Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Stay to Tea
Topic Name: Speaking of Poison

1. "Speaking of Poison"
Posted by Edisto on Jan-10th-03 at 8:13 PM

Guess everybody's read that news story about the eighteen-year-old who spiked his buddy's Vanilla Coke with cyanide he obtained over the Internet.  Now if Lizzie had only lived 110 years later, she wouldn't have had to deal with that contrary ol' Eli Bence.  She coulda ordered up a mess of Prussic acid and charged it to Andrew's credit card.  Ellicott City (MD) where this crime took place is a lovely, quaint little town with many antique shops.  I'm sure most of the teenagers there lead very pampered lives.  Too pampered, sounds like.


2. "Re: Speaking of Poison"
Posted by Susan on Jan-10th-03 at 9:54 PM
In response to Message #1.

No. I haven't heard of this story.  Thats horrible!  The only thing I seem to hear in the news out here lately is about Diana Ross and her DUI, thats a tragedy. 


3. "Re: Speaking of Poison"
Posted by Kat on Jan-10th-03 at 10:12 PM
In response to Message #1.

No I haven't heard this either.  A GUY poisoned a GUY?  Did he die?

According to the Sears catalogue, Lizzie could have ordered a poison by mail in 1892!
Maybe that's why she was so concerned with whether there was any mail for her on Thursday.


4. "Re: Speaking of Poison"
Posted by kimberly on Jan-10th-03 at 10:22 PM
In response to Message #1.

Personally, if someone was going to kill me (no threats *yet*)
I would prefer cyanide, that seems like the best way to go. I
have been having nightmares lately about being murdered & dumped
somewhere, I blame www.crimelibrary.com, I usually pick out
a story to read before bed.


5. "Re: Speaking of Poison"
Posted by Kat on Jan-10th-03 at 10:35 PM
In response to Message #4.

Really you would be no better off reading Grimms Fairy Tales or reciting the prayer "Now I Lay Me Down To Sleep."  That one scared me when I was little!  Or "Rock-A-Bye Baby".  Whoever invented THAT one was a sadist!

There is some theory that victims can possibly be chosen because they act oblivious, unaware of their surroundings, head in the clouds, walk alone--or else they really pissed someone off!  (Do any of these sound like you?)

Anyway, don't be scared...your nightmares are working some emotional upheaval out of your system...unless you have really p.o.'d someone!


6. "Re: Speaking of Poison"
Posted by kimberly on Jan-10th-03 at 11:13 PM
In response to Message #5.

You know, actually what I was thinking in my dream was that if I
had to be killed & left somewhere I sure hoped I wasn't naked
(little bashful smiley face goes here). I think it was from the
Black Dahlia, being dead is one thing---but being left naked and
spread eagle is adding insult to injury. But, I guess that is the point of it.
My killing didn't bother me very much, it was
the being "exposed" that bothered me. I think the naked dreams
mean you are feeling like someone will uncover something about
you, but there isn't much I wont share, maybe I just need to
work out more.........


http://www.bethshort.com/
http://www.crimelibrary.com/dahlia/doll.htm


My edit: I always try to do all the personal safety precautions
they tell you to do---make sure the doors are locked when I'm
driving & that the house is locked up (even during the day).
And trying to walk around looking tough & a bit grumpy.

Has everyone had those dreams where someone is after you &
you can't scream? I've always assumed that means that you are
trying to get someone to listen to you & they wont. I had one
of those except I was in a car & someone was trying to get in
and the horn wouldn't work. Being a True Crime "fan" does not
help at all!

These are my bedtime stories tonight:
http://www.johnsrealmonline.com/paranormal/main.html
http://www.ghostweb.com/carter1.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/3548/local.htm

(Message last edited Jan-10th-03  11:56 PM.)


7. "Re: Speaking of Poison"
Posted by Edisto on Jan-11th-03 at 8:10 PM
In response to Message #2.

These were two high-school guys, one of them kinda cute (in my opinion, anyway) and the other one a complete geek (IMHO).  There was also a girl who was friendly with both of them, and she apparently developed a romantic interest in the cuter guy.  No mystery there.  Then the geeky guy told his friend, "Hey, I'm interested in her too, and I'm gonna do what's necessary to win out."  Well, what he viewed as "necessary" was to spike his friend's drink with cyanide.  Yeah, the friend was taken to the hospital in critical condition and has since died.  And I thought I had problems with my teenagers!


8. " Speaking of Poison--AHA!"
Posted by Kat on Jan-12th-03 at 11:56 AM
In response to Message #3.

AHA!
A MOTIVE FOR ANDREW'S MURDER!

White package.  Andrew is seen by 2 women carrying it home.
It is mail for Lizzie.  It is her order of arsenic from the Sears catalogue.
He has opened it, because he does not respect her privacy.
She is on the spot now.  He knows!
But he doesn't know abby is dispatched already, by a more certain method.
He is angry.
He confronts her!
She loses it and has to kill the witness.
Contents dissolved and flushed.
Box and wrapper burned in the stove.
The irony was that the package arrived too late.....

TA-DAAA.  (You have inspired me once again, Edisto!)

