1. "--The Girls At Marion"
Posted by Kat on Mar-27th-03 at 2:57 AM

New Bedford Evening Standard
Tuesday, August 16, 1892  Page 2

THE WORK OF THE POLICE.

Difference of Opinion as to the
Fall River Tragedy.

Unfavorable Criticisms and
Unqualified Indorsements.

Expressions of Sympathy for the
Prisoner and Recent Developments.
                ............

....."There are many things which the community does not understand in connection with the case, and this is one of them.  Another is the statement of the young ladies who have been stopping at Marion regarding Miss Borden's contemplated visit.  They are reported as follows: 'As for Lizzie and her father, they were, without being demonstrative, very fond of each other.' 'We arrived on Friday, the 22d of July, and the Sunday before that would be the 17th,' said one.  'I saw her at church and urged her to come when we did, but she said she did not think she ought to.  Her father and mother were going across the river, where they had a farm, as they have always done in the summer, and Lizzie said her father, who would be in town every day and get his dinner at home, would be left alone if she went away.  She felt as if she ought to stay at home, at least part of the time, to see that everything went all right.  Still she was urged to go over to Marion with the party and told that her father could get his dinners at a restaurant or at the hotel, but Lizzie said there were often little things about his business in the way of writing that she could help him on.'
It is known that Miss Borden wrote a letter, which her father mailed on the day he was murdered, advising her friends that she would join them on Monday, the 8th.  On Thursday, the 4th, neither her father nor mother had gone across the river to the farmhouse in question, and there was nothing to indicate that Mr. Borden was intending to move that day.  If he went on Friday he would have but one day in which to visit there and be at his home before his daughter's departure, and, consequently, she could not be of much assistance to him.  It is possible, however, that her friends misunderstood Miss Borden, or that her father and mother changed their plans, thus enabling her to fix upon an earlier date for her visit.  The inquest undoubtedly settled all these points yesterday."...
.............

Evening Standard
Wednesday, August 24, 1892  Page 1

LIZZIE'S LETTER.

She Wrote Emma About Seeing
a Suspicious Character.
               ..........

...."Another matter which is commanding attention is the second letter in the case.  The first letter was addressed to Mrs. Borden, and if Miss Lizzie has been correctly reported she has stated that it was probably burned.  The second letter was mailed by Mr. Borden on the morning he was butchered.  Miss Lizzie wrote it and it is addressed to one of her friends at Marion.  If the police can secure this letter it may throw some light on the prisoner's plans and be very valuable.  Its contents have not been made public except in a general way, and nothing has been heard concerning it since the early days of the murder.  If the defence has not secured possession of this letter the government may put it in at the preliminary hearing, though just what use would be made of it if the district attorney could secure it is not known, of course."....

>>>>>>>>>

Rebello
pg. 62+

"Lizzie made a day trip to Marion, Massachusetts [July 26, 1892], about twenty-three miles from Fall River. She was going to Dr. Handy's summer home to visit friends.  It was on Wednesday evening, August 3, when Lizzie visited Miss Alice Russell. Lizzie told Alice she had changed her mind and would go to Marion on Monday, August 8. According to Miss Russell, Lizzie said:

'Well, I don't know, I feel depressed. I feel as if something was hanging over me that I cannot throw off, and it comes over me at times, no matter where I am. When I was at the table the other day, when I was in Marion, the girls were laughing and talking and having a good time and this feeling came over me and one of them spoke and said, "Lizzie, why don't you talk?" I don't know what was said after that. I don't remember of any more conversation about Marion. Whether there was or not I don't remember.' " (Trial-- 375)

"Yacht Mabel F. Swift of Fall River is now at Marion [Massachusetts]. Her owner, Charles W.
Anthony, is cruising with a party of friends, including Hon. Simeon Borden, Hon. James F. Jackson and Messrs.. Holder W. Durfee, William Winslow and R. W. Bassett."
     ......

"Sloop yacht Mabel F. Swift was at Marion, Monday, where the following ladies from Fall River are stopping at Blake's Point: Mrs. James F. Jackson, Misses Edith Jackson, Jennie Stowell, Anna C. Holmes, Mary L. Holmes, Mabel H. Remington, Louise O. Remington, Alice Buck, Isabelle Fraser, Louise H. Handy, Elizabeth Johnston, Annie C. Bush, and Lizzie A. Borden." Fall River Evening News, July 27, 1892: 8.
.....

pg. 64

"It was Miss Johnston who received a letter from Lizzie the day of the Borden murders. She destroyed the letter because it, 'contained reference to something which in the opinion of the young woman [Miss Johnston] ... that might, in the light of subsequent events, be misconstrued.' Boston Advertiser, August 24, 1893.

Sources
"Firm in Faith / Are Her Marion Friends in the Innocence of Lizzie," Fall River Daily Globe, August 15, 1892: 8.

Isn't there another reference to that letter to Marion somewhere in the Borden literature (I use that term loosely)?  Didn't the letter supposedly say something about an axe or a hatchet?  What I recall is that Lizzie is quoted as having said in that letter, "Don't bother chopping any wood before I come, because I have a sharp, new axe and will do the wood-chopping for you."  (This isn't an exact quote, but again, it's likely no exact quote is available.)  This sounds as if it might have come from one of the newspapers and probably should be discounted in that case.

