1. "Lizzie  and  Bridget"
Posted by stargazer on Mar-7th-03 at 12:51 PM

I am new to the forum. After having read several books about Lizzie, and even doing a few horoscopes, I am still haunted by one question. I put myself in Lizzies place. I have just come from the barn, and I enter the house. It seems I would not go hunting down my father had I just left him, after a conversation, and he seemed to be "Fine", whether reading a paper, or napping. In order not to disturb him, I would go thru the dining room. Was the sitting room the only way to the upstairs?  At any rate. I find my father butchered. I think rather than calling the maid, (who could still have an axe, or be dead, herself) I would hightail it out of that house as fast as my legs carried me, and scream bloody murder in the middle of the street......I would not go to the stairwell, and call for Bridget. Lizzie called for Bridget because she knew the maid had not killed anyone. Granted, they could have been in on it. I shudder to think of the temperature in Bridgets attic room ! How the women wore such hot dresses is beyond me.  There are many other aspects to the case. Some speculate Emma was involved in the murders. She could have returned, as I also read the Brownells? were never interviewed about Where Emma was, altho I find that hard to believe. I wish modern forensics could shed some light on this mystery.

Hello, Stargazer!  Welcome to the forum! 

Thank-you Susan. Whenever I read the story, I feel I am Inside that house ! I am a writer as well, so I am a detail freak. I also enjoy Vintage clothing, and I want to know what it was really like back then in order to see a better picture.

Lizzie's behavior is totally rational once you realize that she saw the visitor leave. Did you read Rick Geary's book?

stargazer:

she had to pass through the sitting room to get to the front of the house.  her explanation was she was merely going upstairs to her room.

you say horoscopes?  have you done a chart for lizzie?  i didn't even know the info was available.  i've wanted to see one

I am looking for the birthdates, and I am sad to say my books are put away in storage. I know Andrew Borden is Sept 13  Emma March 1st. and I need the years, and Lizzies Birthdate. We Astrologers check to see how charts clash or not. I truly believe history repeats itself. I find people like Lizzy whether she is guilty or not. We have no idea what drives people to murder. Some say greed, or years of repression.The heat, rage disorder. PMS. This is a fascinating case, and always will be. I have a letter from Florence Brigham, bless her soul. I have always wanted to be Lizzie on Halloween.

Hello!
Here is some info on Emma's visit:

New Bedford Evening Standard-(courtesy of Harry Widdows)
Thursday, August 25, 1892  Page 8
(From Yesterdays Third Edition.)


"LIZZIE BORDEN'S LETTER.

Emma Friends in Fairhaven
Seen This Afternoon.

Mrs. Allen Brownell No Recollection
of the Circumstance Related.

The Missive May Have Been Shown
to Her Daughter.

Immediately upon the receipt of news from the Standard's special correspondent in Fall River in relation to the singular experience of Lizzie Borden as related by her at the inquest, given on the first page, a Standard reporter called at the residence of Mrs. Allen Brownell on Green street in Fairhaven, where Emma Borden was on a visit to Miss Helen Brownell, a daughter of Mrs. Brownell above named.  Unfortunately Miss Brownell was not in town, and when the newspaper man stated that he had called for the purpose of ascertaining as to the truth of the alleged statement of Miss Borden that she had shown such a letter to her friends in Fairhaven, Mrs. Brownell said she could not say whether she had or not.  She certainly had not shown such a letter to her, and she could not say whether Emma had shown such a letter to her daughter or not.  She remembered that Miss Borden had had several letters during her visit, but could not remember whether she received one the day previous to the murder or not.
When asked if her daughter would not have been likely to have mentioned the fact if such a letter had been shown, Mrs. Brownell replied, "Yes, I think she would."
In speaking of the tragedy, Mrs. Brownell did not hesitate to speak strongly in support of Lizzie's innocence.  She said that both of the girls always spoke in endearing terms of their father.  Emma, she stated, had intended to remain in Fairhaven all Summer."

Oooo, Kat, thanks.  So, Emmer wasn't planning on returning home that summer and Lizzie went and screwed it up for her.    I've never read that particular account before, thank you too, Harry.


Stargazer, thats good that you're detail oriented, there are so many little details to this case that you may pick-up on something that we all have missed over the years.  Kat herself just had 2 little epiphanies lately, 1) that there is 2 doors into the basement, not just one; and outer and inner door.  2) Lizzie explained the spot of blood on her petticoat as possibly being from fleas, she was having her period at the time and people just put 2 and 2 together.  Lizzie may have not meant it for a euphemism for menstruation, but instead meant that she really did have fleas.  So, you never know what you will find! 

Those musta been some mighty big fleas -- I've never
bled all over a skirt after having been bitten by one,
I thought they just drank rather than cutting?

