Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden
Topic Name: Bridget vs. Lizzie

1. "Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by haulover on Feb-10th-03 at 11:06 PM

bridget has been coming up so much lately, i thought i would make some comparisons between bridget's and lizzie's testimonies.

to save time, i'm not quoting from their testimonies, though i can if need be.  most of you are familiar or have easy access to it.  and if i'm wrong about any of it, please correct me.

the discrepancies between them have got to be important somehow.  i'm referring to their testimonies concerning the events of that morning.

lizzie says that about the time mr borden left (she judges as close to 10, although this is not the case, he was seen in town shortly after 9), she was getting out the ironing board to iron her hankerchiefs.  when the question is first put to her, lizzie says she was in the kitchen when father came home.  then she changes it.  she says she was in her room; she's connecting father's return to when she did that bit of sewing.  then she says she was on the stairs coming down when bridget let him in.  eventually she places herself back in the kitchen when father came home (or possibly the dining room).  to explain this switch, she says she was remembering an earlier day when bridget let somebody (not specifically father) in while she was coming down the stairs.  upon being questioned the next day, lizzie is emphatic that she was in the kitchen when father came home. she read a magazine and ate a pear. she explains she was mistaken but is certain now of where she was -- in the kitchen.  she thinks father came to the front door and rang the bell and maggie let him in.  says she never saw maggie.  she said she heard father's voice but didn't know what he said.  between that time and when she called for maggie to come down, she never saw her.  when reminded that maggie was washing windows in the dining room and sitting room, lizzie says that "she might have been in one room and i in the other."

compare this to bridget's account:

bridget says she let mr borden in when he couldn't seem to get the door open.  all three locks, including the inside bolt, were in use. she hears lizzie laugh behind her somewhere near the stairs. she says not a word passed between herself and mr borden.  while working in dining room, she sees lizzie enter from the front of the house.  she hears lizzie ask about the mail and tell father about abby's note.  she notices lizzie bring the ironing board into the dining room to iron.  (big difference here in that lizzie claims she started to iron just before he left)  bridget observes mr borden sitting in the dining room.  then she observes him sitting in the sitting room.  later, while in the kitchen, lizzie tells her of the dress or cloth sale.  bridget finishes up there and goes up to her room.

let's discuss this as thoroughly as we can.  (again, if i have any "fact" wrong, tell me as quickly as possible and i'll start over.) 

OBSERVATIONS:

lizzie starts ironing as father leaves, but according to bridget lizzie starts ironing after father returns.

bridget hears lizzie on the stairs and also observes her entering the dining room from the front part of the house, but lizzie swears she was in the kitchen and never in the front part of the house during that particular time.   

lizzie doesn't remember seeing bridget after father came home, while bridget has specific memories of seeing and talking with lizzie.

i did not include this in the above, but bridget remembers that mr borden, at some point, went up to his room and came back down before settling in the sitting room. lizzie doesn't remember him going upstairs at this point.  does this matter?  i don't know what it means.

so i awkwardly offer all of the above as a starter bridget vs. lizzie topic.  several of you are more clever than i.  what can you make of it?


2. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Feb-11th-03 at 3:51 AM
In response to Message #1.

Something critical I think, is that Bridget says she got her stuff together to start the windows about 9:30 and Lizzie thinks it was about 9.

"Maggie" had "Just come in [while Mrs. Borden dusted the D. R.] the back door with the long pole, brush . . . she was going to wash the windows around the house. She said Mrs. Borden wanted her to." (Inquest-pg. 58).
&
[Around 9 a.m.]
The next thing that happened after Lizzie got down was "Maggie went out of doors to wash the windows . . . " and Mr. Borden "came out into the kitchen and said he did not know whether he would go down to the post office or not. And then I sprinkled some handkerchiefs to iron." (pg. 59).

The timing involved leaves a crucial 1/2 hour where neither girl can prove their whereabouts by the other's statement.
This has bothered Radin and I didn't know it until I had finished My timeline...which I had created because it also bothered Me.
This is the essential 30 minutes in which Abby was killed.
Following their statements and why they diverge may not be meaningful without following the precise Timing, as well.


3. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by harry on Feb-11th-03 at 7:17 AM
In response to Message #2.

Radin gives a good comparison between the two testimonies beginning on page 210 (paperback edition). He lays the two side by side for comparison.

