1. "Susan's Clue?"
Posted by Kat on Jan-9th-03 at 8:54 AM

Not long ago, Susan, in a fit of genius, found a clue, that may help solve (or at least to understand more about), this case.

I cannot stop thinking about it, or wondering how far it could take us.

Part of my re-newed interest in this question she raised, is due to new posters here who have put forth the belief (that we mostly used to know) that Lizzie didn't ever really make up any stories, just embellished what truth she deigned to share.

Therefore, the groan or noise MUST be explained.  We need to do that.

Also whether or not she really WAS in the YAWD at some point that morning.

And the weird one that Susan brought up:

That Lizzie said she *pushed open the door, it was not latched*, when describing entering the room and seeing her dead father.

If it was a slip-up of some truth, we need to figure what door and which body and what time, etc.

INQUEST
Lizzie
77
Q. Now can you explain why you were ten minutes doing it?
A. No, only that I can't do anything in a minute.
Q. When you came down from the barn, what did you do then?
A. Came into the kitchen.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I went into the dining room and laid down my hat.
Q. What did you do then?
A. Opened the sitting room door, and went into the sitting room, or pushed it open; it was not latched.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I found my father, and rushed to the foot of the stairs.
Q. What were you going into the sitting room for?
78 (35)
A. To go up stairs.
Q. What for?
A. To sit down.

Wow, a clue named after little ol' me?    I always got the impression that when Lizzie had heard this noise in the YAWD that it disturbed or distressed her, so she scurried into the house to find out what it was.  But, as pointed out on a recent thread, there is no definite direction or place given as to where Lizzie thought that this sound issued from, she just heard it.

Which would explain her later explanation of how and why she came into the house, laying her hat down on the dining room table and then was on her way to sit down upstairs.  I guess the sound didn't bother her that much, didn't get her upset or worried, just something she heard.  Possibly something she is afraid that others may have heard and she would have to explain away.  So, she mentions it.

But, this door thing!  Arrgh!  I've wracked my brains over that one, anyone else have anything?  The 2 doors from the back of the house into the sitting room open out of the room, not in.  I will have to check, but, I think the door from the front hall may be the only one that opens into the room. 

I've gotta say that I don't consider Lizzie's possible use of the word "push" to be nearly as incriminating as others may.  The plan of the Borden house in Rebello (p. 49) shows five doors that open into/out of the sitting room.  Only one, the closet door, opens into the room.  So unless Lizzie was hiding in the closet with her hatchet and waiting for Andrew to fall asleep, it would probably have been inaccurate for her to say she "pushed" a door open to gain entry into the sitting room.  At least she wouldn't have "pushed" it in the way most of us understand the word "push."  Lizzie says she came into the house (presumably by the side/back entrance), laid her hat on the dining room table (this would be the hat she wasn't wearing, according to Lubinsky), and "pushed" open the door to find her father slaughtered.  I have always wondered which door Lizzie meant.  It would have made sense for her to go into the dining room, lay her hat on the table, and continue to the connecting door between that room and the sitting room.  Since that door opened on the side away from Lizzie's approach, she would definitely have had to "pull" to open it.  However,it makes almost as much sense to me for her to have laid down the hat, doubled back into the kitchen and peered into the sitting room from that connecting door instead.  One reason I say this is that, having visited the house and eaten in the dining room, I recall the dining room as being overcrowded with furniture.  At the time I visited, there was more than one table in the room, and the "lounge" that was there in the Bordens' day was missing.  I believe there was a sideboard against the inside (north) wall and at least one additional cabinet in the room.  I haven't been able to find (nor do I completely trust) that diagram that shows the furniture in all of the rooms; however, I think the dining room was pretty crowded when the Bordens lived there.  Rick Geary's depiction appears to me to be about right.  Lizzie was wearing a voluminous skirt with at least one petticoat and may have simply found it easier to double back and take a clear path to the door that opened out of the kitchen.  If she had done that, she would have been approaching a door that opened on the side she was approaching and may even have been slightly ajar.  To gain access, she would have needed to "push" the door away from her, opening it further into the kitchen.
The view that Lizzie would have gotten from that angle would have been a panorama of horror, so that she would have quickly taken in the damage to Andrew's head.  Had she approached from the dining room door, it might actually have been harder to realize immediately exactly what had happened.

