1. "The Borden's Piano"
Posted by augusta on Mar-29th-03 at 8:03 PM

From the Fall River Daily Herald, August 24, 1892:  "A New York Woman Describes the House" (from Rebello's "Past & Present", page 110):

" ... I was surprised to (find) the house extremely pretty and refined in its appointments.  Easy chairs, shaded lamps, book, well-chosen bits of bric-a-brac, cushions, and draperies, an open piano and a hundred comforts and pleasing trifles tastefully disposed bespoke pleasantly the character of the occupants ..."


WHOSE house was she in???! 

That is surprising to hear!  Hundreds of "comforts" like what
I wonder? 

I wonder if this was the source used by Nancy McNelly (?) HALF-MOON to provide proof there was a piano in her floorplan of the Borden First Floor, but just not where it was located?
I don't think it's in testimonies.
Did Abby keep the parlour locked?

Like a slop jar under every bed?  That can be mighty convenient if you happen to nned one.
My paternal grandparents lived their whole lives in a house that had no electricity, plumbing, nor central heat.  (The water came from pumps that were located outside the house itself.  Incidentally, the drinking water was absolutely delicious.)  Yet they had many books, a wind-up Victrola phonograph, and a parlor organ, among other comforts.
They also ate very well.  No warmed-over mutton for them!  Having never enjoyed many of the things we take for granted, I'm sure they didn't consider themselves deprived in any way.  I'm describing their lifestyle in the late 1930s and early 40s, a long time after 1892.

It sounds to me as if this woman was trying to describe a typical home of a family that had money and taste, that the Bordens weren't a low class family.  So, for something to have happened in this home was quite shocking.  But, by our standards, the Borden's home was outdated in the 1890s. There seems to be so many things we don't see in the murder photos, pieces of furniture and things that were moved when they took the photographs.

I did notice something strange in this illustration of the sitting room.
The ceiling looks as if it is wallpapered!  Now by that time in Victorian America it was a common practice, but, in homes that had gas lighting, not kerosene.  Kerosene is a smoky, sooty fuel, it would put deposits on your ceiling that you would constantly have to scrub off.  If it was just painted white, you would give it a quick whitewash.  So, was the sitting room ceiling papered?  Ah, something new to figure out. 

I was just reading in Rebello last nite that the sofa and other furniture were heavy, well made, but like 40 years outdated.  Lizzie's bed was covered all in white.  And she had red poitieres (sp?) on the doors (?).  Maybe to make the locked doors look better.  They said she had something else on the windows, so those red heavy drapes were on the doors, according to this.

This is like the game "What's wrong with this picture?"  (Should be right up Kat's alley)

Hey!  Sounds like a good regular column for the newzletter; "Kat's Alley"

I'm sure those of us who've seen these newspaper illustrations have noticed a lot of artistic license was used.  For instance, the 1 posted looks as tho it was printed in reverse, as the text is reversed.  Check out that sofa, BTW...looks like an old car seat.  So, kind of hard to take any of these illustrations @ face value or to find any valuable clues in them.

I agree with you, Tina-Kate, that those illustrations can't be relied upon for hard facts.  But, it did make me wonder if any of the ceilings in the Borden house were papered ever?  Yeah, the sofa looks nothing like the one that Andrew was layed out on. 

Kat's Alley:



If you ever want to know the source of a photo or smilie posted here, go down to "Reply With Quote" as if you were going to answer that post with the picture.

It brings up the URL, imbedded in the post, of the site address of the picture.

Just now, I did that, copy-pasted it into my mail and sent it to myself so it would "Glow".
Then I started hacking off the end of the address until I got to a .com or whatever and then I clicked on that and went there.

Thanks for the tips guys.

Now that sofa's more like it, Susan.  Guess that must be all the cellar dust & ashes a comin' up.

We're not sure Abby dusted the sittin' room that day, are we? 

(Message last edited Mar-30th-03  11:37 PM.)

Morse said Abby was "dusting around" when they were in the sitting room after breakfast, but doesn't say if she was dusting the sitting room.
Why would a hostess do that when there's company?
Is it like a nervous habit?
Morse was gone within like 15 minutes I think of her dusting.  She could have waited.  Unless she had a pressing need to get her housework done by a specific time?
I mean what else had she to do that day?

We can decorate the Borden House, depending upon which account you believe!

More From Rebello, pg. 109+

"The Borden House"

"A Search of the Premises," Fall River Evening News, Monday, August 8, 1892: 1.

"On Saturday afternoon, 3:15 p.m., Marshal Hilliard, accompanied by several patrolmen, searched the Borden home. The search began in the attic and they worked their way down to the first floor. The search ended at 6:30 p.m.

The attic contained four rooms and an open area into which the stairway extends. The two rooms in the rear were found to be scantily furnished. One of them was occupied by the servant, Bridget Sullivan, whose personal effects were about all contained in a small trunk. The lid was quickly raised and the contents inspected. It contained only clothing and a few mementoes treasured by the owner, as might be judged by the careful manner in which they were preserved. A package of letters, a few photographs, a box, a little jewelry and other effects dear to the feminine heart were there, but nothing more. The bed was carefully inspected, the mattress shaken up and pounded, the adjoining closet searched in vain. All that met the searchers gaze were packages and boxes of heavy clothing stored for the summer, comforters for the beds and similar articles.

The search continued to the second furnished room, which contained a painted bed. The bed had the appearance of not having been used for some time. ... On the front facing Second Street, at the northern corner, is the guest chamber which was where the murder of Mrs. Borden took place and where Mr. Morse slept on the night preceding the murder. The room is large, with windows on two sides, and is handsomely papered. The windows are adorned with lace draperies. The furniture is heavy set of black walnut ...