Although we may or may not agree with his conclusions he does present the testimonies fairly accurately.


4. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by haulover on Feb-11th-03 at 10:10 AM
In response to Message #2.

good point.  i've got to do some thinking on this.

but i just had a thought on the subject of comparing the two murders.

there is another such oddity just before mr. borden's murder.  which is lizzie's claim that she started ironing as mr borden left, whereas maggie claims to see her getting out the ironing board after she let mr borden in.  ???

i haven't even begun to think about it............but isn't it curious that there are such conflictions just before each murder?


5. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Feb-11th-03 at 4:36 PM
In response to Message #4.

When making your timeline, haulover, just go by pure testimony and your common sense as to how long something may take to accomplish, like vomitting or doing dishes etc.
You will become expert at the testimony and the differences.
There's nothing like doing it yourself.

When I did mine, I used no Radin, no Caplain, no Rebello, just the statements by the individual.
You should be good at doing one.
As you see for yourself, you will then be confident in your interpretations.
Meanwhile I should *brush up* on my own...


6. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by rays on Feb-11th-03 at 6:57 PM
In response to Message #4.

Does everyone remember what they were doing before they heard of the Challenger disaster? I do, since I was eating bkfst and listening to radio news. "Reports of lost contact" was what they said.

Just like on 9/11/2001 they said "a small commuter plane has reportedly hit the World Trade Center". But if I were involved in a disaster at work, I probably couldn't remember much of it; distance lends objectivity.


7. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by haulover on Feb-11th-03 at 9:22 PM
In response to Message #5.

actually one reason i'm doing my own is because i was confused by radin's diagram.  either i was dense or it just wasn't my way of looking at it.

This is somewhat off the subject, though perhaps not irrelevant.  i thought i had been over everything at least once, but i saw this for the first time the other day.  this is from the testimony of one of the officers at the scene; i'm not even sure which one it was, it's page 470.

"I then asked her when was the last time she saw her stepmother--when and where.  She said that the last time she saw her step-mother was about nine o'clock and she was then in the room where she was found dead and was making the bed.  That is to say, she was making the bed in the room where she was found dead, at 9 o'clock."

i had not realized that anyone ever said that lizzie told them she saw abby making up the bed.  in my thinking, i connect this to lizzie's "progressive" story about her awareness or physical proximity to that room that morning.  she says after going up with the clothes and then going back down she noticed the bedroom door closed.  then she's on the stairs when andrew comes home.  then she isn't but in the kitchen. 

i dont' know what it means but if the officer is telling the truth, then lizzie thought it best at some point to not say that she saw abby making up the bed.  it is not apparently revealing, but i've always thought it curious she says she saw that door closed, but in fact it was open when abby's body was discovered.  if lizzie was guilty she must have known it was open.  OR she opened it later OR the killer is hiding in there.

anyway, and again off the subject -- apparently you provided that Ouija board transcript?  did an anonymous person send that in during the trial?  it's rather creepy to say the least.  did anyone try to follow up on its suggestions? 

i know someone, who doesn't live near me, i see her about twice a year -- i can attest to her psychic gifts.  next time i see her, i am going to show her the lizzie borden photo taken after the verdict and get her opinion on lizzie's guilt.  i don't know exactly when that will be, but i will be certain to post here what she says.

as for ouija boards in general -- i have some experience.  years ago, i experimented with it with my sister and brother-in-law.  and with a few friends.  and by myself a few times.  it worked like mad for a while and finally faded and stopped working at all.  now i want nothing to do with it anyway.  my judgment was that it was basically manipulative.  it would mix truth and insight with nonsense and say things to arouse differences between the two people using it.  it does not give reliable information.  i mean to say that the phenomenon of it is not phony, but it is really about who is using it -- not what you're asking about.  i don't mean to go off on a paranormal tangent, but since someone obviously introduced it as "evidence" for the lizzie borden case, i thought i might as well tell what i know about it.


8. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Feb-12th-03 at 12:53 AM
In response to Message #7.