Another possiibility, of course, is that Lizzie's diction wasn't all that great, and she really said "pull" instead of "push!"  Or maybe the steno couldn't read her own notes.

(Message last edited Jan-9th-03  3:27 PM.)

If we hold her to the letter, she was in the Yawd, heard a GROAN, entered the house and went in the kitchen.  She does not stop there?

THEN she goes into the dining room...then puts down a hat and wants to go UPSTAIRS to sit down?
Wouldn't she bring her hat upstairs with her, and put it away?  Besides which no one ever saw that hat on the table...and there are plenty of places to sit down, in the lower rooms.

BUT, the door Into the kitchen is to be pulled toward one.  And the door into the sitting room from the kitchen is to be pulled toward one.

I have tried this, using the logic mentioned here, that if a "pull- toward- you " door were ajar, it might be considered pushing open, but I can't describe the same action, in my house, as that.  I'm not saying YOU are saying that, but only that I have heard a similar description.  It seems too complicated a way to describe the action needed to open the door...just in my opinion.
It's the *it wasn't latched* phrase that gives me this impression.  A nearly latched door would be almost closed, otherwise one needn't imply that one came upon it having to determine IF it was latched or not.

After looking over the floorplans again, I see that the door into the dining room from the kitchen is a Push-In door, and so is the one to the parlour from the front hall, and from the sitting room.

This is still a mystery to me.
Could she be confusing the groan and the pushimg open a door as to finding Andrew, when she is really describing finding Abby?
She says THAT door was closed--the guest room door.
If she heard the groan from there while she was upstairs that morning, she could have got up courage, pushed open that door and found the body of her stepmother?

I must have lost the ability I once had to write clearly!
Before writing my earlier post, I located a door in my own house similarly situated to the Bordens' kitchen door, if one were approaching it from the direction of the Borden dining room.  Yes, this is a door that opens into the kitchen, but from this angle, one would be approaching the side of it where the latch is located (not the hinges).  If the door had been left even the tiniest bit ajar, it seems to me that a pushing motion could be used to nudge it toward the chimney and make an opening large enough to gain access to the sitting room.  Perhaps other people would step smartly past the latch side, grasp the doorknob and pull it toward them, but I wouldn't.  On the other hand, if one walked through the Borden dining room toward the door leading from it to the sitting room, one would first encounter the hinge side of the door and would then need to take another step or two, grasp the knob and pull the door toward one.  There would be no pushing motion at all, that I can think of.   As to the significance of the door's being "latched" or not, I suppose it's a matter of degree.  That could mean it wasn't shut firmly enough to make a "click," or it could mean it wasn't completely closed and an  opening was left. I guess it's possible that Lizzie might have (earlier in the morning) found the door to the guest room closed and pushed it open to discover Abby's body.  But in that scenario, wouldn't someone else have been the killer?  And wouldn't Lizzie have sounded the alarm immediately? I must admit I've never given much thought to the "groan" that Lizzie supposedly heard.  I have the impression the authorities didn't pay it much notice either.  I wonder why...

No you haven't lost any ability.
It is a pretty clear picture I have now, as to what you mean.
I know you are also taking into account the big clothing Lizzie wore.
It does seem as though Lizzie's approach to the sitting room would be a cleaner, clearer approach thru the kitchen door, especially after she states she entered the kitchen.
If it wasn't for the invisible disappearing hat she needn't enter the dining room at all to set something down.
I used to think she wouldn't use that kitchen door tho, as she wouldn't want to acquire any common bad habits.

Isn't there a wall right there tho, to the very right of the kitchen door.  Would that be more of a *squeeze* than using the dining room door?

Really I'm ruminating ...

