Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden
Topic Name: Where there's a will

1. "Where there's a will"
Posted by harry on Apr-12th-03 at 10:05 AM

Some idle speculation. 

The daylight robbery of the Borden house which occurred in June 1891 has always been mysterious. There doesn't seem to be any logical reason for it.

I ran across this in Rebello, p36:

"Captain [Dennis] Desmond, Jr., then inspector of the department, was detailed to look after the stolen articles. He made a long search, but could find no trace of the missing valuables. The peculiarity was that the only thing disturbed was Mr. Borden's desk where a man might be believed to have kept his private papers was significant.  ..."

Was the robbery just a cover-up for it's true purpose.. a search for a possible will? Failing to find one the robber would have to take something. 

page 35:  "A lady's gold watch with a chain and locket, a red Russia[n] leather pocketbook with a lock of hair, horse car tickets and a small sum of money were missing."

Unfortuately it doesn't say what was not taken, if anything.

This ls also interesting (also p36):

"The chief (Hilliard) said he was satisfied that Lizzie committed the theft, and went on to say how he convinced Mr. Borden that such was the case."


2. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by rays on Apr-12th-03 at 11:14 AM
In response to Message #1.

I once read that if the original copy of a will is destroyed, the copies become irrelevant. But could there have been other information that was sought?
For example, when Andy sued Joseph W Carpenter, the latter exposed the sleazy business practices of his funeral business. Selling high priced coffins, then burying the deceased in cheaper coffins. (No customer complaints!) You need a court order to dig up a buried person, as in many other cases.


3. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by Kat on Apr-12th-03 at 1:30 PM
In response to Message #1.

If something important was taken away, like a will, wouldn't Andrew have a year to replace it?  And keep it in a more secure place.
(How long did it take to open that safe, after the crimes, do you know?  Was it a day or a couple of days)

That's a good question you ask because we wondered if the robbery was a dress-rehersal for what came next, but didn't add in the factor of a real try at a real sensitive document.

If the same person was hired to commit the robbery, they sure messed up by not taking anything after the murders!  At least Andrew's money in his pocket!
It might have kept Lizzie from being arrested, or not?  What does anyone think?


4. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by harry on Apr-12th-03 at 1:58 PM
In response to Message #3.

If it was Lizzie she just may have wanted to read the will.  In any case she would have had to make it look like a robbery to hide it's real purpose.

I personally don't believe there was a will but Andrew may have mentioned his need to make one.  From that Lizzie may have thought that he indeed did make one.

I think if there was a will Jennings would have known of it. I can't even conceive of him sheltering Lizzie and condoning a double brutal murder by hiding its existence.  He was far more closer to Andrew than he was to Lizzie.


5. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by Carol on Apr-12th-03 at 2:53 PM
In response to Message #4.

Yes, if it was Lizzie she might have wanted to see it, but then why not just go up to his room sometime when he and Abby were occupied elsewhere, and look in the desk? Since the fellow, was it Mr. Cook, said that Mr.Borden had made a comment shortly before the murders that he might want to make his own will out, if that was true then there would have been no will to look at or steal when the break-in occurred.

My question is about the doors at the time of the break-in. What I have read has said that all the extra locks were put on doors after the break-in, because of the break-in.  Just what doors were locked at the time of the break-in? The outside doors, like the cellar door and the front door would have locks on in a normal home, and the screen might or might not have been so actively watched for being hooked. But was Andrews bedroom door locked then, and was the door leading to the desk in his room have been locked?  Was it considered a break-in just because Lizzie said she found a nail in the lock of the cellar door and some items stolen?  If someone went in for papers like a will, then not finding them, why not just slip out of the house again rather than take something and make it known to others that the house had been broken-into, other than to warn people the house was easy prey?


6. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by harry on Apr-12th-03 at 3:47 PM
In response to Message #5.

As I read the testimony both the door and the desk were locked.


7. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by Susan on Apr-13th-03 at 4:22 PM
In response to Message #1.

I can't find any info for this, I did read it in Lincoln, that the robbery occurred shortly after Lizzie and Emma switched bedrooms.  Does anyone have any proof of that being the case?  It just adds an interesting little twist to the story.  Lizzie moves into the big bedroom, she has access to the elder Borden's bedroom through the connecting door.  Abby and Andrew are out of town and Lizzie decides to dig through their belongings.  If Lizzie is indeed the klepto she is made out to be, its easy to see her lightfingering a few items that catch her fancy.

