1. "What Lizzie Heard"
Posted by haulover on Jan-5th-03 at 8:43 PM

in a recent post is speculated about what lizzie might have heard before coming in the house.  i know i have seen this discussed extensively in some of the books -- she is said to have said to someone she heard a "groan", a "distressing sound", and a "scraping sound." 

someone wanted to know where that was in the records.  and i discover that's a good question.  i had thought i'd seen all that in the witness statements, but i can't find it.  i could have sworm but i can't find it.  i can only find where she's says several times that she heard nothing. 

one for sure is the book by radin in the chapter called, "The Discovery."  he doesn't reference it.  but i'm sure i've seen it frequently enough or i wouldn't have taken it for granted that it was in the records that someone heard her say it.

It's mentioned by Moody in his opening statement at the trial.

Page 73:

"Mrs. Churchill came there by accident, and she will testify in detail as to what occurred after she came there. She too said, "Lizzie, where were you?" "I was out in the barn. I was going for a piece of iron when I heard a distress noise, came in and found the door open, and found my father dead."

Then on page 74:

"...she told Officer Mullaly that she went out into the barn, and upon being asked whether she heard anything or not, she said she heard a peculiar noise, something like a scraping noise, and came in and found the door open...

Officer Doherty testified at the trial (page 595):

"Q.  Will you be kind enough to state what it was?
A.  Yes, sir. I said, "Miss Borden, where were you when this was done?" She said, "It must have been done while I was in the barn."  "Was there a Portuguese working for your father over the river?"  She said, "No, sir, Mr. Johnson and Mr. Eddy worked for my father."  "Were they here this morning?"  "No, sir, Mr. Eddy is sick. They would not hurt my father anyhow." I asked her if she had heard any noise or outcries, or screams and she said, "No, sir. I heard a peculiar noise."  "What kind of a noise, Miss Borden?"  "I think it was something like scraping, scraping noise."

Q.  Did you have any further talk with her?
A.  I don't think I did."

I don't know whether Moody meant to say Doherty instead of Mullaly. Didn't check that far.

thanks for the quick reply.

there's one more about the groan.  radin has in his text that lizzie said to bridget that she heard a groan and came in.

however, it's interesting that i can't find it in the witnesss statements.  nor can i find it in the testimonies of mrs churchill or bridget.

so what does moody have that he is referring to?  could it be in the missing inquest testimonies?  or i am wrong that some of that is missing?

Preliminary
Bridget
33+
Q.  Did you have any talk about her seeing or hearing Mrs. Borden?
A.  No Sir.

Q.  Did you ask her any questions as to whether she heard anything?
A.  No Sir.

Q.  Or did she say anything?
A.  No Sir.

Q.  Calling your attention; whether you had any talk with her, in which she said anything about hearing her groan?

Page 34

(Objected to.)
(Mr. Knowlton)  I have exhausted the witness' recollection, and now direct her attention.

(Court)  If it is for the purpose of refreshing her recollection of something which you are confident is within her knowledge, the question may be put in that form.

Q. Yes. Miss Lizzie said she was out in the yard, and she heard a groan.

(Mr. Adams)  Heard a groan, or heard her groan?

A.  Heard her father groan I should think.

Q.  What did you say to her before that?
A.  I asked her where she was. She said she was out in the back yard. She heard a groan, and she came in, and the screen door was wide open.

--Well, here's the groan.  The question posited here by a poster wasn't whether she heard a groan or was reported to have said she heard a noise, but where does it say she heard it come from the house?.  That was the challenge.
Though you are absolutely right to double check something like that.

Here's Rebello's reference to what Lizzie supposedly told people that day--pg. 86

-- To Bridget Sullivan "I was out in the back yard and heard a groan and came in and the screen door was wide open." (Trial: 244)

-- To Patrick Doherty "It must have been done while I was in the barn. ... I heard a peculiar noise ... I think it was something like scraping, scraping noise." (Trial: 595)

I should have continued my quote of Moody's opening statement further. Page 74:

"There is, therefore, Bridget Sullivan, to whom she said that she heard a groan, rushed in and found her father; Mrs. Churchill, to whom she said she heard a distress noise, came in and found her father; Officer Mullaly, to whom she said she heard a peculiar noise like scraping, came in and found her father dead; and all those, gentlemen, you see in substance are stories which include the fact that while she was outside she heard some alarming noise which caused her to rush in and discover the homicide."