[Edit Here:]
Since you gave been in that house, can you tell me, isn't the door into the dining room from the back entry, first to come upon, and then the kitchen?  So that one can actually enter the D.R. without necessarily entering the *kitchen proper*?
If so, why then would Lizzie have to enter the kitchen at all, if she was coming in to put her hat on the table and go upstairs to sit down?
Seems she may have had some business in the kitchen before going into the D.R.
Other than that, THAT door from the entry way into the D.R. appears to open into the D.R. and might occaision a "push".

(Message last edited Jan-9th-03  5:43 PM.)

To answer you about that groan, Kat... I like what Carol wrote in another thread: "I have another idea, which no doubt someone else has already had before me, perhaps Arnold Brown.  I can't remember whether his book goes into this or not.  Perhaps the groan, distressing sound or scaping noise Lizzie heard on her journey from the barn to the screen door was Ellan Egan being sick in the yard."

I don't doubt that Lizzie may have heard a groan while she was coming back from the barn.  But, if it was Ellan Egan barfing in the front yard, then why wasn't that sound masked from the street traffic?  For that matter, the "groan" could have come from the horse stable a few doors down.  Or Billy Borden, for example, just realizing what he had done.

--Or it might have been Lizzie's stomach rumbling.  After all, she claimed to have eaten five pears, as I recall.

I wouldn't want to depend on my memory as to how the Borden house is laid out, because a few changes have been made.  For example, the so-called "sink room" is no longer present.  Looking at Rebello's diagram again, it does appear that one would have had to actually enter the kitchen and make a sharp right turn to go into the dining room.  However, if one reversed course after laying down that invisible hat and doubled back into the kitchen, it looks like a very easy couple of steps to the door that leads into the sitting room.  There's a short section of wall there, but it doesn'e look like a major barrier to me.  I made many trips from the sitting room into the kitchen and then into the dining room to get additional cups of coffee, for example.  It was almost no distance -- sort of out of one door and into another.  Believe me, I have no idea if this is what Lizzie meant by using the verb "push," but it's one possible explanation for it.  Maybe she was chewing a big wad of that Yellow Kid chewing gum with the $800 wrapper and couldn't be understood, for all I know! (Doesn't that conjure up a pretty picture?)  Today I was thinking of Lizzie with the same hairstyle but wearing jeans and a t-shirt.  (Logo: "Axe me what I was doing on August 4, 1892.") Wouldn't that be wild?

Wow, Edisto.  You got in 2 posts whilst I was composing mine!
Sorry I leaped over you, and thanks for the reply.
Do you have any photo's of your stay?
------
We supposedly had Bridget barfing in the yard Thursday morning at 9 o'clock, but Lizzie, and no one else says they heard Her.  [What are the odds that 2 different people would be throwing up in the Borden yard that day?]

Lizzie's first statement was she was in the yard when she heard a groan.
Her next, about the scraping sound was supposedly said to Doherty, and that she had been in the barn:
Trial
Doherty
595
Q.  Did you have any talk with her at that time?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Will you be kind enough to state what it was?
A.  Yes, sir. I said, "Miss Borden, where were you when this was done?" She said, "It must have been done while I was in the barn."  "Was there a Portuguese working for your father over the river?"  She said, "No, sir, Mr. Johnson and Mr. Eddy worked for my father."  "Were they here this morning?"  "No, sir, Mr. Eddy is sick. They would not hurt my father anyhow." I asked her if she had heard any noise or outcries, or screams and she said, "No, sir. I heard a peculiar noise."  "What kind of a noise, Miss Borden?"  "I think it was something like scraping, scraping noise."