The next room entered was Miss Lizzie's chamber, which is in the middle of the house, with windows on the south side. The walls were covered with rich, dark paper, which was relieved by handsome red portieres at the doors. The windows were draped with taste and the furniture was neatly arranged. There was a narrow bed for one person, which was covered with a spread and pillows of spotless white. Not a wrinkle was in the coverlet and it seemed, like everything else in the apartment, to reflect the precise and trim character of its occupant. Easy chairs and rockers around, a few choice engravings on the wall, a well-stocked bookcase and photographs secured in foreign travel were visible. The dressing case, commode and closet were in turn examined by the officers. Every dress Lizzie possessed, every skirt, wrapper, and piece of underclothing was rigorously scrutinized. On one of the skirts a blood stain was found. It was the only discovery in the room.

Opening out of this chamber to the south is a small room, presumably used by the sisters as a study, and it next demanded the attention of the police. There was another single bed here, presumably occupied by Miss Emma, and a desk, with easy chairs. The contents of the desk were minutely examined, and then after nearly two hours work the remainder of the floor was gone over.

The rooms occupied by Mr. and Mrs. Borden, deceased, were furnished in old-fashioned style, the bed being low and the other furniture heavy. The only other room on the floor was practically unfurnished."

--------------------
Rebello, 110

"A New York Woman Describes the House," Fall River Daily Herald, August 24, 1892: 4.

"Mrs. Percy, correspondent for the New York Herald, telegraphed her description of the interior of the Borden home."

"I went to the Borden house today. I was unable to see any member of the family. I was allowed to examine the rooms where the two murders were committed, the parlor and dining room adjoining on the lower floor, and the bed chambers of the two sisters above, next to which Mrs. Borden was found brutally done to death by an assassin. I was surprised to [find] the house extremely pretty and refined in its appointments. Easy chairs, shaded lamps, books, well-chosen bits of bric-a-brac, cushions, and draperies, an open piano, a hundred comforts and pleasing trifles tastefully disposed bespoke pleasantly the character of the occupants. The 'spare room' is the only unattractive apartment in the house, and that is not cheaply furnished, but in the heavy gloomy style of the Brussels carpet, black walnut period long passed.

There is a great square space where the blood-stained carpet under Mrs. Borden's crushed head has been cut away. The paper underneath shows the awful discoloration where it soaked through.

Lizzie Borden's room is as dainty and charming a place as any girl need ask for. The tiny bed had a pale blue embroidered counterpane, the work of the woman who occupied it. Many books and pictures were in the room, some of them evidently gathered in that foreign journey of which we have heard so much. One thing struck me forcibly. How could Lizzie Borden have come in the dainty place and remove the traces of such fearful work without marring all the delicate purity of everything with which she had contact? Why, the washstand even is in a recess veiled by a pale silken curtain. A soiled finger pushing it aside would leave a mark, and there is none. The stairway leading from the front hall is steep and winding at the top, and the wall at one side is covered with a pale gray cartridge paper. This way, up and down, which the assassin passed bears not a trace. Truly the Borden mystery holds its own as such."
.....................
Trial
Desmond
735
Q.  You understood that was Miss Lizzie's?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  You searched that bed in the same thorough manner?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And the little alcove?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  With the portiere over it?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And the book-case or desk and the closet?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Everything done?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Thoroughly?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Looked at the carpets to see if anything was under them?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Moved things just as you wished to?
A.  Yes, sir, gave it a thorough search.
Q.  Did you find a couch or lounge in that room or something like that?
A.  Yes, sir.

--------------------
Rebello
pg. 111+

The Sofa:
"At 5:35 [p.m.] the crowd outside was treated to a sensational repast, when the front door was
opened and Undertaker Winward and an assistant bore out the sofa upon which Andrew J.
Borden was lying when killed, to his wagon. It is an old-fashioned, low, hair-upholstered affair,
with a pine frame recently varnished.

Evidence of the crime was plainly seen in a large blotch of blood near the head, which was
discolored clear down to the cloth under the springs. ... The undertaker stored it in a rear room of his building, where it will stay as long as it is required as evidence."

"The sofa on which he [Andrew J. Borden] reclined was mahogany, with hair cloth covering such as was commonly manufactured for high class parlor furniture forty years ago. It was removed from the Borden home on Saturday and taken to Winward's wareroom."

Sources
Fall River Daily Globe, Friday, August 5, 1892: 8.
Boston Daily Globe, Saturday, August 6, 1892: 4.
New Bedford Evening Standard, Saturday, August 6, 1892:2
----------------------
Rebello, 112

"The Clock"

"A singular coincidence in the connection with the Borden murders is that the calendar pointed on the old fashioned clock, at the residence on Second Street, stopped on the fourth, the date of the murders and still points to that date. The other works of the clock are not impaired, but tick off the minutes and hours with usual regularity."
Fall River Evening News, August 9, 1892.
------------------------

Evening Standard
Saturday, August 13, 1892  Page 1
"..."Bryant was engaged to break open the chimneys of the Borden house in search of a concealed weapon, was sitting in the Wilbur House soon after noon, and was easily led into telling what he saw and heard and the conclusions he reached....

...."I was in every room of the house except the front entry and observed things closely all the while.  I may say that the house is furnished very plainly---notably so.  The ordinary American mechanic with an ordinary salary has his house furnished as well.  There was nothing in the house to indicate the wealth of the people who lived there."....
...................................
Trial
Morse
146+--Dining room
Q.  And, Mr. Morse, generally how was the table set, that is what kind of dishes or ware were on the table?
A.  I think it was white ware.*
Q.  What did you have to eat with,---the ordinary appliances, knives and forks and spoons?
A.  Knives and forks, yes.

