1. "a piece of lead to fix a screen"
Posted by haulover on Feb-4th-03 at 10:32 PM

not much attention  is paid to this because she switches to sinkers.  but what is meant by getting a piece of lead to fix a screen?

Wasn't it a piece of "tin or iron" to fix her screen?  I don't know, but, if it was a window screen, I have seen people make patchs for holes in them with a small piece of screening that is stitched over the hole.  Perhaps you could baste a small flat piece of tin or iron over the hole?

And Lizzie in her usual way of not explaining things could have meant one of those folding screens that Victorians had, though I can't imagine how you would use a small piece of metal to fix one?  The only moving parts on those were hinges and I would think you could purchase a new one for a few cents.

To me it always sounded like she was trying to come up with a certifiable reason for being in the barn, a man's place.  She fished around in her mind and remembered those boxes filled with stuff.  What kind of stuff was in them?  Oh, lead and bits and pieces of things and she tried to make an alibi out of what was in there to work with.  At least the sinker story was a little more plausible. 

lead, tin, iron.........i don't know.  whatever.  to "fix" a "screen."  i've seen screens patched with pieces of screens.  but a solid piece of something stitched to a screen?  perhaps a term of the time not used today.  as bad as it was, perhaps the sinker story was more plausible.

That *Iron or Lead* question reminds me:
Did you guy's know there was another Lizzie Book that was to be published?  It was noted in the LBQ, too.
Here is the cite in Rebello, pg. 141.
It has not yet surfaced.
What a BUMMER!

"Bridget Did It"

"Dining Over Lizzie / Case Still Strikes Public's Fancy / Another Year, Another Theory," Fall River Herald News, July 21, 1996: E1.
"The Maid Did It," The Sunday Enterprise, Brockton, MA, September 22, 1996: 25.

"Author Leonard Healy, in his forthcoming book, Iron or Lead? , claimed Lizzie did not kill the Bordens and an ax was not the murder weapon. Healy said the Bordens were 'gassed to death by inhaling vapors of the deadly asphyxiate, hydrocyanic acid forcibly administered by ... Bridget Sullivan ... the ax-wielding was carried out by one of the girl's accomplices as a post mortem event.' Money was the motive. Healy's book is expected in 1997."

sure is late according to the dates.  another outrageous theory to refute.

I'd be interested in reading how Bridget managed to gas the Bordens with this deadly substance and not gas herself in the process!  There weren't any gas masks during that time period, were there?  Hmmm, 1997, it is just a little late. 

Boy, Bridget seems like a nut.

A gas mask of sorts was patented in 1849, but it's debatable how effective it was (which is what matters).  Apparently even Leonardo da Vinci designed one, so the idea is quite old.  Gas mask or no gas mask, I doubt if Bridget gassed the Bordens.

I would LOVE to read any Lizzie Book that had Bridget as the murderer...
Also, I wonder just HOW $ was the motive..
But I DO like that title.

Several different materials are available for
screening including aluminum or plastic which are nearly
permanent against weather. Galvanized iron screen was
used in the past but this material will rust over a
period of times and should be replaced before it
discolors the window frame and wall.

Well it seems that the aluminum screens of today are different from the type of screens that they used to use, which were made of iron. I figured I'd look up fixing window screens for the heck of it, when I came across this tid bit of info. Hope it helps!
  Red

have you read "lizzie borden:  the untold story" by edward radin?  he has bridget guilty.  he interviewed someone who was a boy at the time of the murders and observed bridget limping across the yard.  the author speculated that she was hiding the axe underneath her skirt.  if i'm not mistaken her primary motive was just being plain mad about having been forced to wash those windows.  (mean employers beware.)

Thanks RedFern!
Um, I wonder if there's a picture of one?

My screening on the back porch has a groove that the screening material is forced into and held in by a rubber string (?).
This length of rubber is pushed down into the groove and that holds the screening taut.

