1. "death sites"
Posted by Stefani on Feb-2nd-03 at 10:40 AM

http://www.deathndementia.com/category/crime.html

A very interesting site. Pretty complete. Take a look!

This one is fun: http://users.bestweb.net/~rg/execution.htm,
I'm happy to say none of my folks are listed ---
http://users.bestweb.net/~rg/execution/TENNESSEE.htm.


Massachusetts has 10 more executions than Tennessee, but they have a lot of people hanged for witchcraft. But TN did pretty good --- only started in 1782 and Massachusetts has been at it since 1630. Almost as many in 152 less years.

I have seen several men put to death for "SODMY-BUGGRY-BST" and,
well, I know what the first part means, but I don't know what the
rest is.

                      EXECUTIONS IN MASSACHUSETTS

SPOONER BATHSHEBA 32 WHITE FEMALE HOUSEWIFE MURDER HANGING JUL 2 1778



ANDREWS SUSANNA WHITE FEMALE CONCEALING BIRTH HANGING 1696

CHAMBLETT REBECCA 27 WHITE FEMALE CONCEALING BIRTH HANGING SEP 27 1733

PIGGEN HANNAH FEMALE CONCEALING BIRTH HANGING 1785

And why did "concealing birth" warrant a hanging???

Thanks for the link, Stef.  Pretty interesting and gruesome stuff they have there! 

Maybe because it meant killing the child?

It doesn't say anything about killing a baby --- just "concealing"
the fact it was on the way. If it involved killing a newborn wouldn't it say murder? Now when women hide it & dump their newborns in garbage cans they don't arrest them for hiding being pregnant.

Well, a dictionary might help, because I don't want to get too graphic here.  I suspect the "BST" may be "bestiality," if that helps.

Ohhh....yeesh!

The "concealing birth" is interesting phraseology. The dates listed were late 1600 and 1700's for the three women. I wonder what that means in Puritanese.  My guess would be that since it states there was a birth but that it was concealed that the woman involved either had a child or knew someone who did and she didn't admit to the birth and the child died and was later found out. If it wasn't her child though I don't know why she would have been so severely punished. 

I found a site on folklore & they have dozens of old
remedies to -- shall we say -- "cure" you of your unwanted
child. Some involve drinking water that nails have been allowed
to rust in. Reading some of those it is amazing anyone survived
anything. And it also may explain why so many women died
when they were pregnant. These self-induced miscarriages
seemed to be little more than poisoning yourself.

(Message last edited Feb-24th-03  12:23 AM.)

It might relate back to the old laws of primogeniture.
In England, I believe, it was law.
A person could not deceive or pass off a child as legitimate or illegtimate or as never being born due to strict inheritence laws.

Kat's answer makes the most sense.  I was thinking of the pre-marital sex thing back then, maybe punishment for being pregnant without marriage.  But it does say birth.  Still, if Kat's got it, it's a pretty severe punishment!

I had to remind myself that men, literally owned everything, children, wives, livestock, abodes.
And the passing of land was a HUGE deal, and the name, to a first-born boy-child.
In England a land baron was the law--unless one appealed to the King.
So it seems they could pass and carry out such sentences, in their own best interests.

Primogeniture was one of the first laws abolished in US of A, as it was in France after their revolution. The law of division replaced it; all legitimate children shared equally, barring a will. In France ALL children shared in the legacy, no matter what. Equality?

"Concealing" may have been another euphemism of the day.

(Message last edited Mar-1st-03  11:19 AM.)

Sex w/o mariage is fornication, then or now. Whether a law is enforced is a social and political thing (who benefits?). As a teenager, I used to read in the newspapers about the men indicted "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge".

This is ONLY under English law. The laws on the Continent followed Roman Law (like LA and southwest states, w/ community property).
Roman Law treated marriage like a business, where each brought something, and took something away when a partner died, was killed, etc.

Or maybe they were "much too friendly with their pets"? A good euphemism, like V Lincoln's story about Lizzie: "she was unkind to her parents".

I once read that the word "cow puncher" was an insult in the 19th century. You can figure this out for yourself.

(Message last edited Feb-28th-03  1:41 PM.)