*--Does "white ware" specify anything in particular?
........................
Preliminary
Dolan
197+ --Guest Room
(Mr. Adams)  At that first view was there a chair by the bureau, and between the bureau and the window?
A.  No Sir. I am glad you spoke of that chair that is lacking from the photograph. There was a kind of a camp chair, you might call it, an upholstered chair between her head and the east wall; and the feet of that were covered with blood.
Q.  What has become of that chair?
A.  It was in the house on Second street the last time I was there.
Q.  It was not taken away?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Whether there was a chair at the end of the bureau between the bureau and the window, when you saw that room the first time?
A.  I think there was a cane seated chair.
Q.  Was there any chair near it?
A.  I could not tell you.
Q.  Was this a chair with ordinary legs, or legs with a rocker?
A.  That I would not say.
Q.  You do not recollect whether it was a sewing chair, or not?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Do you remember any work basket being there?
A.  Yes Sir, immediately in front of this chair.
Q.  What was this work basket resting on?
A.  On the floor---- no, I think it was a rocking chair up against the bureau, and then the basket was sitting on the other ordinary cane seated chair, opposite.
Q.  You mean the rocking chair was up against the bureau at the end of it, between that and the window, in that space?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  The other chair was on the other side of the window in front of it, having the work basket on it?
A.  Yes Sir, and the sewing machine behind it.
Q.  Is that in the photograph?
A.  No Sir.

-Got any more?
-Do you suppose the *authors* would be helpful here?








(Message last edited Mar-31st-03  6:11 AM.)

Thanks for posting all that!  Well, heres Lincoln, don't know if this helpful or not, but, its what I have immediately at hand.

From Victoria Lincoln's A PRIVATE DISGRACE pg. 64:

     They stand in the ugly little sitting room with its noisy-flowered, worn, outdated carpet, its furnishings that reflect the taste and purse of a pre-Civil-War undertaker who has not yet prospered; nothing has been reupholstered, for horsehair holds up.  The five doors, and the clutter of non-functional tables, each with its crocheted doily, make the tiny space seem even smaller.  A meaningless mantel juts from one wall; the chimney space beneath it is bricked up and papered over, and the hole that once accommodated the pipe from a Franklin stove has a fancy cover of embossed and gilded tin with a dim landscape painted on its center.  The keys to the bedroom and "Mrs. Borden's room" lie in their usual place.

     Andrew's predestined deathbed, a sofa so short that it can accommodate only his lounging body-when he rests on it his long legs sprawl onto the floor--is still so large for its cramped setting that it must stand with one arm set flush with the door into the dining room.

Thanks so much for that! Lizzie's room sounds like
the way she liked to dress & do her hair -- very
fancy & feminine. And about the "white ware" I think
maybe they meant the white ironstone dishes that were
plain -- perhaps it was their casual-everyday dishes?


(Message last edited Mar-31st-03  9:28 PM.)

Thanks Susan!
I think that part of Lincoln is interesting.

Kimberly, *white ware* is everyday functional, you mean?  Is that like that thick old diner/restaurant stuff, d'ya think?

Edisto's Favorite Newspaper Depiction, courtsey of William



(Message last edited Apr-1st-03  8:54 AM.)

(Snicker)

Yep, that imaginary door certainly would lead to a long drop; right down into the north yard!  Talk about a door that needs a triple lock...

I accept/believe AR Brown's solution. My read is that Abby was doing this so she could listen to any talk between Uncle John and Andy. My opinion is that Abby objected to the agreement brought by Uncle John, so they schemed to get Abby out of the house that morning so Andy could meet w/ "Nemesis" (William S. Borden).

Does this remind you of that movie "Maltese Falcon" where Bridget O'Shaughnessy fusses with the settings in the parlor when questioned by Sam Spade? What is your own personal experiences?

Actually, didn't they move into that house AFTER the Civil War? Were those furnishing really out of fashion in Fall River at that time?
Remember there is a lag in style between Boston and the back woods?

Just goes to show you can't believe everything you read in the newspapers. However, it was close enough. Maybe they put a door in place of the window for copyright law. "We didn't copy that photo, because of the mistake!".

Yes -- that is the what I was thinking of -- sturdy,
almost unbreakable dishes like that. I've never heard
dishes called white wear before. I wonder what their
"good china" pattern was?

Yes, Rays, the Bordens moved into 92 Second Street in 1872, the Civil War was over in like May of 1865.  As for the furnishings being out of style, I don't know, just writing what was written in the book.  The only piece of furniture we can really see in the sitting room is the sofa that Andrew died on, can't find one like it to determine the year it was made. 

The carpet, well, I would imagine if it went in in the 1870s and the murders happened in the 1890s, thats 20 year old wall to wall carpet with no modern vacuum cleaners or shampooers to clean it.  Yuck.

I did find out that the furniture in the guestroom is in the Renaissance Revival style which is from circa 1865.

Oh, and I did find a site with White Ware on it.  Here is the link:
http://www.atlanticorient.com/lookeast/items/gbh01.html

And their version of Victorian White Ware.  I wonder if it was close to what the Bordens had?

That must be them, Susan.  You've got the coffee, the cookies & the newspaper (open to the business section). 

Oh yes!  I DID have one cup of coffee and a cookie that day.  And I read a magazine.  And that's my Waterman pen, made in Paris you know, and so THATS where I left my pince-nez!  I was hoping I hadn't dropped them in the guest room a la Loepold and Loeb!
I was really looking at the Help Wanted Section, asI knew by the week's end I would need a new *Maggie*.

(Message last edited Apr-2nd-03  12:58 AM.)

  Okay, so now I can picture Lizzie having her one cup of coffee with one of those heavy looking cups.  I can't remember where I read it, but, didn't Bridget say something about presetting the dining room table?  From the sounds of it, the dishes were washed and placed right back on the table. 

I think that what he probably meant by "white ware" was simply white colored dishes. The question had been posed as such:"what kind of dishes or ware were on the table". In response, he might have said  there had been white ware on the table because he had been asked what kind of ware was on the table. I hope you understand what I mean!

By the way, I'm new to the site, I just discovered it. I became interested in Lizzie Borden after being cast as her in a school play recently. The play is called "Blood Relations". It's a fairly well known Canadian drama. If any of you live near Toronto, you should come to see it!
P.S. my name really is Emma, I didn't just pick it as my screen name 'cause it's the name of Lizzie's sister...

