1. "Morse-a Real Character"
Posted by augusta on Mar-8th-03 at 8:18 PM

I was reading in Rebello the other day, in the part where Morse tries to get his mileage re-imbursement for the trial.  The treasurer asks "Where do you have your wash done?"  Morse goes, "Don't have any done; when one shirt is soiled I throw it away and buy another."
(p. 272)  

This whole exchange is humorous so I thought I'd post it here:
(From Rebello, p. 272)

"John V. Morse appeared at the county treasurer's office to collect his witness fees.  Fees were based on mileage.  The following conversation was recalled by the treasurer.

(Treasurer):  Where do you come from?
(Morse):      From Iowa.
(Treasurer):   Ah!  and how far is that?
(Morse):      About 1600 miles.
(Treasurer):  Where were you summoned from?
(Morse):      From Fall River.
(Treasurer):  Where do you live?
(Morse):      Don't live anywhere about here; just knocking about now.
(Treasurer):  Where do you have your wash done?
(Morse):      Don't have any done; when one shirt is soiled I throw it away and buy another.
(Treasurer):  Where have you been stopping recently?  Where do you call your home for the present about here?
(Morse):      Oh, well, I s'pose South Dartmouth (Massachusetts) is as near to it as any place.
(Treasurer):  And how far is that?
(Morse):      About two and one-half miles.
(Treasurer):  Well, I'll allow you three miles."      

Thanks, Augusta.  Sounds like ol' Morse thought he was going to get paid for those 1600 miles. 

When Harry was really into the Morse citations in Rebello he did notice that about 1/2 the news items about Morse in his Hastings adopted home-town were favoravble and 1/2 were detrimental.  I wonder why some saw him as so black and others as so white?
His 1/2 sister didn't seem to like him much.

I think some saw him as so "black" because he never bathed!!  The other half who thought he was swell probably couldn't get close enough to him to really get to know him.    I mean, a year or two in ONE SUIT?  He admitted he never did laundry. 

I can see him sitting in the Borden home the morning of the murders. 
Abby:  "Good Lord, what's that smell?"
Morse:  "Dunno.  I think I saw a horse go by a minute ago.  Carriage Number 685432A.  Carriage door was open."

Wasn't he a kind of smooth talker?  Kind of put on airs sometimes? 

I agree, Susan.  I'm sure he would have taken mileage from Iowa if he could have. 

Augusta, that's a FUNNY post! I love him getting the serial number of the carriage.

I just wished they had included him in the "Legend" movie. Would they have written him in as comic relief?  And who would have played him?

Who else would have spent the entire afternoon in the back yard the day of the murders?  Quite a character indeed!

(Message last edited Mar-9th-03  9:22 AM.)

He also was hard of hearing which could only add to the mystique and humor of it all. Note this exchange from the Inquest:

Q.  When you came back, after you had been here a short time, you came to see them, this time?
A.  Yes. When I first came, my horses were troublesome, I could not come for three or four weeks.
Q.  How often did you come to see them after that? Are you a trifle hard of hearing?
A.  No, I thought I could hear as well as any one.
Q.  How often did you come to see them after that?
A.  Sometimes once a week; sometimes once in three or four weeks; sometimes once in three months, just as it happened.

Now if this is true, that he was hard of hearing, then all his testimony about "hearing" people come home and not hearing Lizzie in her room and such could be suspect. Perhaps that was the reason for the question----to put doubt in the minds of judge. Morse was 58 at the time of his testimony.

No wonder Andy was so fond of him!!!
"What would Andy do?"

Rays - I do believe that perhaps the strongest bond that kept Andy & Morse together was their common frugality. Even Andrew, tho, might have been a little disgusted with the clothing habits of his.  I can picture Andrew ignoring it, while Abby's covering her face as subtly as possible to keep from gagging. 
I can understand Morse's sense of hearing being abnormal.  After all, we know he lost his sense of smell a while back ... 

If there were a cartoon version of the case, I'd vote for  Schultz's Pig Pen as Morse.  A movie version?  I think maybe Daniel what's-his-name?  Oh, come on, Augusta ... He was in "The Crucible" and "Last of the Mohicans" ...  Anyway, he can look grubby if the part calls for it.  He has that thin face, too, and is tall and lanky.  Daniel Day-Lewis!  That's it. 

Sounds like a sarcastic question to me. Don't believe everything you read.

I understood you were joking, Rays.  But it gave me an opportunity to share my thoughts about why Andrew and Morse remained friends 29 (?) years after his re-marriage.

I'll tell you why: they were cut from the same cloth!!!
Didn't one book (?) say that Uncle John said Abby should get more than the usual widow's share because "she was more frugal and faithful" than Andy's first wife? Don't we know of similar cases today where the brother-in-law stays a friend after the divorce?

What are you talking about?
Where did this info come from?
Why would Morse compliment Abby over his own sister?
When did this come out?  An interview?

From one of the many books I read; maybe D Kent's book.
Do you doubt the friendship of Andy and Uncle John?
Do you doubt the story about Abby being more frugal and faithful than Lenora?
Do you doubt that brothers-in-law can remain friendly after a death or divorce? "Yes, she was a good wife and mother, but money slipped thru her fingers."

Rays, wasn't Andrew's first wife named Sarah not Lenora?

Ray, for once, I have to say, I have no idea of which you speak.
Sorry...

What Rays said Morse said about Andrew's first wife rings a bell.  Maybe it was something Hiram Harrington said in the newspaper.  Hiram was outright against Lizzie.  Morse was very friendly with Andrew, but I don't know if I recall him ever saying something that great about Abby.  Right - Morse and Andrew seem to have been cut from the same cloth.  I was reading last night in an old newspaper article written right after the murders that Andrew never belonged to any of the social clubs for men and was not known for fraternizing.  Morse may be one of the very few friends Andrew had. 