You may take the rule of primogeniture out of England, bring it to America that was under the King's law until Our Revolution.
You also can't immediately wipe out a custom & law that has withstood many generations and was probably extra-important to a newly emerging country such as this.

1696-1785 seems about right to still be observing these types of laws.  (See post #4, Kimberly)

So, when exactly did this country become, techinally, *The U S of A* ? and abolish foriegn laws?

The Articles of Confederacy after the 1781 British defeat, and the US Constitution of 1789. Most states changed their constitution circa 1776 (Mass, Penna, Va) or soon after. They adopted republican principles. You ought to read A DeTocqueville's "Democracy in Ammerica" circa 1834 which documented his observations while travelling in America. Your public library should have an old copy.

[Altho there were some features left, like the Dutch patroon system in northern NY state. The movie "Dragonwyck" does a Hollywood version of this history. Citizens dressed up as Indians, and raided those large landowners who refused to sell land to their workers. Then the laws were changed.]

(Message last edited Mar-1st-03  11:24 AM.)

So we ARe still in the same time frame?

Thanks for the info.

There is a T.V. program on Sunday night about the *Salem Witches*.
Don't know if it's a mini-series.
I'll be watching that after I clean litter boxes.

"Dragnet" is a new TV show Sunday nights.

On March 2, 2003 they had a drama based on the 1971 John List family murder case. This was one solved by the new "America's Most Wanted" back around 1990. Using real cases is one way to create realistic drama. But these cases are all wrapped up in 40 minutes!

Last week they had a murder case based on an event from 20+ years ago. The mistress of a dead millionaire was beaten to death. Her keeper was an important friend of the President, and had many sex orgies. Rumor was this young woman had a video with some Highly Important People in it! Her death meant her lips were sealed. You may be able to find this book in a large county library.

The star was a former footbal player who gained fame as a comic character. He has the face for that, or for a real person; he does not look like a Hollywood star, more like the guy down the street.

You must get channels I don't.
I would liked to have seen the List program.

Did anybody see the Salem Witch Trial show?
I watched it for about 40 minutes but I didn't like it.

I hear it stars Shirley MacLaine as Rebecca Nurse! Forgive me but I can't help picturing her in a top hat, tap dancing to the gallows. "Out On A Limb" indeed.

No, I missed out on it.  Was it awful? 

That was on ABC, not a cable show. But you have to know your 'true crime' books to know this. I prefer the ones that were never solved.
Ever read "The Mad Butcher of Kingsbury Run"?

Last fall the local library had a book on these trials. They suspect that a wet harvest of rye (ergot poisoning) caused this "witchcraft" phenomenon. Discovered anew in 1945 France, investigation led to the purification of LSD later, and its use by Central Intelligence (and others).

(Message last edited Mar-4th-03  6:17 PM.)

Yea!  It's use by Cary Grant!

I missed the "List" because of the "Witches", I bet!
I have the book on List and have seen the actual photo's of the bodies, but haven't read the book.  I know the gist of the List story.  That must be a repeat because I remember this discussion before.

The Kingsbury run was the "Chop-Up" job that led to Elliot Nesses ruin?  Was that Cincinatti?  The serial dismemberment killings which were never solved?  They thought the murderer moved on to California, or am I mixing my cases.
I did read the Kingsbury run book but my gosh that was YEARS ago!

I thought the Witch movie sucked.  I can read about that stuff but watching it bores me.
Kirstie Alley was REALLY good and she was also Really good last month playing the *retarded* woman who marries  a black man who also is retarded and they have a child.  Based on a true story from several decades ago, THAT was excellent.

Apparently Kirstie needs the $bucks as I think she owes that ex-Hardy-Boy a lot of her hard-earned money!  I'm glad she's working.

I read that Kingsbury Run book last year. Murders were never solved officially. E Ness tells one story about why it stopped; the suspect signed himself into a mental hospital (couldn't be touched).

Eliot Ness began to sample the high life of drinking and night clube. His succes was as an employee, not a politician. When he ran for mayor of Cleveland, he was defeated (maybe should have done this after his term as police chief?). Do read the book, its worth it.

I don't know WHY I can never remember it was CLEVELAND.

Thanks.

Wonder if the name of the city gave the killer ideas?