Thanks for posting all that, Kat.  Of all things that should pop out at me was the date of her trip to Marion.  July 26th.  If Lizzie was on a regular cycle, she was premenstrual on that date.  Perhaps Lizzie suffered from bouts of PMS and didn't know what it was since there was no term for it then?  Just this depressed feeling that would come over her at times. 

Oooo, and I'm curious as all get-out as to what was in Miss Johnston's letter! 

Interesting stuff, some of it new to me, thanks Kat.  I had
always thought that her visit with Alice was a sham so whatever
she said was Lizzie the actress.  But I agree Susan, Lizzie
most likely had serious PMS as evidenced by her mood swings.

Edisto is correct about the legend that sprang up as to the content of that letter to Miss Johnston.
That story is what we are stuck with.
Note she cautioned about it being a rumor or maybe a news report--which that first story is that I began my post with, as you can see.
But we also now have, what the press may consider 3 Letters Thursday?
The "note" which was never found or claimed, the letter to Miss Johnston which the account states was sent Thursday, AND the letter to Emma in Fairhaven? 
Our Lizzie was very busy writing letters after midnight by oil lamp or in the morning of August 4th!

Very good point Kat, if these stories of letters/note are true.  That supposed letter to Emma has esp crossed my mind...the 1 she claims Andrew mailed for her.  But, if she did not see him that AM prior to his going out, how did he do so?  Am I missing something here?

I'm not too sure re the PMS.  That's only assuming if she did have her period in early Aug.

We think we know because of The bucket of bloody cloths in the cellar and the Prosecution & Defense stipulating (can BOTH stipulate?  Maybe they can!) that Lizzie had had her period and it was over Wednesday night.
So let's see.  Aug. 3 -minus-July 26th?  3 or 4 days on her period?  That would mean she got it around the 30th and 4 days prior to that would be--I think maybe, PMS, July 26th.

Whereabouts is it said that Lizzie did not see Andrew Thursday morning?  I'm only asking because that has been asked before, and I just remembered that.  (Rhetorical question, sorry)
I do believe Lizzie said she "spoke to them all" when she got down that morning.  (I love how that sounds so I memorized it)
Anyway, Morse was gone...he's the one she didn't see.
But here's the A-#1 question...
Morse is not related to Abby or Andrew so how come when he visits he never see's his nieces?  He goes a mile and a quarter away to visit ANOTHER niece visiting Weybosset, yet Lizzie can't say good morning uncle by coming down 10 minutes sooner?
(AND he's the post office junkie...)

This PMS talk must bother the men in the forum?  I remember my
father would leave the room if a "girdle or bra" commercial
came on TV, he was so embarrassed.  Anyway that is good to know
Lizzie's cycle.  Uncle J came on a mission (in my opinion)
and didn't need to see the girls. His sister's daughters were
of the same cloth he knew and understood and he just helped out
as he could.  I picture him as a hippie-type that was a good soul
and understanding, willing to help anyone.  I can see Lizzie writing
to him of her troubles with her father...Uncle J wanting to help
his neices out of their misery..he knew a good butcher... He knew
what a mean ol miser Andrew was and sympathizied with the girls..
Lizzie's dominant insistence got to him...
Just my thoughts!

from that from the "evening standard" i get a sense that lizzie sees herself as being a helpful or necessary part of the household.  that reminds me of lizzie saying abby wanted her to address some mailers.  i had not seen that; that's good to know.

This PMS talk must bother the men in the forum?

lol.  no -- just so long as you don't bring hatchets!

Gosh, now that you mention it, it could be construed in a lot of different ways.
It could be that she wanted the control of the wife's part, that she would see that Andrew got his meals and comfort, etc.
That would be like saying, we don't need Abby here..I can take care of Father.

Or it could be that she enjoyed Abby's absence enough to want her home to herself & her father while Abby was gone, for a change.

Or it could be that she KNEW the elder Bordens were NOT going away this summer, after all, and she has to be there for the kill, and this is the reason she gives the girlfriends, because she has done it before.
(She had stayed home from the farm in other summers).

Then there is Bridget, the maid.  AS far as I can tell, SHE is the one who gets the meals.  Unless Bridget gets a week off or more in the summer as well?  (Which might be possible but I've not heard of it).
If Bridget gets the meals, AND we have Hiram saying that Lizzie hasn't it in her character to make her father *comfortable* (in his *Interview* the day of the murder that Lizzie was not solicitus of her father to so much as help him lie down on the sofa), then I am left wondering which Lizzie are we dealing with in this instance?

Thanks for bringing up the question in my mind.  I hadn't realized there were so many interpretations of Lizzie's statements and deeds in this matter referred to.

your first paragraph suggests to me this (which makes a lot of sense) -- that the three women were competing for andrew's favors (at least, that's how they might have seen it.)  and of course, the alliance of lizzie/emma would have been vs. abby.  not to overstate gender, but a man living in a house with 4 women would have created a certain dynamic, wouldn't it?  it is necessary to ask who is controlling the household?  i don't know that this connects with the murders, but andrew is not controlling what goes on there -- but maybe he tries to with all the locks?

