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Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden
Topic Name: *Father had no enemy*

1. "*Father had no enemy*"
Posted by Kat on Apr-22nd-03 at 11:38 PM

haulover brought this up a while ago.
He said he remembered that Lizzie had claimed early on in the investigation that *Father had no enemy*.

I've been thinking about this and I'd like to see what you'all can come up with.  I think Morse says it too.
But then I think Lizzie turns around and claims Andrew did have enemy's?
I haven't looked any of this up yet.
Maybe we can dive into this question, as representative of Lizzie's inconsistancy?


2. "Re: *Father had no enemy*"
Posted by Susan on Apr-23rd-03 at 3:14 AM
In response to Message #1.

In the Witness Statements, page 3, John Morse is questioned:

Q.  Have you any idea who did this?
A. I can't see who could do this; do not know that he has an enemy in the world.

Then Mrs. Churchill is questioned and gives a statement, page 12:

"The Doctor then went out, Lizzie said, I think Father must have an enemy, for we were all sick."

From the Trial Volume 1, Mrs. Churchill is on the stand, page 348/i369

Q. Anything else at that time?
A. She said,"Father must have an enemy, for we have all been sick, and we think the milk may be poisoned."

Alice Russell's testimony on the stand, page 377/i399

Q. Anything about trouble with tenants, or anything of that sort?
A. She says,"I don't know," she says, "I feel afraid sometimes that father has got an enemy.  For," she said,"he has so much trouble with his men that come to see him."

From the Trial Volume 2, Emma is on the stand page 1562/i585

Q. So that you knew of no enemy that your stepmother had in the world?
A. No, sir.

From the Preliminaries Volume 3 page 272  Mrs. Churchill is questioned:

Q. What then?
A. She said that father must have an enemy, for they had all been sick, and they thought the milk had been poisoned.

Q. Now when was this talk that you have spoken of with Lizzie where she said she thought that her father had an enemy, or must have had an enemy?
A. She sat on the stairs.

Q. That was before Miss Russell came?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Just what was it that she said?
A. She said,"father must have an enemy, for we have all been sick, and we think the milk must have been poisoned."

Preliminary Volume 4, John Fleet's testimony page 355

I asked her if she knew of anyone that had ever threatened her father, or suspected anyone that would do such a thing as kill him, and she said,"no, I did not know that he had an enemy in the world."

Preliminary Volume 5 Philip Harrington's testimony page 392

I then asked her if her father had any person that she would consider an enemy, that she knew of.  She said no.

Oh, and there is also Mrs. Churchill's testimony at the Inquest which is basically the same statement from her that Lizzie says that father must have an enemy, we were sick, poisoned milk.

Odd how Lizzie told the police she knew of no enemies, and earlier stated to friends that he must have an enemy.  Hmmmm. 

 


3. "Re: *Father had no enemy*"
Posted by Tina-Kate on Apr-23rd-03 at 8:02 AM
In response to Message #2.

Great compilation, Susan!


4. "Re: *Father had no enemy*"
Posted by rays on Apr-23rd-03 at 12:57 PM
In response to Message #2.

I think somebody here posted the fact that the police investigate "50 to 60 suspects". Certainly JW Carpenter and that Brayton family man who boasted about "getting even with Mr Borden" were the most obvious. Anyone who lost their home or job would be considered suspects, as well as those bested in one of Andy's swindles.

I still think AR Brown solved the case, since his explanation fits the known facts. "If neither Lizzie or Brdiget could have done it, then someone else whose presence was hidden did it" - my summary.


5. "Re: *Father had no enemy*"
Posted by haulover on Apr-23rd-03 at 1:24 PM
In response to Message #2.

Excellent job, susan!  and thanks!

****Preliminary Volume 4, John Fleet's testimony page 355

I asked her if she knew of anyone that had ever threatened her father, or suspected anyone that would do such a thing as kill him, and she said,"no, I did not know that he had an enemy in the world."

Preliminary Volume 5 Philip Harrington's testimony page 392

I then asked her if her father had any person that she would consider an enemy, that she knew of.  She said no. ******

i thought i had seen something like this somewhere.


6. "Re: *Father had no enemy*"
Posted by rays on Apr-23rd-03 at 1:35 PM
In response to Message #5.

"No enemy in the world"? Of course she told the truth (as she knew it?).


7. "Re: *Father had no enemy*"
Posted by Kat on Apr-23rd-03 at 1:50 PM
In response to Message #2.

Thanks for doing that.  That's great!
I had looked at Morse at the time, because I remember HIM saying that Andrew had no enemies.

I wonder if it was only to Fleet & Harrington that Lizzie said that?
Is there anything in the trial arguments?
I'm not too sure about the veracity of Fleet and Harrington....


8. "Re: *Father had no enemy*"
Posted by Kat on Apr-23rd-03 at 9:03 PM
In response to Message #7.