Thank-you ! I have read several theories that speculate Emman could have returned to help with the murders, but she would have been seen, seems like. I need to hit the books right now, but thanks to all of you for helping. I all but Ruled John Vinnicum Out. His excuse seemed iron-clad.

Kimberly, that flea bite was the size of a pin-head, according to those doctors who examined it.
I too, have not experienced bleeding after a flea bite, but then yea, you're right they could be a bit different -style flea than now-a-days?

I would not rule out JVM due to a perfect alibi.
I would say a theory in that direction should not be discarded due just to that.

On the Lizzie Borden Virtual Museum and Library is some astrological info that might help you in your search.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/AstrologicalBordens.htm

you have to let us know what you find.

Well, I went to a free service called Astro.com, and I put in dates for the natal (birth) charts using unknown birth times. I found Lizzies chart to be quite decent. Her chart does show a major power struggle with a man, and an on and off love affair. She certainly wanted the family fortune, but, I found a lot of good in her. I will try to do a comparison for the date of the event, and her chart, to see what energies may have surrounded her. I also think doing bio-rhythms for all concerned would help immensely, because the emotional cycle would have to be at a crossroads. Andrew seemed to be an antsy type, perhaps trying to stay young, by competing in the business world. He probably drove people nuts. He was not clear headed when it came to meeting other peoples emotional needs. He was a lonely man, I think, and a lot of it may have been his miserley ways. (Shut down, as they say) Abbys chart showed a difference of opinion with a younger person. She may have had to put up with infidelity at some time in her life. Emmas chart  is the most striking. She is very much into soul searching, and her status was reduced. I am amazed she didn't explode. Her life was monotonous, frustrating, resentful, and filled with upsets. Her faith was all she really had. Uncle John is basically a survivor. He had to live in the shadow of someone else all his life. His love affairs would have been one-sided. He had big plans, and sometimes chashed with other men in arguments. I am surprised he wasn't killed, too, but luckily, he left the house. When I get time, I will check more aspects. These charts take time, and I think patterns emerge. It also helps to know what caused the tensions. Did Uncle Johns appearance trigger a panic response in Lizzie? That house muust have been like a steam kettle in more ways than one.

John V Morse can definitely ruled out for Andy's murder; he was miles away (?) at the time. The police certainly investigated him.
And he left while both Andy and Abby were alive. Same alibi.
His notation on his return shows deliberate detail, as if he expected to be questioned. AR Brown says Lizzie's note brought by Dr Bowen called him back, w/ the warning.

I'm ready to entertain the notion that JVM was an actor in the drama--but what would be his motive, and can it be shown that he benefitted in any way from the murders?

i wondered if you had found record of lizzie's birth time.  i used to do astrological charts.  what are some of the major aspects in lizzie's chart?

I used "Unknown" for her time of birth, and they put zero Aries on the horizon for the first house cusp. I call it "Natural Sequence"  Lizzie has Sun Opposition Mars, Jupiter opposition Mars,(the trophy hunter, a house on a hill?) and Venus opposite Mars, which shows on and off love for someone. She has Sun trine Neptune which has to do with having her faith rewarded for something. This case gets more interesting.

There's a theory that Morse doubled back and killed Abby and someone else killed Andrew.  I don't have an opinion on that myself.

Right, that's always bothered me, too.  What would Morse's motive be??  Still, he is as suspicious as heck.  The too-careful alibi.  The coming there the very day before.  Having the connection with the butcher.  The thing about him getting a telephone call at the house he was visiting.  The thing about Dr. Bowen going to that house.  And finally his trying to convince the reporter that the cellar door was open.  It's too much to ignore.  But what was the $##@@@$! motive?  Drives me nuts.

stargazer:

thanks.  that's more than i had.  sun trine neptune would give her some luck or charisma -- and a striking unusual quality more pleasing than not, and also (i realize this plays into the case, but i can't resist it) the ability to fool people.  sun and venus opposition mars:  difficulty with men in a woman's chart.

i haven't studied astrology in years, but i wish i knew the sign on her first house.  where is her moon?

Her Moon is 12 Leo.  Romantic, and fond of fun. Affair With Nance? Leo rules entertainment. I imagine Lizzie liked  to make up for the restrictions she endured.  Finding Bridgets birthday may prove too hard. I have to get on the ball, and do some chart comparisons. I imagine Lizzie and Emma shuddered at the prospect Abby would inherit all the money if Andrew died first. Perhaps Uncle Johns appearance triggered a panic response? Tesions often arise whan different ego energies shuffle for attention, and dominance. At 30 something Lizzie certainly would have wanted her own life by then. I would climb the walls living with my parents in that house.

Thanks for some insight, stargazer & haulover!

If our two starstruck members can come up with a motive for Morse, I don't think we'd need worry about his alibi.
Truly it is too fortuitous that he came there Wednesday and remembered to get those eggs from the farm which kept the farm overseer away from Second Street Thursday,

One suit, bedemmed!  If Lizzie can change so can Morse.  Maybe on an earlier visit he secreted a copy of his old grey suit on the premises.