 

That is funny -- Andrew has no control over his own
household so he decides to lock everything up -- I
can actually imagine him feeling totally out of control
and trying desperately to have some say-so over every
little thing he can. I don't know how he lived as long as
he did with everyone being so hostile. I'm not going to
say anything overly bad about my own sex -- but women aren't
the easiest things to live with when they don't get their
way. I tend to side with Abby out of everyone -- I think
after her being his wife & their mother all those years Andrew
should have slapped Emma & Lizzie down for being smart asses
and not just tried to make peace with them.  

This dynamic of 3 women (4 with Bridget) is important I think
to the emotional state of that household.  Plus being grown
women who should have been married off a long time ago.  (I bet
Andrew wouldn't have paid for a wedding anyway!) 

Isn't it Andrew's duty to dower a daughter?
Or had that gone out of style by, say, 1890?
I had heard that in old Fall River, when a son married he brought his bride to live in his parent's house until such time as their new family began to grow and then they were helped out to build their own place.
This seems to be what Andrew did with his first & second wives.
But we're talking daughters here.

I've been wondering about Abby lately.
We've heard the thoughts of members here who try to figure out how Abby could be so slaughtered without someone really hating her.
Possisbly, a victim might somehow play a role in their own death.
So I've been trying to picture Abby as a real life *mean-ole-good-for-nothing*.  It's hard, but I'm trying.  If she in some way contributated to her own death by being a nasty virago, I sure would like to know about it!

The way Bridget spoke of Abby makes it seem like she was
a reasonably nice person -- probably not cuddly or anything,
but I can't see her taking a switch to Emma & Lizzie or
getting onto them about getting sassy or bossing them around
as adults -- if Abby was indeed a bitch it seems like if there
was a person capable of killing living in that house they
would have killed her years before.

I appreciate your reply and that it was understood about a person *contributing to their own death*.  I thought that sounded non-politically correct.  But I don't know how else to express the REAL factors that contribute to a person being hated enough to become a victim of such a horrible slaying.
I guess any slaying is horrible.
Like the man who was run over by his wife, several times!
In that way, I mean contributed.  So I think to be truly hated someone has to really make an enemy.
If Abby were just assasinated to get to Andrew that would be one thing.  But all this time I truly felt that she was the REAL victim, the intended victim.  Then I try to find something she did that was so bad, or many somethings that she did, and I just can't see it!

Of course, men who don't get their way are all so pleasant to live with!!! So unlike others?

Ever hear about a married son living in the same house w/ parents?
A house with one kitchen isn't big enough for two cooks.
Ever hear of the stories from Depression Days?

I think Abby was pleasant enough with her own relatives, and really tried to be a good mother with the girls. Tried as hard as she could. But if Emma didn't like her stepmother, little Lizzie may have followed her lead.

"The apple doesn't fall far from the tree."

I totally reject the idea of Abby "contributing to her own death"!!!
The very fact of her marriage to a widow who had a hidden past does not reflect badly on her. Ever hear of men who married while living in another part of the country (or overseas) and bringing back a new wife to his hometown. (Some of you may be able to comment on this?)

I don't agree that Abby was the intended victim unless it
is just to be sure she went first.  I hold to my opinion that
it was an "outside job" and all about the money. 

I think men who don't get their way give up after awhile.

Rebello, pg. 64

"Lizzie's Vacation Plans"

"Lizzie was to vacation with friends in Marion, Massachusetts, at the summer cottage of Dr. Handy. Friends at the cottage included Dr. Handy's daughter; Miss Louise Holmes Handy (1876 - ?), a school teacher; Miss Isabel J. Fraser (1863-1936) a teacher at the Nathaniel B. Borden School in Fall River, formerly the Morgan Street School where Lizzie attended; Miss Anna Covell Holmes (1861-1943), a teacher and her sister, Miss Mary Louisa Holmes (1859-1934), a former teacher at the Nathaniel B. Borden School and the daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Charles J. Holmes; **Miss Elizabeth Murray Johnston (1861-1907), a principal at the Broadway School in Fall River and Sunday school teacher at Central Congregational Church; Miss Annie Childs Bush (1864-1912), a teacher at Foster Hooper School in Fall River; Miss Louise O. Remington (1869-1950), a teacher at Mount Hope Avenue School in Fall River and her sister Mabel H. Remington (1866-1956), a teacher at the Pine Street School in Fall River; Miss Alice Lydia Buck (1855-1944), daughter of Rev. Augustus Buck; Mrs. James Frederick Jackson (Caroline S. Thurston and daughter of Rev. Eli Thurston, D.D. of Central Congregational Church); the wife of the former mayor of Fall River; Miss Edith Jackson (1883 -?), nine year old daughter of Mrs. James F. Jackson; and Miss Jennie Stowell. The Misses Buck, Bush, Fraser, Anna and Mary Holmes, Johnston, and Louise and Mabel Remington and Mrs. James F. Jackson were members of Central Congregational Church in Fall River and served on various committees at Central Congregational Church.

Note: No information was found on Jennie Stowell."

--Miss Johnston, who received the letter from LIzzie and would not divulge it's contents, was apparently a school principal, and one year younger than Lizzie.
--I wonder if Lizzie ever compared herself to her friends who worked in the world...if she would have preferred working.
--The info as to Lizzie's friends, Rebello, pg. 64, has been posted before.

