Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden
Topic Name: If I Were Bridget...

1. "If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-10th-03 at 3:09 PM

When Morse leaves on Thursday morning out the side door while Andrew spoke to him, Bridget was nearby and heard the question.
She said Andrew asked Morse if he would return for dinner.
Bridget is asked if she heard his ANSWER?
Bridget says "No".

If I were Bridget , and if I wasn't too interested in other people's conversation...there WOULD be 2 things I would want to know that morning.
What work Mrs. Borden had for me to complete, and whether there would be a guest at dinner!
In fact, that answer, out of all the snatches of conversation I overheard, would directly affect ME and I think I would strain to hear the answer.  Just that one answer...


2. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by bobcook848 on Feb-10th-03 at 8:02 PM
In response to Message #1.

Kat: was that when she (Bridget) was near the barn heaving her boots up from being sick?  If she were as ill as she said and vomiting with any force she may not have even heard the birds chirping or the pears falling.  I have had stomach flu and sour stomach from tainted food and when I have heaved I couldn't even think let alone hear.  Just a thought....

BC


3. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-10th-03 at 11:05 PM
In response to Message #2.

Yea she was throwing up soon after...within, say five minutes?
She doesn't care about a very short answer?
A tiny answer as to dinner?

Maybe she was feeling dull & incurious?


4. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by haulover on Feb-10th-03 at 11:17 PM
In response to Message #3.

kat:

you're deliberately straining to find bridget guilty? we must exhaust every possibility, but i have never been able to seriously entertain "the maid did it" theory.  my intuition, for whatever it's worth, rejects the notion.


5. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-11th-03 at 12:23 AM
In response to Message #4.

Oh this simple question is just that--a mystery of human nature.
By examining these little quirks I may discover more of her personality.  I would need to know Bridget/Maggie much better before I could begin to presume of what she is capable.
I'm not going that fast...


6. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Susan on Feb-11th-03 at 12:50 AM
In response to Message #5.

I agree, since Bridget serves the food and cooks the food, I would think she would want to know if there was going to be another mouth to feed at the table.  But, then I thought, the lunch was going to be warmed up mutton again and Bridget was just going to add some potatoes to the broth or soup.  So, I guess it really wouldn't be that much work for her one way or the other?

It just made me wonder if Abby ever knew of Andrew's plan to have John back for lunch?  And why Bridget didn't ask Abby when she told her to wash the windows, will Mr. Morse be having lunch here today?  Odd, but, maybe to Bridget it was none of her affair? 

(Message last edited Feb-11th-03  12:51 AM.)


7. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-11th-03 at 4:03 AM
In response to Message #6.

Now I am Bridget and I have gone out to see my friends Wednesday evening.  I went all around a few blocks.
I got back later than anyone...I was the last one in and to bed.
(I could have got back even later than I said, as who's to know?)
I got up at 6:15 and I had a dull headache.
What have I been doing?


8. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Susan on Feb-11th-03 at 12:12 PM
In response to Message #7.

  Drinking 'til the cows came home, woo hoo!  Wow, I never thought of that, poor ol' Bridget could have had a terrible hangover.  Oh, wouldn't that be something? 


9. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by kimberly on Feb-11th-03 at 12:48 PM
In response to Message #8.

Oooooh! What if she brought a feller back to her
room & he turned out to be a nut & before she could get
rid of him he goes crazy & hacks Abby & then him & Bridget
fools around and then Andy gets home & he goes crazy & kills
him & then to keep Lizzie from blabbing he fools around
with her too?


10. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Feb-11th-03 at 12:58 PM
In response to Message #1.

I will provide Uncle John's answer, and explain why.
First, there are those who say Bridget was rewarded for not telling all. Maybe that's true. Not that she hid evidence of murder.

When asked if he would return, Uncle John just shook his head "NO" (we've all done this hundreds of time), so Bridget heard no answer.
Later, after Lizzie sent Dr Bowen to recall Uncle John, he now said he would return for lunch. But then there would have been no need to send Dr Bowen to recall him!!

You are free to consider this answer; I just used logic and how people act nowadays.


11. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by diana on Feb-11th-03 at 1:09 PM
In response to Message #6.

Regarding Bridget's concerns about another mouth to feed.  In the Preliminary Hearing Bridget says:

"She [Mrs. Borden] said John was in the house.   .....   I told her there was nothing, sure, but soup and cold mutton.  She said she thought they would have that for dinner.  She says there will be plenty for dinner too." (Prelim.p.57)

So it looks like both women were thinking ahead to the next meal.  Bridget worried that there was only the soup and cold mutton -- but Abby decided John could be accommodated with the provisions on hand.


12. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-11th-03 at 4:59 PM
In response to Message #11.

That's good. And if Lizzie rarely eats with them she could probably be discounted at table?
We have to believe Bridget, too, though, right?
There is not a witness to that conversation, like there is when Morse is asked back.
But that is probably valid.
What about Abby supposedly telling Lizzie she will get the meat while she is out?
Is that today's meat?
Do these two diverge once again?

---Kimberly, you hit a nail on a head I was thinking in my sleep overnight!  I wondered if Bridget brought back someone!  They'd have to be awfully quiet, because of just being above the elder Borden's.
But I pictured her sneaking in the murderer on purpose, as a plan!  There was a question as to whether Lizzie could have done that when SHE came home...why not Bridget?
She IS questioned about men-friends...


13. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by kimberly on Feb-11th-03 at 8:14 PM
In response to Message #12.

I posted something awhile back -- I forgot what I was
thinking then, something about perhaps Bridget was followed
home by someone who lurked around in the house -- I think
it is quite possible she brought home a man who was a bit
"unbalanced". I have always thought it was very possible
that something like that might have happened & wasn't greed
or Lizzie or anything --- just the wrong person there.


14. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Susan on Feb-12th-03 at 1:23 AM
In response to Message #11.

Good find, Diana!  Thanks, so, Abby did sound as if she planned on having John Morse on her hands for awhile.


15. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-12th-03 at 3:20 AM
In response to Message #14.

Yes, Diana, I think you found another radical difference in Lizzie's version and Bridget's.
You showed that Bridget was already primed by the Mistress of the house as to dinner plans, in case.
But Lizzie tells the tale she is embellishing constantly... terrible littany of her last words with Abby...(The part that made me hate Lizzie for a while)...that Abby finally asked her what kind of meat she wanted for dinner, that she would get the meat.  (Inq., 80)

--This was the part that really got to me.  When Lizzie is asked over & over to repeat all that was said by Abby as her last words and it sounds so awful.  Just a frustrated, sterile accounting of this mother's final words to Lizzie- - I wish I could know if there was any emotion expressed here other than the battling of wits and wills between a lawyer and an ungrateful girl squabbling over the dead and bloody body of that woman who never deserved to die like that, or be stripped naked in her home with her modesty abandoned as a Victim with no rights, to be irregularly sutured, and to ultimately have her head cut off and boiled and brought to court....it''s horrible.
She had no rights as a victim because at first she wasn't even included in the charge of murder against Lizzie!

(Message last edited Feb-12th-03  3:20 AM.)


16. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Susan on Feb-12th-03 at 7:32 PM
In response to Message #15.

Well put, Kat.  One can almost hear Lizzie sighing and rolling her eyes before she repeats her little list of what Abby supposedly said to her.  Not even something like this poor woman was concerned for my wellfare and wanted to know what I wanted for dinner and now she is dead.

From Lizzie's version, it sounds as though she had more conversation that day with Abby than she did with Andrew.  And she doesn't seem to be too broken up that she was telling Andrew that Abby had gone out when she found out later on(if not guilty) that Abby was already dead.  Don't you think that would hit you that you had told someone something like that? 

(Message last edited Feb-12th-03  7:34 PM.)


17. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-12th-03 at 8:33 PM
In response to Message #16.

I wondered if it was just me that read that section of the Inquest that way.
It was similar to the round-about questioning and shadowy answers she gave to the *Sinker & Fishing Line* story that Knowlton examined so thoroughly.
I don't think that man understood our Lizzie, or where her *buttons* were?
Do you suppose a woman, say Marcia Clark, could have got more out of Lizzie?


18. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by haulover on Feb-12th-03 at 9:57 PM
In response to Message #17.

i've also thought a lot about knowlton questioning her about the sinkers/fishing lines, etc.  it has shades of what many people seem to think of as gender difference in reasoning.

though i would more specifically describe it this way:  knowlton keeps expecting lizzie to follow him in a linear sort of pattern, keeping in view the PURPOSE of the questioning.  she, on the other hand, seems to be talking out of her personal knowledge of sinkers/lines, etc. outside the context of the murders.

it's hard to say.  am i making sense?  for example, he wants to know why she would look for a sinker in particular at that particular time.  and she refers to lines/sinkers at the farm (in his mind, as though that's where she is going to fish).  but it's irrelevant in terms of what he's asking.  it comes out when she says, "i couldn't get them."

she wants to talk about what she knows of lines and sinkers in general.  he wants to know why she went about as she did concerning them.


19. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by haulover on Feb-12th-03 at 10:01 PM
In response to Message #16.

***From Lizzie's version, it sounds as though she had more conversation that day with Abby than she did with Andrew.  And she doesn't seem to be too broken up that she was telling Andrew that Abby had gone out when she found out later on(if not guilty) that Abby was already dead.  Don't you think that would hit you that you had told someone something like that?***

that's a good point i had not exactly thought of.  an innocent person might have volunteered at least an impression in restrospect?

 


20. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by haulover on Feb-12th-03 at 10:15 PM
In response to Message #15.

i know what you mean.  like she was responding to some tiresome academic exercise.

it makes me think of this from harrington:

"Lizzie stood by the foot of the bed, and talked in the most calm and collected manner; her whole bearing was most remarkable under the circumstances.  There was not the least indication of agitation, no sign of sorrow or grief, no lamentation of the heart, no comment on the horror of the crime, and no expression of a wish that the criminal be caught.  All this, and something that, to me, is indescribable, gave birth to a thought that was most revolting.  I thought, at least, she knew more than she wished to tell."  later he tells someone else of his suspicion and that "i don't like that girl." 

i place a lot of value on observations such as this (as with what eli bence said about her eyes in terms of certainty of recognition).

in particular i'm drawn to this phrase:  "all this, and something that, to me, is indescribable..."  could someone explain this phrase?  is he saying there was something about her, in addition to what he already said, that he can not name or explain -- which made him suspicious?  did he see some "je ne sais quoa"? (sp? it's been a long time i studied french)  sometimes it's just the style of the language used at the time.  i can't always tell. 


21. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-12th-03 at 10:39 PM
In response to Message #20.

I think if it is *indescribable* it is not something that can be explained.
And it probably would mean something different to each person who met Lizzie, if they had a similar reaction.

There must have been something about her, at that time and in that place that accosted his sensibilities and led to that revolting intuition about Lizzie as somehow involved in the deaths.

It may have to do with his ideal of womanhood, of good daughters, and shy, retiring girls who do not *put themselves forward* or call attention to themselves.  He may be revolted partly at Lizzie's self-containment, expecting a withering flower who is hysterical and needs solace.  His expectations of Victorian womanhood?

I believe it's possible that Harrington knew her before, as well.

(Message last edited Feb-12th-03  10:40 PM.)


22. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by haulover on Feb-12th-03 at 11:55 PM
In response to Message #21.

***There must have been something about her, at that time and in that place that accosted his sensibilities and led to that revolting intuition about Lizzie as somehow involved in the deaths.***

that's exactly what i'm calling attention to.  we can't know from his words what he is referring to -- but it strikes me, intuitively speaking, as genuine.  just as i still think that bence's remembrance of that "peculiar expression about the eyes" is a sign of genuine recognition of her.  i don't mean to say a "recognition of evil" but just something in particular noted, even if in a glance in passing. 

harrington "senses" something he tends to believe.  these type reactions point either toward truth or deliberate deception.  i know a lot of her defense had to do with the theory that she was being mistreated.  but what evidence is there that anyone had a reason to want to mistreat her?  i know a lot of myth has been built up against her since, but at the time what was there to observe about her but her own behavior?

i know what you're saying about his probable sensibilities toward women.  and some people are naturally aloof and don't show true feelings.  which is not even a gender issue but a matter of personal temperament and personality.

you remember the susan smith case?  someone later pointed out something to me that i missed at the time.  they said that (before the truth came out) every time she was on tv talking about it  she was obviously "pretending" to cry, that no actual tears ever appeared on her face.  i wondered if that was in the nature of what harrington observed.  of course, there is nothing substantial to refer to.  i'm just wondering, but it's worth considering -- did he see something in her akin to relief or satisfaction?  i know this is out on a limb, but if you try to follow lizzie, you're always out on a limb. 

and i don't mean to say that this is a solution by any means.  now i'm remembering her account of finding her father:  i have a problem with this similar to yours in her recounting her conversation with abby.  essentially she says she saw the blood on his face and ran from it in fear.  is that a natural reaction from a girl who loves her father?  as a male, let me imagine this is my mother with her face bashed in.  i don't "run from it" -- I "run to it."  i speak.  i shake her, i check pulse.  somehow i spend some time there.  i don't "run."  now...is this a gender difference?

i admit i am in a "lizzie is guilty" mode right now, but i'm looking for a way out of it to get a different perspective, but i haven't found it yet.

i can't find credibility with the "maid is guilty" theory even though there are questions in terms of dry "fact."  i see the innocuous maid.  i don't see motive or temperament.  her testimony is not "weird" unless you compare it to lizzie's. 

i'd appreciate any suggestions you have since you've spent more time on it than i have.  i might need to get away from it entirely for a while in order to get a productive angle.



23. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Robert Harry on Feb-13th-03 at 12:55 PM
In response to Message #20.

Yes, you're on to something here.  We all know that much (maybe even most) communication is NOT done by words.  "Something indescribable" contains all of that "sixth sense" intuition, "vibes", etc. that, in our highly rational Western mindset we tend to push aside in favor of pure reason or scientific method.  I agree, these kinds of statements are extemely valuable precisely because those who report them are saying something about Lizzie's NON-VERBAL communication--something which is lost to us forever (all we have now are words).
Without getting overly analytic I really wonder if this "coldness" on the part of Lizzie indicates either extreme denial or even sociopathic behavior.  I've always thought that Lizzie's demeanor was far more than just a reserved person  who "doesn't like to show her emotions in public."  Even the coldest person would react, IMO, with some grief in the midst of such horror.
I recently read something in the NY Times about the FBI's new DNA database--where they found a criminal over 40 years after he murdered two cops in California.  This man had gone up to a car in a lover's lane, killed the boy and raped the girl, then killed the cops--one of the reasons why he had not been apprehended was that he led a perfectly BLAMELESS life afterwards.  So it is possible for someone to commit heinous crimes, and live the rest of life as a respectable citizen. 
I don't think Lizzie's answers indicate "gender reasoning differences"--I think they indicate something peculiar about her thought process, or maybe show how deep her denial really was.  BTW, haulover, I love your posts--keep going!!


24. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Feb-13th-03 at 2:16 PM
In response to Message #22.

Maybe this is an example where the truth is in the eye of the beholder? Didn't somebody say Harrington used to work for Andy years before? Maybe he had it in for the family? Do NOT overlook prior personal emotions as the reason why. IMO


25. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Feb-13th-03 at 2:19 PM
In response to Message #23.

I happen to know of a case where the son came to see his father and found his hand cold and clammy; a heart attack in his chair. Didn't cry then, or at the funeral, but many months later when suddenly reminded of it when watching a show on TV. Some people are cold or shy or reserved, emotionally. True?


26. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Feb-13th-03 at 2:21 PM
In response to Message #23.

The cold facts are: Bridget was seen outside when Abby was done in, and, Lizzie was seen outside when Andy was done it (some quibbles about the time?). Neither young woman could have done both, in fact or by temperament. I think Radin's pointing to Bridget was just a way to sell books, and question the assumptions of Lizzie's guilt.


27. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-13th-03 at 5:18 PM
In response to Message #26.

When and where and by whom was Bridget seen outside that Thursday morning?