Its interesting that Hilliard points the finger of guilt at Lizzie and convinces Andrew of that.  Was it Lizzie's behaviour that day that lead him to that conclusion?  Or, are those stories true of Lizzie taking items from stores and Hilliard knows of it already from shop owners?  Hmmmmm. 


8. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by Kat on Apr-13th-03 at 7:21 PM
In response to Message #7.

For what it's worth, the context of Hilliard's statement that it was Lizzie all along, was what he told the grand jury.
Remember he is seeking an indictment.  He may say just about anything.
Desmond who investigated didn't give us that opinion.

Emma's testimony at the Trial, 1563, is all we KNOW about the timing of the room change:
Q.  Which room had she occupied?
A.  The one that I now have.

Q.  When was the change made?
A.  I don't know.

Q.  How long ago, about?
A.  I should think not more than two years.

--If "not more than 2 years", that would be 2 years or less.  Maybe slightly less than 2 years.
1891 to 1892 = 1 year.
1892 to 1893 = 2 years
The trial was in June 1893.
So less than 2 years would be prior to June 1891.
Or June, 1891, whichever way you interpret that statement.

The robbery was in June, 1891.

The room change could be that spring, maybe, until that June, sounds like anyway.

BTW:  Lizzie returned from her trip abroad around mid-November, of 1890, which was only 7 months prior to a room change and a robbery.

(Message last edited Apr-13th-03  7:27 PM.)


9. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by Susan on Apr-14th-03 at 12:07 PM
In response to Message #8.

So, it does sound as though it would fit.  Thanks for finding that.

Yes, I agree, Hilliard can say what ever he wants at this point about Lizzie doing everything bad in that household, Andrews not there to disagree with him.  But, I am still curious if he really did try to convince Andrew years before of Lizzie's guilt and if its some sort of personal vendetta? 


10. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by rays on Apr-14th-03 at 12:55 PM
In response to Message #3.

You are ASSUMING it was a will. Suppose it was the signed confession of JW Carpenter? Or some other PERSONAL business paper? Maybe who Andy expected to swindle next? (Remember the Brayton family thing?)

Some may be fixated on a "will".


11. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by harry on Apr-14th-03 at 3:43 PM
In response to Message #7.

That's a good point Susan.  I think Lizzie would have helped herself to few of Abby's things.

The car tickets were Andrew's but all the other items were Abby's. The amount of money was described as small.

Even if she found a will (which I don't believe) she could not have taken it.  As Kat said it could easily be replaced and there would undoubtedly have been copies elsewhere.  But she would have loved to have read it if there was one.

When Bridget was asked questions about the robbery at the trial it was ruled inadmissible and not competent as it had occurred too remote in time from the crimes. 


12. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by Kat on Apr-14th-03 at 6:02 PM
In response to Message #9.

I don't see why Lizzie changing rooms would give her any more access to the Elder Borden's room than she didn't have already, being attached to the bigger room as she was while she grew up in the little room does that make anysense?

Also, do we know if the elder's bedroom was locked while they were gone, or before the robbery?
It seems if it was locked (it would defeat the purpose, but) it would be extremely prudent to supply the remaining household with the key in case of fire.
Didn't they worry about that a lot in the days of lamps and lanterns, and candles and fireplaces?

Lizzie worried about it aloud to Alice Wednesday night, Aug. 3, 1892.


13. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by rays on Apr-14th-03 at 6:03 PM
In response to Message #11.

But did Lizzie ALONE have a dislike of Abby? What did Emma testify?
AR Brown quotes Henry Hawthorne (if you believe it, and I do) about William S Borden's comments on "that fat pig". Sounds awfully hateful and bitter to me.

Ever hear some people bemoan their fates this way? After a few drinks?


14. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by Kat on Apr-14th-03 at 6:14 PM
In response to Message #13.

It does sound hateful & bitter and it sounds like Mr. Brown!  In my opinion.


15. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by Carol on Apr-14th-03 at 6:18 PM
In response to Message #6.

What testimony, from whom?  Then if Andrew's door and desk were both locked and only the cellar door had the nail in it, what does the testimony say as to how Andrew's door and desk were opened?  Were the locks broken open, did someone have a key? 


16. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by harry on Apr-14th-03 at 6:19 PM
In response to Message #14.

Sounds like Brown to me too.  After reading some of his letters to the LBQ, the ones that they said were printable, I have no doubts.

Scary stuff.


17. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by harry on Apr-14th-03 at 7:38 PM
In response to Message #15.

I can't remember from where I read it Carol. Lincoln? The newspapers?  I didn't look it up ahead of time. Maybe someone else knows more about the locks.

