1. "What would Lizzie think?"
Posted by kimberly on Feb-17th-03 at 11:35 PM

I'm currently wondering what Lizzie would be thinking
about being so famous over a century after her trial.
What would her reaction be to the fact she is still
gossiped about? Was she drama queen enough to enjoy the
attention? It is quite different than the kind she lived
with after the trial -- for the most part the forum is
"friendly" to her -- not many jabs about her weight or
personal quirks.

She didn't work hard to become famous, she wasn't a movie
star -- she was a regular person. I know they say a lot of
serial killers enjoy the public attention they get -- they
like being talked about -- even if it is very negative. I
can't imagine how she dealt with it in her life -- and would
she be getting a kick out of this attention now?

Did Lizzie read and collect the articles published about her as Lincoln states?...Laughing at the depictions of herself in the papers?
Did she arrange to get hold of Studies In Murder, by Pearson, in 1924?
Rebello
pg. 402+

"Note: Studies in Murder by Edmund Pearson was in demand, upon Lizzie's death, at the Fall River Public Library but not at the New Bedford Free Public Library, although it had always been popular in New Bedford.

When, in 1924, three or four years before her death, a book [Edmund Pearson's Studies in Murder, 1924] was published, giving a long account of the Borden murders, the Fall River bookseller refused to keep it in stock, out of respect for Miss Borden , and with a keen eye to her patronage. His solicitude was unnecessary; she procured the book elsewhere and read it. (Pearson, Edmund Lester, Trial of Lizzie Borden, 1937, 84.)".

--If one believes this of Lizzie then I would say she might be interested in all accounts about herself...though if it were me, I don't know as I would want to read the annual articles...



(Message last edited Feb-18th-03  1:51 AM.)

Personally, I think Lizzie would be shocked and appalled by the by the attention that we give this case and the minutia of her life.  A movie out there, in living color and sound, that says that I did it?   Though, I do think she may find some things to chuckle over here and there.

If these stories about Lizzie's interest in her own case are true, one wonders where Lincoln and Pearson got such reliable information.  Did they actually interview people still living who had been acquainted with Lizzie?  Pearson's correspondence doesn't sound as if he knew much about Lizzie personally.  Lincoln could have gotten the stories second- or third-hand from family members or friends in Fall River.  I personally have very serious doubts about these stories.

I think you should take all these stories a "local color", what some people thought about the case. Reporters today expect two different and independent sources for their "facts".

It seems as if Pearson relied pretty heavily on Frank Knowlton's contributions from Hosea Knowlton's correspondence to write his first of many articles on Lizzie.
I believe their letters to each other also contain snippets of gossip about Lizzie, so that might be where these items come from that appear in Pearson.
Knowlton seems to have tried very hard to be even-handed with rumors, but the showman-writer spirit that was in Pearson may have over-rided  Frank Knowlton's restraint?

As to Lincoln...well, as to Lincoln....

I was thinking of the Knowlton-Pearson correspondence and also of Pearson's correspondence with the Scottish writer,  William Roughead, when I mentioned that Pearson didn't seem to know much about Lizzie personally.  He did seem to rely on Knowlton for his "facts."  --And of course the Knowlton with whom he was corresponding was a generation removed from the case.  I believe it was in Pearson's correspondence with Roughead that Pearson mentioned his belief that Lizzie had gotten married after her acquittal.  If he thought that, he obviously didn't know much about her!

Omagosh!  Thanks for that info!
I have tried to get Roughead, is that in there?
Is that part of Chronicles of Murder?
I can't seem to get a copy of that...

i find it hard to believe that lizzie borden could have understood that she was to become the most famous murderess in history, an icon of parricide, who through luck and cunning got away with it.

guilty or innocent, i can't believe she didn't suffer a lot from having such an awful reputation.  if she was guilty, i guess she paid for it in some ways.  just to see a headline:  MURDERER STILL GOES ABOUT FREELY AFTER KILLING HER PARENTS. 

Well, I THOUGHT it was in "Chronicles of Murder," which I do have.  It's a rather strangely-organized book, and I haven't been able to find the reference.  I'll do some further looking.  One thing did occur to me this morning.  Pearson, not Roughead, was the authority on Lizzie, so it would seem strange for Pearson to say he thought she had married.  Maybe I'm mistaken, and Roughead was the one who was misinformed.  "Chronicles of Murder" is an interesting book but not the best source of Lizzie material, since it focuses on many other cases as well.  I'll keep looking...there aren't too many places where this could be, so I aim to find it!
I did find a most amusing quote, attributed to De Quincey: "As soon as you commit a murder or so, people will begin to take away your character."  (This was in reference to Lizzie's supposed ostracization after her acquittal.)