From this it would not seem too far a false assumption the sound came from the house. I assume she would rush to where she heard the sound. All this assumes also Lizzie was telling the truth and there was a sound. 

(Message last edited Jan-5th-03  11:05 PM.)

I think Bridget's Inquest testimony was lost by May, 1893, as that is when the defence started writing letters asking for it.
The requests are in Knowlton Papers, so if this time frame is wrong someone may want to double check me...

Back now-edit here;
Yes the first reference to the Inquest statement of Bridget Sullivan is page 176, Knowlton Papers:
Knowlton writes Pillsbury that Jennings experts want to see the skulls, and Bridget's testimony. 

He states:  "We declined to give it to them before the indictment, but I see no objection to giving it to them now..  It is almost identical with her story as told before Judge Blaisdell, and will do us no harm."...  MAY 5, 1893.

This is one reason the Preliminary Hearing copy is so interesting and valuable to us.

(Message last edited Jan-5th-03  10:10 PM.)

yes, you're right.  the question was where does it say she heard it coming from the house.

i got sidetracked by the fact that the testimony wasn't where i thought it was and had to find it.

i've never read anything that indicated lizzie saying "where" she thought the sound issued.  i've only noted people speculating about  where it might have come.  given the fact that some accounts -- from the witness statements taken immediately after the murders -- have it that lizzie said she heard nothing -- this makes it characteristically confusing lizziespeak.

i'd never heard anyone speculate that the "groan" the "distressing sound" "the scraping noise" -- were sounds from the victim as she killed him.  i thought this at least worth a consideration.  if this had been a problem for lizzie during the murder, say with the handle breaking off and she had to pull the axe out of the skull.....it might have weighed on her mind enough that she felt like she had to account for hearing it.  NOT that it was logical that she would have heard it had she been in the barn. 

I have to ask you this:
Did Lizzie say she heard nothing, in her Witness Statements?
Or do you mean she doesn't refer to hearing anything, or is not asked, etc.  I'm sure you appreciate the difference.
Since you've been looking at these Statements, and I haven't, what is your determination?

It seems to be true that no one specifically can credit Lizzie with saying she heard a groan from the house.  But I've thought about this since the question was first asked and it only seems logical that upon hearing a groan from Lizzie's place in the yard (her first pristine story), that since she next entered the house (and not first searched under the house or in the barn or called to the window of Churchill's house), that she did go IN , in response to the groan, as it's place of origin.  (As posted by Harry).  I won't quite say she rushed in...because I think of hearing a noise in my own house (unexpectedly--that's the key) and since I have cats, in the daytime, I assume they are the cause of the sound.  I always go look, though.
But when our mother was feeble, and If I heard a groan, I WOULD rush in, as Harry remarked Lizzie might have....as her father was somewhat feeble that day.

Thanks for conversing about my question...not challenge, regarding where the groan originated from. I was hoping someone would come up with some proof that it did come from the house, no one did.

If Andrew died after the carotid artery was severed, which was one of his major wounds and we don't know the exact order of the wounds, then we have to assume that he was d e a d after that wound was inflicted.  (However, the murderer might have continued to strike him after that wound was inflicted.) Therefore if you are assuming that Lizzie, while out near the barn, before she even got to the screen door (which is the wording in the testimony about where she heard these "sounds"), heard her father groan, he must have made a very noisy groan to have carried that far, and as well, you would then have to assume that he groaned before the carotid artery was severed, because after that he was d e a d because the doctors said that was a wound that would cause instantaneous death. Can corpses still elicit sounds after death? If Lizzie is trying to keep herself clear of being thought the murderer, why would she tell several people that she heard a groan someone would attribute to the dead man? That she heard something on her way to the house from the barn was more likely than not NOT Andrew.