This has been pure speculation, labeled as such for discriminating palettes such as Ray...

(Message last edited Jan-12th-03  11:58 AM.)


9. "  Speaking of Poison--AHA!"
Posted by Kat on Jan-13th-03 at 12:01 AM
In response to Message #8.

Well, I rather liked this post.
Is it too simple?
Or everyone is quiet, in awe!?  [NOT!]

In this scenario, Abby is the victim all along.
Andrew is done at a moment's notice.
Also, Bridget would have to have heard some of THAT argument!


10. "Re:   Speaking of Poison--AHA!"
Posted by Susan on Jan-13th-03 at 2:42 AM
In response to Message #9.

I really liked your idea, it puts a new twist on things!  But, I just can't help but remember Bridget's testimony and Mrs. Kelly's about what Andrew was carrying, same as a paper or a book.  Would'nt something ordered from a catalog come in a box or do you think its possible that it came in an envelope or packet? 


11. "Re: Speaking of Poison"
Posted by rays on Jan-13th-03 at 3:12 PM
In response to Message #4.

Cyanide (WW II era "L pills") kills quickly and painfully. In Agatha Christie's "Murder of Roger Ackroyd" the killer chooses Veronal, like a sleeping tablet?, for an easy death. (If you never read this, you're in for a treat!)

Cleopatra chose an asp.

If you are thinking of this PLEASE call a suicide hotline! Suicide is a permanent solution for what is a temporary problem!!! We all die soon enough.


12. "Re:   Speaking of Poison--AHA!"
Posted by Kat on Jan-13th-03 at 7:50 PM
In response to Message #10.

I recall that it was a downstreet witness and Mrs. Kelly who saw a small package in Andrew's hand.
Did Bridget see that when he arrived home?
Is that in the trial?
I checked the Prelim. and Bridget says she see's him sit down in the sitting room with a book or papers, but that is the last she saw him.
He had already arrived, moved from room to room downstairs, gone upstairs (according to Bridget ONLY) and then come back down to sit in the room she had just vacated, with that object you describe.

[Edit here:]  Here's the parcel:..It is when he came home she calls it a parcel.  It is when he *returns* downstairs to sit that she see's him with papers/book.
Prelim.
Bridget
78+
Q.  When he came in, did he have anything in his hand?
A.  A parcel.
Q.  A white parcel?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Any key or brass lock in his hand?
A.  I did not notice it.
Q.  Did one hand seem to be free, and the other to have a package in it?
A.  I did not notice, only that he had a little package.
Q.  He sat down in the dining room?
A.  Yes Sir.

So that is 3 people who see the parcel, thanks.[End edit]

Harry and I did an experiment and he folded his local newspaper (10 pages) and it fit the dimensions that Mrs. Kelly noted...but Augusta had argued that the pkg. was described as *white* and she didn't think a folded newspaper at a distance of (say) 6 feet would appear white.

Back to Speculation:
Maybe it was a package that EMMA was expecting, and Lizzie got desparate and acted, to protect Emma from being found out.
If Emma was out-of-town when they all fell sick, then maybe Emma had spiked something the household used infrequently and it happened to be Tuesday that they got that dose.
Poisoners DO like to be away when their victims get it.

(Message last edited Jan-13th-03  8:08 PM.)


13. "Re:   Speaking of Poison--AHA!"
Posted by Susan on Jan-13th-03 at 8:59 PM
In response to Message #12.

Thanks, Kat, for posting all that.  Hmmm, Emmer receiving a package while she was away that contained something damning, perhaps thats where the note that was torn up in the kitchen waste basket came from, it was addressed to an Emma?  Dear Miss Emma, here is the (fill in with the poison of your choice) you requested.  We hope you make good use of it.  Yours truly, Poison Co. Inc.

But, wasn't Lizzie the only one who said that Andrew went to the post office that morning and witness' state that he was never there?  If that is the case, where did this mysterious parcel come from, something from one of his bank deposit boxes? 


14. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by william on Jan-14th-03 at 12:47 PM
In response to Message #12.

Joseph Shortsleeves, a carpenter, was working in Cleggs store when Andrew arrived:

Trial Testimony (p.177-8)

Q. "He came into the front door, went to the back part of the store,
picked up a lock that had been on the front store door.  It was all broken to pieces.  He looked at it, laid it down again, went upstairs, then went from the back part of the shop up to the front part of the shop upstairs up over our head; was there a few minutes, and came down again and picked the lock up and walked out."

(Whew! With all of that activity, no wonder Andrew had to take a nap when he went home!)


15. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Kat on Jan-14th-03 at 4:35 PM
In response to Message #14.

I have a whole 'nother theory on the lock.
But I don't think it was the white package.

Susan, I'm not sure that we have *negative witnesses* as to whether Andrew visited the P.O. that day?  Could that be Lincoln?

But yea, he could have picked up the package anywhere just before the first witness notices it..just before he headed home, supposedly, tho I recall her time is off  (whose wasn't?).