This "loss of character" (the gossip of petty minds) will occur when anyone is accused, or indicted, for wrongdoing. Even if they are found not guilty!
See F Lee Bailey's book "Defense Never Rests" on this.

IF Pearson said he thought Lizze was married, what does this tell you about any author, even an expert? Errare humanum est.

(Message last edited Feb-20th-03  5:05 PM.)

Bill gave me info on the Chronicles book.  Thanks.  He gave me page #'s as to Pearson, mainly because I am interested in Pearson.
I think I would want that book no matter what.
The British tend to get their American Crime facts wrong, but they write so well!

That's a great quote.  I don't think I've read deQuincey, tho my British writers refer to that author.

An interesting quote of Pearson's that I believe he attibutes to Edgar Wallace is :  "Suicide is confession."

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive0602/ArchivesOld/ArchiveApearprov.htm

(Message last edited Feb-20th-03  8:11 PM.)

There's 4 copies of Chronicles of Murder for sale on Bookfinder.  3 of the 4 are in the United Kingdom and one in the USA.

http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&qi=fq1p70GVCCzvYHQJDuScI5YHTLg_3121691281_2:10:16

or

http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&qi=fq1p70GVCCzvYHQJDuScI5YHTLg_3121691281_2:10:17

Click the price to order.

Thanks you guys!
I'll have to try my library first...my NEW library.
Tho I do have gift cards for Borders in my pocket!

I've got the Roughead too Kat-a friend gave it to me. Its wonderful! What archaic words he uses. (I love the Burke And Hare treatment he did)

I think F Lee Bailey (or others) said that a defendant MUST take the stand if there is an eyewitness claiming he's guilty. Otherwise it could be a mistake. Trials are not conducted in a sterile scientific laboratory!!! There is human error.

On one trial, my fellow juror made unfavorable comments on the single mother of the victim ("all dolled up for the trial"), and that "the prosecutor was so cute just like her own son". If you were ever on a jury you may have a story to tell.

Didn't they print stuff like that in the newspapers
every year on the fourth "Borden's killer still walks
free, but SHE knows she did it" something along those
lines? I saw it in Spireing, I think.

I was going to ask haulover if he knew of a headline like that, specifically.
I think the headlines were more like:

"August 4, 1904
A DOZEN YEARS
Since the Bordens Were Brutally Butchered.
And Yet the Horrible Crime Is Unpunished.
Perhaps Murderer, or Murderess, May Be in the City --
             Who Can Tell?"

--William's Casebook, 240.

Spiering p. 201 quotes The Globe:

He -- or she -- is enjoying at least the waking hours of daily life
very much as the neighbors, well fed, well dressed, well waited on,
however the still hours of the night may be passed, whether in the solace
of refreshing slumber, or in the viewing of phantom pictures of the hideous
scenes of twelve years ago this morning. Who can tell?


"well fed, well dressed, well waited on" kind of points
to a certain flashy young heiress.


(pardon any errors -- long day)

i've seen these headlines on tv shows about the murders, but i haven't found them on internet yet.

Rebello, pg. 300:  The first article...

" 'August / One Year Ago Today the Borden Murders / Startled and Astounded the Civilized World and Yet the Murderer or Murderess Is Free to Walk the Street, or Visit the Scene of the
Carnage,' Fall River Daily Globe, Friday, August 4, 1893: 8."

I think Rebello has all the annual headlines--do you have that book?
Maybe others can start attaching the headlines here?


(Message last edited Feb-25th-03  2:25 AM.)

no, i don't have the book.  i've seen an excerpt somewhere.  seems like i saw it available somewhere but it was very expensive.

thans, btw.

Isnt that a good example of ASSUMING the worst? How many murderers have committed suicide in REAL LIFE in America this past century?
Do NOT confuse depression with guilt!!!

[We know that neither Lizzie, Emma (?), or Uncle John committed suicide. But what happened to William S Borden? AR Brown suggests he was permanently silenced by powerful forces. Sounds good to me.]

(Message last edited Feb-25th-03  5:54 PM.)

I think AR Brown's book says that was stopped around 1910 (?) when the local ministers or priests complained to the editors.
Could our darling Lizzie have made a contribution to the right people?

Defense attorneys almost never put their client on the stand.  It usually works against them.  They win more often if they just sit there and make the state work for a conviction.  One witness is usually neutralized with a witness saying the opposite. 