If the groan or sound came from somewhere other than inside the house, which is my guess, then she might have heard the murderer leaving...over the fence, out the screen door, scraping a shoe against something, etc.   

Also Attorney Robinson indicated in his statement at trial that there was no way of determining where the sound was coming from that she heard, it could as well have been the street.

from Witness Statements:

Harrington & Doherty:

"Lizzie said she was in the barn, and said, 'no, i did not hear any noise whatever."

(doesn't tell much about the context)

interesting though -- this is later, after she's mentioned sounds to people such as mrs. churchill

OK, thanks for answering.

Then or now, the newspapers are not 1000% reliable. That's why a jury is cautioned against reading reports on the case.

And how reliable are the trial transcripts? They only show what the lawyers allow in. It is a very fuzzy logic to depend on a few newspaper reports.

What are you referring to, please, Ray?

"Lizzie said she was in the barn, and said, 'no, i did not hear any noise whatever."

(doesn't tell much about the context)

interesting though -- this is later, after she's mentioned sounds to people such as mrs. churchill 


Quite so, and the Witness Statements are second hand reports.

I have another idea, which no doubt someone else has already had before me, perhaps Arnold Brown.  I can't remember whether his book goes into this or not.  Perhaps the groan, distressing sound or scaping noise Lizzie heard on her journey from the barn to the screen door was Ellan Egan being sick in the yard.

Wow, haulover.  What a graphic you gave me, picturing the axe busting off and Lizzie pulling it out of Andrew's skull, causing the "scraping sound".  If the murder weapon was the handleless hatchet, that probably really did happen to the murderer (or '-ess').

I don't think we need "proof" as to where Lizzie said the sounds were coming from.  It's implied, isn't it?, that everyone meant coming from the house? 

A groan and a distressing sound could be the same thing.  But a 'scraping sound' is no groan.  I believe Lizzie did say she heard these things - I don't think those that heard her made the statements up.  That would be something that would stick in my mind if I were asking her about it that would strike me as a very important clue.I wondered IF Lizzie were telling the truth at first, the scraping sound was the back door opening.  Sometimes those wooden ones warp on the bottom and scrape the porch, especially if opened quickly.  Or perhaps the scraping sound came from the workmen next door and in her adrenaline-pumping stage she was mistaken as to what direction it came from.  In any event, she denied all when it counted - at the inquest - which makes me believe she decided to deny hearing any sound at all. 

Was Lizzie really sure what she heard?  She was trying to interpret what she heard by vocalizing it to others: it was a peculiar sound, or a groan, a scraping sound or a distressing sound. Since she didn't know what made the sound she was attempting to figure it out by giving different words to describe what she heard.  Other people described what Lizzie told them about the noise, which is another point to consider.

"I don't think we need "proof" as to where Lizzie said the sounds were coming from.  It's implied, isn't it?, that everyone meant coming from the house?" 

That's just it, we don't know what everyone meant. Lizzie just said she heard a groan, the rest is assumed by others. 

Was Lizzie really sure what she heard?  She was trying to interpret what she heard by vocalizing it to others: it was a peculiar sound, or a groan, a scraping sound or a distressing sound. Since she didn't know what made the sound she was attempting to figure it out by giving different words to describe what she heard.  Other people described what Lizzie told them about the noise, which is another point to consider.

"I don't think we need "proof" as to where Lizzie said the sounds were coming from.  It's implied, isn't it?, that everyone meant coming from the house?" 

That's just it, we don't know what everyone meant. Lizzie just said she heard a groan, the rest is assumed by others. 

Well, then... to the Purist, Bridget said Lizzie said.
(Prelim. 34)

Explain please?

That Lizzie didn't actually SAY anything to US about a groan.
To be precise, what we know of a groan was heresay testimony of Bridget.
Bridget says Lizzie says she heard a groan.
If we are talking *bottom line* here, and are not to assume anything, then the actual *fact* of a groan *heard* rests on someone other than Lizzie.
Splitting hairs, but pure unadulterated fact.