Maybe you were thinking of Andrew's sister, Lurena.  The first wife was Sarah Anthony Morse. 

I did look in Kent today for  mentions of frugality and for faithfulness and for anything about Sarah, which was probably more than you did to verify your own memory...but didn't find any of this stuff.

I did make note that Andrew was married to Sarah 18 years, but married to Abby 27 years.
Seems to me Sarah would always be esteemed as the mother of his children and Abby would be esteemed for her companionship in his later years, and the raising of his daughters.

You are probably right. Lenora was the sister (married H Harrington?).
Thank you for the correction. Errare humanum est, even w/ best intentions.

As much of a character as Morse was, and as hard as it is to swallow, Morse's alibi was ironclad by all sources I've read.  Just thought I'd share that with y'all.

(Message last edited Mar-30th-03  9:55 AM.)

We have yet to settle the question as to whether Morse *got a car* to Weybosset Street on the journey There that Thursday morning.  He says he did.  (Inquest, 101)  It is in one of his earliest  testimonies.
If he did take a car to the Emery's, I wonder if he saved enough time to murder Abby and still make it to visit his niece by 9:40 a.m.? (Arrival time sourced to Witness Statements, 29--your source may vary, see pg. 3)

(Message last edited Apr-3rd-03  4:46 AM.)

Uncle John is totally innocent of any murders, or plans to do so.
After the fact he covered up his part in arranging the meeting. IMO

The "car" is what they called the trolley or streetcars of the day.
See Mark Twain's story of "The Cannibal in the Car".

AR Brown discusses Andy's character when telling about his obituary.
"Not known to frequest the places where other men go". This could be both his reputation as a miser, and also meant he was a non-drinker and stayed out of saloons. Read Brown for his analysis.

Did you know that in the late 19th century saloons were mostly owned by the big breweries, like gas stations today? If you went to one, all you got was one brand of beer. A franchise operation too.

Another thing. If I knew Andy was a miserly SOB I would avoid him like I would today for anyone known as a grasping conniver who always tried to get the better of the people he dealt with. EG, the time he tried to shake down his own sister for water bills on the rented house!! The tenants paid for it already!!
If you ever met such a person you'd know what I mean. Sort of like some used car salesmen?

I had read that sentence you quoted, Rays, about Andrew not being social at the places other men went.  Bars, I'm sure were out for him.  Lodges and Masons and things were very much "in" at the time, and we don't hear any of that going on with him either.  His pallbearers were all business associates or relatives.  I think that summed up his life.  All business.

I agree, Augusta...& I believe that was his downfall.

BTW Ray, the majority of British pubs today are still owned by the breweries; franchises.

(Message last edited Mar-30th-03  6:40 PM.)

Rebello, pg. 134:

Julius Chambers, "Who Killed the Bordens?" Collier's Once a Week, vol.. ix, no. 22, Saturday, September 10, 1892: 11-13.
__,"Who Killed the Bordens?" A Cavalcade of Collier's, Kenneth McArdle, ed., New York: A.S. Barnes, Inc., 1959, 1-9.

"....As to old man Morse, I confess frankly that I would hate to meet him in a dark alley. He certainly has a very cruel and hardened face, and I think it would be very proper to make serious inquiry regarding his past history in that part of the far West from which he comes. I say this without any prejudice to Mr. Morse, because his alibi is apparently complete. Apropos, the early life of Mr. Borden should be inquired into. I learn that he was quite a 'sporting man' when he lived in Troy twenty-odd years ago and had a curious reputation."

--Does anyone know what this description means?
________________

--I am going to edit :  the words "Mr. Borden" should be highlighted, so as not to cause confusion.  Sorry, Susan.  I'll do that now.  (It did sound like the reference was to Mr. Morse.  I noticed that myself.)

(Message last edited Mar-31st-03  2:53 AM.)

Well, sporting can mean someone who likes to take risks as in games of chance, betting and the like.  Someone who is sporting can also be someone who is preoccupied with the pursuit of pleasure.  I have read the term before in use as sporting houses, places where men could places bets, play cards and pick up loose women. 

Could this really be our young Andrew?  Starting a business can be risky, the furniture business of Borden and Almy.  Venturing into undertaking, hmm, not so risky, not like you wouldn't have clients ever.  Andrew and gambling though?  Hmm, he did seem to like to accrue money, but, in a sure manner.  And Andrew and loose women?  Thats anyone's guess. 

(Message last edited Apr-1st-03  11:22 AM.)

A "sporting house" was a euphemism for a brothel, or so I've read. They were quite common in those days, before the local authorities were forced to crack down after women got the vote. A Congressional committee (Wickersham?) found out that many of them were housed in property owned by the rich and famous: Rockefeller, Carnegie, etc. You can maybe look it up in books (?) or the I-net.

"Sport" meant for pleasure, as opposed to "market" or business. IMO Example, sport meant hunting for personal use (food, or trophy). There used to be quite a market for wild game in certain upscale restaurants. Wild game is naturally low in fat, high in vitamins; or so I read. In Europe, and peasant would be killed if found taking game. Its called "poaching", but all game was off limit unless you were of the nobility. Have you read about Englishmen being transported to Australia because they killed a rabbit preying on their crops?

OUR ANDREW?

I thought it meant a gambler, or a risk-taker, but I am really not sure.
Anyone else have a definition?

If Andrew Jackson Borden never lived in "Troy" (an earlier name for FR?) then its obviously the wrong person. Do not mistake his later personality for his youth. Don't we all know at least one person who was wild in his youth but now attends church regularly?

Some people in the past mistakenly attacked me for saying Andy would fire people who worked for his companies so he could foreclose on their homes. I do not have proof of this, but it is in character for a man who got rich by swindling widows and orphans out of their houses by urging them to take on debt when mourning. I hope all will agree, except those who are too contrary. Read AR Brown's book on this, or others.