When and where and by whom was Lizzie seen outside that Thursday morning?

You can use this whole Forum site to find the answers.
I am going for a walk.
Be back soon...


28. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by kimberly on Feb-13th-03 at 5:32 PM
In response to Message #25.

Good point, Ray. A lot of people don't show their emotions
at all -- and Lizzie seemed to be very much in control of her
self. But still you would think some fear would have surfaced
after she walked in & found him -- who would stay there by
themselves after seeing that someone had been attacked? Why send
the only other living person in the house away? Wouldn't most
people run away screaming & leave everyone behind? I wouldn't have
stayed there with a killer in the house.


29. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Feb-13th-03 at 5:45 PM
In response to Message #27.

Now, Kat, you know as well as me that Ellan Eagan, and the Kelly maid, saw Bridget outside around 9:30Am, etc. And that Hyman Lubinsky saw a young woman by the back stairs, as if she just came from the barn.

Why are you playing these games?


30. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Feb-13th-03 at 5:47 PM
In response to Message #28.

Yes, IF there was a killer in the house. But Lizzie must have seen the visitor (Nemesis) leave before she entered. And she did stay at the back stairs, and observed by her neighbor.

I don't believe she sent Bridget away to let Nemesis escape unnoticed.


31. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by kimberly on Feb-13th-03 at 6:03 PM
In response to Message #30.

But what if she really did come in from the barn
to find him dead -- who would stay there alone?
Why stick around & be next?


32. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by haulover on Feb-13th-03 at 8:53 PM
In response to Message #31.

i admit i may be stretching something to make as much out of lizzie's reaction to finding andrew -- i mean, the conclusion i tried to draw is very speculative.  i have a cousin who, as a child, came home from school and found her father dead in bed from a heart attack.  she stood in doorway and called to him; he did not answer or move; suspecting him dead, she called my mother, who went to the house.  my mother earnestly tried to wake him (her brother), using every means she could think of, even something as desperate as rubbing his face with a wet cloth (the whole time really knowing the truth).  but my cousin had been afraid to enter the room.  (child's reaction vs. that of an adult?)  so i don't know.

but your point raises another question.  if a murderer may be lurking, why stay in the house as lizzie did? even after sending bridget out.



33. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by kimberly on Feb-13th-03 at 9:35 PM
In response to Message #32.

Does that prove her guilt better than anything else could?
No fear at who might have still been lurking? That is one
of the things that makes her look guilty to me -- I can't
imagine why she would have stayed behind if she was innocent.
Can people just be so dazed by a sight like that they forget
to be afraid for their own safety? Even if she stayed by the
door she could have still been attacked. 


34. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by haulover on Feb-13th-03 at 11:23 PM
In response to Message #33.

it does make her look guilty.  and why call for a doctor as opposed to the police?  and whoever can shed some light on this, please do:  in her testimony, lizzie says she thought father was "hurt."  by all witness accounts in the immediate aftermath, lizzie says he was "dead," "killed," "murdered." or "stabbed."  and i may be missing another, but she clearly understood he was dead at the time.  it's later when she uses the word, "hurt."  that's why knowlton badgers her a bit at this point, asking her if she "saw his eyeball hanging out."  whether she swung the axe herself or not, she knew he was murdered and dead.


35. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-14th-03 at 12:52 AM
In response to Message #33.

Some people think Lizzie should have rushed to Andrew's side and checked to see for sure if he was dead.
Even unto throwing herself upon his bloodied body and crying out in lamentation.

Other's believe that she should have seen with one look, got terribly scared and rushed out of the house screaming.

Whichever you choose she did the right thing, because she was found not guilty & without any blood on her.


36. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Feb-14th-03 at 3:26 PM
In response to Message #34.

The way I heard it (family history), when Grandma didn't awake that afternoon at home, they sent for an ambulance (implies Doctor), rather than the police. Isn't this still true today?


37. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Susan on Feb-14th-03 at 8:39 PM
In response to Message #36.

Yeah, I guess that would be true.  You would need a physician to sign the death certificate and I assume to make sure that there was no hanky-panky involved with the death of the person.


38. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by haulover on Feb-15th-03 at 12:10 AM
In response to Message #36.

well, there is a difference between a natural death and a murder, isn't there?


39. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-15th-03 at 2:50 AM
In response to Message #38.

Emma says when she returned from out of town, she only asked 2 questions of Bridget.

1--was-- "Will you stay?"
2--was --did you see any boy come with a note?

If I were Bridget, speaking to Miss Borden, after all I had been through that day, I would have been blabbing my mouth off in nervousness.

Just because Emma only says she asked two questions, doesn't mean that Bridget didn't Offer all kinds of info?  hmmm?  Yet Emma says "She did not tell me anything." (Inq. 113)

(Message last edited Feb-15th-03  2:53 AM.)


40. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by redfern on Feb-15th-03 at 1:34 PM
In response to Message #35.

Perhaps it was shock. I mean I have known people in shock to just not cry, not scream, not move, not think or anything. I think shock would be logical after all that had happened, with murdered loved ones and such. She waited in the house for someone to come help. Just my opinion though.
  Red


41. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Susan on Feb-15th-03 at 2:03 PM
In response to Message #39.

Perhaps what Bridget told Emma that day offered not solution to the murders, especially after she had already heard Lizzie's version of it.  So, in essence Bridget didn't tell her anything---helpful, or new, so different from Lizzie's story.

But, there is that one point that Emma seems to want clarified, if the note delivery boy was actually there.  Sounds to me as if she has doubts about Lizzie's story, hmmmmm, does Emma know her Baby Lizzie that well to know when she is telling falsehoods?  And this is from the moment she arrives home, not after hours and days of police questioning.  Do you think that perhaps Miss Emma holds the key to the Borden murders with what she knows and could tell? 


42. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-15th-03 at 8:30 PM
In response to Message #41.

I understand what you mean and that would make sense, yes.
BUT
Emma says there was no talk at all  (? I  just don't GET this! ?)
It's not human nature, unless she already had an idea , as you say....

Inquest
Emma
113+
Q.  After you got home that night, you did not hear Maggie say anything about where she was when the thing happened?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Nor have any talk with her at all?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Did you see your sister then when you came home?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  What did she say about it?
A.  I dont know, there was so much going on.

--And yes, it seems that the messenger is more important than the note, at least to Emma...

Trial
Emma
1566+
Q.  And did that notice also include a request for the messenger as well as the writer of the note?
A.  I think that it did.  It requested the one that carried it.
Q.  Didn't mention anything about the writer, but messenger, or both?
A.  I think it referred to the messenger.
Q.  Don't you think on reflection that it referred both to the one who wrote it and the one who brought it?
A.  I don't know.  I didn't see the advertisement.
Q.  Have you made any other search besides that?
A.  For the writer or the messenger?
Q.  Yes, for either the or messenger or writer?
A.  No, sir




(Message last edited Feb-15th-03  8:31 PM.)


43. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Susan on Feb-16th-03 at 3:35 PM
In response to Message #42.

I don't know if these messanger boys were an established business or just some boy you grabbed off the street and asked him to deliver a note for a few cents?

But, at any rate, I would think that any messanger boy worth his salt would be able to tell you, if found, where and who the note originated with.  Perhaps that is where Emma's mind was when she had that ad posted?

As for there being no talk, well, there doesn't seem to be as much detail on when Emma got home, what she did, what she said, etc.  She may have been so distraught that everyone thought it best not to say anything more to her about what had happened that day?  Maybe the police told Bridget not to speak to anyone else after they spoke to her that day?  I'm at a loss as to why there wasn't more conversation when Emma got home?  Maybe she chose not to have anyone say anything to her about it, don't talk to me about this, I can't take it. 


44. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Feb-16th-03 at 3:52 PM
In response to Message #43.

The fact that the sender of the note NEVER contacted the police is certainly "curious". Again, Brown may have the best solution to this: it was send to draw Abby away from the house, innocently, so Andy could speak freely with his visitor (William S Borden). The sender was then told to keep their mouth SHUT, or else!


45. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-17th-03 at 12:06 AM
In response to Message #43.