If he got it at other than the P.O., which we should consider, then it could be something he *stashed* until that day.  It could have come earlier in the week and he was retrieving it that day.
I am only *reaching* here, because I am purely speculating.
Emma maybe was due home very soon and he wanted to confront her with it?

(Message last edited Jan-14th-03  4:41 PM.)


16. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Susan on Jan-15th-03 at 12:58 AM
In response to Message #15.

You are correct, no negative witness statements as to Andrew not being at the post office.  I checked through everything, Prelim, Witness Statements and the Trial and only found this in Trial Vol 2, page 1788/i812

"  Now we are getting around to the vicinity of this occurence, because Mr. Borden, as my distinguished friend has said, must have gone down town in the neighborhood of half past nine; for the first that is seen of him that is introduced here in evidence is his visit--possibly he went to the Post Office, which is on the way, and possibly he went around to inspect his tenement, which is almost on the way--but the first that is seen of him he appears at the bank where he was accustomed to be at half past nine in the morning."

Thats why I asked it as a question. Help, I've got Lincoln on the brain and can't get her off!!!  Now, I'm wondering if it was something that was printed in the papers at the time, oh well.  But, I like your theory having Emmer as the evil one, who possibly doses the family with poison before she leaves and assumes Lizzie will be out of the house in Marion when it happens.  Or, perhaps after she and Lizzie parted ways she may have whispered to Lizzie not to eat any of the whatever in the house.....or not.  Do you think its possible that there may have been some hate mixed in with Emma's love for Lizzie?

And then Andrew finds out whats going on and tells John Morse, hence Lizzie being annoyed by their voices the night before, annoyed because they found out Emmer's evil plan and that fool wife of his ran across the street and blabbed it to that fool Bowen after he told her to keep her mouth shut about it?!  Lizzie realizes whats in store for Emmer when she gets home and decides to do some fancy footwork herself with a hatchet when she can't procure poison herself. 

It would definitely add a whole new twist to the murders, give Lizzie an added incentive to do away with Andrew and Abby. 


17. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by harry on Jan-15th-03 at 8:22 AM
In response to Message #16.

I searched the Evening Standard paper for "post office" re Andrew and found the following:

In the Aug. 11, 1892 issue:

"....With the exception of the points mentioned, the manner in which every member of the Borden household passed his or her time on the fatal morning has been published.  After breakfast Andrew J. Borden went to the post office, mailed a letter for Miss Lizzie, visited a couple of banks, talked with several persons on the street and returned at about eight minutes of 11.  At 13 minutes after 11 the murder was announced.  John Morse left the house and took a car for Weybosset street...."

Obviously the time for Andrew's arrival home at 8 minutes to 11 is incorrect. That would too severely narrow the time for the murder to occur. 

This also ties in with Kat's find of Morse taking a car to visit his niece.

(Message last edited Jan-15th-03  8:27 AM.)


18. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by William on Jan-15th-03 at 9:26 AM
In response to Message #15.

. . . or maybe it was just pieces of an old lock, wrapped in paper. . .


19. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Susan on Jan-15th-03 at 11:44 AM
In response to Message #17.

Thank you for finding that Harry!  So, if Andrew did go to the post office, who knows what may have came?  I had just read William's post and a thought about that did occur, Andrew was possibly at the post office, perhaps he bought some paper wrappers or envelopes.  Finds the old broken lock, picks it up, its dirty and greasy, would he have just thrown it in his pocket?  Or, wrap it in paper and then put it in his pocket?  I've never really thought about that lock much before until today. 


20. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by rays on Jan-15th-03 at 1:05 PM
In response to Message #16.

I remember reading that Lizzie asked Andy if there was any mail for her when he returned home around 11AM. Ergo, he must have visited the Post Office. No mail delivery in those days?

Isn't this question likely today if someone returns home?


21. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Kat on Jan-15th-03 at 5:26 PM
In response to Message #20.

Really, Harry, that was a good find!
Susan, have you read the newspapers, or did you just happen to be there?  I don't know how you guys thought of the newspapers.  Those are good discoveries you guys.
I can't rule out the lock, except it was not mentioned as being found at the house.
I was thinking along the lines of whatever was in the pkg. as being destroyed because pkg. also is not mentioned again as being in the house..tho they obviously knew to look for it.  I suppose it could have been suppressed, whatever it was....

I figured that since that lock was from Andrew's own store door rental property, and since he carried a lot of keys (found on his body), that he would pick up that lock, find HIS key that fit it, and then either throw both away, or save the key apart somehow to differentiate it from his useful keys, and have it re-ground to fit the new lock they were installing that day. 
I don't know if a key can be adapted for another use, but I thought I would leave that determination open to someone who may know.

I thought if it were me, and I had a bunch of keys, and I was methodical and dealt with things as they came up, then Andrew would want to immediately dispose of one useless key as soon as possible, so as not to confuse them.
It could have waited until he got home, that's true, tho somehow, for no reason, I picture Andrew pausing on the way home , finding the key that fit the now-useless lock and then just tossing them away like litter.
BUT:
Prelim.
Mrs. Kelly
212
Q.  You say he had a white package in his hand?
A.  I think he had a little square white package.
Q.  Did it look as though it might be a letter, or something like that?
A.  No, it was bigger, looked as though it might be a small box.
Q.  It looked like a small box?
A.  Yes Sir.
(Mr. Knowlton.)  Give me the size of that package or box as near as you can.
A.  It might have been five inches square, and perhaps an inch thick, as near as I can remember; it was wider than that book. (Note book.)
Q.  Something that shape?
A.  No Sir, it was square, about that square.
Q.  Something that shape?
A.  Yes Sir, but a little wider, as far as I can remember.

