Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Second Street Second-Hand Shop
Topic Name: Signed four times

1. "Signed four times"
Posted by Stefani on Mar-21st-03 at 2:44 PM



Once again the "signed four times" book of Lizzie and Emma's signatures is up for sale. THIS TIME, however, the book is auctioned by Southeby's with a buyer's premium of $825. That is over and above the minimum bid of $6325!

This piece has been up for sale at least a half dozen times. I do hope the seller finds a good home for this great piece. However, the price is over the top, in my opinion. Wanna take up a collection and co-own?


2. "Re: Signed four times"
Posted by Edisto on Mar-21st-03 at 6:30 PM
In response to Message #1.

Actually, I think Sotheby's (which is in a heap o' trouble in a price-fixing scheme) has lost its marbles.  These folks couldn't sell the item for $5500 (no buyer's premium), so now somebody is going to pay an even higher price so Sotheby's can make money on it?  I don't think so!  As you may recall, I was in touch with the seller the first time it was offered.  I would pay a fair price for the item, but even $5500 really isn't a fair price, and they weren't willing to deal at all.  While I'm sure this is a legitimate item, the only signature with much value is Lizzie's.  If the four signatures could be separated and resold, it might be a decent buy, but the context is important, so they shouldn't be separated.  I was told that the seller overpaid for it and is trying to recoup most of his investment.  Too bad.  The only thing you can do in a case like that is to eat your loss and move on.


3. "Re: Signed four times"
Posted by Stefani on Mar-21st-03 at 7:44 PM
In response to Message #2.

So I read it wrong? The premium is included in the price that is the minimum bid? gosh, how did I miss that?


4. "Re: Signed four times"
Posted by Tina-Kate on Mar-22nd-03 at 3:01 AM
In response to Message #3.

Any idea who the seller is?


5. "Re: Signed four times"
Posted by Edisto on Mar-22nd-03 at 5:51 PM
In response to Message #4.

I have the seller's name here somewhere (didn't find it in my current address list).  It isn't anyone we would know from the Borden community, such as one of the Borden authors.  The owner is a bookseller, who (as I recall) bought it at auction and has held it for ten years or so.  I was in touch with his wife, who apparently answers the email.  She was pleasant to deal with.  She said they had an offer for it, but it is, in their opinion, ridiculously low.  If that's true, it isn't really an offer.


6. "Re: Signed four times"
Posted by njwolfe on Mar-24th-03 at 1:42 PM
In response to Message #5.

I was on Ebay today and so far noone has bid on it! 
Ridiculously overpriced!


7. "Re: Signed four times"
Posted by rays on Mar-24th-03 at 4:11 PM
In response to Message #6.

A fool and his money are soon parted.
What objective value does this have?

Would you like to buy a collection of baseball cards? Guaranteed to be worth a lot less than originally paid for.


8. "Re: Signed four times"
Posted by Stefani on Mar-24th-03 at 5:31 PM
In response to Message #6.

I think the seller should donate the collection to the Fall River Historical Society and take a big charitable contribution on their income taxes. I can't see anyone paying that amount.

I sure would like to own it, but no way I am paying that price.

Since we all think this is too much to pay, what do you think would be fair? I think maybe $1800.


9. "Re: Signed four times"
Posted by njwolfe on Mar-24th-03 at 6:07 PM
In response to Message #8.

Yes, Stefani, the seller should just donate his goods, who
else would want them but us LIzzie buffs?  I think $500 is
the most they should be priced, jeez almost 7000 is crazy.


10. "Re: Signed four times"
Posted by Edisto on Mar-24th-03 at 8:35 PM
In response to Message #8.

A couple of years ago, the book value for an authentic Lizzie signature was $1000-$1200.  That was for one signature.  This of course is four signatures; however, it would be difficult to separate them, so they shouldn't count as four separate items.  Also, Emma Borden's signature has some value, although far less than Lizzie's.  I couldn't find a book value for it, but I estimate it would be in the $100-$200 range.  Again, there are four of them, but they're inseparable.  The book itself and some of the other signatures might have some value.  I estimated a good (top) value would be around $3,000-$4,000.  And yes, I do agree that it belongs in the FRHS, but the too-high opening bid probably means they won't get it.  Dirty shame.  The only person who would buy it is someone like Michael Jackson, with more money than sense, IMHO.  Once in San Francisco, I saw a then-hot celebrity couple buy everything in sight at an antique show, paying 'way more than the stuff was worth.  Money to burn, it's called.


11. "Re: Signed four times"
Posted by Kat on Mar-24th-03 at 11:01 PM
In response to Message #10.

Is this the book/ledger that has the "Andrew J. Borden, atty" signature?

If so, Diana has found that we have no examples of Andrew's signature in our true copy land deeds.

MM at FRHS has mentioned that samples of Andrew's signature are not prolific.  They may be out there but are hoarded?

Is it possible His signature may add more to the value?

Anyone seriously considering bidding on this book might contact MM at FRHS as to rarity of certain signatures.  (Meaning please don't take rely on me on auction items)

This reproduction I 'm affixing here was captured by me last sale.  If this is NOT the item, please someone correct me.



(Message last edited Mar-24th-03  11:06 PM.)


12. "Re: Signed four times"
Posted by Edisto on Mar-25th-03 at 8:40 AM
In response to Message #11.

You're right, Kat.  It is the same item.  Yes, the possible "Andrew" signature is one of the others that I said might have value.  However, we have no real verification that it is the signature of "our" Andrew, and even if it were, what would be its value?  I doubt that Michael Martins would be an authority on that, and I also doubt that he would be able to verify it as authentic.  I'm afraid there are 'way too many untrained people out there verifying Borden items as it is.  Martins probably has experts on whom he could call, at a price, and it might make sense to do that if he intended to purchase it for the FRHS.  I was basing my estimate of the item's worth on what I already know.  It might take months to authenticate any of the other signatures (other than Lizzie's and Emma's), and an auction doesn't allow that much time.  If the sellers want this much money for the item, they themselves should get it authenticated.  They haven't bothered to do that. (Sotheby's of course has its own experts who could do it for them.)



 

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