That reminds me that Emma was apparently *let off easy* in her Inquest questioning because she wasn't feeling well.

Apparently she is left out of the Prelim. and her next call wouldn't be until the grand jury in November...

She could forget quite a bit in the meantime, or rationalize, or close her eyes...not like those who were always in the spotlight and testifying right & left, locking them into their statements?

Maybe she just didn't want to know?  The Legend movie has her haring off to Fairhaven the second she see's Lizzie acting *that way*.


46. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-17th-03 at 5:43 PM
In response to Message #43.

Maybe Emma took some morphine?
Why do we always think she is stronger willed and has more of the back-bone of the sisters?  When it seems Lizzie is the one with those qualities.
One of the books has Emma going away a lot to get drunk in hotel rooms...I don't even remember which book that was!

Back to being Bridget for me...
I doubt I would return to "do the work", after being away Thursday night.
What could the Borden family possibly do to give me incentive to return for a few days?


47. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Susan on Feb-17th-03 at 9:19 PM
In response to Message #46.

More money?  I don't know if Emma offered, but, to return to that charnel house to work again?  Bridget had an excuse now to leave, wasn't it stated by her that in the past she wanted to leave a few times and Abby persuaded her otherwise?  Do you think Abby may have been the only reason that Bridget stayed on and now gone, what was to hold her there?

I wish there was more written about what Emma did and said when she returned home that day.  I wonder why Alice wasn't asked?  Did Emma break down and cry?  Was she as steadfast as Lizzie?  Did she ask Dr. Bowen for a prescription also? 


48. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-18th-03 at 12:55 AM
In response to Message #47.

Is that the Nellie McHenry letter you refer to?
From Knowlton Papers?
I doubt you will find a primary source that says Bridget wanted to leave in the past, but that Abby asked her to stay.
I was wondering if, not more money, but no money?  Maybe those girls said she wouldn't be paid, as it was the very beginning of the month.. .. that she at least had to work a week.  Since she did stay days through Saturday, (the funeral) maybe almost a week was required of her to get paid a full quarter of that months wages.
At first I thought, I am Bridget and I am Irish Catholic and I am superstitious...and I would not want to stay in that house of death.
Then I thought, I am Bridget and I am Irish Catholic and my tradition is a Wake and that life is hard and short with lot's of work, and I will help out till the funeral and then I'll be gone?
What do you think?


49. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Susan on Feb-18th-03 at 1:58 AM
In response to Message #48.

Oh, is that where that was from?  Well, drop that idea then. 

What I get when I put myself in Bridget's shoes is; I'm superstitious, the killer might come back and finish off the job, I can't sleep in that house, I want to get paid my wages due.  I don't want to work for these girls, Lizzie has been acting strange, I don't want to be around her.  Its my Christian duty to help them out, but, the Lord helps those who help themselves.

Plus Bridget may have felt that the family looked at her suspiciously as they huddled around Lizzie.  Do you think that the girls were really that hardnosed when it came to Bridget's wages?  I could see it happening, thats for sure. 


50. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-18th-03 at 2:23 AM
In response to Message #49.

OOO, you're really good at this!

[BTW: I didn't double-check that source...should I?]

Yes, I see a superstitious Bridget, and she could be thinking they are all acting strangely...going quiet when I enter a room...whisperings...those dead bodies in the dining room--maybe they will eventually point at ME?

It's odd that Bridget left to sleep away that Thursday night, but NOT Morse, Not Lizzie, Not Emma, Not Alice!


51. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Susan on Feb-18th-03 at 11:31 AM
In response to Message #50.

I'll have to try and do a search later on today after work, I can't recall where I read it?

I forgot to add that in Bridget's shoes, I mutter prayers to myself to comfort and sustain me through this mess.  Perhaps my Rosary beads are in my dress pocket too.

I suppose that Lizzie and Emma could have gone and slept at Alice's house, but, I was thinking as a lady and a Borden; would one want to be seen out in the streets after this tragedy?  People will point and whisper, no, far better to stay inside, Uncle John has offered to go to get the mail, let him.  I'm thinking of the first night after the murders here.  After that, the Borden backbone may have kicked in, this is our house and we shan't stay elsewhere, why should we? 

(Message last edited Feb-18th-03  11:32 AM.)


52. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Feb-18th-03 at 4:21 PM
In response to Message #49.

I remember the testimony saying that Abby got along best with Bridget, and kept her on even when Bridget wanted to leave.
Isn't that believable? W/O Abby there, Bridget left, as she wanted to do earlier. No more dealing with those girls?


53. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-18th-03 at 5:35 PM
In response to Message #52.

Have you read "testimony" that is from a primary source?
I was just re-learning last night that what might be transcribed as "testimony" in the author's books is not generally faithful to the original, and therefore probably should not be termed *Testimony*.  More precisely, it is trascribed and paraphrased.  Unless you have the primary source, we should probably call it something else, like a *statement*, maybe?  There should be a word we can use that difines this difference.

As to the Nellie McHenry letter, it is in there, Knowlton Papers, pg. 35:
"She further stated that she made up her mind three times to leave their (sic) and gave in her notice but Mrs. Borden coaxed her to stay and once raised her wages Mrs. Borden was so good that Bridget stayed but was intending to leave?...."

Sorry I did not get to this until just now.  I pretty much depended and trusted my memory and I did get sidetracked last night.
I know few have this book, so I should have answered sooner.


54. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Susan on Feb-18th-03 at 10:03 PM
In response to Message #53.

Okay, Kat, I checked through all the source material I have.  I can find nothing about Bridget wanting to leave. 


55. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-19th-03 at 1:47 AM
In response to Message #54.

That was a good idea, I think.
Thanks for doing that, Susan.


56. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Feb-19th-03 at 3:58 PM
In response to Message #55.

Given the fact that Bridget never (?) stayed another night in that house, and soon moved out, the story of her wanting to leave seems valid. Would either lawyer ask her this in the trial? "Irrelevant and immaterial."


57. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-19th-03 at 6:05 PM
In response to Message #56.

Bridget stayed with the Miller's girl Thursday night but came back Friday and stayed Friday night in the house at #92...that was her last night there.
But she did return again Saturday to *do the work*--by Sunday she did not return, and Sunday is the day that Lizzie burned a dress or part of a dress.

The story of Bridget wanting to leave is aStory--a person might want to know that it is not in testimony, and once they do know the source, then they can make up their own mind as to how believable it is.
That's why we are attempting to discover what might be the nature of Bridget, so we might determine if she could be involved in the crime, if she might have a motive, what her relationship was with the girls...especially when we find that the only two questions asked of her by Emma were, :*Will you stay?* and  *Did you see someone bring a note?*

Wouldn't you be curious as to WHY Emma did not speak more to Bridget?
As we delve into the dynamics of the living situation we may decide that Emma was a snob and just simply did not deal with Bridget ever, and so, after living with the family for almost 3 years, Bridget had no more loyalty there once her employer was dead.  (Besides which her employer was Mr. Borden).

Or we may think that Emma was so wrapped up in the horror and dealing with Lizzie and dealing with her own conscience (?) that she gave no thought to Bridget, other than to want to know, from a practical standpoint, would there be a servant there to run the household during this trying time?

Or ever wonder why Emma, who had been away didn't PESTER Bridget with questions, as the only other person to survive in that house of horrors that day, especially if Lizzie was sedated somewhat in her room?

And IF Emma really DID ask Bridget everything why would she lie about it!?  Did they make a deal?

Since we don't know what went on in the house amongst those people over that weekend, we are trying to imagine what went on...something must have...they did not stop living and breathing and interacting just because we don't have a statement to what went on or much testimony about it.

BTW:  My dictionary defines *testimony* as a statement under oath.  If it is not in the court records it might reduce misunderstandings if it was referred to as a *statement* in future?  Or any word synonymous?  Including the Witness Statements, as they are not sworn?


58. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Feb-20th-03 at 5:30 PM
In response to Message #57.

Thanks for reminding me of the difference between 'statement' and 'testimony'. I'll try to do better, unless I forget.


59. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Feb-20th-03 at 5:33 PM
In response to Message #57.