Migawd!  High school plays certainly aren't what they used to be.  When I was in high school back in the Dear Dead Days Beyond Recall, the high school play was "Our Hearts Were Young and Gay" (and "Gay" didn't mean "gay").

Welcome to the board.  Isn't the website awesome?

Emma as Lizzie...must make for confusing rehearsals.

I live in Toronto, downtown west.  Where & when is it playing?  I've never seen a production of the play & would love to go.

Welcome Emma, good luck in your play. I agree, the dishes probably
weren't any special designer "whiteware", just white dishes and
cups. Andrew probably picked them up from a restaurant going out
of business or something! 
You are too funny Edisto, my high school play was "Harvey", probably
noone remembers that one either!

If you think Emma as Lizzie is confusing you should have
been there to see my 5th grade class production of The
Underground Railroad -- I played the lead - Harriet Tubman,
I wore my grandma's calico housedress & a headscarf & my
make-up consisted of the black stuff football players wear
under their eyes mixed with Vaseline.

Prelim.
Bridget
23
Q.  Wherebouts did you say she put the ironing board?
A.  On the dining room table.
Q.  Was the table in the middle of the room?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Was it set with dishes?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  You kept it set all the time?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q. You did not clear it away, and put on a red cloth, or something, but kept it set all the time?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Did she lay the ironing board right on the table, or from the table to somethingelse?
A.  Right on the table.
Q.  Which part of the table was that, do you remember now, near the kitchen door, or what?
A.  I should say on the corner of the table. She left it on the dining room table.
Q.  Which corner of the table?
A.  As she came from the kitchen door in, the same side.
Q.  Nearest to the kitchen?
A.  Yes Sir.

--Lizzie didn't put that ironing board away.  She's ironing on an already set table.  I suppose she had insider info that they wouldn't be eating anymore that day.  She also enters the dining room and puts down her hat.  I had always pictured this as being also on the table...but after review, she doesn't specify where she put it exactly.
Someone would have to eventually put those dishes away to make the table ready for another type of occupant.

Thanks for finding that, Kat.  I remember thinking, Ew, when I had read that,the dining room table always set with dishes.  But, it did finally occur to me, that breakfast, lunch and dinner that table and plates were in use.  So, with the exception of overnight, those plates didn't sit very long.

I wonder how that table was ever used again by the remaining family, because that was no roast that was carved-up on the table that day! 

I agree Susan, pretty gross.  Right up there with JVM spending the night of Aug 4 sleeping next to the gore on the floor.

I wonder if Bridget got into the habit of keeping the table always set due to the fact Emma & Liz were not always eating with Andrew & Abby.  Easier just to leave the table set than to have to keep setting up for meals whenever the fancy happened to strike "the girls".

Could everyone give us their source(s) for the info that the elder Bordens were autopsied on the dining-room table?  (I have a couple of sources, but not what I would consider authoritative.)  Thanks!

Inquest, Alice, 155, the bodies were put in the dining room.
I don't claim they were autopsied there, only stored for now, during my post.
If they weren't on the table, I didn't think there would be much room for undertaker slabs and the table.
As I recall, though, I do think one once posted the testimony that Andrew was autopsied in the sitting room and Abby in the dining room, but I don't recall that was necessarilly on the Table, but on *undertaker boards*?
Will look further if the *autopsy posters* can't find a reference.

Boy, that was easy...1st thing to pop up:

Rebello, page 99 -- Autopsies of the Bordens  --

The bodies were first examined at 3:30 p.m. on August 4, 1892.  Mrs Borden's body was in the dining room.  Mr Borden's body was in the sitting room.  Both bodies were placed on undertaker's boards.

Rebello quotes his sources:  Trial, 885, 887, 920 and The Fall River News, August 26, 1892.

You may have a good point Edisto; not sure if I've ever read re the bodies on the dining room table in anything other than author's interpretations.

The old tradition was that bodies would be buried as soon as possible. Some religions say before next sundown(?). It is a modern habit (embalming) to present the dead as some sort of tropies (for the common people). Popes and Kings were often embalmed and displayed in state. "If you've got it, flaunt it?"

"Gay" meant "high-spirited" or "high-strung". So you know where this euphemism came from. Still applied to the behavior of show dogs.

That is very interesting, Edisto.  In her inquest and her trial testimony Alice indicates that both bodies were in the dining room at some point. But word searching the trial for 'autopsy', 'body', or 'dining room', I can't find a reference to the examination of Abby on the DR table. 

Dolan testifies at trial re: the initial autopsy at the house:

Q.  What did you do then, Doctor?
A.  I then opened the body of Mr. Borden.

Q.  Mr. Borden?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  While lying on the sofa?
A.  No, sir.

Q.  What did you do with the body first?
A.  Undressed it and laid it on the undertaker's board.

Q.  In the same room?
A.  Yes, sir.

I assume the "same room" refers to the sitting room.  And then a few sentences later -- he talks about examining Mrs. Borden, removing the stomach, etc.  But doesn't say where that was done. 

The trial page references Tina-Kate found in Rebello (885,887,920) are part of Dolan's testimony, and are about the autopsy, but they don't mention the dining room at all. So at this point, I just see Alice's testimony. And as Kat said, perhaps that only tells us that the bodies may have been stored in the dining room at some period -- maybe they were placed in that room after the examinations.

(For anyone who read this previous to my edit -- and wondered how I suddenly seem to be able to access those page numbers I was having trouble with-- Harry kindly set me on the right track.)




(Message last edited Apr-3rd-03  7:13 PM.)

Gee you guys have been working away at this!  Good for you'all!

I looked a lot myself tonight.  I know somewhere it says Abby was autopsied in the dining room, someone convinced me of that a while ago.

Here is James Winwood at the Preliminary, 388.  Apparently the bodies were on boards.  The table is not mentioned.  The dining table was moved out of the way?  Or leaned on it's side and pushed against a wall?  I'm trying to find room here, for bodies, people and table.   But they probably weren't on the table at all, as Edisto suggests they weren't.  (But I bet someone had to unset that table, anyway...)
A.  The only time I saw him [Dolan], I went in with him on Friday night.
Q.  Went in with him where?
A.  Into the room where the bodies were.
Q.  Were they then in the caskets?
A.  No. They were on boards; they were not prepared then.
Q.  Was anything said about burying them then?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  He did not notify you not to bury them?
A.  No Sir.