If Lizzie can kill in the nude why not a Western man, a rancher.  I'll bet he SLept nude.

He didn't get to the Emery's in the kind of time that negates his disposal of Abby before he left.  There was time, if we juggled it a little bit.
Also, if his KIN lied for him he could have done it.
Also Mrs. Emery & his niece did argue the time he left and settled on a time, (like splitting the difference).

I don't put anything past Uncle John.

(Message last edited Mar-9th-03  12:44 AM.)

A while back somebody found this web site that purports that Lizzie's birth time was:

Borden, Emma
Date: 1851 03 01
Time: 11:55:00 PM LMT
Place: Fall River, MA (Long: 071W10'00, Lat: 41N43'00)
Lizzie Bordon's sister.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Borden, Lizzie
Date: 1860 07 19
Time: 10:00:00 AM LMT
Place: Fall River, MA (Long: 071W10'00, Lat: 41N43'00)
Acquitted, but immortalized as murderess in poem.

http://thenewage.com/resources/lore/astro_search.asp?orig=

At the same time, that same person asked the web site how they came by that number as nobody has that info. No reply.

Thank you. It will make things easier on the computer, but will it make things easier on the Astrologer? Chuckle.

If Uncle John committed the murder(s),why would Lizzie stew in jail,knowing she may be found guilty? It was all but impossible to know what was going on in and around that house for all concerned. I live in a house, and I know where everyone is, pretty much. Had a stranger come in, Lizzie, and Bridget would surely have been dead, too. I think too much, but what a great way to grow old.

Well, quite a few people think she stewed in jail for somebody, might as well be Morse?
There could always be an agreement, that if Lizzie was convicted the real killer would confess.

Yes, and it is agreed that a stranger might just as easily have killed everyone.
Strike one "stranger" off the list.  (As in drifter, or unknown person)

Covered in an earlier posting.
When Abby was done, Bridget was outside, and Lizzie down in the WC.
When Andy was done, Lizzie was outside, and Bridget upstairs in her room. Neither saw or heard anything, IMO. And it saved them!!!

leo moon.  interesting.  i would think cancer sun and leo moon would be very attracted to theater and performance arts.  i'm rusty and not prepared to get into any serious astrological study again, but.......... a cancer sun in favorable aspect to neptune--this would tend to be a very feeling compassionate person.   she appears to have been kind and generous toward her friends.  that fund she left for animals was a very neptunian thing to do.

i don't have a 19th century ephemeris or i might try to do lizzie's.  if you manage to do one and can post an image, i'd love to look at it.

Thank you, Haulover and Stargazer.  Very interesting reading about what you've come up with. 

As far as I know Lizzie, Emma, Andrew and Abby's Borden's birthtimes are not known. If they are the person is keeping it quiet.  Good luck Stargazer and Haulover in your analyzation of the charts without it...no ascendant, no house positions, moon etc.  Barbara Watters tried it in her book An Astrologer Looks at Murder but she fit her remarks to Lizzie being guilty from what I can see. Without a proper verified birthtime or rectified time I am too cautious about saying much and haven't.  I have set up their charts according to a noon time and have some opinions but don't consider these personal birthcharts. The best I could do is tinker about with their major aspects which are known but I have come up with more questions than conclusions. 

Someone here once said that Uncle John's birthtime was known but I never followed up on that nor do I know how it is known.  If you could do his with an actual time that would be most interesting. 

If Uncle John slept in the nude, he was surely a Dirty Old Man, because he testified that he left the door to his room open all night on Wednesday.  (I think he probably slept in his underwear, which he wore again the next day and the day after that, and the day after that...)

carol:

long time no see.  welcome back.

interesting to me that several here know something about astrology.  i have never looked into lizzie astrologically for the reason you mention -- being in the dark about the house positions.  but apparently someone here found a birth time for her given (i don't know the source).  sounds like stargazer might look into it.

but what did you find in the planetary aspects? 

Here is a site for the Swiss ephemerides for all years in pdf download format.

http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swepha_e.htm

Well, chortle chortle. It was....hot that night....Maybe he hoped someone would get to sleepwalking, and stumble in, who knows?

I have always wondered whether someone may have hidden in the parlor. We rarely hear peep about the parlor. Peep.

He, like many/most people of that day, slept in either his longjohns, or with his clothe on! Wearing pajamas is a late 19th century fashion, which old timers who used kerosene lanterns would not adopt. What if you suddenly had to leave the house? Some say this is the Old World peasant custom.

There is a scene in the 1970 movie "Patton" where the General sleeps in his clothes w/o shoes. Believe me, this is the thing to do if you could suddenly come under attack!!!