'Speculation' is what they call imagining any conversation between Emma and Bridget at that time. Note that Bridget left their employ as soon as possible. Then worked elsewhere, when a material witness.

People gossiped that Bridget was paid off after she testified in a new plum outfit. Perhaps her new job just paid better? That's another "factoid" about the case. I don't believe Bridget did anything illegal, but any employee KNOWS which side of the bread is buttered (even if they eat both sides).


60. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-20th-03 at 7:40 PM
In response to Message #59.

Ya, I'm beginning to wonder myself if Bridget were paid off for something.
(It's kind of funny to click on New Messages and see the "Tree View" of responses and there it says: "If I Were Bridget...Ray".)

And ya, it's speculation what went on in that house over that weekend, but that is the time I am most interested in and we don't know much!  So I have to play *pretend*.

Were you ever into acting/theatre and you had to get inside the mind of somebody?
It seems as if Susan is pretty good at this but where is she?


61. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Susan on Feb-20th-03 at 9:08 PM
In response to Message #60.

I'm still here!  Just was really tired last night, couldn't think past gibberish.

More speculation on my part, but, I'm Bridget, my job skills lie in housekeeping and cooking.  If I tell all that I know of the Bordens, no one will give me work in the near future; a servant that can't keep their mouth shut cannot be trusted.  I need a good reference from them when I go to get a new job, I'm concerned about my future.

Mr. Jennings has visited me with an envelope filled with cash, he says Miss Emma would like to thank me for not telling all of the family's little secrets.  He says that Miss Emma told him to tell me that there will be more if I continue in this way at the trial. Jesus, Mary and Joseph, this is more money than I make in half a year's time!

This is the little scenario that goes through my mind, Bridget didn't tell all she knew, damned if she did and damned if she didn't.  And I think Emma helped her off down the road a little ways.  Getting money for something that you were going to do anyway must have been a godsend to Bridget. 


62. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-21st-03 at 12:49 AM
In response to Message #61.

This sounds reasonable to me.
Bridget must have heard or seen something!
She is so definite in the one thing we can't believe--That she saw no one around there that day!
There were plenty of people around there that day.
She is either lying about seeing no one or she wasn't where she said she was in order to see anyone...


63. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Susan on Feb-21st-03 at 3:05 AM
In response to Message #62.

I agree, Bridget knew something.  But, how much that was, I guess we may never know.  She lived in that house, saw what went on day to day, knew the household occupants temperments.  I think even she could guess what happened by piecing together the events of August 4th.

And you bring up the interesting point that she may not have been doing what she was supposed to be doing when she said she was doing it.  But how Bridget could have snuck past Lizzie to kill Abby and make it back out of the house for Lizzie to find her there is very chancy.  Even with Andrew's murder too, Lizzie must stay out in the yard and barn long enough for Bridget to do the deed and scurry up the back stairs which would put her in view of the side door.  Then Lizzie would have to have seen or knew something, why wouldn't she rat Bridget out? 


64. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Feb-21st-03 at 4:38 PM
In response to Message #61.

This sounds very believable to me. Bridget didn't lie, she just answered the questions put to her. Controlling the questions is one way of controlling the decision, if the DA plays along.


65. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-21st-03 at 6:59 PM
In response to Message #63.

Well, I don't necessarily believe that Bridget snuck around and killed Abby and then appeared outside at the back door at 9:30 &  then to do what you described to Andrew-- but someone did!
So the odds are Even, aren't they?


66. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Susan on Feb-21st-03 at 9:07 PM
In response to Message #65.

Thats what I was thinking, but, if Lizzie had caught Bridget murdering Andrew, I think she would have ratted her out.  What would she have to lose?  But, the other way around, Bridget possibly seeing something or hearing something that she wasn't supposed to, hmmmmm. 


67. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-22nd-03 at 1:58 AM
In response to Message #66.

If Lizzie caught Bridget murdering Andrew, she would rat on her....hmmm.
Would she?
She knew someone murdered Andrew and didn't rat on them.

Are we back to even odds?

Maybe her plan of action would be to come clean only if she were found guilty.  Maybe she was a gambler.  She gets the gold if she keeps her mouth shut.
By not ratting on Bridget she gets to keep the family secrets, secret, right?  That might have meant a lot to her.


68. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by haulover on Feb-22nd-03 at 2:22 AM
In response to Message #66.

like everybody else, i don't know who bridget is, her personality, her nature, her way of thinking.  i don't think bridget is guilty of much of anything.  yet i notice this:  when she is asked questions about what she did from this point to that point, she always volunteers info about lizzie borden.  (i take this from her testimony.)  for example (and look at it for yourselves) when she answers the door for andrew and hears lizzie laugh behind her -- that is not an answer to a question but her own voluntary contribution.  just as when she talked about lizzie telling her of a sale in town -- that was not an answer to a question but a voluntary contribution. 

i've just begun to think about this, but i'm noticing how both bridget and lizzie say things about each other that imply the other's guilt. 

lizzie says that bridget had gone upstairs though she somehow opened the front door.  says she knows nothing about the keys, says bridget can explain it.

more importantly, what is vexing me now is the time difference between the two women as it relates to the last murder.   bridget says she was up in her room 3,4,5 minutes before lizzie called her.  then lizzie has herself up in the barn for 15-20 minutes.  i don't know what it means, but if bridget is correct, that is an extremely difficult thing for lizzie to pull off, i would think.

and do i have an agreement or a correction on this:  that authors about the case have tended toward a synthesis of the two different descriptions, rounding it off to about ten minutes between the time when bridget and lizzie parted and the time when lizzie called for bridget? 

and by the way, where is carol?  i could always count on her to defend lizzie.  since i tend to think she's guilty, i can't do it.   but we must have a lizzie defender.

i tend to distrust conspiracy theories.  for whatever reason, we would rather not believe it, but usually it is just as it looks.


69. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Feb-22nd-03 at 1:59 PM
In response to Message #65.

No, they are not even. The same lack of evidence against Lizzie also applies to Bridget. Plus there is the statement (not testimony, as if everything under oath is true) from Lizzie that "it wasn't Bridget".

I won't disagree if you say Bridget didn't tell all. But only answered the questions put to her by the lawyers.


70. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-22nd-03 at 8:04 PM
In response to Message #69.

The only difference, to me, between *statement* and *testimony* is a charge of perjury, which is no small thing.  The stakes are higher and there is more to lose...but otherwise I know what you mean...

Can anyone figure out WHY Lizzie would say *It wasn't Bridget*?
Doesn't that make it look like they were together the whole time and thus she KNOWS it couldn't be Bridget?
Otherwise, why should we believe her?  SHE doesn't KNOW it wasn't Bridget if She (Lizzie) was out in the barn or the yawd.
It sounds supiciously like *It wasn't Bridget, because I know who it WAS.*.  How would she get away with such a statement?

If that statement by Lizzie is why it is thought the odds are not even, then I say they still are even, until we can find a motive.
They each were there... they each had access to a weapon...they each survived...their stories conflict.

(Message last edited Feb-22nd-03  8:07 PM.)


71. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Susan on Feb-22nd-03 at 11:05 PM
In response to Message #70.

Yes, Lizzie's statement about knowing it wasn't Bridget is odd.  I wonder why she didn't say something like I was with Bridget while ironing and we spoke, she was cool, calm and collected.  Not at all like someone who was getting ready to commit murder again.  I don't think she did it, nor could be capable of doing it. 

She just doesn't add any umph to her stories.  I think it would make it more believable. 


72. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by william on Feb-23rd-03 at 10:31 AM
In response to Message #70.

It is my belief that Bridget was in possession of information that would point to Lizzie as the assassin. I also believe Lizzie offered a bribe in return for her silence. She said it wasn't Bridget because she didn't want suspicion to fall on the servant.  If the authorities focused on Bridget's involvement, she may have panicked and ratted out Lizzie - - and Lizzie certainly didn't want that!

(Message last edited Feb-23rd-03  10:34 AM.)


73. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Feb-23rd-03 at 3:02 PM
In response to Message #71.

I think Lizzie blurted this out to protect the innocent, like any good Christian lady would (then or now). She KNEW who it was! (If she knew about the visitor to see her Dad.)


74. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Feb-23rd-03 at 3:05 PM
In response to Message #72.

I totally disagree with this scenario (feeling too good to label it a fantasy). Why? Quite simply if you have something on somebody who killed once, you are in Great Danger of becoming silenced permanently.

Just last week I read about the solution to a 20-year old murder; a NY policeman who dealt with the mob and passed on information. He was silenced because he might talk to get a reduced sentence (not the only case!).


75. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Feb-23rd-03 at 3:07 PM
In response to Message #67.

But WHAT family secrets? The story of an illegitimate son seems more believable to me. Isn't there family honor, then or now?


76. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Feb-23rd-03 at 3:10 PM
In response to Message #68.

Point Number One. Witnesses are interviewed under oath BEFORE the trial. A trial can be thought of as a show put on to impress the jury. In a relaxed environment, Bridget would (?) probably say more than just answer the questions.

Did F Lee Bailey ("Defense Never Rests") say the witness should say as little as possible, and NEVER go off on related subjects? What is your experience (if any)?


77. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Feb-23rd-03 at 3:16 PM
In response to Message #68.

Note that this "time difference" makes Bridget the last person to see Andy alive (if true)? Maybe Bridget didn't count the minutes she was asleep.

The way I see it. Andy returns for his meeting with Nemesis, and talks to Lizzie ('get rid of Bridget'). So Lizzie tells about a sale. Bridget feels tired, so she is allowed to go up to rest (the reason for working her that hot August morning?). Then Lizzie leaves to give Andy privacy with Nemesis. After 15-20 minutes (?) out in the back yard, eating pears, she sees the visitor leaving, and returns to find her world shattered. She now calls Bridget (maybe wondering if she is alive?), and send her out for help. You know the rest.

The above is my well-considered (?) reconstruction of the events. Feel free to comment and criticize it, since some of you surely will!


78. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-24th-03 at 12:19 AM
In response to Message #77.

Actually I thought what William said made a lot of sense.
And if Bridget had something on Lizzie then Lizzie had something on Bridget immediately after they make a deal, right?
And who will believe one over the other?
At least Lizzie could make Bridget believe her lowly status and that she is better off complying.

So far it is agreed that Lizzie knows who killed if she didn't do it herself.  And that Bridget probably can tell a lot of things about that family that to a Victorian lady might seem as bad as prison if it got out.


79. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by haulover on Feb-24th-03 at 11:15 AM
In response to Message #77.

rays:

according to that theory, lizzie thinks that abby has already left the house?  i know she doesn't think abby is putting on pillow cases for an hour and a half.  so why does lizzie know or guess that abby is somewhere in the house dead after discovering andrew?


80. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Feb-24th-03 at 6:52 PM
In response to Message #79.

I have never been able to figure out how Bridget & Lizzie got away with not wondering where Abby was for all that time.
Neither see's her, neither wonders?
The one thing Abby did go out for, most days, was the marketing.
It sounds as if , like Mrs. Churchill, and Mrs. Emery, Abby would go out to the market every day for some fresh food or other items.
If the store was just up the street, she would be gone what 15 minutes?
(We can compare Mrs. Emery & Mrs. Churchill's trip-time that day, Thursday , as to how long it would take...including a little chat on the way home?)
BUT, Abby is out of those girls sights from 9 a.m. until 10:40, and neither cares that she is not around...no one notices?

(Ps:  Disregarding the *note*, as Abby never left, therefore the note does not enter into the equation, and it wasn't mentioned until 10:40 a.m. +)

(Message last edited Feb-24th-03  6:53 PM.)


81. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Susan on Feb-24th-03 at 9:42 PM
In response to Message #80.

It is rather curious that Bridget was never asked about the day to day habits of her mistress.  After Abby did her housecleaning, did she usually go up to her room and lie down?  Was she always all about the house?

I wonder if at some point that Bridget didn't ask Lizzie, where is Mrs. Borden, I haven't seen her all morning, and Lizzie comes back with the, O, she had a note and went out.

If Lizzie was innocent, and Abby honestly got a note for a sick call that Lizzie would have asked, even if just for Andrew's sake, where are you going and when should we expect you home by?

I think that note was just an invention by Lizzie to pacify Bridget. 


82. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Carol on Mar-9th-03 at 6:29 PM
In response to Message #81.

"and by the way, where is carol?  i could always count on her to defend lizzie.  since i tend to think she's guilty, i can't do it.   but we must have a lizzie defender."

Hi, yes, I've been gone for a while. It took a long time to read through this link but really interesting. But you must realize I am not a Lizzie defender, I only try to determine whether or not for me she was innnocent, which means I often wrest with opinions, mine and others and keep questioning where you might have come to a decision.

"It is rather curious that Bridget was never asked about the day to day habits of her mistress.  After Abby did her housecleaning, did she usually go up to her room and lie down?  Was she always all about the house?  I've often felt about Bridget that she often kept what she knew from being exposed by saying thing like "I could not tell" or maybe she really didn't care to take any notice of her employers activities except as they related to her work.  Her job was like any other job except for the peculiar fact that she lived with her employers, and maybe absence would have made the heart grow fonder rather than vague.

She did offer some insights into her own daily habits. Haulover was speaking about the time sequence during Andrew's murder.  In the Preliminary testimony Bridget did say that she did go upstairs to rest if she had time after her morning duties and before she had to prepare lunch (supper) (the noon meal). She said she had planned to go downstairs even before 11:15 that day to start it, which was her usual time. So, whether or not Lizzie knew that, she probably knew Bridget came down at around 11:15 to start lunch, so if she was the murderer then she knew she had only about 20 minutes at the most to kill her father, clean up and create an alibi because Bridget would have come down at 11:15 anyway and discovered the crime I would think.

Bridget said page 25 Prelim. and page 82 Prelim. that she went upstairs 3, 4 or 5 minutes before 11:00 and was up there 10 or 15 minutes before she heard Lizzie call for her.  We don't exactly know for sure if she went upstairs before Lizzie went out to the barn I don't think according to Bridget because she wasn't aware until later Lizzie said she was out in the barn.  And what Bridget says fits with the time period of the crime because we have about the time Andrew came home from Mrs. Kelly and the carpentry workers who saw him last downtown. He got home around 10:40 and some time was taken to go inside, talk to Lizzie, go upstairs and maybe change into his cardigan, come down, read, sit down on the couch, etc. So all that would be when Bridget got her windows done, kitchen things put away and went upstairs, l0 minutes taking it up to shortly before 11:00 that Bridget did go upstairs, unaware of the crime.  Lizzie has a similar timeline. So it doesn't fit for me Lizzie had the time to complete the murder and clean up after killing Andrew, especially since she was working against a time schedule during which she knew Bridget would be coming back down to the scene of the crime at 11:15 due to her general knowledge of Bridget's activities, if you take into consideration Bridget and Lizzie were not in conspiracy.

I have no more to offer at the present time on this time point, but it's really worth more work. 



83. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Mar-10th-03 at 3:55 AM
In response to Message #82.

Pardon me please, if I interject here, as the timing of Bridget that morning is important, plus I had posted on another thread to Augusta --that Bridget was prepared to return to her work fixing the noon meal at "half-past eleven".
I did go to your source citation of Prelim. pg 25 and thanks for that.
The time Bridget specifies pg.25 & 26 is 11:30 a.m. according to that citation.


84. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by njwolfe on Mar-10th-03 at 7:26 PM
In response to Message #83.

I just had a thought thinking about 4 women unemployed, living
in one small house together...well Bridget was the employee but
still 4 grown women hanging around the house all day. Lizzie was
ironing on August 4th when it was 100 degrees, the wood stove was
going, ugh it must have been unbearable.  Emma was gone that day but usually she was hanging around too.. 4 women, probably Abby was
going through menopause, and the others had PMS. And no bathroom!
All 4 of these women probably wanted to kill the cheap SOB, maybe
they plotted together, no soap operas to watch!  


85. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Edisto on Mar-10th-03 at 8:08 PM
In response to Message #84.