Here's  the rest of *Lizzie Saw Abby in the Guestroom* statements recorded made by Fleet:
(haulover, your reference is to Fleet at Trial...thanks for that cite)

Witness Statements  (our copy)
Fleet
Pg. 2
"Lizzie said that she had not seen Mrs. Borden since about nine o'clock. She then saw her in the bedroom when she was coming down stairs."
........
Original Notes Handwritten by Fleet
from: Williams, Joyce G., J. Eric Smithburn, and Jeanne M. Peterson. Lizzie Borden: A Case Book of Family and Crime in the 1890s. Bloomington, IN: T.I.S. Publications Division, 1980.
pg. 18+ :

"Lizzie said that she had not seen Mrs. Borden since about 9 o'clock She thought _____Bedroom when she was _______."


At the Prelim, Fleet:
Page 361

Q.  Which time was that?
A.  The second time, when the two officers were with me.
Q.  Those two, Minnehan and Wilson?
A.  Yes sir. That time when I went in, she said "it is no use in searching this room," she says, "Nobody can get in here, or put anything in." She says "I always lock my door when I leave it. There is no possibly way for anybody to get anything in there."
Q.  Did she say anything to you about when she last saw Mrs. Borden?
A.  Yes. I asked her when she saw Mrs. Borden last. She said the last time that she saw her was about nine o'clock that morning, when she was going down stairs. "Where did you see her then?" "I saw her in the room where she was found murdered."
Q.  Did she say what she was doing in there?
A.  She was fixing the bed. She also said in the previous conversation, the first conversation, that she thought that Mrs. Borden had received a note, or letter, from someone that morning, and "We thought she had gone out of the house." That was the first talk with her.
Q.  In this talk where she told you the last time she saw her was when she was going down stairs in the morning, which talk was that?
A.  That was the first talk, the first time.
Q.  What was Miss Lizzie's appearance when you saw her in her room?
A.  Cool and collected.
(Objected to.)
Q.  Was she in tears?
A.  No sir.
Q.  At any of the time was she in tears?
A.  Not any time.





(Message last edited Feb-12th-03  12:54 AM.)


9. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Feb-12th-03 at 1:43 AM
In response to Message #8.

http://www.arborwood.com/awforums/show-topic-1.php?start=11&fid=27&taid=1&topid=844

Posts #12 (Carol) and post #17 (Kat)
The discussion was centered on *cat killing* gossip and Carol replied with a synopsis of a letter sent to Knowlton purporting to have hear-say info on Lizzie's reputation as to cats.
[This was posted Sept.28th, '02]

-Here is my transcription from the actual letter:

"...I was told today by somebody that, while she was being manicured today at Madame Rosalie Butler's (over McDonald's confectionery shop) in Tremont street near Winter street, Boston, Mass., by a girl whose name she does not know, but who is known in the shop as 'Titia', and has bright color and auburn hair, this girl told the following story."...

(HK226, by [?] L. Apthorp, New Hampshire, June 14, 1893)
>>>>

I noticed the names involved were the same as in my OUIJA transcription I posted to the PRIVY.
Here was my reply:
"Those were very good *finds*, Carol.
I never noticed them before...Thanks!

See OUIJA, also, from Knowlton, transcribed (kk) here in Privy:
Section relevant provided..." (KK)
[OUIJA originally posted in PRiVY -KK, June 21st, '02]
Q.  Did Lizzie have a cat?
A..  Yes - yellow cat - departed - violent

Q.  Who killed it?
A. She - axe

Q.  Whose lap did it jump into?
A.  Jim Wilder - July 7 - 90.  *

Q.  Where did he live?
A.  No. 2 Second street, Fall River

Q.  Whom did he tell it to?
A.  Susy Wilder - she told it to Tish Thomas - manicure - at Rosalie Butler's - Tremont street.

Q.  What hotel?
A.  Fall River House

--"Note "Titia" & "Tish", "Manicure"...pretty odd...like a conspiracy to get this story across?  Anybody have a theory?
Also note OUIJA gives the date as July 7, 1890--But Lizzie was in EUROPE at that time!" (KK)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The letter is dated June 14, 1893, which is in the middle of Trial.
It is Wednesday, Day #9 of the Trial of Lizzie Borden and addressed to the District Attorney Knowlton.
It sounds like the OUIJA and the gossip which provoked the letter, or faked the letter were all a hoax.
They both dealt with the unpleasant story of Lizzie killing a cat, but as stated Lizzie was out of the country at the time the event supposedly transpired.
That was really good sleuthing by Carol to find that cat story, as cat stories are notoriously hard to find!
It jogged my memory as to OUIJA.