If I picture Not a YALE type lock which would be deep, but  more of  possibly like a Panel of say, brass, that has a keyhole in it, about the depth of the door, would that still be in the size range?

But Oh William, if it was poison addressed to Emma and as Susan says she thinks Lizzie will be at Marion, and somehow Lizzie knows to intercept the package and destroy it so she returns on Tuesday July 26th and keeps an eye out for it?
That is more mysterious than a lock.
But anyway can someone describe to me what a *store door lock* of 1892  would look like?

And Yes Ray, that is one of the first things I ask every day, any mail?


(Message last edited Jan-15th-03  5:28 PM.)


22. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Carol on Jan-15th-03 at 5:34 PM
In response to Message #20.

Lizzie's Inquest testimony: About the letter Lizzie wrote to Emma

Q: When was the last time you wrote to her?
A: Thursday morning, and my father mailed the letter for me.
(That means he must have gone to the post office Thursday a.m.)
Q: Did she get it at Fairhaven?
A: No sir, it was sent back. She did not get it at Fairhaven, for we telegraphed for her, and she got home here Thursday afternoon, and the letter was sent back to this post office.

Wouldn't this comprise some proof that Andrew went to the post office?
Or is Lizzie again lying?  Why need she lie about this?


23. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Susan on Jan-15th-03 at 10:00 PM
In response to Message #21.

Kat, locks of that time period were either mounted on the door, such as this model.
, measurements given are 7" long by 4 1/2" wide, which would have been too big to put in a pocket, I think.

Then there are locks which actually slip into a slot or hole made in the side of the door that the whole contraption is slipped into, like this model.  Its called a mortise lock.


This is what the lock case looks like that is slipped into the mortise, these come in a variety of sizes, this particular model is 6" long, by 4" wide.  Almost about the size of the book or package that Andrew had in his hand.  Didn't one of the containers in the barn, box or basket, contain like old doorknobs and possibly locks?


Carol, I was reading your post and I was thinking, how could Lizzie have had Andrew mail a letter when she wasn't up before he left?  Lizzie says she gave it to Andrew to mail out Thursday morning, she also said he was around the house until like 10:00 A.M. or so before he left, yet, he was sighted at the bank at "half past nine".  If she finished the letter the night before and left it somewhere for Andrew to find and mail it out, thats a different story.  Yet, she says that she gave it to him Thursday morning to mail out.  Hmmm. 


(Message last edited Jan-15th-03  10:23 PM.)


24. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Kat on Jan-15th-03 at 10:54 PM
In response to Message #23.

Lizzie did see Andrew.
She said she *spoke to them all*, meaning Abby and Andrew.
Not Morse tho.  HE was gone when she got up.
I was thinking, if one of our Interviewees said that Lizzie slept late, or at the least that she stayed in her room usually until about 10 a.m., then why on this particular day was she actually up early?
5 of 9 is early for her.
Did she plan on getting downstairs with that letter After Morse left but BEFORE Andrew left?
Sounds like it was planned.
AND if she is not lying and she did write it Thursday morning, (Which I always believed) then she would have been up since 8 a.m. maybe ..as early as that, to get that letter ready.
That is not her normal M.O., that we have been led to believe.
[Hint here:  I do have 2 sources that say Lizzie stayed upstairs late in the morning, so if it is doubted, anyone may look them up]
Morse ALWAYS goes to the Post Office.
Why not hand it to him ?


25. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Susan on Jan-16th-03 at 2:04 AM
In response to Message #24.

I'm sorry, I was always under the impression that Andrew was gone before Lizzie came down to her breakfast, my bad.

It sounds as though Lizzie avoids and avoided Morse at all costs, he did seem to have a fixation with the post office and she could have given the letter to him.  Yes, it does sound as though Lizzie was up early for her, what could have been so pressing in that letter that she needed it to be sent out that day? 

(Message last edited Jan-16th-03  2:05 AM.)


26. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Carol on Jan-16th-03 at 4:25 PM
In response to Message #25.

"...what could have been so pressing in that letter that she needed it to be sent out that day?"

My take would be that she had just come back from a disturbing night out with Alice Russell, in which she talked about being distressed about a good many things. She gets home and goes to her room. She has a writing table/chest there. She cannot go to sleep as these things are on her mind. So she writes to Emma, who has been in the past a mother figure for her, about her evening or her distressed conversation with Alice. After she has done this, she feels better having told or discussed the problems over with two people. Of course, we don't know what was in the letter, but I believe it was established that the post office did send it back unopened.