About 12 years ago I worked at a major corporation. One District Manager got in trouble because he had a hidden interest in an Employment firm, and favored their candidates. (Another way of saying this: he would fire contractors who were not from that firm so his own firm's could be hired.) He was forced to sell out, which tells me the higher ups were also profiting. A few years later this corporation was downsized.

Main Entry: sport·ing
Pronunciation: 'spOr-ti[ng], 'spor-
Function: adjective
Date: 1799
1 a : of, relating to, used, or suitable for sport b : marked by or calling for sportsmanship c : involving such risk as a sports contender may expect to take or encounter <a sporting chance>
2 : of or relating to dissipation and especially gambling
3 : tending to mutate freely
- sport·ing·ly  /-ti[ng]-lE/ adverb


Main Entry: sporting house
Function: noun
Date: 1894
: BORDELLO 



Main Entry: 1sport
Pronunciation: 'spOrt, 'sport
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, to divert, disport, short for disporten
Date: 15th century
intransitive senses
1 a : to amuse oneself : FROLIC <lambs sporting in the meadow> b : to engage in a sport
2 a : to mock or ridicule something b : to speak or act in jest : TRIFLE
3 [2sport] : to deviate or vary abruptly from type (as by bud variation) : MUTATE
transitive senses
1 : to display or wear usually ostentatiously : BOAST
2 [2sport] : to put forth as a sport or bud variation



Even knowing the full meaning of the word it could still
mean just about anything in regards to Andrew.





(Message last edited Apr-1st-03  2:18 PM.)

From the negative sentence it came from I would guess
"sporting" meant he was a ladies man. Hard to believe! 

Why, how could any young lady resist this handsome fellow?

(Message last edited Apr-1st-03  9:49 PM.)

I'm laughing so hard right now! He was indeed a stud.
But, where are his lips? And what is with the poofs of
hair covering his ears? Is that just sideburns?

Father, a stud?  What would have Emma and Lizzie said?

Yeah, he could use a haircut.

I always thought he looked like George Wahington in the *Andrew Young* picture.

He's a stud if he's on the DOLLA BILL!

Wasn't he from Quaker stock?
I can't see him ditching that upbringing, becoming known as a sporting man, and then still marry respectably at age 23.

Also, I was reminding myself last night:  Andrew was born not too far from the 1700's!  As in raised with values of the 18th century!




(Message last edited Apr-2nd-03  6:43 AM.)

Those dimples are kinda cute though!

Kat -- I'll let you in on a little secret - -
If I had more hair growing over my ears, instead of in them - I'd be a dead ringer for George!

That is a creepy likeness -- maybe they are related?
Almost the same eyes, nose & mouth -- very eerie.

Well, shoot,  Bill!
If you're ON a dolla bill, I love ya!  Think you're beautiful, etc...send me lot's of pictures!

Inquest, very bottom of pg. 101 & very top line of 102, Morse says he "came to the post office and got a *car*."
In the Sourcebook, pg. 8, The Fall River Herald, probably dated Aug. 5, 1892, there is embedded in the article, under the heading, Mr. Morse Talks:

" '...I started for the post office..., stopping in, and got a postal card and wrote to William Vinnicum of South Swansey.  I dropped it in the office and then went out...[etc].' "

--maybe it is a misprint in the Inquest, as it is the only place he says he got a car (seemingly to Weybosset).
All they had to do was leave off a "d" and send me scurrying in circles!
--Does this sound plausable?  [about the car(d), not about my scurrying...]

(Message last edited Apr-3rd-03  4:48 AM.)

I think you may be on to something, Kat.  Sounds plausible to me. 

I think that bit about the car/card confusion sounds very plausible. It may indeed be a misprint.  In the Preliminary Hearing, Morse says he "wrote a card" at the Post Office. (p.243)   

He is asked at trial whether he walked or drove to the Weybosset house and he answers: "I walked there". And the times he adheres to pretty closely in all his statements fit in with him walking there and taking a car back.

Both Bridget and Lizzie tell Fleet (Witness statements) that Morse left before nine.  Bridget says at the Prelim that it was a quarter to nine (p.7). Morse tells Fleet it was about 8:40 when he left. 
And Mrs. Emery says he arrived there about 9:40 a.m. (Witness Statements p.30)

Morse and Mrs. Emery both say he left the Emery's at 11:20 (Witness statements)(Morse's testimony Trial and Prelim). He says he took a car back(Witness Statements, Inquest p.104) and arrived back at the Borden house about 11:40 (Inquest p.104 and Morse at Trial).

So if we accept those times and his claim that he walked there, it took him almost an hour to get from the Borden's to Weybosset when he walked and about 20 minutes to come back home on the car. Mind you, that first hour has to include a stop at the Post Office -- but even if he spent 20 minutes writing the card,it still took him twice as long to get to Weybosset as it did to return.

Nobody challenged or questioned his statement about "taking a car back" THEN. Only those who did not look up this word's meaning do that. It shows that many here do NOT have the required background to successfully challenge recorded history.

That's one reason for AR Brown's successful book. He had enough experience to know how local govt worked (how deals are made) to question some of the Legend.

what a good point about car vs card, and more scrutinizing
of JVM, he seemed to make a very purposeful alibi for himself.
Also the time it took him there vs back...he was shrewd and
a con artist type (my opinion) and he had his tracks covered.

Superb detective work Sherlock Kat!  Sounds VERY reasonable to me.

I don't know if Morse normally spoke very loud because in the trial he was asked to speak up. (page 148)

The "d" could have been easily missed. That would certainly explain the confusion.

I guess the "d" was my own tempest in a teapot.  I noticed it and tracked it down and hopefully it is no longer a factor in our determinations.  Without a lot of support here, tho, these questions I have might never be *solved* or at least understood.
Thanks for the input, guys.