--The way this is written, it is hard to understand where Lizzie was when she heard the peculiar noise.
--If Lizzie heard a groan while she was in the yard, and that was said to one of the first people to come to her aid [Bridget], and a muder had just occurred within a minute, it would be reasonable to assume that it was the dying groan of the murdered man, or it could be the groan of an attacker...BUT, how did this attacker escape without being noticed by Lizzie as she heads towards the side entrance to go into the house, as is inferred that is her response to the sound?
--Actually, fuller testimony and question is unique to the Preliminary Hearing where there is some confusion as to *hearing HER groan* .  It is Bridget who assumes Lizzie meant hearing her father groan.:
Prelim.
Bridget
33+
Q.  Calling your attention; whether you had any talk with her, in which she said anything about hearing her groan?
(Objected to.)
(Mr. Knowlton)  I have exhausted the witness' recollection, and now direct her attention.
(Court)  If it is for the purpose of refreshing her recollection of something which you are confident is within her knowledge, the question may be put in that form.
Q. Yes. Miss Lizzie said she was out in the yard, and she heard a groan.
(Mr. Adams)  Heard a groan, or heard her groan?
A.  Heard her father groan I should think.

--This misunderstanding in the questioning is probably where I came up with an interpretation that Lizzie really was hearing Abby groan and was transposing her real experience onto Andrew.  I thought it a possible scenario that Lizzie was telling the truth, but about the wrong murder, for whatever reason.



(Message last edited Jan-9th-03  8:51 PM.)

thanks for bringing up the subject of the noise again.  i think it's important too.

(in case anyone is interested and doesn't know, the testimony concerning the noise lizzie supposedly heard is in the "what lizzie heard" thread.)

it seems to me that when she was telling people about the groan she heard, she was telling it to explain why she entered the house when she did and found mr. borden.  by the time of her inquest, she has changed it completely; she just came back to the house and just happened to see him on her way to her room (she could not have failed to see him in going to the front of the house).

if the brown theory or something like it is correct, she may indeed have heard mr borden groan if she was close enough to the house; of course, if she did, she also saw the killer.

in terms of where the sound came from, according to lizzie -- though she doesn't say, if i understand the context in which she means it, she is implying that it drew her to the house.  i notice when bridget is questioned about it, she seems to have presumed that lizzie was referring to her father.

THE DOOR TO THE SITTING ROOM:
as i think someone pointed out, the answer to how she pushed open a pull open door -- could be a simple misreading of what she meant by "not latched."  in other words, if the door is actually standing about halfway open, then naturally enough she would push it out of her way rather than use the knob.  (did i understand this explanation?)

but what is more interesting to me -- as you pointed out -- and i had not realized before -- is how implausible her story is at that juncture "in the context in which she places it."  as was also pointed out -- one of her main tactics (assuming for the time being that she's guilty)was to stick closely as possible to facts while keeping herself away from the victims.  keeping that in mind, consider this:

in order to explain finding father, she must tell something that really DID NOT happen.  so she thinks of things she actually did in that vicinity.  suppose she was dressed and ready to go out when mr borden came home.  when the opportunity for killing him presented itself and she decided against leaving the house, she certainly would have taken off her hat before proceding.  she then goes upstairs to the guest room, pushes open that door, and gets the axe.  at least that's a push open door.  of course this is nothing but idle speculation, but it's interesting to consider how she might have told truths in a false context.  in other words, she took off her hat and pushed open a door somewhere in preparation for the killing.

i've been into her inquest for a while now, but somehow it never struck me until you pointed it out how utterly ludicrous this particular part of her story is -- amounting to this:  she came back from the barn wearing a hat, took it off and put it on the dining room table; then intending to go up to her room to sit down, she stumbled upon mr borden.  it seems an important part of the whole lizzie pathology that she can't simply say here instead -- that she was simply overcome with heat from the barn and felt faint and needed to go up and lie down.     

That was really well-put.
Am awaiting some interesting responses!

This may be a little off topic, but at least it has to do with "noise."  I can't reconcile why Lizzie is so insistent on explaining Abby's absence ("I had supposed she had gone out.  She had a note from somebody who was sick.")--UNTIL people start coming to "examine" Andrew.  Then she starts saying, "Go up and look for her.  I am almost sure I HEARD HER COME IN."  When could she have "heard" her come in, and why now--only after Andrew's murder is known--does she think Abby is "home?"
BTW--Congrats, Susan, for your eponymous clue.  And thanks, Susan and Kat for your suggestions posted on another thread about what I should look for when I visit The House.