She takes the letter downstairs with her the next morning and gives it to her father to mail. She doesn't give it to Morse because most likely he is gone by the time she goes down and besides, it appears from the testimony that she is blocking him out or not acknowledging his presence.

     


27. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Kat on Jan-16th-03 at 5:20 PM
In response to Message #26.

Inquest
Lizzie
56+
Q. When was the last time you wrote to her?
A. Thursday morning, and my father mailed the letter for me.

Lizzie says, literally, that she wrote Thursday morning.  I have believed her.
What's to *interpret* here--why would you say it was Wednesday night?
The contents is an interesting theory.  I hadn't thought much about what was in the letter.
I wonder if the news to Emma would be substantionally different if written Wednesday night (she mis-represents when she wrote?) as compared to Thursday morning?
The info as to the returned letter was good, thanks...

I forgot, Susan, to thank you for the locks!
I do appreciate it.
I think the last one (Mortise) looks like what I finally envisioned.
If someone has actual knowlede of shop locks c.1892, could they give their impression, too.?



(Message last edited Jan-16th-03  5:24 PM.)


28. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Susan on Jan-17th-03 at 3:17 AM
In response to Message #26.

It just seems such an odd coincidence that Lizzie has a letter to send out to Emma the day of the murders, I realize it can be just that, a coincidence.  But, if she was planning on murdering her parents that day, woo, what a weird way to start the day out.  Hmmm, perhaps it was given to Andrew to keep him downtown longer, he'd have to make the extra trip to the post office, unless that was a regular stop of his on his way to work everyday?

Thats sounds like a good possibility for what was in Lizzie's letter, I have always been curious what was contained in that letter since it was written on or just before the murder day.



You're welcome, Kat.  Those particular locks are reproductions of late 1800s locks.  I worked in an old building once that still had the original front door with the original mortise lock in it, the key was missing, so, it wasn't used.  A new lock, the round cylinder kind was just above it, thats what we used to lock up. 


29. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Edisto on Jan-17th-03 at 8:51 PM
In response to Message #28.

One thing to remember is that people in the 1890s relied on the mails much more than we do today.  That's probably because most folks didn't have telephones, and the transportation was slower than it is today.  I was reading in "Victorian Vistas" the other night that the postmen (this was about 1910 in Fall River) walked their routes in the middle of the night to make sure the mail got delivered on time.  Lizzie might have written to Emma quite often - even daily.  I have wondered why the police weren't interested in the contents of that letter that was mailed to Emma and later returned to Lizzie.  At the very least, it might have reflected Lizzie's state of mind on the night of August 3 and the morning of August 4, whenever she wrote it.  If the police had gotten really lucky, it might have said something like, "Don't worry.  After tomorrow, everything will be ours.  Have your bags packed to come home."  I'm supposing that letter went right into the kitchen range when it arrived back.  Of course, if Lizzie had planned the crime for August 4, it's rather peculiar that she wrote to Emma at that time, since she had to know Emma would be summoned home.  A ploy to throw the police off the scent?


30. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Kat on Jan-17th-03 at 10:10 PM
In response to Message #29.

Yes, you're right to point out how people relied upon the mail.
When I read how quickly letters got delivered, it's much faster than now.  The Knowlton letters are an example.

I had thought it was a ruse to get Andrew out of the house.
He had been sick since Tuesday night and passed up a ride to Swansea just the day before, Wednesday.
Lizzie may have figured that asking him to post a letter was an unsuspicious, everyday-type request that would motivate Andrew to take a walk, and that's why she didn't ask Morse.
I thought a dutiful daughter, who was solicitus of her father's health, might offer herself to go to the P.O...but No...


31. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Carol on Jan-18th-03 at 2:38 PM
In response to Message #27.

People do not always mean all they say nor say all they mean. How do you know that just because she says she wrote to her Thursday morning that she did not start the letter Wed. night and complete it, sign her name and seal the envelope on Thursday morning, making it Thursday that she completed writing it, therefore she said Thursday morning?

People don't usually give extreme detail in answering questions. She most likely wouldn't have said "I started the letter Wed. night and finished it, or at least put it in the envelope and sealed it Thursday morning..." instead she might just have said what she did say in answer to the question, "Thursday morning." However, it could be that she DID do the entire project of letter writing after she woke up.  In which case that would be the literal interpretation, your interpretation. I don't know which is right. But like the lock situation, we all have ideas on whether the lock was or wasn't in the white paper Andrew was carrying or whether it was a book or whatever, we each interpret what the "parcel" was. The word parcel doesn't just sit there like a slug, we wonder.

I have wondered why the police didn't confiscate the letter when it was sent back or ask to see it or if they did why that wasn't noted somewhere. Why wouldn't the police have not thought that a major deal?  Maybe they just didn't know about it until it was too late?  Maybe it was like the letter that Lizzie's friend received from her, when she was asked by the police to see it she was advised by an attorney that she needn't show it to them if she didn't want to so she didn't. 

Were there ball point pens then?  Would Lizzie have used a pen and ink type tool? 


32. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Kat on Jan-18th-03 at 3:57 PM
In response to Message #31.

