Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden
Topic Name: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?

1. "Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by Kat on Jan-23rd-03 at 1:00 AM

I am reading  Stef's copy of the new issue of the LBQ.
The premiere article is about Nance O'Neil, by Judith Curry.

She provides us with information as to details of Nance's life on and off the stage.  Nance married Alfred Hickman, a British actor who hung out with Ellen Terry and Henry Irving.
Recently these two names have been bandied about as cronies of Walter Sickert, who Patricia Cornwell believes was Jack the Ripper.

We may have one degree of separation between Lizzie Borden AND Jack the Ripper, in the form of Nance's husband, Alfred Hickman!!


2. "Re: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by kimberly on Jan-23rd-03 at 1:28 AM
In response to Message #1.

Wasn't she in Europe about the time of the Whitechapel murders?
Odd that no other murders really got the attention these two
have, maybe it is the Victorian era that does it for people?


3. "Re: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by Kat on Jan-23rd-03 at 1:23 PM
In response to Message #2.

Nance was born in 1874, according to the article, and her first play, in S.F. was in 1893.  Europe was later.

I'm surprised all the authors writing about Nance or Lizzie or Jack, didn't notice this possible connection?
This is really cool, to me!


4. "Re: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by Susan on Jan-23rd-03 at 8:13 PM
In response to Message #3.

Very cool, this is like that Kevin Bacon game where they can connect him with anyone in movies and such.  Ever heard of it? 


5. "Re: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by haulover on Jan-23rd-03 at 10:02 PM
In response to Message #3.

lizzie sure gets around, doesn't she?  those two cases are similarly extraordinary though, aren't they.  but i agree with what you said earlier.  i can't hope to find jack.  but at least i know lizzie was in the house that day.  the jack theorists seem to be all over the place where it looks like it can never be anything but fiction.  the lizzie case has wide-open questions but at the same time indisputable facts.  i still think it's possible to solve the lizzie borden case, if we could just find the door.  my strongest feeling is that the door is in her testimony.  you know who i would love to put on this case?  edgar allan poe.  but i suppose that's another sort of case in itself.


6. "Re: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by kimberly on Jan-24th-03 at 12:59 AM
In response to Message #5.

Bridget was in the house that day too.


7. "Re: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by Kashesan on Jan-24th-03 at 7:01 AM
In response to Message #1.

Dumb Question Coming-helmets on? How can I get LBQ? On line? (Cringing...)


8. "Re: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by harry on Jan-24th-03 at 7:42 AM
In response to Message #7.

Subscription rates are $18 for one year, $30 for 2 years.  Non U.S.A.: 1 year $24.00, 2 years $40.00.  Send payment to:

Lizzie Borden Quarterly
Dr. Gabriela Schalow Adler - Publisher
Bristol Community College
777 Elsbree Street
Fall River, MA  02720-7391


Well worth the price for a Bordenite!  Neilson Caplain and our own Stefani (my two favorites) have regular columns and Leonard Rebello, Maynard F. Bertolet, Michael Martins, Dennis Binette and our own William Schley-Ulrich appear periodically. In addition Lisa Zawadzky writes a column on Borden books and other media keeping us up to date on what's out there.

Other forum members, Augusta and Carol have appeared also.  If I forgot anybody forgive me.

Go for it!  


(Message last edited Jan-24th-03  8:09 AM.)


9. "Re: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by kashesan on Jan-24th-03 at 9:10 AM
In response to Message #8.

Thanks Harry-will do


10. "Re: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by Carol on Jan-25th-03 at 3:02 PM
In response to Message #7.

I have tried to get back issues (out of print) from the interlibrary loan but no luck, they aren't loaning them out. The back issues are pretty spendy so I am missing the ones before 1998 when I started my subscription. I suppose they aren't library loaned so people will buy up the old copies.  Perhaps they will be loaned when all are gone????


11. "Re: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by Carol on Jan-25th-03 at 3:05 PM
In response to Message #8.

That was nice of you to recognize everyone, Harry. But YOU too are in the LBQ I think, in recognition of the computer work you have done so we all can read the documentation.  Wish I had your skills in that department!  Cheers to you.


12. "Re: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by Kat on Jan-25th-03 at 9:18 PM
In response to Message #11.

 


Yea! Harry!

(Message last edited Jan-25th-03  9:18 PM.)