..."But, this door thing!  Arrgh!  I've wracked my brains over that one, anyone else have anything?..."

I don't think it odd that Lizzie said she heard a groan, distress sound or scraping noise, she had ears and she heard something loud enough for her to register it.  But what I have always found unusual is that Lizzie said she found the outside screen back door wide open yet that did not alert her something was amiss. She went out to the barn after Bridget was upstairs so she knew it would not be latched but she doesn't express any problems with going into the house after observing this wide open door. Does she then latch the screen door--no one says. 

She goes inside into the dining room and laid down her hat on the dining room table, then going to the door between the dining room and sitting room finds it partly open or at least unlatched.  Knowing her father was napping just inside that door she might have approached that door gently. She could have used the word push during this activity because she used her foot to gently push the door out of her way even if it was toward her because half way through this process the pull activity would have changed to a push activity and the last process was what was in her mind.

I don't have a problem with her wanting to go upstairs to sit in her own room after coming in from the outside because that is the only place where she would have privacy and perhaps she wanted to be alone. Downstairs her father could have awakened or Abby could have been piddling about (since at that time she was unaware there were two homicide victims in the house.) Do you think this was also disembling on her part to say that she was going upstairs to make the police think she didn't know the body was upstairs? Do you think she should have wanted to have gone into the parlor instead? 

Lizzie coming upon the open screen door still supposedly without a clue as to a homicide is a good one, Carol.
With the *lock-conscience* family of hers that should have been a Very Big Deal--like alarm bells.

RobertHarry:  Edisto needs to give you info on your Fall River trip.  I think maybe she missed that posting because i had a side-bet that she would come in and inform you that after the first night you would have to pack your bags and FIND a place to stow them, because of day-tours!  AND it Can't be under the guest room bed!  other people pay to see YOUR room during the day (Unless they're closed to day-tours in the winter?  Edisto???)

Augusta also has good info...I'll see if she will come and give you the benefit of her experience. 

Thank you, Robert Harry, and you're welcome.  So, when is the trip to the Borden house?  I still really wonder about that built-in cupboard thing in Lizzie's room, was it always there?  The trim around the tops seems to match the doorway trim to the left of the bed.  This is what I'm talking about, to the right of the bed in this pic from the LABVM&L site.


Because on the floor plans its listed as a closet, was it one in Lizzie's day or always that built-in piece of furniture, maybe you could ask whilst there?  If always there as far as the new owners know, then by all means, pull out those drawers and check whats behind there! 



(Message last edited Jan-10th-03  10:29 PM.)

What's that big black square near the ceiling?

i think the two standard answers to your question are:

if lizzie is guilty:  she's still hoping that it will look like both were killed at more or less the same time, and so she wants mrs. borden discovered as soon as possible.

if lizzie is innocent:  she knows more than she wants to tell, but she has reason to think that mrs. borden is also murdered and sincerely wants to know.  "I heard her come in" is an obvious fabrication, since by now mrs. borden could not have failed to hear the commotion by now and made herself known.

of course, both of the above could be wrong.  could be she heard someone enter somewhere and assumed it was abby when it was the killer.  abby was killed about two hours before andrew.  i've entertained the idea that the killer could have hidden (probably in the room with abby) until after hearing andrew return.  killer then escapes through back door at some point after lizzie walks out of the house.

but what we do know -- and this must be a key -- is that by the time of her inquest, lizzie claims to know absolutely nothing.  she heard nothing, and she tries as hard as she can to refrain from saying she had reason to think mrs. borden had gone out. 

looks like a vent.  did that put central heating/air in the place?  beneath it looks like a thermostat.