Well I don't see the comparison because on the one hand we have Lizzie herself saying she last wrote on Thursday.  Period.
In the other we have an interesting package seen in the hand of Andrew and we do believe it is in the hand of Andrew, but we speculate as to what might be in this mysterious box.
Not the same thing, really.


33. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Susan on Jan-18th-03 at 4:28 PM
In response to Message #31.

Lizzie may have used a fountain pen, the kind that stores the ink in a cartridge.  First official ball point pen was invented in 1938.  Heres what I found:

A Hungarian journalist named Ladislo Biro, invented the first ballpoint pen in 1938. Biro had noticed that the type of ink used in newspaper printing dried quickly, leaving the paper dry and smudge-free. He decided to create a pen using the same type of ink. The thicker ink would not flow from a regular pen nib and Biro had to devise a new type of point. He did so by fitting his pen with a tiny ball bearing in its tip. As the pen moved along the paper, the ball rotated picking up ink from the ink cartridge and leaving it on the paper. This principle of the ballpoint pen actually dates back to an 1888 patent owned by John J. Loud for a product to mark leather. However, this patent was commercially unexploited. Biro first patented his pen in 1938, and applied for a fresh patent in Argentina on June 10, 1943. (Ladislo and his brother Georg emigrated to Argentina in 1940.) The British Government bought the licensing rights to this patent for the war effort. The British Royal Air Force needed a new type of pen, one that would not leak at higher altitudes in fighter planes as the fountain pen did. Their successful performance for the Air Force brought the Biro pens into the limelight. Biro had neglected to get a U.S. patent for his pen and so even with the ending of World War II, another battle was just beginning..

Historical Outline - The Battle of Ballpoint Pens

The first pen-writing instrument was the quill pen dipped into dark paint. There became a need to lengthen the time between dips, eliminate splatter, eliminate smearing and improve pen handling.

1800's: The first designs for pens that could hold their own ink patented.
1884: L.E. Waterman, a New York City insurance salesman, designed the first workable fountain pen, the fountain pen becomes the predominant writing instrument for the next sixty years. Four fountain pen manufactures dominate the market: Parker, Sheaffer, Waterman and Wahl-Eversharp.
1938: Invention of a ballpoint pen by two Hungarian inventors, Ladislo and George Biro. The brothers both worked on the pen and applied for patents in 1938 and 1940. The new-formed Eterpen Company in Argentina commercialized the Biro pen. The press hailed the success of this writing tool because it could write for a year without refilling.
May 1945: Eversharp Co. teams up with Eberhard-Faber to acquire the exclusive rights to Biro Pens of Argentina. The pen re-branded the "Eversharp CA" which stood for Capillary Action. Released to the press months in advance of public sales.
June, 1945: Less than a month after Eversharp/Eberhard close the deal with Eterpen, Chicago businessman, Milton Reynolds visits Buenos Aires. While in a store, he sees the Biro pen and recognizes the pen's sales potential. He buys a few pens as samples. Reynolds returns to America and starts the Reynolds International Pen Company, ignoring Eversharp's patent rights.
October 29, 1945: Reynolds copies the product in four months and sells his product Reynold's Rocket at Gimbel's department store in New York City. Reynolds' imitation beats Eversharp to market. Reynolds' pen is immediately successful: Priced at $12.50, $100,000 worth sold the first day on the market.
December, 1945: Britain was not far behind with the first ballpoint pens available to the public sold at Christmas by the Miles-Martin Pen company.

From the site http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa101697.htm



(Message last edited Jan-18th-03  4:31 PM.)


34. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Carol on Jan-19th-03 at 1:26 PM
In response to Message #32.

The information on the pens was interesting Susan. I think I have seen the Biro name on pens at the store today, or my imagination is working overtime.  The price on a good pen is about the same, $12.-- and up from there, but regular ballpoints now are so cheap to make people give them away as promotions or you can buy them a six for real cheap. I use the Italic Sharpie felt tip myself because I like the point.

"Well I don't see the comparison because on the one hand we have Lizzie herself saying she last wrote on Thursday.  Period..."

My point is it is hard to know what people mean by what they say, and our interpretation of them isn't always accurate because statements are simple.

I, too, take words literally at times. Here's an example of what I am talking about. Put aside for the moment my thought that Lizzie might have written on Wed. nite and finished up on Thursday morning.

Now, here is another scenario.  Lizzie comes home Wed. eve agitated at having unburdened herself to Alice.  She goes to bed.  She is still worried and can't sleep.  She gets up after midnight and goes to her writing table.  She pens a letter to Emma telling her of her concerns and that she has just seen Alice. She writes the envelope, seals it and goes back to bed.

Since it is after midnight when she wrote the letter, that makes it Thursday morning. What a person such as yourself normally would assume is that she meant she wrote the letter Thursday after she got up from her complete night of sleep,i.e. her normal waking hour for dressing.  But a literal interpretation, as I have shown, does not necessarily mean that. Thursday morning could mean 2 things.

"In the other we have an interesting package seen in the hand of Andrew and we do believe it is in the hand of Andrew, but we speculate as to what might be in this mysterious box.
Not the same thing, really."