Pardon me?  So, let's see...if it had been four "grown" men (if there is such a thing!) hanging around the house all day, no matter how hot it was, they would have gotten along just fine together?  Also, an obese sixty-four-year-old woman was going through menopause?  You need to do some reading, my friend.


86. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by njwolfe on Mar-10th-03 at 8:38 PM
In response to Message #85.

Nice sense of humor Edisto (re: 4 grown men), I was kidding
about menopause although it probably does go on and on.  Maybe
the women in this forum will appreciate the unbearable scenerio
of 4 women under the same roof controlled by a cheap control freak.


87. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by william on Mar-11th-03 at 10:22 AM
In response to Message #84.

Your estimate of the temperature is about twenty degrees too high, according to all of the records (and stop being so mean to all the girls - I like girls)!


88. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Susan on Mar-11th-03 at 11:51 AM
In response to Message #87.

Um, I believe NJWolfe is a girl or woman too.  Nancie. 


89. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by njwolfe on Mar-11th-03 at 8:55 PM
In response to Message #88.

Boy, you folks are tough, but that is good, made me go back to
my books to check facts.  I find I have 2 copies of Arnold R. Brown's
"The Legend, the Truth, the Final Chapter".  I don't know if it is
still in print but if any fellow Lizzie buffs would like a copy, I'll
send it to you, I sure don't need two of them. 
  I was thrilled to find stuck in the volume by E. H. Porter my son's
high school English report he did on the Borden case, he got an
"A".  The first sentence is "On August 4, 1892 In Fall River, MA
the temperature was nearing 100 degrees when the Borden family ate
breakfast of three day old mutton soup."  His bibliography is funny,
most of it "Nancie Wolfe, Town Clerk" or "The Herald News".  As if
his mother in small town Vermont was the expert.  Quickly flipping
through about 12 books, (of course most don't have indexes listing
weather) I sure couldn't find the temperature on that day but in my
mind I remembered reading somewhere it was a very hot day, near 100
degrees.
  Thanks Susan for clearing up that I am woman, and not picking on
women, just a fact that women are cyclic and moody (me included of
course) and that 4 of em under one roof is a factor in this case.
Weren't most women in that day over the age of 20 married with their
own families?  It must have been very strained in that household.
  My son's report was much different than my own opinion. (I dragged
him to the Lizzie conference with me in 1992) He concluded that
Lizzie put on her father's coat to catch the blood, then put it back
under his head for a pillow.  So simple, even the teacher wrote a
comment "need more facts here". 
  So I will remember when posting here, to get my facts straight,
I am still fascinated with this case. 


90. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Mar-11th-03 at 9:24 PM
In response to Message #89.

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/BibliographyLBQIssue.htm

Masterton, William L. "Weather We Do: Some Like It Hot!" Lizzie Borden Quarterly IV.1 (January 1997): 7-8.
After quoting various authors on the Lizzie Borden case that all claim that the day of the murders was a very hot one, Masterton uses three sources (the Fall River Daily Herald, the Fall River Evening News, and the United States Signal Service) to prove that the temperature was not over 78 degrees when Andrew was murdered.
 
Schley-Ulrich, William. "Weather We Don't: Just How Hot Was It?" Lizzie Borden Quarterly IV.1 (January 1997): 6, 8.
Article quoting weather reports from the Fall River Herald of 4 August, 1892, as well as trial testimony regarding the temperature that day. He closes his essay with the following questions: "Did the players in the legend of Lizzie testify truthfully about the weather, or were they so influenced by the prosecution that they deviated from the truth?"

--Well, William has known what he knows about the weather Aug. 4th, for over 6 years, so I guess we should also be aware of the research by now.
Do you get the LBQ?
It is a very good source of new research and scholarly articles bringing us up-to-date.
 


91. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by haulover on Mar-11th-03 at 11:40 PM
In response to Message #82.

carol:

i'm working on the lizzie vs. bridget problem currently, and it isn't easy, but as you indicate, it needs some insight.  the difference is obvious enough, but the meaning just racks up questions.

according to lizzie, when she comes down to the kitchen, bridget is getting ready to go out and wash the windows.  bridget's account of this time is that she's going out to vomit and doesn't get to the windows until about 30 min. later.

lizzie was never aware of bridget in the house (assuming she had gone upstairs) except that she admits she heard bridget let her father in.  all the conversation bridget remembers with lizzie, lizzie doesn't remember it -- as though instead of that, lizzie went to the barn. 


92. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Mar-12th-03 at 3:16 AM
In response to Message #91.

Yes, that's my 30 missing minutes.
9 to 9:30.  And that was the time of the murder of Abby.
Bridget gets her orders to wash windows at 9 and barfs and farts around cleaning her kitchen and then gets ready to do the windows at 9:30 at which point Lizzie appears from planet X and asks her through the screen door "Lawdy Maggie, you gonna wash them windows today, right NOW?" (NOT!)  Anyway, where was Bridget really from 9-9:30 and where was Lizzie really from 9 to 9:30?
I got another one for ya!
Coming up!


93. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by haulover on Mar-12th-03 at 11:28 AM
In response to Message #92.

ha!  yeah, i know.  but it's even worse than that if you add to it that morse claims to have overheard maggie's window-washing orders at 7:00 while at the breakfast table.

their tales conflict at time of each murder.

for andrew's murder -- you've got lizzie (oh, maggie was upstairs, i'm sure) going out to the barn so the killer could get busy.  then maggie has all these little details to offer about who was where and what lizzie said to her, etc. -- but how could bridget invent these things?  how?  and the upshot of it is this:  there is no way to reconcile these two accounts.


94. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by diana on Mar-12th-03 at 2:20 PM
In response to Message #90.

Please note that I'm not arguing with any research here; just mentioning something I read recently. Apparently it wasn't just those influenced by the prosecution who claimed it was a very hot day.  Defense lawyer Arthur Phillips stated: "The temperature on that day was superlatively hot". (p.5 The Borden Murder Mystery: In Defence of Lizzie Borden)[emphasis mine]

Of course, he wrote this some 45 years later -- but obviously, he too, remained under the impression that the weather was uncommonly hot.  Do we know why this myth was perpetrated in the first place?


95. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Mar-12th-03 at 6:56 PM
In response to Message #90.

Can we agree that a humid 78F (in the shade?) was hot? Remember all the wool clothes they wore?


96. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Carol on Mar-12th-03 at 8:01 PM
In response to Message #83.

"She said she had planned to go downstairs even before 11:15 that day to start it, which was her usual time." That was my quote which you took issue with by quoting testimony as follows: "Bridget was prepared to return to her work fixing the noon meal at "half-past eleven".

I was wrong about the 11:l5, yes, I should have said 11:30 but had 11:15 on my mind. But if you look on page 26 Bridget says:

Q: You were coming down stairs at half past eleven to get the dinner?
A: Yes, Sir, probably sooner.

So I was right in that Bridget was planning on coming down earlier than her usual time by her own testimony, just before 11:30 and not 11:15.



97. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Mar-13th-03 at 2:31 AM
In response to Message #94.

Phillips says he's one of the last alive to tell about the case of all those involved.  (It's almost as if he waited for Pillsbury to die).  Then he doesn't look up anything, he just writes from memory.  He can get away with that then.  He was either lazy or lying.  Ter made excuses for the man possibly not being in the position to read the court documents before he wrote, and maybe so, but he still must have had notes or something, which it doesn't seem that he even checked those.

If you are relying on his article in History you are also getting a pinch of his brother-in-law, probably.

Please anyone, treat Phillips like a newspaper.

I think the point of it's having been hot, which the prosecution latched onto & we still hear to this day, was because they wanted to show disdain and incredulaty for Lizzie's story that she was in the barn loft.    Both sides making sure people thought it was hot that day probably was a smokescreen ploy also to do with disparaging the breakfast, explaining the *summer illness* as to the sick Bordens, and how there could be an explosion of rage.
Can you think of other reason's to make it hot that day?


98. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Carol on Mar-13th-03 at 3:56 PM
In response to Message #4.

"...we must exhaust every possibility, but i have never been able to seriously entertain "the maid did it" theory.  my intuition, for whatever it's worth, rejects the notion."