The B & B is closed for tours during the winter.  I'm going to Fall River after Easter and it won't be open except for overnight guests. I won't be staying the night at the B & B.  I have a dog and a little boy, and I don't think they allow children or pets.  All right, I'm a scaredy-cat.  I would like to go there for the night if we could get a group of us to go at the same time.  Then we could stay up all night talking Lizzie.  I gotta see that cellar!  No way would I sleep in one of those rooms.  That place has got to be full of activity.  I always thought - still do - that if there is such a thing as a haunted house that house would be.  And, as we know, many things have happened there. 

We haven't decided when our visit to the House will be.  But, considering what you all have been telling me, I think it will be during the off-season when there are no house tours.  I will most certainly check out that bookshelf/cupboard thing. But, comparing the photo to the house plan diagram, it looks as though it may have been added to take the place of a closet which was once there.  I will try to look behind the drawers and shelves nonetheless. And I plan to look very carefully in the cellar as well.  I am still wondering how that house could have been sold (I presume it was sold by Lizzie and Emma)so easily, considering the great notoriety of the crimes that took place there.  Does anyone have any info on when the house was sold and who bought it? 

Emma and Lizzie sold 92 Second Street (by then renumbered #230) to John W. Dunn on June 15, 1918.  This is from Len Rebello's excellent book, "Lizzie Borden/Past and Present," (p. 557),which everyone should read before visiting the Borden house.  See also page 35 of the same reference, which states that Dunn sold the property to Mendel Mark on Feb. 2, 1920.  On March 27, 1940, Mark sold it to the Fall River Trust Co., which sold it to Wilfred and Alice Gingras on September 3, 1943.  They sold it to Smart Advertising, Inc., on December 7, 1943.  According to Rebello, the property was still owned by Smart Advertising as of 1999, when his book was published.  For much of its history, the house was occupied by someone other than its owner of record.  John R. and Josephine McGinn resided there from 1948 through 1995.  (I believe Mr. McGinn may have died before 1995.)  Their granddaughter, Martha, is a proprietor of the Lizzie Borden Bread and Breakfast and Museum.  I met her when I visited in 1998.  The fact that the house was continuously occupied as a residence and sometimes boarding house is probably one reason why it has remained in a good state of preservation.  

I'm so glad you chimed in here, Edisto.
Could you give him the benefit of your experience in Fall River, where to go, what to do, and what to expect at the house itself?
Is the cellar open to view?

From what I recall reading from forum members that had visited, the cellar was closed to tours due to insurance reasons.  I would hope that some time in the future, by the time I get a chance to visit, that it is reopened to the public.  I would love to retrace Lizzie's steps the night of the murders and go to the laundry room that was there and see if I could get a feel for what she was doing. 

When I spent a weekend at the B&B in 1998 (getting to be a long time ago!), the cellar was indeed open to those who were staying at the house.  However, the day tours didn't get to see the cellar for the aforementioned insurance reasons.  Supposedly the cellar is the least changed part of the house; however, I do remember seeing modern laundry equipment down there.  (I seriously doubt that the Bordens had a Whirlpool washer and dryer.) Nevertheless, it should be easy to pinpoint the location of the old laundry facilities.  We were told that the cellar had a dirt floor in the Borden era, but a more modern floor has since been installed.  I can't be sure the cellar tours remain as they were, so it would be a good idea to check with management at the B&B.  Guests weren't allowed to simply wander around down there; this was a guided tour.
I hadn't yet caught the Lizzie bug when I visited there, so we spent some of our daytime hours visiting nearby communities.  There are several upscale resorts in the area.  We did go to the cemetery and drive by Maplecroft and the Central Congregational Church.  Unfortunately, we learned after we got there that the Historical Society was closed on weekends during the fall (which seems strange to me, since there were lots of tourists in the area).  I think that's still the case.  We had trouble finding a nice restaurant in Fall River, although I understand there are some.  I remember going with another guest to a kind of blue-collar pub nearby, but that wasn't exactly what I had envisioned.  We were there at Halloween, and there was a big party at the B&B, which included many people who had bought tickets (not just the overnight guests).

(Message last edited Jan-13th-03  10:11 AM.)