What "box"? Words are tough, aren't they?


35. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Kat on Jan-19th-03 at 3:10 PM
In response to Message #34.

I was expecting an after-midnight reply.
That is sensible to me.
Now, is there a question that what was written could be substantionally different IF written Wednesday nite (after mid-night?) or if written Thursday morning as a ruse?


36. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Kat on Jan-19th-03 at 6:23 PM
In response to Message #35.

Excuse me please, I hadn't finished my post.
The PlayOff's had just started.

Anyway, here we see in Mrs. Kelly's testimony at Prelim., pg.212, where she first calls what Andrew has in his hand, a "small white package."
Then after a few questions about it, without anyone suggesting the word "box" to her, she says " it might be a small box."
It seems to be the first time the description "box" is used.
(I had thought I posted that bit of testimony, Post #21, here).

To re-cap for all:
We see that Mary Gallagher, in the Witness Statements, pg. 10 says she saw Andrew with a "Package", at Main & Spring.

Bridget, at the Prelim., 78, first, on her own, calls it a "Parcel"...then it is suggested in questioning as a "Package", at which point Bridget then refers to it as a "Package".

Mrs. Kelly at Prelim., 212, "small white package" on it's own becomes "small box"...then SHE has Knowlton calling it a "Box" twice after that.
-------------
Now the question is, what does Lizzie see, and what does she call it?  Or does she see it?
---
Also, I think a comparison could be made between what we might speculate is in the box, and what we might speculate was written in the letter.
-----------
And, Susan, a bit of news:  Your reference to papers in Andrew's hand is in the Witness Statements, referred to by Bridget, pg. 3.
From that cite it is hard to tell if she is referring to that which Andrew had in his hand when she let him in.
So if that was your source, you were not wrong...but it is an incomplete idea that she gives us. 
---------
Tampa Bay is going to the Super Bowl in San Diego!!!!!!!!

(Message last edited Jan-19th-03  6:34 PM.)


37. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Susan on Jan-19th-03 at 8:29 PM
In response to Message #36.

Thanks for all the info, Kat.  Except for the Super Bowl news, good revenue for the city of San Diego, bad for residents like me that will have to deal with the traffic and crazyness. 


38. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Carol on Jan-20th-03 at 3:09 PM
In response to Message #35.

The conclusion from the witnesses then was what Andrew had in his hand was a small and white either a parcel, package or "might be a box."

The object in his hand was white, the whiteness was paper I believe, so the paper either covered a container (box) or items (parcel, package) not in a box.  Whatever it was the police didn't seem to think it was as important or didn't know about it as of possible importance as the attorney's did later or whatever it was would have been taken into evidence that week-end.

That what Lizzie wrote in her letter to Emma contained something of emotional interest to her is my suspicion, because it was written after she expressed such concerns to Alice, whether she wrote it in the wee hours of Thursday morning or after she finally woke for the day. I can't see her just talking about trivialities unless that was some sort of code.  Would Lizzie have been as dull as to have written to Emma that she expected to dispatch the old folks that day? Any other thoughts on what might have been in the letter?




39. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Kat on Jan-28th-03 at 8:04 PM
In response to Message #21.

I found a description of the lock Andrew picked up:

Preliminary Hearing
James Mather
pg. 234

"A Yale lock"
"A brass bolt and brass springs inside."


40. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by bobcook848 on Jan-29th-03 at 2:31 PM
In response to Message #39.

But whatever became of that lock......??

BC


41. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Kat on Jan-29th-03 at 5:37 PM
In response to Message #40.

Since Mrs. Kelly saw Andrew walking to the front door as if coming around from the side of the house, maybe he tossed it into the barn first?


42. "Re: lockslockslockslocks"
Posted by kimberly on Jan-29th-03 at 9:01 PM
In response to Message #39.

http://www.collectible-treasures.com/catalog/items/item445.htm
http://www.goantiques.com/texis,old_yale_lock,3db9df3e14.html
http://www.northstar.k12.ak.us/schools/ryn/projects/inventors/yale/yale.html
http://www.lockmuseum.com/about.htm
http://patentmuseum.com/ebayhtmls/yale.html


43. "Re: lockslockslockslocks"
Posted by Kat on Jan-29th-03 at 9:45 PM
In response to Message #42.



Since This is Yale, and these are Yale locks, I suppose it would look like one of these 4?
Thanks Kimberly.


44. "Re: lockslockslockslocks"
Posted by kimberly on Jan-29th-03 at 10:06 PM
In response to Message #43.

I had always pictured him picking up a plain old lock & I never
thought about how many other kinds of locks there are. Funny he
came home with a lock & Lizzie was just out in the barn looking
for a piece of iron. Maybe she got the idea from him? If it was
a big lock I could picture him wrapping it up to keep the oil &
dirt off him. So many odd things going on that day.


45. "Re: Speaking of Poison"
Posted by kimberly on Jan-29th-03 at 10:24 PM
In response to Message #11.

I've been re-reading these posts & just noticed this one
was directed at me, sorry I didn't ever answer you Ray,
thank you for being concerned but I'm not planning on
ridding the world of me yet. I don't think I'm the suicide
type --- and they don't make any painless/foolproof methods.
Most are very disfiguring, especially if you survive.