One may also do what's known as a Solar chart, in which the degree of the Sun is placed on the first house cusp, or the ascendant line. That does add a new dimension. Then, simply place the other planets into position.

Uncle John was visiting the Borden's without a suitcase.  He either had to sleep in his underwear if he had any on, borrow pj's from Andrew or wear his birthday suit to bed. I refuse to believe he would have borrowed a nightie from Lizzie.  If Andrew didn't wear pj's then there wouldn't be any to borrow. One thing we know for sure, he did have his birthday suit with him.

I have tried and tried to get a birthtime for Lizzie. The internet site that said they had the time didn't know where they got it when I asked. There aren't any government records.  No one has come up with a family bible list of birthtimes.

If someone knows Uncle John's birthtime, from a record, not from some internet site that gets things like this from the wind, then send it to me and I can set it up on my WinStar program and you can post it here or somewhere. But I won't do that if there is no verifiable time. 

"..but what did you find in the planetary aspects?"  Without the time I don't feel I should comment on the aspects.  Yes, Lizzie has a Leo moon but what house is it in and according to the placement it might or might not aspect other planets, it might or might not rule her ascendant, etc.  If she was born at 12:00 am Moon would be 4 Leo 58, if at noon it would be 12 Leo 17, and by the next midnight it would be at 19 Leo 38.  That's quite a swing, and the moon rules Lizzie's sun sign, Cancer.  It is important.  Anyone can set up the chart for noon and read the general paragraphs in books for the major aspects and signs, no need for me to do that here, but I am more looking for the real person and without the time there is no birthchart for me. 

Good luck with the solar chart, Stargazer, go for it if you are confident with that. Not everyone feels the way I do.

i know what you mean about the problem of not having the birth time.  you don't know what houses the planets are in and you don't know the planets ruling the houses.  but i finally looked at the aspects today -- i looked at what i can know, recognizing the limitations -- and i found it more interesting than i thought it would be.  the way i did this is i put aires on the first house and went all the way around, then put in the planets, and looked at those without reading into it anything regarding house positions.  (if i had done it as a solar chart, i still would not have paid any attention to house positions.  do you follow me?)  i used the planetary degrees in the ephemeris (i don't even know if they are for midnight or noon)

first thing i notice is the very close conjunction of sun and venus in cancer, with jupiter and moon just a few degrees away though in sign of leo.  all the benefic planets are huddled together right there.  that in itself is interesting.  and all these planets are harmonious to neptune in pisces.  presenting a picture of remarkable magnanimity.  a humanitarian, a natural-born teacher, a refined sensitive nature, a dreamer, a traveler, an expansive individual, someone who would have been well-liked.

but then notice how mars, in capricorn, opposes every bit of this.  the benefic grouping of planets are also squaring pluto.  the moon, ruling her sun sign, is part of the conflict.  pluto is in taurus, which is ruled by venus, which is also part of this conflict.  the moon (mother) is in close square to pluto, and mars (men) in capricorn (father) is also part of it.  you can see an act of violence in the way sun opposes mars and both squaring pluto.  (i don't mean this shows she is a murderer, but it's a good description of "murder.")  and it's interesting to me that this opposition consists of sun/venus/moon (feminine, mother) antagonized by mars in capricorn (men, father).  and both menaced by pluto (death).

mercury in close conjunction with saturn -- serious, purposeful thinking -- sort of sit out there by themselves unaspected.  this is puzzling, this is where you need a detailed chart.  but what is interesting is how the "good" planets are grouped together while under assault from mars and pluto.  i don't think i've ever seen that before.

at any rate, this is someone severely challenged, but it is not a weak person.  this is a strong, driven person who is also an extremely sensitive person.  but mars, authoritatively in capricorn, denies her a lot, doesn't it?

just wanted to throw this out while it was fresh on my mind. i wish someone else would offer an astrological opinion.  not that it will solve the case, but we're not solving it anyway, it seems.

Well, I will look further into the chart comparisons. Maybe our Lizzie had Scorpio Ascendant !  That would fit, yes ? I did notice her chart comparison with Emma was not harmonious. I think Emma was always second fiddle. Emma got the short end, as they say. I did notice the chart between Lizzie , and Abby was a whole lot worse than Emma and Abby. Lizzie, and Abby were rivals. Emma didn't have constant problems with Abby, but Lizzie did. Plus, I have yet to check the transits for the fatal day, and compare them to each chart. It takes a lot of greed, or anger to kill people. The odds of a killer evading the maid, or Lizzie seem a bit high. There was time to wait around. I did ask about the parlor. That is the most mysterious room, as it is rarely mentioned. Maybe he/she hid under the plinky piano !