Knowlton Papers, Glossary A, has a different birth year for Miss Johnston, making her 2 years older than Lizzie:

** "JOHNSTON, MISS ELIZABETH MURRAY 1858 - 1907: born in Fall River, Massachusetts, daughter of Thomas and Annie (Murray) Johnston. Educated in the Fall River public school system, she furthered her studies at Bridgewater Normal School. She taught school in Myricks, Massachusetts, before returning to her native city where she continued in that vocation for twenty-five years. Beginning as a subordinate teacher, she advanced to serve as principal in two institutions. An active Congregationalist, she was also a member of several professional organizations. Her death came unexpectedly at her residence in Fall River. In Marion, Massachusetts, the day of the murders, she was sent a letter there by Miss Lizzie A. Borden."

--Dr. Hoffman's book say's Miss Johnston "Appeared at the Preliminary Hearing and before the grand jury."  She is not listed as a witness in my Prelim.
I wonder how one finds out who definetly appeared before the grand jury?



(Message last edited Apr-2nd-03  11:23 PM.)

I think today they submit lists in advance to the court of prospective witnesses. For some reason or another not all are called to testify.

Whether that was true in 1893 is another story.  It would be nice to know though who was called (or not called) at the Inquest.

The Inquest being *secret* and the grand jury being *secret*, I sure don't know how any press got any names.
Maybe it is a mistake in Hoffman, and he didn't mean the Preliminary Hearing?
So far, the only name called at Inquest, listed in Witness Statements, who doesn't appear at Inquest in our transcriptions [that I can tell], is Allen Eagan who was probably Ellen Eagan.

I'm looking everywhere for Miss Johnston & her letter and have covered Rebello, Knowlton, Casebook, and Evening Standard articles and Rochester articles.  That lastly leaves Sourcebook.. She will probably BE in the last place I look.

There appears to be quite a number of people who were "summoned" to testify at some proceeding or another but did not actually do so. This is just a quick list from the Knowlton papers, Glossary A. I'm sure I missed a few.

Alexander H. Coggeshall
Policman Patrick Connors
James E. Cuneen
Mary Doolan  (the Kelly maid)
George L. Douglas
Edward P. Downs
Oliver H.P. Durling
Francis W. Eddy  (Borden farm)
Edith A. Francis
Elizabeth A. Gormley
Jane B. Gray
William L. Hacking
George W. Hathaway
Alfred Johnson  (Borden farm)
Frank H. Kilroy
Kate Leary
Patrick F. Lorrigan
William R. Martin
Leander A. Winslow
Mary B. Wyatt (lived over Dr. Bowen)

OOPS, Harry, your post wasn't there when I started composing!

Good idea to look at the Glossary for *missing* witnesses.!
Didn't somebody named Case leave town, and Wyatt refused to be interviewed after "dodging" the officers for more than a week!
.....................
Of course Miss Johnston, who I seek, is not in the Sourcebook (at least overnight,to pg. 118).
But she was in the last place I looked.  The Witness Statements:
Now we need to verify if Lizzie Johnson & Elizabeth Johnson & Miss Elizabeth Johnston are all the same person. 

(W.S.)
Sept, 25th, possibly Harrington, pg. 20:
"Elizabeth M. Johnson, No. 24 Ridge street. 'I have said all I think I should about that letter.' "

(W.S.)
Medley  pg. 33-34:  [out of date sequence]
"Fall River September 12, 1892.
I visited Miss Lizzie Johnson at Myricks on Saturday. She refused to make known to me the contents of the letter she received from Lizzie Borden on the day of the Borden murder, until she had consulted Mr. Jennings. I talked with her for two hours, but was unable to make her change her mind. She met Mr. Jennings Saturday night. I saw her again today, when she informed me that Mr. Jennings told her she need not tell me the contents of the letter if she did not want to; and she did not want to. I have seen the other girls who were at Marion at the time. None of them will talk. I have made all this know to Mr. Knowlton, and that gentleman instructed me to procure all their names, and give them to you, in order that they may be summoned to appear before the Grand Jury. The names are as follows; Mary L. Holmes, Isabel J. Fraser, Lizzie Johnson, Louise Remington, Mabel H. Remington."

--So this is where a partial list came from of grand jury interviewees.
--I have not found the scandalous story of what was in that letter.
Checking Sourcebook for the dates in September mentioned above, there was not an item relating to the letter.  Are we down to an *author* now? 

Pearson- pg.22:
"At some time in the weeks that followed, the District Attorney investigated a number of reports and rumors. The matter of the prisoner's sanity was not raised by the defence, then or later, but it had been questioned by someone, so a study was made of the family history. Nothing of any significance was discovered. Positive assertions had been made that the accused woman, before the murders, had written a mad letter to friends in Fairhaven, saying that she had a new ax and was having a fine time whetting it. This is one of a dozen similarly wild tales: no such letter was written or received."

--Not in de Mille or Lincoln, that I can find.
--Just WORD searched Porter and the Johnston letter is not in there.