13. "Re: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by harry on Jan-25th-03 at 10:45 PM
In response to Message #1.

Heavens, you're all too kind.  Thank ye, as Andrew would have probably said. I was just trying to boost the LBQ which is a treasure to us Bordenites.

This issue has a great article by Martins and Binette on Lizzie. I enjoyed reading that.


14. "Re: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by diana on Jan-27th-03 at 2:42 PM
In response to Message #13.

I really enjoyed the Martins/Binette article, too.  Isn't it interesting to note, though, that someone so close to the scene -- writing only a few (maybe ten?) years later errs on at least two important facts relating to the case?

Wells indicates that the murders were discovered earlier than they were --"overheard Mr. Philip H. Borden, then City Engineer, say something about 'Andrew Borden and his wife' JUST BEFORE ELEVEN O'CLOCK"(LBQ,17). And later, he says that a "search was not made until, all outside clues leading to no result, attention was directed to the inmates of the house at the time of the murder and BY THIS TIME THE DRESS HAD BEEN BURNED." (LBQ,18)[emphases mine]


15. "Re: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by Kat on Jan-27th-03 at 9:57 PM
In response to Message #14.

Can you figure out why Buck came to Wells' office?
If he first came to see Philip H. Borden, I can't seem to find a mention of him in Knowlton Glossary A, Hoffman, Rebello or Witness Statements....


16. "Re: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by diana on Jan-27th-03 at 10:34 PM
In response to Message #15.

Good point, Kat.  Wells says that "Miss Borden was well known to [him] and his wife".  It sounds as though Andrew and C.H. Wells' father were friendly, too -- as "it was the usual thing for Mr. Borden and Mr. Wells [the father] to walk out of church together". Perhaps Buck was aware of this?


17. "Re: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by Kat on Jan-28th-03 at 4:47 PM
In response to Message #16.

I have gone looking for a mention of C.H. Wells in the usual places.  He is not in Knowlton Glossary A, Rebello, Witness Statements, but there IS a "Wells, J. Henry " listed in Dr. Hoffman's directory, Yesterday In Old Fall River:
(But in the text he is referred to as Henry J. Wells---when I looked this up first, J.H.Wells seemed very similar to C.H.Wells and so I persued it...only to come across a misprint?...The LBQ article claims that John Henry Wells was known as J.Henry Wells...so that is the FATHER of this Charles or "C.H.")

"Henry J. Wells was a successful Fall River businessman.  He was a financier, property owner and a partner in Aldrich and Wells, a local harware store.

Wells was also a business acquaintance of Andrew Jackson Borden.  He attended the funeral of Andrew and Abby Borden on Saturday, Aug. 6, 1892 and helped carry Abby's casket at Oak Grove Cemetery to the Borden family plot.  The other pallbearers for Abby Borden were Frank L. Almy, Simeon B. Chace, Henry S. Buffinton, James C. Eddy and John H. Boone."

In Rebello, pg. 104, "Pallbearers" named include Henry J. Wells, treasurer of Fall River Spool & Bobbin Co.

(Message last edited Jan-28th-03  4:49 PM.)


18. "Re: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by diana on Jan-28th-03 at 5:48 PM
In response to Message #17.

Don't you feel like we are often chasing shadows in this case?

The LBQ article says that J. Henry Wells had a 'general store' when the family lived in Kingston.  I wonder if that's where Hoffman's Aldrich and Wells 'hardware store' fits in? 

But Hoffman says THAT store was a Fall River business and the LBQ says that J. Henry had his store when the family lived in WEST KINGSTON -- and that he moved to Fall River in 1877 to become treasurer of the Fall River Spool and Bobbin Factory.

Rebello usually provides excellent sourcing -- but I can't find the source for his HENRY J. WELLS on page 104.

The New Bedford Evening Standard Saturday August 6, 1892 page 6 - (excerpted on lizzieandrewborden.com) lists J. HENRY WELLS as one of Abby's pallbearers.  And in 'Fall River Tragedy' Porter also refers to J. HENRY WELLS as pallbearer for Abby.


19. "Re: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by Kat on Jan-28th-03 at 6:00 PM
In response to Message #18.

Yea!  But dontcha just LOVE it!!??


20. "Re: Lizzie Borden Meets Jack the Ripper?"
Posted by diana on Jan-28th-03 at 6:07 PM
In response to Message #19.

I do, actually.  That's what's scares me.



 

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