You went all out. I agree, her Mars in Capricorn sits exactly on Abbys Uranus in Capricorn. (A sandwich) From personal experience, this conjunction is a classic "upsetter, producing nightmarish emotions."  Capricorn is a sign of ambition. The thoughts of Abby inheriting the bulk of Andrwes estate must have disturbed her greatly. A wife has more rights ? than the children. Lizzie wanted it all. She had been taught about business, and most likely thought Abby was a clod. The two young women resented the intrusion by Abby into their lives. Was Uncle John her mothers brother? If so, I imagine Lizzie asked him a lot of questions about her mother. Oh the story just drives us all mad, does it not? Another layer to this sandwich, would be to progress the chart to the fateful day. Perhaps the "triggers" will show up. Astrology is fascinating. I used to wonder if Lizzie didn't use newspapers clipped to her clothes to cover up with, and then simply burn them up in the fire. It's a thought.

My thought is that Uncle John never expected to spend the night there. He just went to arrange a meeting between Andy and WSB. But the interference of Abby delayed it, then the message was concocted to draw her away the next morning. When WSB heard of this delay, it inflamed his anger. That's why Abby had twice the whacks as Andy.

"...mercury in close conjunction with saturn -- serious, purposeful thinking -- sort of sit out there by themselves unaspected."  Isn't the Mercury inconjunct Mars?  And Mars is Retrograde, no small part of the puzzle.  Also her nodal axis is in the midst of the Venus/Sun,Jupiter cluster (south node here).  The moon wouldn't be included in the cluster, would it, unless she was born after ll:00 in the morning using a 7 degree conjunction spread?

carol:

i didn't want to go so far as to include the inconjunction as a major aspect.  i noticed no square, trine, or opposition there.  i guess i opted not to deal with it. 

i did not mean to present a comprehensive detailed analysis of the chart.  i meant to give it an overview and give an impression if i did get one.  and, as i meant to say, what caught my eye was the cancer cluster of benefic planets under opposition from mars.  add to it that pluto (which was unknown when she was born) also squares the cancer cluster.

about the moon:  you're right, it could be pretty far away.  and i probably wouldn't consider it in conjunction on the basis of available facts except for the fact that she's a cancer.

i didn't notice mars was retrograde, but it's not surprising.

obviously you know something of astrology.  what is your take on what we can know?  we are lacking info.  but if we can't speculate or theorize in spite of ignorance, then this forum might as well shut down.

I consider inconjuncts major aspects which is why I noticed.

"...about the moon:  you're right, it could be pretty far away.  and i probably wouldn't consider it in conjunction on the basis of available facts except for the fact that she's a cancer."  If it is not part of the planets squared by Pluto then it is either a singleton or conjunct the Mercury/Saturn combo. This is why I think the birthtime so important to know, because depending on its degree and house position the Moon in this chart could vastly change the picture.

Take a look at what Diana found in Robinson's closing statement regarding Lizzie's mentality and way of speaking (Mercury), on the new link Kat just put up. If you think astrologically don't you see something in those remarks about where the Moon might be?

if i follow you, that's good speculation on your part.  you're suggesting the moon is specifically part of the mercury/saturn combo inconjunct mars.  indicating a habit of making misleading or evasive statements.  (this also could amount to lying?)  there's an adjustment there she needs to make, a lesson to learn, it leads to trouble.  that the sign is leo makes sense:  a haughtiness.  or do you think the moon might be a standalone and that's the problem? 

this is also speculative, but when i first looked at it, i wanted the moon in close square to pluto because of the early loss of her mother -- not to mention the latter problem with stepmother.

what strikes me is that the moon is afflicted whether it tends toward her sun or the mercury/saturn conjunction.  consider the similiarity between a moon linked with saturn and one squaring pluto.  see what i mean?  it's mars that seems to be in charge of all this, and then pluto reinforces it.  but that trine from neptune -- touching sun/venus/jupiter -- helps a lot.  that's a gentle individual -- not a monster. 

anyway, it's interesting.  your calling attenton to the inconjunction got me to thinking further.  if you want to keep it up, i'll keep working with it. 

since we don't have the birth time, we're talking about energies/dynamics without knowing "where" to put them.  but how different from this is any of our other discussions here?  if we had to have "all facts" we would have to shut down the forum, wouldn't we?  

Please don't say that again, knockonwood.....

I haven't much idea of what you all are talking about but I did get out my years-old copy of "Destined For Murder", by Sandra Harrisson Young and Edna Rowland, 1995, and read Ed Gein and Jeffery Dahmer last night.  Getting a look at the charting and the symbols.  Sounds just like you guys but at least I'm getting immersed in the vernacular.  Wish I had learned this stuff long ago.
Who are you, haulover?

This is fascinating stuff...BTW, confirms to a lot of my own beliefs re Lizzie, but of course, that's just IMO.  I've dabbled in astrology, but certainly not to this extent.  Pls tell us more!

Yes!  I don't quite understand the lingo of astrology, but, it is fascinating.  Please, more. 