--look for future edits!


(Message last edited Apr-4th-03  1:30 AM.)

Trial
Dolan
941 ---[We are still furnishing this house...]
Q.  There were chairs?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  A mirror?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  A table?
A.  There were two tables, one against the south wall between the two windows, and a small centre table pretty near the sofa, about the centre of the room.
Q.  How far from the sofa?
A.  I could not tell you, sir.
Q.  Point out some distance in the room which represents the distance from the small table to the sofa?
A.  Relative to the sofa, not as far as that table (pointing to table near by) from the rail.
Q.  Which rail?
A.  This rail, to this table.
Q.  From the rail in front of the jury to the rail inside the bar?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  It was near the sofa as that?
A.  Yes, sir, I think so.
Q.  Was it that little three legged table?
A.  I would not say that.
Q.  Is that in the picture I show you like the table you saw?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Did it have something on it?
A.  Books.
Q.  Did you examine those at the time?
A.  No, sir.
Q.  Did you subsequently examine them?
A.  I don't think I did.
Q.  At all events, you saw no spots on the books or on that table which stood substantially near the front edge of that sofa?
A.  No, sir, I did not.

Rebello is one of the sources i found, and he's good at citing his own sources, but I couldn't find that he said either Borden was autopsied on the dining table.  The most vivid account I've found is this:

  "It was brutal mid-afternoon when the bodies were at last
   brought into the dining room, laid out upon the table,
   stripped and washed.  Dr. Dolan, assisted by Dr. Bowen
   and five other physicians performed the post mortem...
   Townspeople jockeyed for a view through the wide-open
   windows...while countless flies, attracted by the blood,
   filled the stifling air within the house."

Sounds good, doesn't it?  Unfortunately, the source is Rick Geary's
comic book, "The Borden Tragedy."  Unless Rick himself was a fly upon the wall that day, I'm taking his account with a grain of salt.  He also has Abby and Andrew laid out on the table through the night:

  "Andrew and Abby Borden remained upon the table from which they
   had consumed breakfast that very morning!"

I think this may point out how ingrained misinformation can become.  I'm always impressed by and likely to remember anything that has a graphic illustration, which this comic book certainly does.  It was also one of the first books I read about the Borden case.
  

I don't have time to do a search right now, but, when were the bodies taken from the house?  On Friday?  If so, they had to have spent the night somewhere in the Borden home, but where?  My vote would be for the parlor, no one had to be in there like the other rooms in the house and it could be shut off.  I would think that Lizzie, Emma, Bridget and Alice would shun the sitting room and use the dining room to get to the kitchen, but, not if the bodies were still there.  Hmmmm. 

Yes, Susan, my vote would have been for the parlor, too.  Didn't people used to talk about the deceased being 'laid out in the parlor'?  But Alice, when questioned about her Thursday night trip down to the cellar with Lizzie, says otherwise:

Q.  How did you get down stairs that time, do you remember?
A.  Yes, we came through the sitting room then, because the bodies had been put into the dining room. (Inquest p.155)

Perhaps the obvious point is that two bodies were too much for one parlor?

>Welcome to the board.  Isn't the website awesome?
>
>Emma as Lizzie...must make for confusing rehearsals.
>
>I live in Toronto, downtown west.  Where & when is it
>playing?  I've never seen a production of the play &
>would love to go.

Yes, it certainly does! It's playing at Rosedale Heights School of the Arts, just across the Bloor viaduct going West (at Castle Frank subway station). The dates are May 22nd and 23rd at 7pm. I encourage anyone who is able to come! (And not just because I'm in it! tee hee hee). It really is quite an interesting and well written play, I recommend you all read it (or come to see it!).

Thanks njwolfe! And I love the play "Harvey". Have you seen the movie with Jimmy Stewart? It's worth watching, it's hilarious!

I love "Harvey" too.  (That has a double meaning, since my Dad's name was Harvey.  We used to kid him about that wabbit.)  "Harvey" was the first Broadway play I ever saw.  I saw the touring company, however.  Joe E. Brown (remember him in "Some Like It Hot"?) was Elwood P. Dowd, and he was totally wonderful.  Nobody could be more pixilated than he was!

Yes Emma I loved the movie with Jimmy Stewart too, glad you
and Edisto know Harvey,  I bet it was great on broadway.
Sorry to sidetrack from this thread which is interesting, I
just can't imagine they would put the bodies on the dining room
table, does anyone know what the "undertaker boards" might look
like, if they are like the old army cots they would have legs
to be set up on the floor. 

In the picture of Andrew's autopsy, he might be lying on an undretaker's board, I'll take another look, but you might be able to see what it looks like from that picture. He's in the sitting room in that photo, not the dining room.

Looking at the photo again, it looks like he's lying on something caned (sp?). It could be that he's lying across some chairs with his head on a caned chair, or the undertaker's board could have been caned. I hope you know what I mean by caned...

yes caned is good spelling (being a scrabble nerd)
meaning something woven from cane, which makes sense for
the fashion of the Undertaker Board in that time.  But was
it on the table?  Did it have legs?  I couldn't tell from the
picture.

Thanks, Emma.  Nice weather we're having here lately, eh?

I'll mark down those dates & promise to make an effort.  I'd love to see it & don't think I'll make it to the Shaw Festival.

BTW, that's a coincidence (for me) where the play is...I wrote a book that's set in Victorian Rosedale.