Prelim.
Churchill
Page 286

Q.  Now when was this talk that you have spoken of with Lizzie where she said she thought that her father had an enemy, or must have had an enemy?
A.  She sat on the stairs.
Q.  That was before Miss Russell came?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Just what was it that she said?
A.  She said "father must have an enemy, for we have all been sick, and we think the milk must have been poisoned."
Q.  Was there any time when something was said about some Portuguese having done it, some farm hand?
A.  The policeman inquired of Miss Lizzie about a man that worked on the farm. I heard them talking about it.
Q.  What did Miss Lizzie say about that?
A.  She would not suspect that man of anything of that kind, said that he had worked for them a great many years.
Q.  Did she say that she did not think anybody that worked on the farm would have done it?
A.  I do not remember her saying that, but I remember she said she did not think he did it for he was not over here, for the other man was sick, and he was obliged to stay on the farm.
Q.  She did not think the Portuguese did it then.
........................

Prelim.
Fleet
355 (as noted by Susan)
I asked her if she knew anyone that had ever threatened her father, or suspected anyone that would do such a thing as kill him, and she said "no, I did not know that he had an enemy in the world." Then Miss Russell said "tell him all Lizzie, tell him about the man that you was telling me about." So then she said that about two weeks ago a man came to the door, and they had some loud talk, and the man seemed to be mad or angry. I asked her what he was talking about. She said he was talking about a store, and wanted Mr. Borden, she should judge, to let him the store; and he would not, saying that he would not let it for that purpose. I asked her if she knew who he was. She said she did not, but ??? he was a stranger, somebody out of Fall River. I asked her who else was in the house during the day or last night. She said Bridget, the work girl, she did not say Bridget, she said Maggie, the work girl, was there this forenoon. She said Bridget had been in the house in the forenoon. Well, I says "do you suspect Bridget?" She says "no, I dont." I says "where was Bridget during the time that your father---that is, at any time this morning?" She said she had been outside washing windows, and that she came in, and after her father came in, she went up stairs, as she thought, to fix her room, or make her bed; but she did not think that Bridget had anything to do with it. She said after she went up stairs, that she went up in the barn.
.................
I asked her if she thought that John V. Morse could have had anything to do with this. She said that it was impossible, because Mr. Morse went away before nine o'clock this morning, and did not come back until after the murder. I then had a conversation with Morse.

.......................
Prelim
Harrington
393
. I then asked her to be very careful to recollect if there was anybody she had any suspicion of. I says "no matter how insignificant it may appear to you, or how remote it may be from the present time, it may be of great importance to the police in ferreting out this matter, and however light it is, you will please let me know." Then she said several weeks ago there was a man called to see father, and they before parting had very angry words, the conversation became very animated. Says I "what was it about?" She said it was about a store. I says "did you see this man?" "No Sir". I asked her then how she knew that they had animated conversation and grew angry. She says "they were in one room and I was in another, and I overheard part of the conversation." "What was it"? "I heard father say, no sir, I will not let my store for any such business. He then went away." I asked her did she see him coming to or going from the house. She said no sir. She said he came back here two weeks ago, and they had another conversation, a part of which she overheard. Before they got through, she said they got quite angry again; but finally before they finished, father said, when you are in town again, come, and I will let you know more about it; so they parted. She did not see them part, but it was the last she heard, she said. Then said I, he must be a man from out of town. Well, she says "I should judge so." Then you do not know?" She said no.
...................
(--There is nothing about a suspect or an enemy in Word Searching the Trial Closing Arguments.  There may be something hidden there but the search came up empty.)

--It sounds as if Lizzie is controlling who is suspected.
She says Bridget didn't do it. Morse didn't do it.  The guy on the farm didn't do it.  But she tells Alice of a mysterious prowler and suspected poisoning of the milk.
And she tells the police of the angry words of a possible renter.  Who disappears into the ozone.
--How can she even hope to control who is suspected?
This makes HER seem suspicious.
How could she know who didn't do it unless she knew who did?

--That was most excellent, Susan.


(Message last edited Apr-23rd-03  9:21 PM.)


9. "Re: *Father had no enemy*"
Posted by haulover on Apr-23rd-03 at 9:41 PM
In response to Message #8.

it seems apparent to me that all of her "changes" made between the time the murders were discovered and the time of her inquest -- is key to the role lizzie played.

that she says both that she thought father had an enemy and also that she thinks he did not -- just adds to the confusion.  have you noticed how lizzie creates these patterns and then says something to break the pattern?  i'm glad susan found that, though, because i had felt strongly at one time that lizzie had said the same thing as morse.

if this particular descrepancy is because lizzie does not know what she should say -- that indicates that she recognizes for herself a task more difficult than simply telling the truth.

the things she denies or tries to deny at her inquest include:

that she heard a groan or distressing sound,
knew of a note,
requested a search for abby

perhaps your point in asking what you do specifically does not get into this issue, but this is where my mind wants to go with it.

i guess the bottom line is that lizzie NEVER knows for sure what she should say, and she never quite gets her story together.

at the end of her inquest, she tells of sighting a mysterious stranger, but this never connects with anything else.