"Who are you, haulover?"  LOL.  i'm thinking..  maybe i should be investigating that instead of the world's most infamous murderess. 

look at www.abstractmusing.com and give me your opinion.

by the way, surely you know of where i can get the Preliminaries?  i'm pretty new to the borden case (though i can't remember when i hadn't heard of it) and didn't realize i was lacking this until recently.  why is it not available the same way the trial records are?

I will check you out in a bit, thanks!

In LBQ, Oct. '99 there is an article by Maynard Bertolet about "That Illusive Trial Transcript."

"...researchers have authorized access to the official trial transcript...in the research library of the Boston Public Library.  And to compound access difficulties, it is only available on microfilm...requires sitting in front of a microfilm reader and looking through frame after frame, while taking handwritten notes....

There is an option to wade through a bureaucratic labyrinth and purchase a copy.  However a copy cannot be purchased directly from the Boston Public Library.  You must first submit a letter to the Chief Justice of the Massachusetts Superior Court...grant[ing] permission...to make a purchase.  A copy of the letter is forwarded to the Boston Public Library, authorizing the purchase...end up with a microfilm copy requiring a special reader to view the film."...

--Obtaining the trial itself was a big deal as early as 1999.
--The Preliminary Hearing came directly from lawyer Jennings cache of trial material that was stored in "the Hip-bath Collection".  It was his own copy with his own notes and became available after his things were donated to the FRHS by his family.
See:
Privy, "PROCEEDINGS", pg. 7
http://www.arborwood.com/awforums/show-topic-1.php?start=1&fid=27&taid=8&topid=202

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/LBordenGiftPrelim.htm
Click on "Shipping/Privacy" for product.
Also see your letterbox?

That's a really interesting place you sent me to.
I like your style!
There's nothing "about you" there to read, yet the guestbook calls you gene.
Any more clues?  That site looks like you had a blast creating it!  Thanks.

thanks for visiting it.  i would not know what to say about myself.

"you're suggesting the moon is specifically part of the mercury/saturn combo inconjunct mars.  indicating a habit of making misleading or evasive statements...."  No, I am not. I think that Mercury and Saturn are conjuct but only Saturn is inconjunct Mars because I am giving the inconjunct a 1 l/2 degree orb.

IF the Moon is conjunct Mercury/Saturn, all in Leo, then I would think she is a serious and even hesitant thinker, who takes careful note in how she expresses her thoughts and speech and may be frustrated by how others seem to take what she says because she is trying to be so sure (Saturn)that she says exactly what she means (Mercury.)  Her flair for being dramatic or outwardly emotional (Leo Moon) would be contained and expressed seriously and maybe not as with as much "fun" and bombast as other Leo Moons more pleasantly aspected.  But I would think that she would internally feel much emotion and no doubt feel frustration that others take her to be cold. Leo needs to be petted and approved of to bring out its best and its best at cooperation, etc. and Knowlton and the police weren't doing that. If Leo is challenged like that they can well appear to be "haughty" when they are just keeping their pride intact.

Doesn't Mars Rx build up and build up and then instead of exploding outwardly, it works out problems inwardly so others aren't affected? Doesn't Mars Rx take out frustrations on themselves rather than others? She also wouldn't be good at small talk I don't think and when she talked it was important to her.  The Moon, Mercury, Saturn combo, so serious, (if so) sort of is a challenge to the Leo sign (fun) they are in. But this is all neither here nor there since we don't know where her Moon really is.

Therefore I don't think this combo means necessarily as you put it that, she has a "habit of making misleading or evasive statements.(this also could amount to lying?)" Misleading or evasive statements I tie more into a Mercury affected negatively by Pluto or Jupiter which her's isn't.

".. or do you think the moon might be a standalone and that's the problem?" I think there is much less chance the Moon stands alone.

You have drawn me into saying more than I wanted to and I will shut up now to everybody's great relief.  The reason I hesitate to go into further discussion on this is because you have already made up your mind as to Lizzie's guilt, and therefore you are already reading the aspects as ways to prove your case. And I don't look at charts that way. There are others, Stargazer, where are you, who would love to debate this with you.

The only Saturns and Mercurys that I know about are on dealer's lots or the road. Who makes the Moon? Is that a new import?

This talk about astrology makes as much sense as talking about their grandparents taste or color preferences.

...

I once read a science magazine that said all the talk about astrology is wrong because of precession (?) of the stars and planets.

(Message last edited Mar-17th-03  7:33 PM.)

I still think it's really interesting.  And also to know that this finely tuned amount of astrological work can still be dependent on the human mind which translates/ interprets it.
Thanks you guys.