It's also in the Legend movie, 1975...where the Borden bodies are laid out on the dining room table.
But Geary (1997) doesn't give that as a reference.  Since he draws in single *frames* I would think a movie would affect him, visually, also.
I looked to see, in his Bibliography, what sources he used.  The ones listed that are prior to 1975 (the year of the film) are The Girl In The House Of Hate, Samuels, 1953, and A Private Disgrace, Lincoln, 1967.
If Susan thought the bodies were autopsied on the dining room table then it might have come from Lincoln..
131:
"That night, Alice heard Lizzie going downstairs alone; going quietly, as if she did not want to disturb Emma's rest. The bodies, sheeted, now lay in the dining room. Alice joined Lizzie quickly and carried the lamp for her, since Lizzie was carrying the slop pail. " 
[edit here:  Come to think of it, our Susan Interviewed Rick Geary for the Museum/Library, and was familiar with his work before doing so.  Maybe that was her souce, after all?]

I had seen in my mind's eye those bodies in the dining room, because of Alice's statement that they were shut up in there.  But I did see them laid out on the table awaiting the undertaker, as I really didn't think there was much extra room, and also probably from that film.  (Even tho I had read a while ago they were on *undertakers boards*.)  Yes, the visual does stick in the memory.


(Message last edited Apr-5th-03  5:06 AM.)

The bodies were taken from the house Saturday for the funeral, I believe, as the service of memorial was in the house prior to the trip to the cementary.  They were still there Friday night according to Winwood/Winward.

It's an Irish tradition to have a family table specifically for the purpose of laying out the dead.  & they often waited several days before having the traditional "wake" (literally a symbolic resurrection ritual, methinks it comes from Celtic times). 

Wouldn't like to think they did this on the Borden dining table, however...

I believe I also read somewhere the Bordens were kept in the parlour.

Inquest
Alice
155
A.  Yes, we came through the sitting room then, because the bodies had been put into the dining room.

Q.  The bodies had been moved then?
A.  Yes Sir.
.......................

Trial
Mrs. Holmes
Page 1505

Q.  Before the funeral began did Miss Lizzie go down to see her father's remains?...


...A.  She did.

Q.  Where were they?
A.  In the sitting room.

Q.  Were they in the casket?
A.  They were.

Q.  Prepared for burial?
A.  They were.

Q.  Both bodies in the same room?
A.  They were.

--The bodies had been stored in the dining room.  The service of memorial took place amongst the caskets in the sitting room Saturday morning.  The parlour has not been mentioned, re: the bodies..

--As far as I can determine, the Mayor et al. met with Lizzie et.al. in the Parlour Saturday night. (Trial, Coughlin, 1162)

--Alice met with Hanscomb in the parlour, Monday. (Trial, Emma, 1545)

Thank you Kat!  That's right, when you think about all the receiving they did in the parlour.

Interesting, because I always thought the tradition when a family member died was to have them rest in the parlour (hence "Funeral Parlour"?) as it was generally the best "pubic room" in the house.

For some reason, Andrew & Abby got the dining room...does this sound like they got "2nd best" treatment?  "Oh my...we simply can't put those icky corpses in the parlour!  We must keep the good room open for callers."

Hmmm.

Regardless, I hope they ate in the kitchen...

I'm sorry, I should probably go back and edit my post as I know the bodies weren't autopsied on the dining room table. But, laid out there for the night trussed up like turkeys?  Thats something I've always just believed was so.  I do have the picture in my head from The Legend Of Lizzie Borden movie and possibly something from Lincoln and Alice's testimony.  Perhaps they were in the dining room on those undertaker boards still, but, where would they put the dining room table and chairs and such?  Not much room in there from the looks of it. 

Yes I agree wholeheartedly about the amount of room in the D.R..  And they would seemingly have to move the table out of the way.  And yes the movie had me seeing them waiting ON the table and so does the Geary book.

About the parlour:  I think maybe it wasn't big enough for the memorial, and the dining room was probably used as *storage* because they were not ready or fixed up until Friday night  (Which seems to me a long time.)  I wouldn't want bloody bodies in my parlour, but if they had been cleaned and fixed and dressed prior, seems they could go in there.  But because of the delay, I can see why they would stay in the dining room--as well as the *fixing up* to be done..done in there.  It would also be the coolest room with windows only on the north side.  The Parlour had a west window as well as a north one,

Other than that, those girls put that parlour into use almost immediately, didn't they?  The Parlour which was now theirs?  The Parlour they rarely used?....

They appeared to have been "waked" in the sitting room. ("Waked", what an odd choice of a word for a ceremony of the dead.)

Per Spiering, p62:

"Later that morning a funeral service was held for Andrew and Abby.
In the first-floor sitting room where Andrew had been butchered, two black caskets were placed side by side. The lid on Andrew's casket was shut but Abby's was half-open so that her face and upper body could be viewed by guests. There were no flowers. On Andrew's casket was placed a sheaf of wheat, on Abby's an olive branch."

Per Lincoln, p149 (paperback):

"The coffins were placed end to end in the dining room. They were of unfinished wood, masked in black cloth. On Andrew's body lay a wreath of ivy, on Abby's a bouquet of white roses and ferns. Winward had been wisely chosen. Only the back of Mrs. Borden's skull had been shattered, and Andrew had one check cuddled into the pillow when he died. Now, turned good side up, Andrew appeared only to repose in a deeper sleep, and the press reported that both looked "wonderfully peaceful."

There is a footnote in Lincoln however:  "(1) Providence Journal; a witness, ten months later said, "The sitting room."

Per Kent, p41:

"In the sitting room, the coffins were displayed side by side. Lizzie, accompanied by Adelaide Churchill, had earlier come down from her room. She stood beside Andrew's bier for a silent minute, wept, and kissed him on the lips.
An ivy wreath was atop his now closed coffin, and a bouquet of white roses tied with a white satin ribbon adorned Abby's. Scriptures were read and hymns sung, but no eulogy was spoken."

Finally per Porter, p31:

"The bodies were laid in two black cloth-covered caskets in the sitting room, where Mr. Borden was killed. An ivy wreath was placed on Mr. Borden's bier and a boquet [sic] of white roses and fern leaves, tied with a white satin ribbon, was placed over Mrs. Borden."