Diana, that time difference is a really good example of why I was so interested in the time a car would save Morse going TO Weybosset.  [emphasis for someone else, obviously].
Breaking it down like that was a very good indicator of the inordinent amount of time it did take Morse to GET where he was headed, compared to the small amount of time it took to arrive back.  Well done.

--Now, my own speculations:  I figure it takes me 17 minutes to walk a mile?  Does anyone know about how long it takes?  AND if Morse misrepresented the time he left, I think he could have been on site to be there when Abby was killed.  (I shoot for 9:05 a.m. to give Morse a chance at Abby)...(I think there is a video with this possibility?)

We know when Morse was at his relatives because Dr Bowen went there (msg from Lizzie). So Morse knew something went terribly wrong on his way back. (And told a story of being invited back for dinner.) He did take CAREFUL NOTE of everything on his return trip on the CAR (trolley) to provide an "alibi". See AR Brown's analysis on this.

Wondered about something when I was looking up Morse's statements. 

Medley reports his conversation with Morse about the Weybosset trip and says: "He[Morse] told Reporter Porter of the Daily Globe that the first he knew of it was when he was telephoned for". (Witness Statements, page 29)[emphasis mine]




(Message last edited Apr-4th-03  7:36 PM.)

The August 5th Evening Standard lists this about the ever mysterious Uncle John in two separate interviews:

"John W. Morse's Stories

He said that about 20 minutes after 9 o'clock in the morning he left Mr. Borden's house and walked to the City Hall, where he took a car for Weybosset street.  He arrived at No. 4 Weybosset street at 9:30 and called on a niece and nephew, who were visiting a family there named Emery.  "The first I knew of this affair," said Mr. Morse yesterday noon just after 12 o'clock, "I received a telephone message and went down town.  I arrived at Mr. Borden's house at 11:40 and walked in at the gate.  I picked up a couple of pears, and glancing in at the door, saw the uniforms of policemen.  Bridget met me and said 'Do you know what has happened?  The folks are killed.'  I went in and saw Mr. Borden's body lying on the lounge; then I went up stairs and saw Mrs. Borden's corpse."

Later in another interview:

Mr. Morse's memory in regard to his niece is somewhat defective.  He had said that he went to call on her for the first time yesterday.  He was interviewed again.
"I thought that you told me, Mr. Morse," said the interviewer, "that you never saw your niece before to-day?"
"I never did," replied Mr. Morse.
"She says," was the rejoinder, "that you met her in Warren and drove her to Swanzey."
"Ah, that is so.  I did," said Mr. Morse.  "I saw her for just a moment or so."
"And I thought you told me," resumed the interviewer, "that you first learned of this affair by a telephone message when you were in another part of the city?"
"You are mistaken," said Mr. Morse, "I said no such thing."
"But you did," persisted his questioner, "and I will take my oath on it."
"You are mistaken," Morse replied once more."

Misquoted?  Lying?  Beats me.



(Message last edited Apr-4th-03  8:19 PM.)

Marvelous.  I was hoping that "...was telephoned for..." (Freudian slip?) would come up...I have it in my notes...he said it in the Witness Statements.

That Dr Bowen story (re him going to Weybosset when Morse was there), I think I've only read it 1 place (perhaps that was Brown years ago?) & never felt Dr B would have had the time to make it up there & back during his various errands, comings & goings.

However, if that house had a telephone...how wonderfully convenient JVM should visit a place with a telephone on that particular day.

It's an interesting point that you made about Bowen not having time to go to Weybosset to *warn* Morse, if anyone thinks Morse was warned.  I like to look at maps, and I don't think he had time, either.
But Bowen does makes a point of going out immediately (seems like) to telegraph Emma, and says he stopped at home {telephone?) and at the drug store, Bakers, and spent "two or three minutes there."(telephone?)  (Inq. Bowen, 118)

(Message last edited Apr-4th-03  11:39 PM.)

Did Lizzie know that Uncle John was visiting the Emerys at the time she asked Bowen to send the telegram to Emma?

I can't recall any conversation relating that to her. She came down after he had left.

Yes, you're right-- and it is an assumption that if Lizzie was an accessory she would know Morse's schedule, and/or overheard the info.

BTW:  I wanted to mention that Sawyer, at trial, says Morse was not eating anything when he saw him come in at the side door.
[Edit here:  It was Sayer at the Inquest, 139: "Q.  Did you notice whether Mr. Morse was eating a pear or not, or eating anything?
A.  No Sir he was not when he spoke to me, at that time.]



(Message last edited Apr-5th-03  12:11 AM.)

"Oh, Dr Bowen," Lizzie said, clutching his wrist.  "Please come closer,"

"Yes my dear?" he replied, looking deeply into her hypnotic eyes before lowering his ear to her whispering lips.

"Please telephone for my uncle, Mr Morse, & ask him to come back.  The exchange is 555.  But I beg of you, please don't tell anyone..."

"Of course.  Anything for you, dear.  Don't worry; I'll take care of everything."

LOL. I like that Tina-Kate. 

If they were all in on it why couldn't Lizzie just say out loud:

"Oh Dr. Bowen, while you are out sending the telegram to Emma, please go over to the Emery's and get Uncle John."

Lizzie did speak to both Abby and Andrew that morning and she could have learned it from them. They certainly were in no condition to refute that.

There is such a reluctance on Lizzie's part to have anything to do with her uncle that it becomes very suspicious in itself.

(Message last edited Apr-5th-03  12:19 AM.)

*Because by then both Churchill and Russell were there.  And so Lizzie would have to whisper.
It has been said to me that it's possible that Dr. Bowen would do things for Lizzie to cover-up.  Whether he thought her guilty I don't know, but that he possibly would help her.
He was pretty *nervous* that day too.
Morse adnits he was *nervous* and there are reports that Bridget was also pretty *nervous*.