10. "Re: *Father had no enemy*"
Posted by Susan on Apr-23rd-03 at 9:58 PM
In response to Message #9.

You're welcome all, my pleasure.  It sounds to me like Lizzie says to everyone that her father has an enemy, then when the police arrive, the realization dawns on her.  The police could try to track down anyone that has come to see Andrew recently, possibly she knew who the visitor was who had angry words with Andrew and decided at that point to downplay it. 

But, we now have all these witness' to Lizzie's words, she can't take them back now.  She is pretty stubborn with certain points of her tale and sticks to them, implausible as they may be.  Its maddening, to me alot of what she is asked is "either or" questions.  Either Andrew has enemies or he doesn't, which will it be Miss Borden. 


11. "Re: *Father had no enemy*"
Posted by Kat on Apr-23rd-03 at 10:22 PM
In response to Message #10.

Evening Standard
Friday, August 5, 1892  Page 8

POLICE BAFFLED.

Mystery Enshrouds Killing
of Mr. and Mrs. Borden.

No Motive Known for the Foul
Crime in Fall River.

Work of a Maniac Seems to be as
Plausible as any.

Portuguese or Swede Farm Hand
Theory is Blasted.

All the Employes Found at Work at
Gardner's Neck.

Officers Still at Sea as to the
Whereabouts of Murderer.

Spatters of Blood Showing a Struggle
in the Sitting Room.

Bodies of the Murdered Couple
Mutilated Beyond Recognition.

[Special dispatch.]
Fall River, Aug. 4. --

"...He Had Been Most Foully Butchered."

"Lizzie Borden, the daughter, says that she was not aware that her father had an enemy in the world.  Her father, she says, was on friendly terms with all of his tenants.
The police have sent over to Borden's farm to learn about the Swede.
As before stated, everybody is at a loss in accounting for the crime, and until some satisfactory explanation is given murder will be the town talk.

Farm Hand Theory Blasted.

The Swede or Portuguese farm hand theory has been blasted, as all the farm hands were at work.  The police are still at sea as to the whereabouts of the murderer."
..........
Monday, August 8, 1892  Page 2

"NOTHING BUT THEORIES"

"...He [Hanscomb] had attempted to discover if Mr. Borden had any enemy capable of the deed.  The family and Mr. Jennings could recall but one person who had a serious difference with the murdered man, and that was not of a nature to arouse suspicion in the present instance."...

[--Maybe this refers to Hiram Harrington?]
..............

"[By Associated Press.]
Fall River, Aug. 29. ---
It was when Lizzie was sitting on the stairs that Lizzie said her father must have an enemy.  It was when a policeman suggested that some of the farm hands had done the deed that Lizzie said it could not be so for one man was sick, and the other had to stay on the farm; furthermore she would not suspect either of them in connection with this case. "--[paraphrased of Miss Russell]
.................

Wednesday, August 10, 1892  Page 2

RELEASED FROM CUSTODY.

The Police Place Confidence in
Bridget Sullivan.


"This remarkable feature of the case, of course, deepens the distinct impression which has been prevalent since the day of the crime was discovered, that the authorities are unfriendly to the family, or at least, find reasons to make them strongly suspect that the

Misses Borden Know More or Less About
the Case
.

It is very seldom that when a murder is committed in a family, the family is not taken into the confidence of the police, and much more seldom that a family has to prepare to fight the law officers of a whole city and county."


12. "Re: *Father had no enemy*"
Posted by Tina-Kate on Apr-24th-03 at 12:33 AM
In response to Message #11.

I find that last bit particularly interesting.  As investigative/forensic techniques have evolved, we now know that those people who are closest to a murder victim are very likely to have been the one(s) to have done the deed, or to know exactly who did.


13. "Re: *Father had no enemy*"
Posted by Susan on Apr-24th-03 at 11:41 AM
In response to Message #12.

That last bit is interesting for the reason that it sounds like the police shared what info they had on the murders with Emma and Lizzie.  Perhaps why Lizzie changed her stories so much, to fit the info given? 


14. "Re: *Father had no enemy*"
Posted by Carol on Apr-24th-03 at 3:01 PM
In response to Message #13.

I read that last part differently, to mean the police had faith in Bridget but were not taking the family into their confidence because they thought the family knew something they weren't saying.


15. "Re: *Father had no enemy*"
Posted by rays on Apr-24th-03 at 7:09 PM
In response to Message #9.

The logical analysis of any murdered person is that they "had an enemy" even if you don't know it. This could be said about just about any murder victim.

But it does not mean that you'd know the man. Particularly if a serial killer, since their lack of prior connection to the victim leaves no clues.

(Message last edited Apr-25th-03  11:25 AM.)


16. "Re: *Father had no enemy*"
Posted by rays on Apr-25th-03 at 11:26 AM
In response to Message #12.

I read or heard on TV that "the last person to see the victime alive" IS the functional description of the killer. But who would that be?



 

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