From all this I have to assume they were laid out in the sitting room. However I am always reminded of a paragraph in a 1996 LBQ article by Howard Brody which in part said: "...that often the best way to become misinformed about the Borden case is to read a book about it."

(Message last edited Apr-6th-03  12:12 AM.)

Great comparative research, Harry!

Kat, the parlour & sitting room are pretty comparable in size, so it was more likely the issue of being cooler in the dining room & the convenience of "storage".  They were in a room that could be avoided & it was probably fairly easy to just shift them to the sitting room once they were boxed.  (Wow, doesn't that all sound so cold?!)

I like yr last paragraph.  Reminded me too how immediately the 2nd floor also got unlocked between the 2 bedrooms that effectively had divided the house.  New brooms sweep clean.

When I compared the rooms on the Rebello floorplan, it does seem as though the parlour is approximately the size as the sitting room.  I forget that the kitchen intrudes into the space of the sitting room, so it is not the size of the dining room.  You have been there, lucky girl!  You can have a visual memory.

The sitting room, tho, does have easier ingress and egress for visitors.  The parlour might have been more of a jam with the persons attending and comparing the situations of the doors.

The "Partial Autopsy" Found, by Harry, in his rendition of the Evening Standard Articles!  (Kool!)

August 26, 1892, pg.2:
The "Partial" Report.

  "Copy of the findings of the inquest as presented to presiding Judge Blaisdell :
  Bristol ss., to J. C. Blaisdell, Justice of the Second District Court of the County of Bristol.
  In conformity with section 9 of chapter 200 of the acts of the year 1877, I return herewith a copy of my record of an autopsy of the body of Mrs. Andrew J. Borden aged 67 years, found lying in Fall River and supposed to have come to death by violence.  The said autopsy was made by authority of Mayor Coughlin at 3 o'clock in the afternoon of Thursday, the fourth day of August, A. D., 1892, in the presence of W. T. Learned, residing at Fall River, and J. Q. A. Tourellot, residing at Fall River, who were required by me to attend the same as witnesses thereof, viz: The body was found lying upon Second street.  Before proceeding with the autopsy I called the attention of the witnesses summoned by me to the appearance and position of the body, and caused them carefully to observe the same.  The autopsy then proceeded as follows: On the left side of the head over the ear was a wound two and a half inches long by one and a quarter wide.  On the right side of her head was a number of cuts penetrating the brain and so intermingled as to be practically impossible to count, and I further declare it to be my opinion that the said  Mrs. A. J. Borden came to her death from shock, the result of blows from an axe or a large hatchet.
Dated at Fall River, in the county of Bristol, this 8th day of August, A. D., 1892.
  W. A. Dolan, Medical Examiner.
The other autopsy was in the presence of the witnesses, and was on the body of Andrew J. Borden.  It states: "The autopsy then proceeded as follows: The left side of the face and head was cut and smashed in by no less than 12 distinct blows of an axe or large hatchet."  In other respects it does not differ from the above copy of the report of the autopsy on Mrs. Borden. "
______________________________________




(Message last edited Apr-6th-03  3:23 AM.)

"The body was found lying upon Second street."



Guess yr right Kat...that body sure WAS moved! 

You are so funny! 

They shooda stood em up in that old piano and buried that!  Lizzie didn't play anymore.

Was beginning to think she got pushed out of that imaginary door, took the "big drop", & was rolled into the street without anyone seeing it happen.

I just spent a long time pouring over a reprint 1901-1902 Fall/Winter Catalogue...& found myself checking out the hatchets & kitchen cleavers.  Decided kitchen cleavers were probably too flimsy to shatter skulls.

(Need to keep yr sense of humor thru this stuff!!!)

Sounds like they went for the really cheap caskets.  Andrew would have approved!

I just recently read something about "gilded metal". They use a copper alloy that appears golden on some objects.
This could explain the shred of metallic gilt in Abby's skull.

For what it is worth, this appeared in "Murder Casebook #28: The Borden Murder"

"Within three and a half hours of Andrew Borden's murder, autopsies had been performed on the corpses of both victims on the dining room table of 92 Second Street.  The stomachs were put into containers and sent off for analysis, to establish the time difference in the deaths by comparing the extent of the digestion of the meal they had both shared earlier that day."
........
That night the corpses remained in the house, under sheets on the dining room table."

We know that Andrew's autopsy was performed in the sitting room so that part is obviously incorrect. They do not cite any sources for the above description.

Yes, like so many other human endeavors, the skill in reports is based on the skill of the reporter. Or why 2 heads are better than 1.

It seems that the general concensus is that the bodies were stored in the dining room and on the table.  Wish we could get the source for that shred of info!

All this just made me wonder, nothing as far as I know was ever written about it, but, how did the doctors get Abby downstairs?  How many men did it take to carry her down?  Maybe they threw her out that imaginery door in the guest room and just carried her into the house then?   

As in "Hand Me That Piano"?
--early George Carlin.

The book I'm reading is based somewhat on the murders at SmuttyNose and they speak of putting the corpses on BOARDS AND putting those On The Table.

We know the Borden bodies were *stored* on undertaker's boards in the dining room.
Possibly those were then put on the table?

I wonder if they got rid of the table right after that?

I hope they didn't keep it until the move to Maplecroft.  Yuck!

I can see Morse eating at it though. Pass the mutton please!

Removed from here one rather tasteless fake photo.

Sorry to my fellows who *responded8*.

Momentarily lost it due to pressures above & beyond the call of duty.

Though I thought it was kinda funny.

An explanation will probably be found in the Privy, later.

Gator.--Kat

(Message last edited Apr-7th-03  3:43 AM.)

Removed by Harry in response to previous message.

(Message last edited Apr-7th-03  7:56 AM.)

ROFL.

Just when you thought you'd seen everything...

I think I remember the tour guide at the B & B saying that the autopsies were done on the dining room table.  But, as we know, at least Andrew's was done in the sitting room.