I haven't entertained that idea seriously either.  Bridget is very slippery in her testimony as well, yet you seem to focus on Lizzie's confusion or seeming lack of being honest. What is your opinion of Bridget's cross-examination testimony regarding speaking to the District Attorney about a note he "showed" her but she didn't "read" because he "read" part of it to her which she never did say what it was all about but said it wasn't about her testimony just about something said?  If anyone is being coy or circular, she is here.  Why? What do you think those half-dozen words were that she conveniently can't remember?  Page 48-49 Preliminary Hearing.  


99. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Mar-13th-03 at 4:52 PM
In response to Message #98.

The maid didn't do it for these reasons:
1) no known complaints on her part
2) she did not stand to gain by the murder
3) she was NOT accused of anything by Lizzie or ?

Yes, she was present. So was Lizzie. Common sense says one of the two must have done it. UNLESS there was another whose presence was kept secret. I think Nemesis provides the Parallax View to solve the
mystery.
...
Her life was blameless afterwards. See Pearson for the axe murder on that ship. The first mate was convicted on the unsupported word of another seaman. Years later, this seaman took an axe and tried to kill somebody; the convicted first mate was then pardoned. Another argument against the death penalty, and a refutation of Pearson.


(Message last edited Mar-13th-03  4:54 PM.)


100. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by haulover on Mar-13th-03 at 9:10 PM
In response to Message #98.

bridget never had first-hand knowledge of a note -- only what she had heard about it.  and what she had heard was confusing.

bridget and lizzie are at odds in their accounts.  and both would seem to have some explaining to do, which neither can do satisfactorily at critical times. 

but i can't overlook the fact that whereas bridget has detailed memories she is matter-of-fact about, lizzie is always looking for an escape hatch -- a way around something. i've been through this so many times, i won't do it again, but lizzie really struggles to account for herself, whereas bridget accounts for herself with relative ease.

but i admit i don't understand why bridget spends an inordinate amount of time in the kitchen before going out to wash the windows.

if something is going on between bridget and lizzie, why are their accounts so at odds?


101. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by haulover on Mar-13th-03 at 9:15 PM
In response to Message #99.

i agree.  the maid did not have the energy for it.  when i compare the testimony of the maid to that of lizzie -- i can't see putting the burden of it on the maid, i have to put it on lizzie.


102. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by haulover on Mar-13th-03 at 9:32 PM
In response to Message #98.

whoever is the murderer, lizzie is dishonest. she's here, she's there, she doesn't hear a thing.  she has father leaving at a time later than when he was certainly seen at the bank.  she struggles to explain why she might not have seen abby in the house before she produces the note story.  from the kitchen she hears bridget letting in father -- yet she never saw bridget.  the search for sinkers in the barn is ridiculous when you add to it that she took pears up there to eat. her inquest is an evasion.  if her own hands did not literally swing the axe, then she knows who did.  she is always near both murders, doing them or supervising them.


103. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Mar-14th-03 at 12:20 AM
In response to Message #100.

This is the *note* to which Carol refers,
Preliminary Hearing, Bridget:

Q.  Did anybody have any talk with you; did the District Attorney talk to you last night?
A.  Yes Sir, he said a few words to me down in the Marshal's office.
Q.  Was the Marshal there?
A.  He was around there, I do not know whether he was listening to me.
Q.  Who else was there?
A.  I cannot tell who they were.
Q.  Did they have any testimony, or anything, written out, or any paper which they showed you last night?
A.  Mr. Knowlton showed me a little paper.
Q.  What kind of a little paper?
A.  I do not know what it was.
Q.  Did you look at it?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Was it in writing?
A.  In printing I think.
Q.  Was it something that you had said somewhere?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  It was. And had you made some mistake?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Was it something that you were going to say?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Something that you had said at the other hearing?
A.  No Sir. What I said was all right.
Q.  I understand that. What did he show you the paper for; do you recollect?
A.  I do not know.
Q.  You read it, did you not?
A.  No Sir, I did not.
Q.  You saw it was in printing?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  He handed it to you?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  You said he showed it to you?
A.  I said I saw it.
Q.  Was he talking about that paper when he showed it to you?
A.  No Sir. He read a little of it.
Q.  Was that something that you had said?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  When had you said it?
A.  I do not know when I said it.
Q.  Did you say it yesterday or at that other time when you were in this room?
A.  I do not know.
Q.  Had you said it at all at any time?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Had you forgotten all about it?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  You remembered all about it?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  How much do you think he read to you, quite a little?
A.  About half a dozen words I should judge.
Q.  What were those half a dozen words?
A.  I dont know.

There is more....


104. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Susan on Mar-14th-03 at 2:44 AM
In response to Message #103.

From Bridget's testimony it sounds as though there was more on that little piece of paper. 

A.  No Sir. He read a little of it.

Q.  How much do you think he read to you, quite a little?
A.  About half a dozen words I should judge.

So, out of whatever was written, only about 6 words were read back to Bridget of what she had said.  How strange is this? 


105. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by haulover on Mar-14th-03 at 9:45 AM
In response to Message #103.

i see.  this is material i don't have.  it isn't free but has to be ordered.  is this correct?  i guess i need to get it then, huh?


106. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Edisto on Mar-14th-03 at 10:30 AM
In response to Message #105.

--And cheap at the price!  When I first began studying the Borden case around five years ago, these primary sources were terribly hard to come by and very expensive.  I don't remember what I paid for my copy of the Prelim, but I think I got it from an eBay seller who is notorious for selling substandard products.  It's a bulky document that takes up two loose-leaf binders, so CD-ROM is definitely the way to go.


107. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by rays on Mar-14th-03 at 1:06 PM
In response to Message #102.

IMO Lizzie is sending a message to Nemesis: "I didn't see or hear anything, so you don't have to come after me". Doesn't this explain her statements?


108. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by haulover on Mar-14th-03 at 1:42 PM
In response to Message #106.

if anyone knows of a good source for prelim material, let me know.


109. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Carol on Mar-14th-03 at 3:08 PM
In response to Message #105.

"i see.  this is material i don't have.  it isn't free but has to be ordered.  is this correct?  i guess i need to get it then, huh?"

First, thanks for posting the actual testimony which I referred to Kat. I didn't have time to type it all out at the time I asked my question. One reason for my interjecting this piece of testimony was that Bridget is a prosecution witness, she is interested in cooperating with the District Attorney. I, personally think she did see what was printed on that note because there is no reason for the DA to just read her a half dozen words out of context in having a discussion with her. She knows much more about what that note had to do with than she says and she is better at not revealing it than Lizzie ever was in her confused statements at the inquest.

I bought my copy of the Preliminary Hearing from the Fall River Historical Society a few years ago, it comes in several booklets and my copy was hard to read as they photocopied the microfilm I think.




110. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Mar-14th-03 at 6:39 PM
In response to Message #108.

Our copy of the Prelim. was loaned to Harry who TYPED that thing up and Stef helped with typing as well.  It was then put on C-D and is sold at:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/LBordenGiftPrelim.htm
--I believe as a member of this Society you may enjoy a bit of a discount.
--Everyone who has it has read it 3 and 4 times.  It is the first time Bridget *speaks*, as her Inquest testimony is unavailable.
--Carol, anytime you need some Prelim posted here send me *Letterbox* and I will do that.
--BTW:  In Privy last night I turned "PROCEEDINGS" Hip-Bath info black for you.


(Message last edited Mar-14th-03  8:44 PM.)


111. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by njwolfe on Mar-14th-03 at 7:39 PM
In response to Message #110.

Thanks for the link to get Prelim,
Nancie


112. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by haulover on Mar-14th-03 at 11:21 PM
In response to Message #110.

i don't see in that link how to order it.  would someone instruct me in exactly how to obtain a copy?  be it hard copy or CD, would someone mind guiding me to it?  email me ehosey@mindspring.com and put your forum name in subject line.


113. "Re: If I Were Bridget..."
Posted by Kat on Mar-15th-03 at 12:10 AM
In response to Message #112.

Once you go to that link, please click on "SHIPPING /Privacy."

I didn't quite know where to go from there and that's when I start clicking on everything...

(Message last edited Mar-15th-03  12:15 AM.)



 

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