Good question:  what would Lizzie think of all this hoopla about her?  I would like to think she would give in and give an interview eventually, explaining what and WHO she meant when she said she hoped to live to see the day when the real killer was exposed.  But she kept mum until 1927, so I expect she'd still be mum today.  I think she would read all the stuff about herself, and laugh a good deal.  Maybe she would come on this board incognito.  But publicly I think she'd keep to herself, maybe eventually moving to a busier city where she could have the theatres nearby.  (I think she'd still prefer the theatre to any other medium of entertainment.)  I picture her as sort of a Jackie O., suing the paparrazzi, shying away from photos.  Some of her servants would have written a couple juicy tell-all paperbacks if they lived today.  Rosie O'Donnell would be one of Lizzie's strongest supporters.  Around 1960, I think Lizzie would have fought to get the bodies exhumed and then cremated, so nobody could ever test them with the modern scientific methods that were developing.  I think she would turn into a penny pincher like Andrew, when she saw the prices of things nowadays.  She would laugh if she saw a theory that was way off base and she knew it.  If she didn't feel any noticeable guilt after the murders and all during the trial, IF she did it, then I don't think she ever would feel it or show it.  If she didn't do it, I'd think after a hundred years she would say 'Knock it off!  I was innocent!' ... And, of course, she'd still be tucking little knick knacks into her handbag at Bloomingdale's and the Thomas Kincade galleries. 

F Lee Bailey's book "Defense Never Rests" (READ IT!) says a lawyer should not put his defendant on the stand except to refute a prosecution eyewitness. "Presumed innocent" and all that.

What is your experience?

Anniversary Article Headlines
Rebello, pg. 301:

"Just Two Years Ago That the Famous Borden 'Mystery' Startled the World," Fall River Daily Globe, August 4, 1894: 7.

"Three Years Passed and Gone Since the Borden Murders, Yet No Capture of the Vile Assassin Has Been Made...," Fall River Daily Globe, August 4, 1895: 8.

"Four Years Gone Since the Second Street Slaughter was Enacted / Crime Unavenged, Although the Public Is Satisfied, As to 'The Thing' That Wielded the Deadly Axe," Fall River Daily Globe, August 4, 1896: 7.

--Can you imagine what Lizzie thought being referred to in the public's mind as The Thing?
Innocent OR Guilty.....

Rebello, pg. 300+

"Five Years Ago Since the Brutal Borden Butchery Which Is Yet Unavenged," Fall River Daily Globe, August 4, 1897: 8.

"For Six Years / Has the Borden Butchery Gone Unpunished, Anniversary of the Greatest Crime of Modern Times, Perhaps Mr. Wyler Was the Guilty Person," Fall River Daily Globe, August 4, 1898: 7.

--??Huh?

I presume that "Mr Wyler" was another axe murderer of that time, one who could not have possibly done it (my interpretation).
That's like blaming John Wilkes Booth for the attempt on President Reagan?

I don't know but you made me chuckle.
I thought maybe Mr. Wyler was a newspaperman, along the lines of that headline much later which said *Nobody Killed The Borden's But The Heat.*
(?)

Rebello, pg. 269
Ran across this whilst looking for "The Money".
Is it anyway possible this is the rumor to which you refer?

"Rumors"

" 'Bordens Lived West / Lizzie Was a School Teacher and Objected to Second Marriage' , New Bedford Daily Mercury, Friday, June 29, 1893: 2.

It was erroneously reported that Lizzie lived on a farm in Glenwood Mills County, Iowa, just across the river from Omaha, Nebraska, from 1870 to 1883. It was at this time that Andrew married Abby, according to this report."

"Malvern Leader, IA, June 29, 1893.

The Nonpareil [at Council Bluffs], is authority for the statement that Lizzie Borden, who was tried and acquitted of the murder of her father and stepmother at Fall River, Mass., and whose trial created such widespread interest, was for some years a resident of Mills County, living with her parents near Glenwood. It was while living in this county that the murdered couple were married. Lizzie was a school teacher and taught in several districts near Glenwood."

I'd read F. Lee Bailey's book if I liked him.  I don't care for him.  I agree with what he said there, that the only way he'd put the defendant on the stand is to refute an eye witness.  If he had a defense witness to neutralize that, or better, tho, I don't think he'd take the chance.  My experience?  I have always loved court trials.  I've studied them for years.  I find them fascinating. 

So, do you believe everything you read in the newspapers now?