Rebello relied on Rick Geary's comic book as a source???  Say not so!

The caskets were both closed for the funeral.  I doubt that reporters were even in the house that morning.  The funeral was by invitation only I believe. 

(Message last edited Apr-7th-03  10:00 AM.)

Now I'd like to see the tasteless photo!  Could you email it to me?  I'm so curious now! 

Of course.

I've just read a very detailed description of how the elder Bordens were laid out in their OPEN coffins, so that the damaged parts of the head weren't visible.  It was apparently easy with Abby, because most of her injuries weren't on the front of her head.  The contusions from the fall could probably have been hidden with makeup.  It was trickier with Andrew.  The description says his head was turned so that the pillow in the casket concealed its damaged left side. I'll try to find that exact reference and edit to include it.

Meanwhile, this is from Porter (page 31 of the "replica" edition):
  "The bodies of the victims were laid in the caskets with the
   mutilated portions of the head turned down, so that the cuts
   could not be noticed.  The caskets were open and the faces of
   both looked wonderfully peaceful."

So it appears that at least some sources say the caskets were open.
I've also read somewhere that they were closed before the actual service was held.

(Message last edited Apr-9th-03  10:58 AM.)

I just spoke to an old friend of mine from Arizona who works as a mortician.  She says, and I quote, unless someone is horribly disfigured by an accident or such, the general rule of thumb is an open casket.  Especially at the wake which is where people get to say their last good-byes to the person in person, so to speak.  I explained the situation to her and she said that Andrew would have been in question, but, that it was up to the wishes of the family at that point whether they wanted a viewing or not.  With the bad side of his head turned down and with some mortician's wax for his partially severed nose, he could have been made presentable.  Abby would have been no problem arranging her for a viewing.

My own limited experience at funeral services have been similar.  Body on view for the wake, usually 2 days.  Body on view for the funeral service until they pointedly close the casket up to ready for burial. 

With the poor Bordens it seems the papers can't decide whether their caskets are opened or closed and what was on top of them.  Personally, I think they were open.  Why else would Lizzie go through the trouble of getting Winward or Winwood the undertaker to prepare the bodies if they were just going to be closed caskets?





(Message last edited Apr-10th-03  8:58 PM.)

That was a good post and a good effort at finding out particulars on this subject:  Ask An Expert!  Brava!
BTW:  Do you know there is no picture showing, and I'm a bit hesitant to point it out, not knowing WHAT you'll come up with!
Nobody else would tell you, you notice....?
Should I close my eyes?

Yes, the piece I read (which I still cannot find -- drat!) said that the money spent for the "society" undertaker was well worthwhile, because he did such a good job of making the corpses presentable.  However, I have known plenty of people who were embalmed and probably had their hair and makeup done but still weren't put on display.  The late Princess Diana is, I think, an example.  I understand only a few family members saw her laid out, but she was still given the full treatment.

i can't locate the source now -- but i read that someone testified that lizzie kissed her father in his coffin. 

It's probably Mrs. Brigham or Mrs. Holmes, at the trial?
I remember something about that but I didn't look.

(Message last edited Apr-9th-03  11:25 PM.)

it was supposed to mean that lizzie loved her father.

they had embalming during the civil war, so i'm sure they could fix them up pretty good.  they probably looked better than they had looked in recent life.  one of the ironies of death, i guess.

Its funny, but, at times I forget what some of the people I've met throughout life do for a living.  A bell finally went off in my head, and I thought, duh, I can ask Stacie.  She has quite a few stories involved with the business, some are horror stories.  Really quite interesting what they do.

The picture is of a skeleton sitting up in a casket, is it still not showing?  I can see it on my computer.  How strange. 

Nope it's not there.

In answer to the kiss to her father by Lizzie at the casket  :

Trial
Mrs. Holmes
Page 1505

Q.  Before the funeral began did Miss Lizzie go down to see her father's remains?

MR. KNOWLTON. Wait a minute. I pray your Honors' judgment.

MASON, C. J. Assuming the question to be preliminary only, it may be answered.

A.  She did.

Q.  Where were they?
A.  In the sitting room.

Q.  Were they in the casket?
A.  They were.

Q.  Prepared for burial?
A.  They were.

Q.  Both bodies in the same room?
A.  They were.

Q.  What did Miss Lizzie do after she went down into the room?

MR. KNOWLTON. Pray your Honors' judgment

(Question excluded)

Q.  Now, Mrs. Holmes, just pay attention to the question which I ask you, and do not attempt to answer anything else except that particular question. At this time when she was viewing her father, did she shed tears?
A.  She did.

MR. ROBINSON. Your Honors, the stenographer will write out our offer.

Y'all don't look at this site if you are easily offended.
But: http://poetry.rotten.com/mortician/ I assume the
pics are untouched.

I'm not ususally offended, but, I wasn't even sure if that first picture were human remains I was looking at, yuck!  That site is exactly as it name states, rotten. 

So did Lizzie kiss her father's coldcoldlips, or did she merely cry?

Found a reference to it!  Trial Volume 2, page 1511/i533:

   The following is the offer of proof made by the defense in connection with the evidence of Mrs. Holmes:

   "The government in its direct case having shown conduct of defendant up to and including the morning of Sunday following  the murder, the defendant offers to show by a witness that on Saturday morning after the murder she came down stairs into the room where her father's body was lying prepared for burial, and went to the casket with the witness and kissed her father."


Oh, BTW, Congratulations, Edisto, on your 1008th post! 

That's great, thanks!  Other's were on the job as well.
That very well might be the "(QUESTION EXCLUDED)" from the trial page1505, post #89 !

You're welcome.  I recall reading one of the authors, probably Lincoln, who mentioned that Lizzie leaned over to Jennings and wanted that point made in court; that she had kissed her dead father.  I figured it had to be in the trial transcripts somewhere if it actually happened.

It would be a rather pushy demonstration that Lizzie loved her father, but, I guess when you are on trial for your life you can't afford to be subtle.