(Message last edited Apr-3rd-03  8:26 AM.)

this is from radin, for what it's worth:  (he doesn't give his source)

"Several days before the murders Lizzie wrote to some friends that before coming up to visit them she would get a sharp ax to make certain she did not freeze.  She was referring to an episode that had occurred the previous summer when they were together at the same cottage.  On the first chilly evening they found that the logs on hand were too large for the fireplace and the ax so dull they could not chop the wood to fit.  They had to search constantly for small branches and twigs in order to keep warm.  A reporter who went to Marion to interview Lizzie's friends after the murders either misunderstood her reference in the letter or let his imagination run wild.  He wrote that Lizzie had bought a sharp ax just prior to the murders.  Before the police learned the real meaning of the letter, officers questioned every hardware merchant in Fall River and for miles around.  They found no one to testify that Lizzie had purchased an ax."

Just to be a devil & add fuel to this fire (just chopped some nice fresh wood, hahaha) --

This topic came up many moons ago on the old board.  Someone suggested Lizzie could have purchased a new hatchet while on her solo shopping excursion in New Bedford (July 23, '92).  It was also suggested she could have picked 1 up on the sly, ala "The Legend of Lizzie Borden" movie.

All this talk about all those women going on vacation
reminds me of slumber parties -- I may be the only one
who did this, but -- aw, nevermind. I'll just say, I wonder
if Lizzie & the girls spent any time keeping their kissing
skills up-to-date?

Radin--That's it!
Thanks, that's what I was looking for.
It still could be elsewhere?
Might as well see how or if the story changed--that's always interesting.
Radin, BTW, was said to have had access to the Jenning's "Hip-bath collection", for what it's worth.  (Not to say the original news account is in there...)

There were many needed reforms that were made in the 1950s and 1960s (the Warren Court) that balanced the trials in the USA. For example, exculpatory testimony must be given to the defense. (Remember the Jenck's Trial?) Both sides get to interview the witnesses, then pick the ones needed for their case. If ten witnesses basically say the same thing, not all would be called. They do have a budget for time and money!

Most people forget that Earl Warren was a Calif Prosecutor, Atty General, and Governor who backed Nixon in 1952. The Supreme Court job was his reward. A strange reputation for a former right-winger. Maybe when he saw how things really worked, this affected him. Like some newspaper reporters?

The reason for secrecy is simple justice. If, say Katy, was being investigated for copyright violation due to a complaint, and no evidence was found, the case would be dropped. Otherwise it could be used for political smearing by spreading baseless charges. Not that has never been done in the 1950s?

AR Brown says Ellan Eagan wanted to testify that she saw Bridget Sullivan washing windows that day. Since Miss Bridget was not a suspect, and needed no alibi, there was no reason to call her then.

(Message last edited Apr-3rd-03  5:35 PM.)

I may be able to check a book per night.
I don't find reference to Johnston's letter in Kent.

Actually the town of Marion is repeatedly referred to in Lincoln.  I've double-checked.  The Girls at Marion supposedly said that Lizzie would sooner commit murder than LIE about it!

Now, in Knowton Papers, pg 227, Alice's letter says first sentence, that when Lizzie came over to her house Wednesday evening she had said she had written to Marion.
So that would be a letter possibly sent Thursday to Miss Johnston, but written previously to Lizzie's leaving the house to see Alice, Wednesday.

Finally found one of the sources that refers to the older Borden couple supposed to be going to the farm that summer, and why they did not go:

Sourcebook, pg. 137, Fall River Herald, no date, probably August 20th or 21st, Saturday or Sunday, 1892.

An interview with Mrs. George Brigham:
"...Now let me tell you about the arrangement  for her [Lizzie] outing at Marion just previous to the tragedy.  I was invited to be of that party, and like her I could not go with those who went first, although the fact that she couldn't has been spoken of as so singular.  She couldn't go because her father and mother were going to Swansey.  Her mother was depending upon a certain woman to go with her as a companion, as Mr. Borden spent so much time in town that she would not remain over there alone.  They found they couldn't get the woman and so gave up the idea, and Mrs. Borden told Lizzie to go on with her plans.  Previous to this, Lizzie had promised to act as substitute for the secretary of the Christian Endeavor Society at it's meeting on Sunday--it was an important consecration and business meeting.  Had it not been for this she would have gone to Marion on Saturday, but she would not break her word.  It was early in the week when her mother told her she might go on with her plans, and she determined to visit her mother's cousin, Mrs. Morse, at Warren, for a couple of days, and wrote her to that effect.  She was taken violently ill on Tuesday morning, and Wednesday morning, not feeling well enough, she wrote to Mrs. Morse that she could not come.".....

--Now we have another letter, this time to Mrs. Morse of Warren, giving regrets she couldn't come to visit, AND a letter sent firstly, (at the beginning of the week?) saying she would.

--Still, all along I am heading toward wondering why the Borden elder's did not go away that summer as they mostly usually did.  And if the killer(s) was aware that they would not be going.  I can't help thinking the farm at Swansey was where a murder might more logically take place... And if some other plan was foiled by this woman who could not go at the last minute to be companion to Abby while Andrew was gone days to town.  (Maybe it saved her life?)

In my opinion, the illness (diarrhea) would prevent any sane person from going on a long trip, then or now. Maybe kaopectate was needed?

Does this make sense?
The Borden elder's were going to go to Swansea.
Therefore Lizzie couldn't go to Marion.
Since the elder's Didn't go, because the "companion" cancelled, Lizzie was then free to go to Marion after all?
Is that what this friend is saying?
What difference does Lizzie make in their plans...that she has to stay at Seconf Street if Mr. and Mrs. Borden go away that week/
Does that make sense?