How, if it was Lizzie, she got in wasn't the point of my post.  I was speculating on why Lizzie would want to search the desk and the robbery was just a cover for that search.


18. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by Susan on Apr-15th-03 at 12:11 AM
In response to Message #12.

My thought with that was that before when the big room was Emma's, where would Emma spend most of her time when the elder Bordens were home?  In her room.  When Lizzie and she switched rooms, Lizzie was now in possesion of the big room, Emma would stay in her small bedroom.  Maybe after moving in there and exploring her new space she found that the connecting door wasn't locked or that there was a spare key for it?  She could sneak in there when they weren't up there, who knows, maybe even Emma herself showed Lizzie that she could do that when they switched rooms?  I'm just trying to make some sense out of it, but, we do know, the elder Bordens were robbed and Lizzie had the big bedroom when it happened.

Perhaps Andrew did his usual locking up of his room and left the key on the mantel in the sitting room. 


19. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by Kat on Apr-15th-03 at 2:29 AM
In response to Message #18.

I always considered those rooms almost as one.  I think they would loll around the big room and the guest room.  I would think the little room was mainly used for sleeping or if someone wanted to be really alone, in my opinion.

That's why I think the sisters would share the knowledge of a way into Andrew's room, so yea I could see that.
Lizzie does matter-of-factly state tho, that it takes a key to get in there and she has none.  (If she is believed.)  Sounded true enough.

We don't know that the rooms had been traded by June 24th, 1891.
To be technical, the Trial was June 5-20th.  June 24th, 1893, would be *more than 2 years*.
The spirit of Terence moves me sometimes.  That minute attention to detail.  I do love it tho.
Of course your interpretation may differ.


20. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by harry on Apr-15th-03 at 9:46 AM
In response to Message #17.

Doing a little searching re the "robbery' I was able to find the following in the Knowlton Papers, HK067, pages 74-75. This is by Police Officer Desmond who investigated the incident:

" ... On 2nd floor in a small room on north side of house I found Mr Borden's desk. It had been broken open. Mr Borden said "$80.00 in money and 25 to 30 dollars in gold, and a large number of H car tickets had been taken. ... Mrs. Borden said "her gold watch & chain, ladies chain, with slide & tassel attached,some other small trinkets of jewelry, and a red Russia leather pocket-book containing a lock of hair had been taken. ..."

"Nothing but the property of Mr & Mrs Borden reported as missing.
The family was at a loss to see how any person could get in, and out without somebody seeing them. Lizzie Borden said "the cellar door was open,and someone might have come in that way." I visited all the adjoining houses, ... and made a thorough search of the neighborhood to find some person who might have seen someone going, or coming from Mr Borden's house; but I failed to find any trace.
I did get a 6 or 8 penny nail which "Lizzie Borden said she found in the Key hole of door," leading to a sleeping room on 2nd floor, east end of building. So far as I know this robbery has never been solved. ..."


21. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by rays on Apr-15th-03 at 5:52 PM
In response to Message #16.

I suspect that AR Brown, like many in upper management, did not take criticism cheerfully. Especially after writing an 1100 page book that solved the crime. (It certainly does in theory!)
But I didn't read any of this, except one or two letters on the main site.


22. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by rays on Apr-15th-03 at 5:54 PM
In response to Message #18.

Don't forget that Emma's room was on the north side of the house.
Perhaps better in summer? And just as warm in winter?
Assuming the switch in rooms was done just as Emma said.


23. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by Carol on Apr-16th-03 at 4:31 PM
In response to Message #20.

Ok, so the police investigation tells us that it was not the cellar door that the nail was in, it was Mr. & Mrs. Borden's bedroom door that Lizzie found it in, but that the cellar door was open.  How easy was it to open doors of that age with a nail I wonder? Also we find that it was the desk that was broken into. Nothing is said of the closet door into the area which contained the desk, whether it was broken into or never locked.  I would think if Andrew did have a will it would have been in the safe not the desk. A safe would have been harder to break open. Also interesting is that there was a lock of hair which was in a leather pocket-book and both were taken. Perhaps the lock of hair, being the most sentimental and not monetary in value, was the intended prize?


24. "Re: Where there's a will"
Posted by rays on Apr-16th-03 at 5:02 PM
In response to Message #23.

If you are old enough (over 50 years?) to remember those old flat keys (or the skeleton keys that would open many doors) you'd appreciate the story of a bent nail. They are mostly extinct since WW 2, and replaced by "Yale" keys.



 

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