Lizzie's remarks about "hearing groans" and "being in the barn" can be dismissed as self-serving statements.
She didn't hear a groan and she wasn't in the barn. These crude maneuvers were frantic attempts to establish an alibi, and to prove she wasn't in the house when the dastardly deed went down. She was there - - she 'done it.'

Right - this one said Lizzie said this - that one said Lizzie said that.  And of course they meant the sound was supposed to be coming from the house.   Why would they ask Lizzie about what she heard coming from anywhere else?  The 'groan', 'distressed noise', 'scraping sound' had no reason to be left out of her inquest testimony by her unless she was lying.  I agree with William.

Earlier it was asked:  When could Lizzie have heard Abby come in?
After checking the Inquest doc., she tells her questioner that she never said *I thought I heard her come in.*
She only admits to thinking Abby had been out and asking someone to go look.

Inquest
Lizzie
78
A. I thought she was out of the house; I thought she had gone out. I called Maggie to go to Dr. Bowen's. When they came I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." I thought she had gone out.
Q. Did you tell Maggie you thought your mother had come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. That you thought you heard her come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you say to anybody that you thought she was killed up stairs?
A. No, sir.
--------
83
A. I did not do anything, except what I said to Mrs. Churchill. I said to her: "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is. I think she is out, but I wish you would look."
Q. You did ask her to look?
A. I said that to Mrs. Churchill.
Q. Where did you intend for her to look?
A. In Mrs. Borden's room.

For those who think Lizzie was personally guilty of murdering both Abby and Andrew, what's your theory as to how she managed to either avoid getting blood on her person or clean herself up if she was bloody?  While I've always thought Lizzie "sounded" guilty in her inquest testimony and in statements she made on August 4, I have trouble getting around that one stumbling block.  If she went to the barn to clean up and hid bloody items there, wouldn't the police have found them?  It sounds to me as if they did a pretty thorough job of searching there.

1) the murderer carried away the hatchet in his shoulder bag. this explains why it was never found.
2) the murderer wore a duster (like a raincoat) over his suit, so no one saw any blood stains on a dark wool suit.
3) Lizzie and Uncle John (and Emma?) covered up the truth (family secret).
4) the simplest explanation is likely to be the true one - William of Occam.

That's right though, good point about the groan, if Lizzie didn't say it in her inquest statement then it's second hand information. What is next to consider is who said Lizzie said.  Bridget is considered by most of those on this board as not a liar, Mrs. Churchill also, and many consider Alice Russell sparkling as well.  So, then we have to consider what information did those others pass on about what Lizzie said, how many agreed, and we also have to consider the police interviews in which she is said to have said this or that about the noise. If you have a collection of people who all agree or semi-agree on what she said, then it is closer to a fact that it was said, or so I would think, unless all those people had reason to lie.  So since several people said something about Lizzie hearing a noise then it's down to did Lizzie not remember she heard a noise or is she lying about it occuring when she left the barn on her way back to the house?

that lizzie heard that noise is believable in that she finds it difficult to describe.  the question to answer is why does she later find it necessary to deny having heard anything.  i find it hard to believe that she manufacturered hearing this "peculiar sound."  but why does she then back off from it, as though she recognizes that it incriminates her?

Well, now that this thread has been resurrected I see that we most of us on this *board* think Bridget is not a liar, that we think Alice is sparkling, and that Mrs. Churchill is also not a liar.
Hmmm.
Information we can file away, huh?

Why does Lizzie later say she didn't hear a sound? I don't know. But why only consider that it was because she had something to hide?

"....I see that we most of us on this *board* think Bridget is not a liar, that we think Alice is sparkling, and that Mrs. Churchill is also not a liar.  Hmmm. Information we can file away, huh?"  Would you like to explain this one? What I said, you seem to be quoting me, was in the context of an explanation about whether one's testimony is considered valid because of the value that is placed on the speaker.

if we are to get anywhere, we might as well consider bridget and mrs. churchill innocent of the murders and look into  what they said.

in my opinion, these two are totally innocent. i've never seen a plausible case brought against them, and i can't construct one myself.