(Message last edited Feb-12th-03  2:13 AM.)


10. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Susan on Feb-12th-03 at 1:55 AM
In response to Message #8.

Yet in Lizzie's Inquest Testimony she states that she came downstairs a few minutes before nine and saw Bridget and Abby downstairs, and also Andrew sitting in a chair in the sitting room.  Abby is dusting and has her conversation with Lizzie about dinner and her note from someone sick.

Its amazing how her story changes with the tide.  She tacks on a little bit there, and shaves off a little bit there to try to make it fit.  Sometimes I wish that I could question her and end her little game of cat and mouse. 


11. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Feb-12th-03 at 2:48 AM
In response to Message #10.

All I can say is it's lucky Fleet had Charles Wilson to back up his statements as to his interview with Lizzie in her room.  His notes originally were indecipherable at that important sentence:
"Lizzie said that she had not seen Mrs. Borden since about 9 o'clock She thought _____Bedroom when she was _______."


I do so much like Lizzie's comment, though, as to what SHE thinks as to why she never saw Abby again after that time in the dining room:
"That has always been a mystery."


12. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Susan on Feb-12th-03 at 7:22 PM
In response to Message #11.

This is true, but, now we have 2 people after the fact filling in blanks, kind of made me wonder.  Did Wilson also take notes and help fill in Fleet's blanks or is this all from memory?  Its maddening, they could almost say whatever they wished, put words in Lizzie's mouth, so to speak.

That statement is too funny.  With the size of that house I would imagine if Lizzie genuinely was curious if Abby was still in and about the house, all she'd have to do is call for her.  Wouldn't it make more sense if Lizzie had just said, "O, I thought Abby had left for her sick call and marketing by then.  I really didn't give it much thought."


13. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Feb-12th-03 at 8:17 PM
In response to Message #12.

To the first part of your post, I say "Exactly."
This was bumbling FLEET.
I figured if he had no witness, I would take his memory with a grain of salt.
Wilson followed him around that day and pretty much verified what Fleet says he did etc.

Come to think of it, so did Minnehan, but he DIED before trial!

(Trial, Fleet, 468)

(Message last edited Feb-12th-03  8:26 PM.)


14. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by haulover on Feb-12th-03 at 9:39 PM
In response to Message #12.

to your second paragraph:

had abby been in the house (alive, in that house, that is) she would have heard lizzie call for maggie -- not to mention everything else afterwards as people came in the house.

it certainly makes lizzie look guilty of at least having knowledge and definite suspicion that abby was dead. 

the reason for not sticking to the "oh, i thought she went out" story and perhaps something like "mrs borden went out, i'm not sure where, could someone try so-and-so and see if they know where she might be." -- is perhaps because she wanted the body found as quickly as possible to try to close the gap in time between the two murders. if this is so, lizzie would have better off to stick to the "she went out" story.  because it's too late to close that gap; it's obvious already.

i've considered another possibility:  that she heard something she took to be the sound of abby coming in and had thought no more about it until now.........and now, in light of this, why has she not appeared?  is she dead as well?

making it all the more difficult is that later she tries to deny as much of this talk as she can.  it takes knowlton 2 pages-worth of questioning to pry the note story from her.

the more i think about it the more i think knowlton could have done a better job questioning her.  perhaps the answer has to do with something peculiar to the era in the manner in which he would question a female. ??  i don't know.  but he had the witness statements, didn't he?  (i just mean he could have been more specific/pointed about what she was alledged to have said to whom.)

one curious fact is that at the inquest, lizzie clearly wants to "take it all back" in regard to her statements/questions in the immediate aftermath of the crime.

i'll stop with that, because if i get too much into her inquest, i won't know where to withdraw.



15. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by rays on Feb-13th-03 at 2:26 PM
In response to Message #12.

Yes, the fact that she couldn't think of saying this implies (to me) that she blurted out the truth rather than a self-serving statement.
She did say that it wasn't Bridget or anyone who worked for Father!!!


16. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Feb-14th-03 at 12:43 AM
In response to Message #15.

Blurted?
That sounds odd saying Lizzie *blurted* anything.
One thing I think she may have blurted was , "Oh, what made you let me do it? Why didn't you tell me?"
Yea, right!



 

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