I suppose that is nothing like those galvanized iron ones?
I can't picture yet, how Lizzie would fix her screen.
---------
Yes, I had read Radin but I think the motive of Bridget is silly.
Mrs. Churchill says it was pretty common for those windows to be washed.  The way I view *WORK* as in manual labor, is..."if I wasn't doing that, I'd just be doing something else..."
(you can quote me--it's original)

Anyway, I really kind of like the Pearson-Radin Controversy. 
It is an interesting melding of theories!

http://www.arborwood.com/awforums/show-topic-1.php?start=1&fid=27&taid=8&topid=21&ut=1010542721

This a "PRIVY" selection.


(Message last edited Feb-5th-03  11:30 PM.)

Thanks for the interesting read, Kat. 

I've looked high and low on the internet, sorry, no pics of Victorian style window screens.  But, we did have them on my house growing up.  The windows were typical sash type windows, upper and lower, on the exterior framing at the top of the windows were 2 square shaped metal hook thingies.  In winter there were storm windows which fit into the framing and had 2 square shaped eye pieces that fit over the square shaped hooks.  There was also these bow-tie shaped pieces of metal with a screw in the center on the sides of the window framing that you would turn so one end of the tie went over the storm window frame which helped hold it in place.  In spring, they came out and the screens went in, the screens were basically a wooden frame made out of 2 X 2 lumber.  The screening mesh which was made out of metal, copper I think, was tacked or stapled to the frame and then a decorative wooden half-round trim strip went over the tacking to hide it.  We eventually had to replace the old screening material as it became brittle and broke, but, they were original to the house.  Don't know if that helped any or made it more confusing?  Oh, and when we put the screens up it was always called putting the screens in, I wonder if that is how they refer to the screens in the Bordens house being in or not? 

I lived in an early 1900's house as a child & it had the really old
screens --- they only covered the bottom half of the windows & they
were held on with two hooks --- like little coat hooks attached to
the window frame & then the screen itself had the "female" part. I
think the bottom of the screen had a couple of handles to raise it
and drop it into the frame. I'm sure Lizzie could have fixed
something on it with a scrap piece of metal. I remember that the
screen part was really heavy & thick --- not at all like the paper
thin screens now.





(Message last edited Feb-6th-03  4:47 PM.)

Remember those old sliding screens that fit into the bottom of a window? Maybe Lizzie needed something to hold them in place. It was a hot August. Screens were patched by putting a square over it so the ends poked through the undamaged part, then folded over. This still works today.

i think i get it now.  she would have used a piece of lead to attach to the corner of a screen that had come loose?

Witness Statements
Hiram Harrington
pg. 11

. "She went to the barn, where she stayed twenty minutes, or half an hour, looking for some lead from which to make sinkers for fishing lines, as she was going to Marion next week."

W.S.
Mrs. Churchill
pg. 11
"Where were you? I was in the barn looking for a piece of iron."

These 2 different *Quotes* of Lizzie are on the same page of the Witness Statements

Inquest
Lizzie
pg.69
Q. What doing?
A. Trying to find lead for a sinker.

In Lizzie's Inquest she sticks to the sinker story.
So far, above, these stories are not inconsistent amongst 3 people.

Prelim.
Churchill
pg. 283
Q.  What did she say?
A.  She said she went to the barn to get a piece of iron.
Q.  Did she say what she wanted the iron for?
A.  No Sir.

Inquest
Dr. Bowen
pg. 123
Q.  No, did she tell you where she was herself when her father was killed?
A.  Yes, she said the first time, or I wont say when, very early, that she was out of doors, out to the barn, had been out a while.
Q.  Did she say how long she had been there?
A.  No, I dont think she did, I dont remember of her saying how long. I dont doubt but I asked the question where she was. She said she was out in the barn.
Q.  Didnt she say what she was doing there?
A.  She told me sometime, I dont know whether just then or a short time afterwards, that she was looking after some irons, or tin. The remark she made the first time was she was looking after some irons, not flat irons, I mean irons, it might have been pieces of iron, "irons" was the words used......