*[edit here:  I can promote my handy-dandy pocket coordinator!  Keeps track of the comings and goings of friends and neighbors, and the police!]:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/SequenceofEvents.htm

(Message last edited Apr-5th-03  1:11 AM.)

I don't understand why she would have to whisper.  Mrs. Churchill and Alice would have no way of knowing what Lizzie knew about the whereabouts of her uncle.

Bridget would be the only one of concern and she admits she didn't hear all of the conversations between Lizzie and her father.

Anyway, I don't think Morse was telephoned or informed by Dr. Bowen. His actions are indeed peculiar though.

Well, you really have a point.
And what I was really seeing in my mind, due to Tina-Kate's imaginative and evocative dialogue, was that Lizzie took the chance of whispering in the Doctors ear, kind of getting him *nervous* if you know what I mean.  A little attraction among the violence, not uncommon from what I hear.  Getting ready to wind him up?
BTW:  I have been spending a lot of time looking at the Sourcebook and there are several allusions to Lizzie being escorted to church by a *certain* friend, but it meant nothing.  This sounded like it happened more than once.  Might have occurred on several occasions.  The inuendo was it was Dr. Bowen.

(Message last edited Apr-5th-03  9:26 AM.)

Maybe she flashed an ankle or two!  Then how could he resist seeing her in her pink stripe wrapper.  Probably made his day.

(Message last edited Apr-5th-03  9:47 AM.)

Wouldn't that be something?!  A spicy little adultery story amidst all the murder and mayhem, that would make some story! 

I was thinking about this this morning.
Remember when Mrs. Dr. Bowen was sent for?
And she stayed just a short time.
She was sent home by Dr. Bowen, wasn't she?
She said she wasn't considered *fit* to stay.
I used to think that meant she was very upset and making a small scene.  But then I got to thinking:  This is a DOCTOR'S wife!  She might be expected to behave in a crisis.
But not in this one?
Maybe ole Bowen wanted his lunch ready when he got home...among other reason's? 

When Mrs. Bowen entered the Borden house wasn't Lizzie supposed to have said something like, who is that woman?  I can't remember where I read that, an author other than Lincoln?  But, how strange is that, why wouldn't Lizzie know Bowen's wife when she saw her?

Or, was Lizzie in denial since she was possibly having a little fling with her husband, she denies Bowen's wife's existence, no guilt. 

I think Lizzie sent for Mrs. Dr. Bowen, so I was under the impression that she knew her.
The thing about Mrs. Dr. Bowen was, and it READS sort of complicated in the testimony (see Mrs. Bowen, Prelim.)
But that what happened was when the women all moved to the dining room, Phoebe was behind Lizzie and made a shocked sound and Lizzie asked who is that?
Like who made that sound?
(I guess she didn't look for herself....)

Yes, here it is, that the two were known to each other:
Prelim.
Page 478
PHEBE BOWEN.

Q.  (Mr. Jennings)  What is your name?
A.  Phebe Bowen.
Q.  You are the wife of Dr. Bowen?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  You are a friend of Miss Lizzie and Miss Emma?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  You have known the Borden family all your life, have you?
A.  I think I have always known Emma Borden, and have known Miss Lizzie since she has lived on the street, twenty years.
.............
479
A.  She did. She rang my bell [Bridget], and said Miss Lizzie wanted me to come over.
Q.  Did you go over then?
A.  I was delayed a few seconds, and then I went over.

Thanks, Kat.  I was in a tizzy searching through my source docs, didn't get to the Prelim yet though.  So, I still don't recall where I read that originally, but, its written as though Lizzie doesn't know who Phoebe Bowen is.  Boy, talk about people taking things out of context!  For however long after I had read that, I thought that they didn't know one another!   

I'm not naming any names, but you're not the only one who had that impression.

I think Uncle John might have been gay, not that it matters but
he was single at age 60 or so and lived with the Butcher, was in Fall River to get oxen for the butcher, so he says.  He might have felt
emphathy for Lizzie...wanted to help her out...Gay men are so understanding of women's problems, they are great friends and
companions.  I can definitly see him and Lizzie scheming...........

Morse says he was told by Andrew that his niece & nephew were at the Emery's and how to get there.

Prelim.
Morse
101
Q.  Did you say where you was going?
A.  Yes Sir. He was telling the night before, up at Mr. Emery's I had a nephew and niece from the West, and he told me where they lived, and wanted me to go and see them.

Q.  Did he tell you where they lived?
A: Yes Sir, 4 Weybosset street.

Q.  Did you tell him you were going?
A.  Yes Sir. As I went out the door, he says "John, come back to dinner with us." That is the last he spoke to me.  I said I would. I came to the Post Office and got a car

--(Made "car" bold, just for the heck of it.  THAT riddle is not yet solved after all, either).
....................

Prelim.
Morse
243
Q.  How do you fix the time as about quarter to nine when you left the house?
A.  Because I thought I would give them time to get their work done up in the morning. I could not go in the afternoon.

--Now, we have heard already that Morse's niece was around 3 weeks before.  "He had taken her from the cars at Warren", whatever that means.  Was she staying then at the Emery's?  Or did she travel around the area staying with different relatives?
Why would Andrew keep track of where Morse's niece was at and tell Morse?  And if Morse saw her 3 weeks before, why did he need to see her that Thursday of all days?  Why could he not go visit in the afternoon?
Think he had other plans, like what especially? 

Just read NJ's post re a gay Morse.  I'm sorry, & perhaps this is stereotyping, but I've known many, many gay men (I'm a former theatre brat), & a gay man would definitely not have but 1 suit of clothes & wear it to rags.  Let alone show up without luggage. 

I also do not see Andrew keeping track of Morse's relatives, unless on the slim chance he happened to meet up with them.  I suppose it's possible, as they were once his extended family as well.  Just don't see Andrew as passing on any chatty "BTW, guess who's in town?"