It sounds like Lizzie is willing to put business ahead of pleasure. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

If the elder Bordens left to go to Swansea, and Lizzie was gone to Marion, there would be no one in the house but Bridget.  It doesn't sound like she accompanies them on their trips there.  Perhaps they felt that Bridget needed guidance while the lady of the house was gone, someone to check to make sure she was doing her work?  Andrew would be back and forth into town and I'm sure he'd stop in at the house to see how things were.  Thats the only thing that comes to my mind as to why Lizzie couldn't leave right away. 

Oh Ma Gosh!
NOW I have visions of Bridget's wild parties!  (ha!)

Or maybe Andrew stayed at home during the week and a "chaperone" was required for that?

Oooo, you know, I didn't think of that, how very Victorian!  Andrew can't be alone with the young, voluptuous Bridget.  You've read that psychic, Jane somebody, who states that there was some sort of sexual violation done down in the wood room in the basement.  Now I've got chills. 

Maybe Andrew attacked Bridget & she told Abby and she
didn't believe her & so Bridget killed her in a rage &
then Andrew came home & she killed him & Lizzie was
cool with it becuase it saved her from having to kill them?

Well, then theres the opinion that it was Lizzie who was attacked by Andrew or possibly Uncle John and the same situation occurred.  It gives me the heebee jeebees just thinking about it whether it was Lizzie or Bridget.  Yikes! 

It could have really been almost anyone -- I like it being
Bridget bringing a crazy guy home the night before, I'm sure everybody has done that at least once.

I hope you don't mind me saying you are cute, Kimberly!
From one girl to another!
Your faces are so expressive too.

Andrew was 70 years old!  Do 70 year old's act that way?  Maybe they do, I don't know.  Maybe a rich man who thinks he can do what he wants?

Anyway, about Bridget bringing home a man, that's interesting that you brought that up.
One reason is because buried deeply in the Evening Standard, so deeply I may not be able to find it again, was a snippet of a reference to Bridget's Inquest testimony and a question or two asked her on this very subject!  (that didn't quite sound the same as the questions asked at the Prelim.)
Also, remember Morse asks if someone could have been secreted in the house overnight. (W.S. 3&4)
Rather good instincts you have.

I hope to find that reference again.  Maybe someone will find it first?

I think you are being as foolish as Henry Trickey. But the printing of this article shows 1) less censorship in those prudish Victorian times, and, 2) people would be likely to believe this.
Not that "little green men from outer space did it"!

I believe that the two impressions in the straw in the barn refer to the presence of two visitors who spent the night there. See AR Brown (?) on this, or the 1963 Trial of LB edited by G Gross (as I remember it). Morse asking this question, and getting a "No", is a good way to get rid of this idea. (Also asks if the Prosecutor suspects anything?)

Well, I don't mind! I just hope people don't feel
like I insult their intelligence by using the smileys
as much as I do -- I think they are can really make
your point if you are being a bit sarcastic.

And, about 70+ year old men chasing girls -- they do.
A man in our town -- in his 80's and walking with a
cane -- was arrested for groping a woman waiting in line
to get her car tags. Right there in the court house,
the police station is in the basement too! I think if
people have a screw loose you are not safe with them
even if they are 100.

Maybe it can be explained by arteriosclerosis? One reason why older people are forced to retire at age 65 in most corporations (or younger?). Trying to relive a wild youth? It could've been worse.
I wonder now about the reasons some old men want to play Santa.

Hmmm, I wonder if that would explain why some little
kids are afraid of Santa? I never had any negative
Santa experiences -- but, of course, I never would sit
on any of their laps either.

Rays, why am I being foolish?  I didn't say I subscribe to this opinion.  I merely stated that there is that opinion out there, a psychiatrist did a study of the case and their findings were that the way Lizzie acted along with the murders put them in the frame of mind that she was a victim of incest.  Does this atrocity never occur in the best of homes?  Does it not still occur today?  Or, is it only something perpetrated by little green men? 

"Grenier, Margaret Judge. 'Lizzie Borden: Violator or Victim.' Proceedings: Lizzie Borden Conference. Ed. Jules R. Ryckebusch. Portland, ME: King Philip Publishing Co., 1993. 13-37.
Paper presented at the Lizzie Borden Conference at Bristol Community College, Fall River, Massachusetts, August 3-5, 1992."

"Kane, Stephen W. 'Lizzie Borden, Anxious Attachment and Forty Whacks: A Systemic Exploration of Incest and Parricide.' Proceedings: Lizzie Borden Conference. Ed. Jules R. Ryckebusch. Portland, ME: King Philip Publishing Co., 1993. 47-72.
Paper presented at the Lizzie Borden Conference at Bristol Community College, Fall River, Massachusetts, August 3-5, 1992."

"McNamara, M. Eileen. 'Was Lizzie Borden the Victim of Incest?' Rhode Island Medicine (Feb. 1993): 95-97. Rpt. in Proceedings: Lizzie Borden Conference. Ed. Jules R. Ryckebusch. Portland, ME: King Philip Publishing Co., 1993. 39-45.
McNamara examines Lizzie's character and concludes that the family dynamics and extreme personalities suport the theory of incest as a possible cause of Lizzie killing her father and step mother. This article was later presented at the Lizzie Borden Conference at Bristol Community College, Fall River, Massachusetts, August 3-5, 1992."