Inquest
Alice
pg. 150
Q.  Do you remember of anything that Lizzie said about it, that remains in your memory?
A.  No, I have not asked her but one question all through it.
Q.  Will you tell me what that is?
A.  Yes Sir, I asked her what she went to the barn to do. She says my screen and window---she gave me to understand they did not come together right, or something,; "I was ironing handkerchiefs, and my flat iron was not hot, and I thought I would go and get that while I was waiting."
Q.  What did she say she went to get?
A.  A piece of tin or iron to fix the screen. I found the handkerchiefs part ironed, and part damp. I took the damp ones and shook them out.

So Alice is the one to ask and be told about the screen.
AND she sure changes the subject fast, doesn't she?

Anyway, could it be possible, because out of all these 3 other people, Alice is her friend, Lizzie explains a bit extra to her?  Lizzie is maybe looking for sinker material, AND looking for screen material?

I'm wondering because we ourselves here have mistaken iron, lead and tin, and interchanged them?
And I was also thinking that when I feel lazy, I actually think of 2 good reasons to get up and do something.  If it's just a fancy to get up for one small thing, I probably won't--I find 2 reasons.




(Message last edited Feb-9th-03  12:15 AM.)

Would Lizzie --- who didn't seem to do much of anything --- fix
her own screen when they had hired help? If it was in her room
would she not want anyone else to come in there to fix it? If
she ironed her own handkerchiefs would she do something that
required going out to the dusty old barn & then perhaps getting
a cut fixing the screen itself?

That is a good point Kat, about needing more than one thing to
do to get you going sometimes --- like waiting to go to the
store until you need more than one thing....

I've always remembered that from when I first started reading about Lizzie, her trip to the barn has always been attributed to the search for tin, iron, and/or lead.  The reason I remember it is because I've questioned this since day one, okay, Lizzie, which will it be, which metal are you after?

Wasn't it stated somewhere that the screens in her room were checked and nothing was found amiss with either one of them?  If Lizzie was going after 2 items in the barn, why didn't the first few witnesses mention it also?  They seem to be unanimous that Lizzie said she was looking for a metal, tin or iron, to fix a screen, no lead for a sinker thrown in there.  To me this sounds like a panic lie, she was out in the barn and needed a reason for being there and thought of what was in those boxes and tried to come up with something that was in there.  I was looking for a piece of tin or iron to fix my screen.  O, the screens are okay?  Um, let me see, uh, lead, yes, I was looking for lead for sinkers. 

But it can be the other way around, and that's what made me think of it.
Haulover started by sayimg to fix a screen and changed to sinkers.
It seems as if, when we read it all again (and was confirmed by Lizzie at her Inquest) Lizzie's visit was for sinkers for her fishing lines. This could have been her first intent and her first meaning.
The 2 people who saw her in the first minutes after the alarm, Churchill & Bowen say she wanted iron but NOT what she wanted it for.

It wasn't until Alice, 4th friend on the scene that we hear about the screen. (4th counting, in order, Bridget, Mrs. Churchill, Dr. Bowen and then Alice...)

And if WE are confused as to which bit of metal and what for, what about the neighbor and the friend and the doctor who were THERE in that chaos?

PS:  I don't know of anybody checking Lizzie's screens.
The main window questions I can recall are about the guest room, sitting room and parlor and kitchen..and later the cellar.