Hmmm.  Didn't Morse state he was supposed to catch a train that afternoon?

Yes, catching a train makes sense if the story of him returning for dinner was created after the fact. Lizzie would not have sent Dr Bowen to fetch him if he was to return at noon. Or maybe not?
...
msg # 68
Obviously, Morse enjoyed the company of his niece (and her husband). To bring some joy in an otherwise humdrum existence. Isn't this still true today? Even if Morse had been married?

(Message last edited Apr-21st-03  10:53 AM.)

Morse had told Davis he might be gone overnight.
Morse says Davis said *I will give you two*, meaning HE figured Morse would be gone, sounds like, 2 days and 2 nights.
Morse implied to Mrs. Emery that when he left there he would go on to New Bedford.
Morse tells US that he told Andrew he would return for dinner.

Mrs. Emery is the one who had the impression Morse would leave town, but we don't know how she got that impression.

Ray, What niece is married and to whom?
I read what you wrote and I don't know about a husband.  Need citation please?

Also Morse denied seeing that niece previously, apparently.
He had to be ..er...reminded.

Inquest
Morse
102

Q.  When you came from New Bedford to Fall River did you have any set time to go back?
A.  Not particular, no. I told Mr. Davis I would try to get back the next day. He says you will be gone two days, I guess, I will give you that. I could have gone back the night before at six o'clock or half past.

Q.  You told Mr. Borden you would come back to dinner, when he asked you?
A.  Yes Sir.

--Morse is making it sound like he stayed over just to see the niece & nephew from the West.  Because Andrew told him about them, and also because he got back too late the day before, Wednesday.  WHY did Morse get back so late when all he says he did was just to visit Mr. Vinnicum & have supper and collect some eggs at the farm?  He wasn't prepared to do any other business at that time.

Yr right Kat.  1 of the many things I'm looking fwd to in Jeffery's account.

Yea I am too and I'm looking closely at Morse so Jeffery hurry up!

I've got questions about the "Vinnicum's".

Morse introduces himself at Inquest as John V. Morse and they have to ask him what the "V" stands for.

Then we find out this is William Vinnicum whom Morse has supper with Wednesday in Swansea. (Inq.99)

THEN we find out a "Mrs. Vinnicum" is the woman who was to go stay at the farm with Abby & Andrew that summer and they all ended up not going because she was due some company from the west.  (Prelim.248)

Rebello, pg. 122 Morse WRITES to Vinnicum:
".'..When I left the house [Friday] I started for the post office. I walked down Second Street, and, stopping in, I got a postal card and wrote to William Vinnicum of South Swansea.' Fall River Herald, Friday, August 5, 1892: 4."

--There is no Bio info on Mr. Vinnicum.  There is a bit in Hoffman.
Other than that, there is no Mr. Vinnicum in Knowlton Papers Glossarys, Victorian Vistas vol. II & III, The Evening Standard papers, the Rochester papers, the assorted papers Harry has collected, and no bio in Rebello.

In a bit confused.  Are you refering to the visitors Abby was supposed to have (reason she was going to shut up the guest room), or do you mean Mrs Vinnicum was having visitors from the west?

Hoffman!  My goodness, that seems so long ago.  I remember P D Hoffman as a poster!  I never did get that book...grrr.

We don't know anything about the visitor MAYBE Abby was expecting Monday.  If anyone can find out anything about that, it would be a big help.  (I don't know that a *visitor* existed.)

The Borden's liked to go to the farm in the summer.  Here it was the beginning of August and they hadn't gone yet.
Remember the robbery happened the year before, June 24th, and the elder Borden's were away at the farm?
Sorry about a confusion.
Here is the scoop on Mrs. Vinnicum:

PRELIM.
Morse
Page 248

Q.  From any talk that you had with Mr. and Mrs. Borden at that time did you understand there was any intention, or had been any intention on their part to go over to their farm in Swansea?
A.  Yes Sir.

Q.  What did they say about that?
A.  They said they wanted to go, providing they could get Mrs. Vinnecum to go with them. She is a lady that lives over in Swansea.

Q.  What did she have to do about it, do you know?
A.  She was expecting her sister here from the West; and if she came they could not go.

Q.  Is that what Mr. or Mrs. Borden told you?
A.  Mrs. Borden told me that.

Q.  They were waiting to hear from Mrs. Vinnecum to see whether her sister came from the West or not?
A.  Yes Sir.

Q.  Was that told you before you went over to Swansea?
A.  Yes Sir.

Was this story about staying overnight created after the murders? Yes, JVM might travel w/o a bag. His visit to relatives sounds like somthing to fill time before he caught a train. Or why Lizzie asked Dr Bowen to find him (see AR Brown's book for the details).

Evening Standard
Friday August 5, 1892  Page 4

"THE SUSPECTED MAN

John V. Morse, a Well-to-do
Western Land Owner.

He Lived in the Family of Isaac C.
Davis of South Dartmouth.

Spoken of as a Man of Excellent
Character.

....Mr. Davis greeted the Standard man kindly and furnished much material that has hitherto been unknown to the public.
John Vinecum Morse, he states, was born in Fall River, and about 30 years ago [sic] came to South Dartmouth looking for work.  He was given a job by Mr. Davis, and proving to be a steady and industrious young fellow the family soon learned to think a great deal of him.  After working for Mr. Davis a few years he packed up his clothes and went West...

...Upon being questioned, Mr. Davis said that for several weeks he had talked of purchasing a pair of cattle of Mr. Borden, and on Thursday, after shaving Mr. Davis, he (Morse) started on foot to take the electric car for the city, intending to take the train for Fall River...