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/BibliographyCase.htm#essays
LABVM/L, "Resources".

Come to think of it, the *victims* of alien abduction are thought to be possibly acting out an incest memory, giving it a more exotic & mysterious background as outer space visitors *probing* them.
That's not such a faulty analogy...

(I don't know if alien abduction occurs, or if victims who have these memories are really victims of anything.  I'm not a doctor or scientist but I do play one on T.V.)

Susan, you are NOT being at all foolish.  It is a theory expressed by more than one author and more than one article.  See Kat's post previous to this one. And there are others.

One does not have to necessarily believe a theory to put it forward. Theories are exactly that..theories. 

As I have said before if Lizzie is our murderess there has to be a reason for the extent of the hatred inflicted on both victims.  Incest is one possible reason.  Note the word POSSIBLE.

It is just as much worthy of discussion as any other theory, distatsteful as the subject may be.  Double hatchet murders are not exactly tasteful either.

Thank you, Kat and Harry.  As I had stated, I don't necessarily subscribe to that opinion, but, it doesn't mean we can't discuss it here.  I think the thing about it that freaks me out the most outside of the act itself would be Lizzie's powerless state.  If no one believed her or came to her rescue, she would have been trapped in that house with her father or Uncle John with no escape.  Where could she go?  What could she do?  I don't know if there were any safe houses for battered women then.  You can definitely see where Lizzie could have worked up a head of steam to commit these crimes. 

Hi Susan,

Perhaps there were good reasons why the doors separating Andrew's and Lizzie's bedrooms were double locked and why lizzie had a writing desk in front of her door.

As for the incest theory, I totally think it's within the realm of possibility. It's not like it's new to our generation.

That's my two cents.

what show are you on?  i'll be sure to tune in.

i noticed the legend movie suggests incest.  if you're looking for why lizzie would go that far in retaliation for incest, it makes sense that she would murder them both.  because typically both parents are aware of it.

we don't have any evidence to support it though, that's the problem.  you might as well be talking about how lizzie murdered abby's cat to piss her off.

I wanted to talk about Virgo's.
I don't see a Virgo (Virgin) being that sexually promiscuous.
Those of that sign that I have known are not naturally affectionate, don't really like to touch or be touched, and their real feelings are more likely to be repressed.
It might have to do with a sense of decorum, a well-developed sense of modesty and personal dignity.  Also, that they do not need to *give themselves away*, as say, surrendering to such physical urges.

That is my experience of Virgo.  A Virgo male born in early 1800's, who is of Quaker stock, might be more repressed than one now-a-days.
So as you say, we can't know.

I would think that Lizzie was rather old to finally *react* to that kind of abuse.
But I'm no expert.  That is just my feeling.
..................
As to being on T.V., I was a member of the *peanut gallery* at one broadcast of a show called "Captain Sacto", a big deal Kid's program in Sacramento around 1960.  Played myself.
Was an audience member, along with Stef, on the Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson where Stef was picked to play "Stump The Band", and won tickets for 4 to a big Italian dinner in L.A..  I believe that show was in March. of 1984.  Beta was still the tape used to dupe from T.V.  I played myself, just sitting grinning at Johnny.  (I had made friends with our fellows in line and also our seat mates--that's me playing myself).  Stef chose to include 2 people we met in line to join us for dinner after the show.  Also on that trip we both were taped going onstage at Family Fued and giving Richard Dawson a kiss and green carnations for St. Patricks day.
That was my only appearance where I wound up on the cutting room floor.  (We realized later the presentation of green flowers would date the show as to time of year, and when re-runs are shown, that doesn't play well.)
Other than that, Stef has been an extra in a real movie and made a few commercials for the local news on our Public Library.

Incest could be a possibility motive but is it a probability motive?

Haulover, I enjoyed your "we don't have any evidence to support it though, that's the problem.  you might as well be talking about how lizzie murdered abby's cat to piss her off."

Someone mentioned whether Andrew was after Bridget or Lizzie in "theory" of course. Consider another bizarre theory, that Bridget was actually after Andrew. She had all along wanted to discharge Abby, Emma and Lizzie, and take over the household as the third Mrs. Borden. Bridget had already done in Mrs. B. that fateful day and after Lizzie went to the barn, she crept into the sitting room and tried to seduce Andrew once again, he wouldn't have it, and she took out the hatchet she had carried in to do his nails with and there you have it.

Also, as far as I know, Virgo's are certainly capable of sexual promiscuity.  It's where that Virgo puts his Venus, oh, excuse me, what sign his Venus is in (and Mars) that might have more to do with a Virgo's capability in that department than his sun.

I did not mean to insult you, only that reporter Henry Trickey reported that Lizzie was in "the family way" back in 1892. In fact LAB had just been visited by her "fleas" that week. Brown's book gives a good account of it; was this censored from earlier books?

Yeah, you could see that happening, but, who would
want Lizzie and Emma as stepchildren? Them two wasn't
going nowhere.

Well, the psychiatrist's evidence were Lizzie's behaviour and two mutilated corpses.  Its just one way of explaining the hatred of the killings.

Now, thats an original thought, Carol!  I don't know if anyone has ever put forth that idea of Bridget wanting Andrew for herself.  I mean, who knows, stranger things have happened in this world. 

