used. 

Did officer Allen check the front door right away?  Like during his first visit?  (And how come he's not at the Inquest or Preliminary Hearing?)
(YES I found it.  Allen went to check the front door his first visit after seeing Andrew on the couch and before he left, Trial, 433-4)

BTW:  Here is Bridget saying Andrew used a key on the front door:

Prelim.
Bridget
19
Q.  What locks on the front door did you find locked when you let him in?
A.  The bolt and a common key that I turned on both sides.
Q.  Anythingelse?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  A spring lock?
A.  Yes Sir. He had a key.
Q.  He unlocked that from the outside?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Was that spring lock set to lock the door up when it was shut?
A.  Yes Sir.


(Message last edited Mar-25th-03  11:53 PM.)

If Lizzie locked that front door up again, I think it would have had to have been before she called Bridget down.  Because from that moment on there was always someone at Lizzie's side and Lizzie only went to the front of the house later when Alice walked her to her room.

According to Officer Allen's testimony, he did indeed check the front door shortly after he arrived at the Borden's house.

Page 433/i454

Q. Describe exactly what you did at the front hall.
Page 434/i455

A. I looked at the door and the door was locked with a night lock and also with a bolt, bolted.

Q.In any other way, did you notice.
A.No, sir.  There was a lock under the knob, but I don't know whether that was locked or not.

Which sounds to me like Officer Allen is talking about the spring lock, the one that Andrew used his key for and was set up to lock again once the door shut.  So, 3 locks locked on that front door.

The front door would be more believable for someone to leave by so that Lizzie wouldn't see them, but, as I have stated, I think either she did it, or if not, she knew already who did, IMHO.  So, them escaping without her notice was not an issue.

Why Officer Allen is not in the Preliminaries or the Inquest, I don't know?  Perhaps they weren't concerned with the doors being locked as they had already found their culprit lurking in the house already, but, had to introduce his information at the trial for fairness? 

I hadn't noticed before that Allen was not involved in any of the prior proceedings.  I found that out while looking around because of your post.  So that's cool.

I would think that the first cop on the scene would have something to say at a hearing, tho there are no cops giving testimony in our copies of the Inquest.
There's family, neighbors, doctor , and the odd men out:
Bence et.al. & Hannah Gifford.  I guess Sawyer is the witness that stands in for the officials.

I see the point of what's it matter about the front door, but I guess I am thinking that it should have mattered.   The side door was at issue, and apparently the cellar door too, both within Lizzie's sight for periods of time if she WAS outside, so why not the front door, why not a window?  (In Lizzie's defence, that is).

Actually, that was a bit of hyperbole. A medium size dog is always handy to hear things two-legged mammals miss.

(Message last edited Mar-26th-03  3:02 PM.)