(Message last edited Feb-9th-03  4:00 PM.)

one of the most frustrating things is seeing in retrospect how much more we could know if people had taken the trouble to question lizzie more on certain points and really pursued the answer.

someone could have asked her:  what window exactly?  show me.

knowlton failed a few times in this way.  like where she says she picked up a piece of a chip.  i wish knowlton had said:
what chip?  metal, wood, what?
what floor?
why did you pick it up?
where did you put it afterwards?

another good one would have been to ask her what she read in that magazine.  what was the article about?  just generally speaking, what was the topic?  what do you remember of it?

because anyone would have remembered something.  it would have done much to make her story either more or less believable.

once i was very familiar with her testimony, i began to see these "unopened doors."  knowlton is certainly no fool, but neither is lizzie when it comes to giving him as little info as possible.

while i'm on the subject, i was confused for a long time by that whole part about the "lines at the farm."  is the answer here that he let her confuse him into thinking that where she was going fishing was the same place the lines and whatnot where?  when in fact the farm she was referring to was not where she was making her trip?  (i think i've brought this up before, i don't mean to be redundant, but i'm still unsure.)

Well, I did a search and couldn't find anything about anyone checking the windows in Lizzie's room or her screens.  Author's invention perhaps?  Newspaper article?  I know I read it somewhere, how maddening.  But, bottom line is no one checked her screens as far as I can tell, why did Lizzie then change her story?  Very odd. 

I keep thinking it may be Lincoln but I have not checked.

My point is that we don't know that she *changed* her story.
She may have Added to her story, to Alice and then simplified it down to sinkers for the Inquest, which was possibly her original intent and motivation.
(Of course if she did do what she says she did).

haulover, if Lizzie was asked what was in the magazine she was reading, that may not have helped her case because she says she was reading an old one. 
(She may have read it a few times before...)

They should have looked for everybody's pear carcasses as others on here have pointed out!  Those pears would have told a story...even Lizzie's pockets should have been checked to find if she had kept pear remains in them (to throw away later) from all the pears she supposedly ate that day.

I've always thought that exchange about the "lines at the farm" was hilarious.  It's like a comedy routine.  IMHO, Lizzie was talking about the fact that she was going to Marion (a resort area where fishing could be enjoyed) to visit with her friends, and that she planned to do some fishing while she was there.  She was going to be visiting Dr. Handy's cottage, so that wouldn't be a place where she herself had any personal fishing equipment stashed.  However, she did remember that she had some old fishing equipment at one of the Borden farms at Swansea.  She wouldn't have been going to the farm before she went to Marion, so there was no way of getting any of that equipment.  I suspect she had already been briefed by Jennings and told to give only terse answers, not volunteering any information.  That appears to be what she was trying to do. When she was asked if she had any fishing lines, she (honestly) said that she did, which misled Knowlton into thinking she would have access to them before going to Marion.  He then got upset when he realized she had no way of using those lines in any case. Knowlton had asked the wrong question.  Instead of asking whether she owned any fishing lines, he should have asked her if she had already purchased fishing lines for use at Marion or if there were already lines at Marion for her use. 

my point about the magazine was just to try to determine if she actually read anything.  if her answer to the question, "what was it about, generally speaking?" is another "i don't know" or "i don't remember" -- then she's caught in a lie.

yes, i had forgot about the pears. "miss borden, i should think i would find 3 pear carcasses in the barn."

You hit the nail on the head, Edisto.  It is very much a comedy routine along the lines of the old Abbott and Costello Whos On First routine.

Its true, there are so many questions that could have and should have been asked, but, were let to drop. 

I wonder how many times Knowlton came
close to smacking her?

A large crowd gathered in the yard at 92 Second Street that day. I'm sure many of them were not above sampling the Borden fruit. It would have been impossible to find Lizzie's cores among so many others.  This is assuming she ate three pears in the barn and threw the cores into the yard. It is my belief she was never in the barn. This was her alibi to distance herself from the crime scene.

Yes, you're right, William.
I guess others may also have been tempted by that forbidden fruit, besides Lizzie, McGowan, and Morse.
Then we are left with that smooch at the pocket of the Bengaline skirt (or whatever that SKIRT was made of), to be tested for pear detritus!

I've never quite understood that, whether the crowd was in the Borden yard or out front of the property in the street.  If they were in the yard it makes Morse's statement even more ludicrous that he walked into the yard and didn't see anyone about and just moseyed back to one of the pear trees for a snack. 