The source of my nightmares turned out to be a guy who was
too good to be true --- at the start (early this month/January,
I met him just before Christmas)
he seemed to be perfect but I still couldn't stand him for some reason.
The nightmares started & then I began to see his true
colors and I really think I dodged a bullet, a *very* unstable guy.
I'm so glad I did have a funny feeling about him, perhaps I might have
indeed been left somewhere.


(Message last edited Jan-29th-03  10:29 PM.)


46. "Re: Speaking of Poison"
Posted by rays on Jan-30th-03 at 4:07 PM
In response to Message #45.

Don't even think about it!!! Suicide is permanent, troubles or mood swings are not.

But I read that in Europe, "gun free zones", old people who want to end it all (??) go up on top of high buildings, then jump onto the people or cars below. It is not publicized here, or maybe I was misinformed.

Suicide is wrong (Christians and others). It is also true that many with "incurable cancer" will do this. Read about Melvin Purvis (lead the FBI team that caught Dillinger).

(Message last edited Jan-30th-03  4:08 PM.)


47. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by bobcook848 on Jan-31st-03 at 12:21 PM
In response to Message #41.

Maybe "it" was really a doorknob not a brass lock and that was the doorknob Lizzie referenced?  Getting spookie....

BC


48. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Susan on Jan-31st-03 at 8:16 PM
In response to Message #41.

Thats what I've always wondered, if perhaps Andrew just dumped it in the barn in that box or basket of stuff?  Lizzie did say something about old doorknobs and such being in there, why not a broken lock?  It was probably greasy and dirty and I can't imagine Abby (if she was still alive) wanting such a thing laying around the house.  Perhaps Andrew the was the main reason why Andrew tried to get into the side door of the house, because he was dropping off the broken lock in the barn. 


49. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Edisto on Jan-31st-03 at 8:43 PM
In response to Message #41.

But didn't Mrs. Kelly see Andrew coming from the back of the Borden lot, but with the package still in his hand?  If that's the case, he probably didn't dump it in the barn.  Also, her description and Bridget's don't sound as if the item was a lock, unless Andrew managed to both box and wrap it.  I've always wondered if Andrew didn't simply pick up that broken lock because he was a tidy soul and didn't like seeing trash on the floor.  In that case, he might have deep-sixed the lock as soon as he came to a handy trash can.  IMHO, it's more likely that the item in his hand was something he received in the mail.  When Lizzie later asked him if there was any mail, I believe he responded that there was none for Lizzie.  That sounds as if there was mail but none for her.  I believe Andrew was seen reading prior to lying down for his last nap.  Maybe he got a package in the mail that turned out to be a small book.  He glanced at it briefly and put it aside for later.  It seems that the police never concerned themselves with the package and its contents, so they could have overlooked a small book among the others in the sitting room.  The wrapping paper could have gone into the kitchen range.  (Wouldn't it have been interesting if the package had contained a book entitled, "How to Prepare Your Own Will"?)


50. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Kat on Feb-1st-03 at 12:26 AM
In response to Message #49.

Way to go, Edisto!

That is sensible-sounding.

I had never thought the parcel and the lock were the same items, anyway.
But if it was known he picked up the lock, and people wanted to know why the lock was not found in the house, I just thought maybe he could have ditched it before he got home or in the barn.

The package could very well be a book as that would blend in to the surroundings easily.


51. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by rays on Feb-1st-03 at 12:48 PM
In response to Message #50.

A "white box" would not hold a lock; didn't it come from the bank?
Brass has a scrap value; trust Andy to not overlook anything.
Also, a padlock in the fist can serve to hit harder.


52. "Re:   Andrew's Package"
Posted by Carol on Feb-1st-03 at 1:19 PM
In response to Message #49.

"Thats what I've always wondered, if perhaps Andrew just dumped it in the barn in that box or basket of stuff?  Lizzie did say something about old doorknobs and such being in there, why not a broken lock?"

Andrew might well have gone to the barn the put the lock he picked up in it before he tried the back screen door to get in.  But Lizzie said she didn't look through what was in the box on the ground floor of the barn, just the box/basket in the loft that morning. That doesn't mean to say that there might not have been doorknobs or locks in both and the police just didn't list them.

"Also, her description and Bridget's don't sound as if the item was a lock, unless Andrew managed to both box and wrap it."

In Fleets Witness testimony posted elsewhere on this forum he says that Bridget saw Andrew come in, go to the dining room window and read something that was in his hand. This might be what he brought in wrapped in the white paper or something he got from the post office.

"I've always wondered if Andrew didn't simply pick up that broken lock because he was a tidy soul and didn't like seeing trash on the floor."

Yes, but he was in a store at the time that was under construction so there was most likely a lot more refuse on the floor and about the area such as on construction sites.

What was in the white parcel might have been from the post office or from one of the banks he visited and he might have taken it up and put it in the safe. No one has ever published a list of what was in the safe and that was something that must have been known by those who broke it open. Where is that information?  



 

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