...A daughter of Mr. Davis, who was present during this conversation, stated that Morse wore a light gray suit and that it was his intention of returning home last night.
Continuing, Mr. Davis said Morse was to have purchased additional cattle while away, and that he also expected to run over to Warren to see his uncle.  His purchases were to have been brought home with him."...
...
--Don't know if this answers any questions.  Sounds like Ms. Davis & her father thought Morse would get everything done, collecting cattle, visiting Borden's, and stopping to see his uncle, and come back in one day.
-Did Morse need Andrew to go with him, and because Andrew was indisposed, couldn't get anything done Wednesday, other than collecting eggs?
--Morse says he could have returned to Davis' at the 6ish train, but instead he spent 5 hours getting to Swansea and back to Borden's.  Plus he didn't even get started doing all Davis says he was to do until 12:30-ish when he first got the train into Fall River.

Thanks re Mrs V, Kat.  My "Prelimlessness" rears its head again.

Of course, this is more "according to Morse".  Can't get past my suspicion re him.

There are other references to the Borden's not being able to go to the farm that summer.
Remember the Johnston girl and the story about Lizzie having to be home if Mr. & Mrs. Borden went away?
I think it's in "The Girls At Marion"  thread.

I think the important part is that they did not go, not necessarily WHY they did not go.  It's just a feeling I have.

Aha!  Found it while doing a search for something else, why does that always work that way?

Anyway, here it is, Kat, from Mrs. Churchill's Inquest testimony is where I read that Lizzie did not know who Mrs. Bowen was, page 129:

"Mrs. Dr. Bowen came in in a few moments, and came and stood beside me. Miss Lizzie did not seem to know Mrs. Dr. Bowen, she asked who that woman is.  Miss Russell said "that is Phebe Bowen."  Bridget was in the kitchen at the time." 

Oooh Susan, that is interesting.  Confusion, shock, drugs, a bit of drama for effect...or some kind of denial of Phoebe Bowen's existence??

I mean, really...she lived across the street from her for years!

Yes I know about this.  Stef was debating me about this a long time ago.  She also read what you read.
It was a misunderstanding, at the time, as the total picture shows.
That's why I said you weren't the only one who thought that (That I knew of, anyway)

kat:

i don't understand that.  lizzie had never seen mrs. bowen?  or lizzie was referring to someone else?

(i notice we're on at the same time again.  check your email for a new topic of conversation.)

See answer, post # 64

"Kat
4333 posts Apr-6th-03  4:20 PM
   

64. "Re: Morse--A Real Character"
In response to message #63

     
I think Lizzie sent for Mrs. Dr. Bowen, so I was under the impression that she knew her.
The thing about Mrs. Dr. Bowen was, and it READS sort of complicated in the testimony (see Mrs. Bowen, Prelim.)
But that what happened was when the women all moved to the dining room, Phoebe was behind Lizzie and made a shocked sound and Lizzie asked who is that?
Like who made that sound?
(I guess she didn't look for herself....)

Yes, here it is, that the two were known to each other:
Prelim.
Page 478
PHEBE BOWEN.

Q.  (Mr. Jennings)  What is your name?
A.  Phebe Bowen.
Q.  You are the wife of Dr. Bowen?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  You are a friend of Miss Lizzie and Miss Emma?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  You have known the Borden family all your life, have you?
A.  I think I have always known Emma Borden, and have known Miss Lizzie since she has lived on the street, twenty years.
.............
479
A.  She did. She rang my bell [Bridget], and said Miss Lizzie wanted me to come over.
Q.  Did you go over then?
A.  I was delayed a few seconds, and then I went over. "
___________________________________

Prelim
Mrs. Dr. Bowen
pg. 479+
Q.  When you got over there, who did you see there?
A.  Miss Lizzie Borden, Miss Alice Russell, Mrs. Churchill, Bridget Sullivan, and I do not remember whether Mr. Sawyer was at the door when I went in. He was there when I came out.
Q.  Where was Lizzie when you first went in?
A.  She was sitting in the rocking chair in the kitchen.
Q.  Were Miss Russell and Mrs. Churchill there with her?
A.  Miss Russell was sitting in the chair beside her, on the edge of the chair, Miss Lizzie's head was leaning on Miss Russell's shoulder.
Q.  How near did you go to her?
A.  I stood directly in front of her. Miss Russell was fanning her with a newspaper.
Q.  Did she appear agitated?
A.  She had her eyes closed, and her head on Miss Russell's shoulder I thought perhaps she was faint. She did not speak at first.  Miss Russell asked me to wet the end of the towel, as she was bathing Miss Lizzie's face.
.......................
480
Q.  Did you go away before Lizzie went into the dining room?
A.  I came out just, I think, as she was going in. Miss Russell asked Lizzie if she would go into the dining room, if she would take the chair in, as she thought it was cooler in that room. Somebody asked for a fan, and Lizzie told Bridget to go into the dining room closet and get the fan. We went into the dining room. I made a sound when they told me Mrs. Borden was dead. I sat in a chair back of Lizzie, where she was sitting. Lizzie asked who this was that made the sound. They told her Mrs. Bowen.
Q.  That sort of upset you when you heard Mrs. Borden was dead?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Did you go home then?
A.  Yes, they told me I was not fit to stay.
Q.  Did you go into the house again that day?
A.  I went as far as the back door, I did not go into the house; I did not go in that day.

--The rest of the story.

thanks for the clarification.  that's the kind of thing that is easily misconstrued by people talking about something out of context.  i wouldn't be surprised if a lot of our "evidence" is marred by that sort of thing.

Yes, and when I don't post all of it, it can confuse people.
That has happened before also, and it's my fault and my judgement call.
But I have wondered if members like or dislike too much testimony.
I think some might find it boring!

Hang in there everybody!  By the time my hair is all white, I may just have transposed all The Preliminary here, eventually!