"think that Mercury and Saturn are conjuct but only Saturn is inconjunct Mars because I am giving the inconjunct a 1 l/2 degree orb."

astrologically speaking, i disagree with you there.  mercury is so close to saturn that it has to be getting the same effect from mars that saturn is getting.  that's splitting hairs.  if saturn is aspected by mars, then mercury, which is linked to saturn, must figure into it.  put another way, whatever saturn is getting from mars, mercury is getting by way of its conjunction with saturn, whether directly from mars or through saturn.  people disagree about how much of an orb is allowed, but where the conjunction is concerned, there is no escaping a link.

i'm not convinced that lizzie's hand did the deeds.  but i think she's guilty of something.

let me ask you this, astrology aside, since i've said more on it than i wanted to as well -- do you believe that she is simply innocent as she would have it in her inquest testimony?  i don't think that's possible.  a murderer she was unaware of lurked about the house that morning?  her trip to the barn just happened to provide the murderer with an opportunity and a chance for escape?  does anyone believe that?

Yes, I believe that she is innocent of committing the crimes.
She was tried for her father's murder, the one for which she has an alibi (Hyman Lubinsky) and other facts.
Her weakest case would be for her stepmother's death: in the house, no alibi. But that was NOT how she was indicted!!!

Oh how I wish we had Bridgets date of birth. She could have helped. How "brave" of Lizzie to call the maid down from her attic nap. I would have run from the house had I discovered my parent dead.

Bridget was born in March 1864, says the LBQ so probably a
Pisces, the fish.  What can you tell us Stargazer?

Pisces. Emma was Pisces. A Piscean criminal generally believes he or she is committing crimes for the good of the good. Without the exact date Of Bridgets birth, I am at a general loss, but when I looked at her Picture, I was always struck by the fact she looked kind of mannish. Certainly no shrinking violet. She could have had planets positioned in Aries, which would have given her more "Go". Pisces is also mysterious, and introverted, emotionally.

My sister is a Pisces, its very true what they say about still waters running deep.  She always has a lot going on under a very calm surface.  Also, a very caring person.  Would like to learn more about Pisces. 

I have limited knowledge and at the risk of sounding naive on the subject I do tend to examine human nature and find patterns unconsciously.
I know Cancer is Cardnial Water and to me that = Ocean.
Scorpio is Fixed Water and that = a deep pool.
Pisces is Mutable Water and to me that = a flowing stream.

This is how I picture the different kinds of water per sign of water as an element.

If Pisces is mutable, a stream, I see a flowing, and a changing.
A stream is affected by the rain which swells it and by a drought which dries it up.  It can be a happy babbling brook at one season of it's life and at another be nearly barren and dried up.  How it thrives would thus be dependent on these outside forces of nature.  *How it is treated*-so to speak.
A stream also moves and is changeable...it has a destination, but it will always be moving Toward it, but not necessarilly arriving, rather adding to (like adding to the ocean) yet still itself.

The deep pool is Scorpio to me.  That has the hidden depths, never knowing what lies beneath a still surface.  Could be a surprise!  Scorpio eyes are like that deep pool to me.
Anyway, that is "Fixed" so it needs not much outside influence.  It may have an underground spring feeding it but you would never know unless you held your breath and dived down deep to see for yourself.

(Message last edited Mar-19th-03  7:46 PM.)

wow, Kat I'd say you have a really good understanding of
astrology!  I am an amatuer but believe a person's sign is
true of their nature.  You have the water-signs described
perfectly.  A lot of wishy wash going on in the Borden house.
Cancer being the strongest, a homebody yet sharp and intuitive.
Piscies the weaker, very emotional.  I think Bridgett was under
the control of her "masters" in more ways than employment, emotionally
she was weak to their powers over her.

What an interesting way of looking at it, thanks, Kat.  So, Lizzie would equal Ocean.  The ocean is very deep and hides many secrets, do you think that could equate to Lizzie? 

To me Ocean is like the MOTHER of Nature.
It is vast, it is huge.  It cannot be contained.  It is always replenished by another source.  It survives.  It also errodes.  It can errode the beach, but the sand it carries away it either uses or deposits somewhere else.  It supports life, it IS life.  But an ocean, to an oxygen-breathing creature is a terrible threat.  It drowns, envelopes and recycles those that are not in tune with it.  It is it's nature.  But only if the oxygen-needing creature attempts to conquer the Ocean. 
Yet the ocean can be whipped by storms, become a tidal wave and destroy everything.  Than it can subside and become deceptively dolice, again.
It is at the mercy of the moon, which cause the tides.
But the tides are like the ocean breathing, renewing itself.  So there is an inter-relationship with the moon and that gravitational pull.
What-ever that means to you. 
BUT --remember Lizzie, I consider, was a CUSP, and when I see cusp I know they are always going to be at odds with theirself, because they are not wholly one thing or the other.

(Message last edited Mar-19th-03  9:39 PM.)