  Where Virgo puts his Venus.  Thats good.


Rays, no problem, live and let live.  I know what Trickey wrote and obviously it was all a prefabricated story.  This is just one of those things that I don't think we would ever have physical proof on if Lizzie had been violated.  Who would she go to for help?  And the stigma and shame to the family name if something like this got out in that time period.  This is just a little game of what if, try this on for size and see if it fits. 

Actually, Henry Trickey did NOT fabricate this story. He paid good money for it in order to scoop the competition. The police detective who led him on fabricated the story. (Did you see last Sunday's 'Dragnet' show on TV?)

One of the books noted that Trickey was a target because of an earlier story on police malfeasance. So he was set up, his career ruined, and this led to his death. Trying to get information from Bridget (who now worked for the Sheriff), he (may) have been set up with a witness tampering rap. He fled to Canada, and had an "accident".

Yes, Trickey said that he did not create the story, that he allegedly got it from McHenry.  What a mess that whole bit was. 

well, i'm just saying there is nothing there in evidence to support incest.  it's speculation, which we are inevitably going to do from time to time.   sometimes such speculation can lead to something, you never know.  what we do have in fact though is that it doesn't appear to be a happy household.  the girls have themselves pretty much segregated from the elders, and all this locking is a sign of distrust.

i agree with you about venus and mars; and also the moon for that matter, which would say something about his habits.  but i've never looked at andrew astrologically.

i think that virgo in its pure form is not into sex.  but in astrology, there is no end to the configurations that can happen.  i can see how it could work out that a virgo, who is not naturally needful of a healthy form of sex, could end up being a pervert of some sort.  for precisely that reason, a perversion manifests.  you see what i'm saying?  i'm not talking about andrew, just astrology.  i know from reading charts that sometimes astrology works in a capricious way.  for example, scorpio is generally believed to be the most sexual sign; yet what that can mean is a spartan-like repression of sexuality.

Yes, I can see that in a male, but for some reason not in a female Virgo.  But I guess it would have to apply to both?

most perverts are male, so i guess you have a point.  probably with females, the problem would turn inward and manifest more in the form of repression or cunning as opposed to aggressive acts.   (that's just my initial reaction to what you're saying.)

I wonder if any of Lizzie's other single girlfriends had such problems at home?
If not, they would never understand.
If so they might protect her secret.
If she had been abused, I also wonder if those legasies to those girls (some new friends,&  a couple from her youth?) made sure they kept their mouths shut?

I think incest was most likely common those days, even in the wealthy families. As you say, where would the girl/woman go for help.  And since she couldn't talk it most likely never be known outside the family.  Doctors might know, if the female wasn't married, living at home and not known to have boyfriends, if he examined her for one reason or another. But he wouldn't say anything, as the father or male involved would be paying the bills and the patriarchs covered for each other.

There could very well have been incest involved in the Borden family, but we'll never know for sure now. Because of the age of the sisters when the murders occurred I would put incest farther down on my list of motivations for the crimes (that's why I said possible not probable), if Lizzie did do it.  But if incest did happen, even if just when she/they were younger, then it isn't so far off the beam to think that the sisters gained some sort of satisfaction from the fact (if they acknowledged Andrew had no right to abuse them in such a way) that he would no longer ever do it again!

From what I've read about incest, its something that starts at a young age and goes on for years and years if not stopped.  The thought entered my head about how much Lizzie resembled her dead mother, would that be something that could be a contributing factor if incest was actually a problem in the Borden household?

How very interesting to see the pictures you posted side by side! Thanks.  Point well taken, the resemblance of Lizzie to her Mom might have been a contributing factor to any possible incest. Sometimes parents particularly like or dislike children who look like their spouses. In such a way then Andrew would have covertly kept his first wife and had his second one too. It would have set up much tension between Abby and Lizzie if such was the case. Don't like to even think of the ramifications of that. Don't know, don't know.

I haven't at hand how old Lizzie's Mom was when she died, but what if it corresponded to what age Lizzie was at the time of the murders?

Incest has a lot to do with power and domination too, being maybe the main motive instead of sex that is behind incest,but a professional would know more about that than I would.  Andrew was a man that needed control in all aspects of his life.  Wonder that if such was the case that Lizzie, if it was her, didn't aim a little lower on Andrew?

Funny Carol, (re: aiming lower).  I have a hard time believing
any incest theories, it just doesn't seem to fit with the
prudishness of Andrew and the stubbornness of Lizzie, I think she
was too strong a woman to be a victim. Just my opinion but I could
never buy the incest/pregnant stuff. 

Carol, Sarah Borden was 39 when she died.  What you just posted has set me on a new track, something I didn't give thought to when posting the pictures!  Outside of the incest theory, Andrew may have favored Lizzie because she did look so much like her dead mother!  Lizzie may have gotten away with quite a bit due to her possibly knowing that she looked like Sarah and used this as her trump card with Andrew on more than one occasion.  Besides causing problems with Abby, imagine what it was like for poor Emma?  Lizzie possibly being the favored child and the baby to boot.  Thanks for stirring my thoughts! 

NJWolfe, as I had stated before, I don't subscribe to the incest theory, just wanted to speculate a bit on it.  I'm like a kid with a new toy sometimes and just have examine from all angles before I put it down.