What's even more odd is that Morse says or implies that whenever he comes to the Borden house he passes the screen door and goes to the pear tree as a matter of habit.
Then it gets more odd because in that transcription in the Privy of Fleet's original handwritten notes of that day which seem to form the basis of the Witness Statements, Morse says he saw  BLANK around there when he arrived.
Then in OUR version of those WitnessStatements someone has filled in the BLANK to say Morse says he saw "a number of person's around the house", but by the Inquest he is saying he didn't see anything to attract his attention!
Now how is all THAT explained?!

It sounds like Morse has Lizzieitis, the story changes as time goes on to fit his purpose.

Wherever the crowd was, how could one not notice?  I would think out of curiousity that Morse would have walked up to this group milling about and ask whats up.  I was just looking at his trial testimony and there was no one around that caught his attention until he got back from the pear tree and saw Sawyer at the back door with Bridget.  Was he like the absent minded professor?  So intent on what he was doing that he honestly didn't notice what was going on around him?  Strange. 

The house was on a busy street parallel to Main St. Perhaps such groups of people were so common as to not attract notice?
Do not make too many assumptions!

Since Susan's post's last two sentences are questions, it doesn't seem to me she is *assuming*.
Of course that is good advice but she seems to know this.

It would be interesting to hear some of Your opinions, Ray, that had no *Brown* attached....

While I read many books from the county library system, I did buy the AR Brown book. He alone had the experience and maturity to answer many questions; the "one best book". Not too many people understand the facts behind the news when a zoning ordinance is passed or changed. Brown certainly knew how governament and business operated, but it was Spiering's book that pointed (?) out that the murders resulted in a leaderless general strike. No matter who dies, the wheels of production must be kept moving!

i've always wondered if morse is just a dense sort of fellow who is not very observant.  (but then he remembers his itinerary so well.)  if he's honest, he must think pears are such a treat.  as was indicated somewhere earlier, there should have been a pear investigation.  someone said (bridget?) that mr borden brought a load of pears into the house.  of course lizzie uses the pear issue to explain herself.  but seriously, it is interesting how pears are such an object of interest when more serious questions are looming.  if i see a sack of pears bearing the name, "lizzie borden pears," i'll buy one.  i'm surprised an axe manufacturer hasn't seen fit to name itself the "lizzie borden axe and hatchet company." 

He did change that story too, recall?

At first he said he took a car to Weybosset, then later he implies he walked.
I would think a horse-dealer would be very observant.  He also was most probably a raconteur, tall-talker, story-spinner.
He was born on P.T. Barnum's birthday.
He was supposedly a likeable chap, but a bit of a rolling-stone.
Maybe in his older years he was a bit hard of hearing and a bit hard-of -seeing?  Of course that wouldn't affect his hearing and SEnsing that there was turmoil there on the premises.

What he DID say, which seemed real, was that he found himself to be extremely nervous once he entered the house and got an inkling of what had happened.

Thanks, Kat.  No, Rays, I'm not assuming, simply using common sense and what would I have done if I was staying at a relative's house that suddenly had a big crowd of people around it when I got home.  I'd want to know what was going on, even if it had nothing to do with my relative's home, why the crowd?  I think its just human nature.

I would imagine that the crowd would be agitated to some degree and possibly trying to scan or see into the house.  I'd be curious. 

AR Brown correctly analyzes Uncle John's alibi and his ride on the streetcar. Brown notes that his journey took him close to H Harrington's shop and stable!!! As if he wanted to talk to somebody there before he went to the Borden house!
Uncle John's stay in the back yard suggests he was thinking up the alibi or cover-up to this unforeseen crime. IMO

You are right!! I would ask what had happened, UNLESS I already knew what had happened (msg from Dr Bowen, visiting H Harrington's stable).

Wouldn't that make more sense if Morse had done that, than walking right by?  It would make him seem less suspicious if had done something like that, even if Morse already knew or suspected what he would find when he went in that house.  No wonder people suspected him of the crime.