"I know Cancer is Cardnial Water and to me that = Ocean.
Scorpio is Fixed Water and that = a deep pool.
Pisces is Mutable Water and to me that = a flowing stream"

i agree with other comments.  that is VERY insightful indeed!  those images go far in explaining the differences.

cancer (ocean) is the most comprehensive emotionally speaking, all-encompassing.
scorpio (pool) is the most secretive.
pisces (stream) has a wandering, almost "homeless" quality.

is it just water you can do that with -- that being because you are (i thought i saw somewhere) a cancer?  can you do the same with earth signs?

i'm a taurus with a cancer moon right on the ascendant.

well, i guess this is getting off the subject of lizzie borden, huh?

I like to ponder the interaction of Elements.

I was explaining a few nights ago, to a 12 year-old boy, why he doesn't get along with his sister.
It seems there are three children and 2 are water signs and the sister is a fire sign.
I explained to him the symbols of which elements = which signs and then I guided him to answer for himself, what he pictured the intereaction of water and fire, as elements, might be.

He did describe to me fire boiling water, and I needed to help him a bit with the steam created from that interaction.  The steam, at that point, a by-product, can become water again , only less, or it can evaporate.
He saw that water puts out fire, and I explined that that may be the 'weight of water' acting on the enthusiasm of fire.  It puts it out. 
These two elements are SO different this was the only way I could show him that these contretempts within his family are BOUND to occur.  I figured if he could see it coming, tho, maybe he could control the outcome somewhat.

Oooo, Kat, can you do it for all the Bordens too?  That might give us all an inkling of where all their problems lie with one another. 

I don't see why anyone who can visualize elements interacting (as in basic science or experience) can't do the same?
I really didn't think of this as a gift I have, but maybe the insight is.

As to haulover and my description of Pisces, I would add that the nature of the stream that is inter-acted upon can make a martyr type mentality...like saying look at what the world has done to me...it has hurt me or scarred me...being sensitive in that way.  (Like the stream almost dryng up and it's exposed)
I've also noted that another water sign can replenish a depleted Pisces, just with empathy, which is like the rain or melting snow filling up the drying creek...

I had worked up an earth theory, a while ago, but I'm going over it tonight, thinking.
I may be able to but I'm not sure if I was as thorough with earth as with water.  (Yes I'm water, Cancer, July 12)

It helps to have a very good friend or family member in my mind, knowing them and translating them into an element.  I did the earth with my friend who is Capricorn, and got feedback from her.

I had Capricorn as Mountain
Taurus as Rock  and
Virgo as sand.

I saw the sand of Virgo as shifting, and moving because it is mutable.  It is still earth because it is a firmament, but it's not to be depended upon.  There is dry sand and quicksand.  If you walk on the sand, meaning you are interacting with it, once you are gone your footprints disappear.  You've left no mark, sand fills in and leaves a smooth surface and no trace of you.  You cannot affect, fundamentally, sand. 
(Unless we look to another element like fire which makes glass out of sand at high heat.    But it's nature is changed in the process.  I think any self-respecting sand/Vrgo would resist that domination of fire/heat.)

--Andrew was Virgo.
>>>>>>
I'd think Taurus as rock ( Fixed) is self-explanatory.

Maybe this *earth* needs more work?

Oooh, Kat.  I love these types of theories.  Yr Cap, Taurus & Virgo seems dead-on!

Ever considered how lightning fits in with fire/water? 

that works too.  now do fire and air.

as to fire, who is the volcano? 

that's good.  lightning and water would be as volcano and earth.

so that means aires/cancer (cardinal) and leo/taurus (fixed).

what fun.

For Fire sign I have Cardinal Aries as being Volcano.  Not exactly the THING volcano, but the fire of volcano.
As cardinal, it has to be big, elemental and a force in itself.

I think it's more the fire of magma.  It burns at an intense heat and it can create or destroy.  It is also under pressure until it is released.  But how the firey flow is reacted to is the problem of what's standing in it's way.  It is the nature of the magma to move and flow.  It means nothing personal to what gets in it's way.

The fixed fire is like a campfire.  Leo.  It is there, it is useful, it is loyal, in that it can be depended upon and it provides heat for warmth.   The fixed fire is like a nesessary luxury, if that's not a contradiction.

The Sagitarius, mutable fire, is like a candle flame.  It ebbs and flows.  It becomes brilliant and dies down.   It shows light to illuminate the darkness.  It is like a light to read by, to learn by.  It is there to show the way, the path ahead, useful to show where the pitfalls are and to show where danger is.  It's portable and utilitarian.

--As to lightening, I don't know that that is fire.  I think that is electricity?  Of itself it is useless, unless it interacts or is harnassed?  I'm not sure it fits as an element.

Kat,I really love your astrology writings, they are right on the
mark, better than the astrology books, hope you continue....

  I really like that, me, the campfire!  Good stuff, Kat!