Thanks, Kat.  I for one appreciate all the info you post, I find it helpful.  You can see where my confusion came in having read that in a source document.  Who is that woman vs. Who made that noise is quite different, how Addie managed that one is beyond me unless she misheard what was asked.

Theres another one of those "theys"!!!  They told me I was not fit to stay.  Who told you that you were not fit to stay?! 

That has got me chuckling.!

I think her husband told her to go home.
You'd think a Doctor's wife would be kind of used to emergencies.  She didn't even see any bodies!

Mrs. Dr. Bowen (that sounds strange) also fainted at the trial.

She considered herself a good friend of Abby.
Maybe she was more overcome with loss than anyone else there that Thursday.
Also, maybe she was frail?
When did she die?

Rebello has remarkably little info on Phoebe Bowen (only 4 references!).

Pg. 24 Lizzie Borden, Past & Present --

"Mr Miller's daughter, Phoebe (1849-1907), married Dr Seabury Warren Bowen (1849-1918)".

Wow, Dr B outlived his wife by 11 yrs!

Thanks, Tina-Kate
So she did live 14 more years after the trial?
I wonder what had her fainting?
Do the newspapers say anything about this?

BTW:  It seems as if most men back then remarried soon after (or within a certain period of time).  Yet Bowen didn't, hmmm.

That ref. also made me realize something -- I remember hearing/reading @ least a few statements that Dr B was a Civil War doctor.  If he was born in 1849 -- that would make him too young to have been practicing medicine in the Civil War!

Whoa, whoa, whoa!!!

Rebello, Lizzie Borden, Past & Present, Page 69 --

Profile:  Dr Seabury Warren Bowen...born...July 20, 1840

--  Which one is right Mr Rebello???

I was thinking, if 1849 was correct, he was only 11 yrs older than Lizzie, & thus only 43 in 1892!!!  Methinks the Profile must be correct, & perhaps the typo was made due to Phoebe being born in 1849.

Another Cancer/Leo cusp, anyway!

OK, I did the math.  Also from the Profile -- "Dr Bowen died @ the age of 78 in Fall River, March 3, 1918.  He was buried in Oak Grove Cemetary in Fall River".  Therefore, he had just turned 52 @ the time of the murders. 

That makes more sense.  For a brief moment there, I was picturing a whole new handsome 43 yr old Dr B -- & imagination was running amok.  Had a feeling that couldn't be right...



(Message last edited Apr-27th-03  7:18 PM.)

There are a couple of wrong birthdays in Rebello, but just turn a page and a right one will surface.  I think Andrew is given 2 different dates and so is Hiram Harrington.
Adding Bowen makes 3.

Yes, Bowen seems to be one day off, Birthday-wise from Lizzie.  Wonder if they ever combined a party!
Does this mean that some of what we think we know Astrologically about Lizzie also can be applied somewhat to Dr. Bowen?
Hmmm...wonder what Phoebe Bowen died of?

Oooh Kat -- don't put these ideas into my head! 

Long, drawn out mysterious illness perhaps, cleverly disguised in ways only a Dr would know how...thru *prescription only* means?  Bowen was uniquely qualified to succeed where Lizzie may have failed...

Hmmm...exactly how rich was old Southard Miller?

 

(Message last edited Apr-28th-03  12:43 AM.)

Oh my.  I just found this in my handy-dandy notebook --

Pg 24, Witness Statements (Phil. Harrington) --

Sept. 25, 1892

Dr Bowen stopped me on the street, and was very anxious to know what Mr Knowlton meant when he referred to having found another agent of death.  He was very nervous when talking of this.  I told him I did not recollect of any such statement in his plea.



(Message last edited Apr-28th-03  1:01 AM.)

Good ole "I -don't-like-that-girl" Phil!

He does seem to manage to insinuate quite a lot into a few words, doesn't he?
I wonder what calibre of Reporter he would have made if he had chosen That profession.

Anyway, are they referring to the handle-less hatchet but Bowen wonders exactly what?

2 Harringtons (apparently unrelated) seemed to have it in for Lizzie.

Maybe Dr B wonders re the poison theory afterall (or perhaps knows more about that than we know).

Or, am I just tossing logs into the fire again, as I am wont to do?

I've never been sure of what the Doctor was capable.
Doctors and women are the poisoners.
Bowen & Lizzie are one day apart, birthdays.
I'd say, I suspend judgement on this question ...
(Not of logs, but of Bowen)

Yes, Harry, there certainly was a whole lot of fainting going on, in the Victorian days.  They characterized it as "the vapors," but you and I know it was just a euphemism for some good old fashioned swooning. A picture of the trial courtroom (see Porter) photographed in 1893 does not show the existence of a electric fans.  The practice of cooling off with air conditioning, one of the boons of present day living, is a relatively recent addition to our contemporary life style. During the summer months in Victorian summers, homes and buildings were tightly shuttered to keep the heat out - which also served to keep out the fresh air as well, and raise the incidence of fainting. All of this, coupled with the heavy clothing typical of the times, even in summer, served to guarantee there would not only be a
"hot time in the old town tonight," but an even hotter time during the daylight hours as well.

No wonder there was so much swooning! 

I was mistaken. Mrs. Dr. Bowen fainted at the Prelim not the trial.

From the Aug. 30, 1892, Evening Standard:

"The only unusual disturbance in court so far was occasioned by the fainting of the wife of Dr. Bowen.  She was taken from the room by Deputy Sheriff Wixon and Mayor Coughlin.  The news of the severe illness of her mother was the cause."

I think the heat as well had a lot to do with it.

And the Corsets!
Thanks you guys, for the extra atmosphere!


(Message last edited Apr-28th-03  3:33 PM.)

Yeah, those corsets cut the flow of blood down.  I'm sure in moments of excitement when you needed more blood to certain areas like the brain you didn't get enough in time and passed out.  That and combined with the heat and all those clothes, you would think that the "summer complaint" would be fainting spells.