1. "Cistern"
Posted by njwolfe on Apr-6th-03 at 1:14 PM

from the Daily Globe, August 5, 1892:
"...one well known citizen of mature years recalled that
another horrible tragedy had been enacted in the vicinity
of the Borden residence, in the yard of the house occupied now
by Dr. Kelly.  Between 30 and 40years ago a woman named Borden
had thrown her 3 children into a cistern to drown and afterward
she jumped in and died with them. She endeavored to get her
4th child in with the rest but the little one escaped ..."
  Maybe the Kelly maid was in on this also for money and she
disposed of the ax and bloody clothes in the cistern!  And
I wonder if the "woman named Borden" was a relative of Andrew,
if this story is true at all...

Isn't this just BASELESS speculation?
So now its the Kelly maid? Why would she do it, and how come the police or anyone else there didn't figure it out?
Maybe you're right, but there is not a shred of fact for this.

maybe we should wonder what happened to the Kelly maid, maybe
she went back to Ireland too?   Yes it is baseless, just from
the newspaper, it also said " the opinions that were circulated and
the stories that were told were those which are duplicated only
once in a quarter of a century."  this is from snipits of the
300 people gathered around the Borden house after the murders.

This is so odd that you brought this subject up!
I was thinking about the "Drowned Children" last night!
A Forum member and myself have been chasing this story for a long time.  Well, really chasing for a short time, but then waiting for more info in the interim.
Where did you get this Globe report?  It gives more info than I have located.  That is too cool!

The story of the "Drowned Children" is an interesting one.
It was told on an old message board and the person who told the story said he heard it on Tour of the Second Street house--that was his source.  So we wrote the B&B and asked about it, and were referred to Len Rebello. 
I personally wasn't about to write or phone Mr. Rebello on this subject so I did contact Maynard Bertolet to see if he knew more than we could dig up..  His response was that what I submitted to him was more than he knew and anyway it doesn't solve OUR crime.  (Which was pretty funny--you had to be there)

It's referred to in the Sourcebook (24 & 199) and the Casebook(58).
It ties in with the "Sanity Survey" as it was something uncovered during the period of checking Lizzie's ancestors for a trace of insanity.
Apparently Ladowick Borden, Andrew's UNCLE lived in the Kelly house around the time of 1872 and before.  This is based on the initial report which specified the time frame as 20 years prior to the Borden murders.    Laddy had either 3 wives or 4 depending on who you believe.  One of those wives was probably the Mrs. Borden who drowned her children and committed suicide.  She was considered not "kin" to Lizzie because she had married into the family...But, that woman would have been Lizzie & Emma's great aunt (and the children second cousins?).
"...there never was the slightest trace of insanity in Mr. Borden's family other than the single case of the old gentleman's brother's wife, between whom and Lizzie there were no ties of blood."
This is a quote, supposedly, in defense of Lizzie Borden by none other than Mrs. A Livermore.  (Nov. 30th, 1892, New York Times)

It was from the Globe August 5th describing the scene outside
the Borden house and gossip flowing....It also said the 4th
child was now living in Fall River.  Interesting about the
connections..

Is that in a book?  Or the actual newspaper?
It's one of those peripheral stories that are so fascinating!

Yes, I find this story fascinating too.  Aren't the dead children now supposed to haunt 92 Second Street also?  The back stairs or something? 

Is that in a book?  Or the actual newspaper?
It's one of those peripheral stories that are so fascinating!

What I read was in the actual newspaper from 8/5/1892, I've
been trying to find out more about the drownings but no
luck so far

Thanks for replying.
Do you have excess old newspapers around your house?
The actual, physical paper, or is it transcribed?  i'm very interested in the exact form the source takes.  I hope I'm not bothering you about this.  I am not clear on what you mean.  Do you read microfilm in your spare time?  You know what I mean...
(you are welcome to reply in "Letterbox" here on Forum.)

I don't think there is anymore about that story in 1892.
But if you DO go to Libraries, you might try  c.1872, the actual event.

Also here is a link to Laddy's relatives...I meant to give it soomer.
It is from Ter's article, "All Things Swift":
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/SwiftCharts.htm#chart4
From LABVM/L, "New Research", 4th chart.

One thing I've found interesting is that "Victorian Vistas" doesn't have a word about these drownings.  Those books, as most of us know, are compiled from old newspaper articles, and there are lots of stories about all kinds of murders and other atrocities, but nothing whatever about the Borden drownings.  The first volume does cover the period when they would have taken place (1865-85), but nothing whatever about them...  Do you suppose there was an effort to suppress the story at the time it took place?

I think if we're going by the Silvia who compiled the V.V., he was more into sports than scandal.  (Which drives me crazy, may I add?)

Well, maybe he considered "mayhem" a sport, 'coz he has plenty of stories about runaway horses, children pulled into factory machines or falling into the fire, etc. --Not to mention the occasional murder.  I would think the drowning of those children would be something that would have been talked about for many years afterward.

Thanks for the links! I have actual newspapers, the whole paper
with the ads and all the news.  I sent away for them back in 1992
after the convention when I was so charged up.  They are probably
available from the FRHS. 

Oh you lucky girl!
They haven't had nespapers all this year that I know of!
You were smart to get them when you could.
I never imagined you had the actual newspaper!

I have subcribed to "Yankee Magazine" for 30 years or so,
back in 1966 there is an article about Lizzie and the editors
wrote a comment "soon after this appeared we received a flood
of mail... certain letters offered surprising testimony...
here's one that reads like an epilogue..."   It was a letter
from a woman who met a handyman who was doing chores for the
Borden's, had a crush on LIzzie, said he took away the bundle
of stuff....
At the time I dismissed it as garbage because I was so into
just the facts that I had on paper but coming across it recently
made me wonder how important all these snipits of information
are, I bet Yankee Mag has a lot in their files. 

Again I say, you lucky girl, you!
Good instincts to collect that stuff.
Can you transcribe bits about Lizzie from your Yankee Magazine?
I wonder how often it is cited in Rebello?

There is a book of collected Yankee Magazine stories
called "Mysterious New England" by Yankee Books, there is the
1966 story with the "epilogoe" in there. Basically it claims
a handyman working in the Borden yard took Lizzies "package" to
the dump.  I never believed it but interesting anyway. Rebello
came along after my time of zest in this case so I don't know
if he looked at the Yankee stories.  I'm on the list to get
the Rebello book! 

I was interested in looking through Rebello for cites to Yankee Magazine.  There seems more than a dozen!
The ABBY WHITEHEAD POTTER letter was to Yankee Magazine!
And thanks for the info.

Rebello, pg. 302-3

"Ayotte, John U., 'The Unfathomable Borden Riddle,' Yankee Magazine, August, 1966: 56-63.

He reviewed the Borden murders and the theories of Edmund Pearson and Edward Radin.

Also:
Stevens, Austin N., ed., Mysterious New England, Dublin, NH: Yankee Inc., 1971, 56-67.
__, Mysterious New England, Dublin, NH: Yankee Inc., 1971, 56-57. (paperback)

It includes John U. Ayotte's 'The Unfathomable Borden Riddle.' "