Consciousness of Innocence

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irina
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Consciousness of Innocence

Post by irina »

In Vincent Bugliosi's book "The Sea Will Tell" he defines consciousness of innocence and consciousness of guilt. I thought these were legal definitions but I can't find them in my copy of "Black's Law Dictionary". As I understand Bugliosi's definition, consciousness of innocence has to do with things an innocent person does because they know they are innocent, regardless of appearances. In the book mentioned he explained how this concept helped him to know the woman he defended was innocent and worthy of his efforts. In honour of Franz' return today I thought it would be interesting to start this thread about Lizzie~and of course one for consciousness of guilt for everyone else. :cyclopsani:

Did Lizzie show consciousness of innocence of the crime, not just at the time but later in life? A number of things I can think of can be taken either way and that is part of the problem with this case.

l) Burning the dress without taking precautions to make sure no one could see. She was obviously observed by Miss Russell~and Emma, though I believe Emma would have covered for her no matter what.

2) Having difficulty in testimony over the word cordial. Good heavens! She was accused of killing her step-mother and faced a terrible punishment if convicted. For the sake of self-preservation why wouldn't she just say "yes"~that her relations with Abby were "cordial"?

3) Lizzie's middle name was Andrew, her father's name. Later in life she adopted Lizbeth but kept Andrew for her middle name. Unless the cosmetic compact with her initials pre-dates the murders, she continued to use three initials: LAB. As I understand her pre-planning for her death, she chose the name Andrews for her grave marker(?) so that her grave would not be defiled. She could have chosen anything but she chose a variation of her father's name.

4) She continued to live the rest of her life in Fall River under very difficult circumstances.

5) Calling Bridget so soon after Andrew's death (discovery). If guilty, why not take more time, leave the premises, etc. I know we have discussed this from different points of view but it could be consciousness of innocence.

6) Asking Mrs. Churchill to come right over. Lizzie could have had an extra look in the mirror to make sure there wasn't a blood spot somewhere but instead she eagerly invites people to come over.

I can think of a number of other points. I'm sure others can too. In fairness we also need a consciousness of guilt thread.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by Franz »

Thank you very much, Irina, :smile: but unfortunately my return this time is only temporary. I will be free from my work only in at least one month.

In general I agree with what you said in this thread. I posted several times about the courage of Lizzie in front of the aggressive Knowlton: if she were guilty (with consciousness of guilt, she might have been much more prudent when answering to those crucial and dangerous questions of Knowlton.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by debbiediablo »

Possum has said this multiple times and I have said it a few: people cannot be judged by their behavior in the hours and even days after traumatic experience. For every person who falls to pieces, there's another who reacts with stoicism. Some throw themselves into the process of making life right again; others crawl away to hide, sometimes forever. There's no telling how anyone (including each of us) would respond to finding our father hacked to death with a hatchet and then finding our step-mother upstairs, killed the same way. That said, I'm not sure Lizzie was like everyone else. IF she was guilty then she was a psychopath. (IMO, and I don't have a PhD in psychology or clinical notes to make that diagnosis, but we have run her through Hare's checklist before...:-) Psychopaths are fearless, bold, lacking in remorse, dishonest, cunning, manipulative, impulsive and often live a parasitic lifestyle. Psychopaths don't have consciousness of guilt or consciousness of innocence.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by Curryong »

As you know, I don't believe Lizzie innocent. I suppose if I were to choose a surprising incident I would go for a morsel that wasn't allowed at the trial. A friend, giving evidence for the defence, (can't remember who) wanted to tell about Lizzie crying before the funeral upon seeing her father in his coffin and kissing him as he lay there.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

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Curryong wrote:As you know, I don't believe Lizzie innocent. I suppose if I were to choose a surprising incident I would go for a morsel that wasn't allowed at the trial. A friend, giving evidence for the defence, (can't remember who) wanted to tell about Lizzie crying before the funeral upon seeing her father in his coffin and kissing him as he lay there.
I agree, Curryong. BTW, it was Mrs. Holmes who testified about the kiss. but did not say anything about her crying. Perhaps that part was in Victoria Lincoln's book. ???

On Sun Jun 18, 2006, Harry posted: …

The "kiss" testimony at the trial involves Mrs. Holmes. On page 1505, Jennings is questioning her:

Q. Before the funeral began did Miss Lizzie go down to see her father's remains?

MR. KNOWLTON. Wait a minute. I pray your Honors' judgment.
MASON, C. J. Assuming the question to be preliminary only, it may be answered.

A. She did.
Q. Where were they?
A. In the sitting room.
Q. Were they in the casket?
A. They were.
Q. Prepared for burial?
A. They were.
Q. Both bodies in the same room?
A. They were.
Q. What did Miss Lizzie do after she went down into the room?

MR. KNOWLTON. Pray your Honors' judgment

(Question excluded)"

There was a 5 minute recess taken after Mrs. Holmes finished her testimony and I assume the defense made some sort of motion because they were allowed to submit an offer of proof (page 1511):

"The following is the offer of proof made by the defence in connection with the evidence of Mrs. Holmes:

"The government in its direct case having shown conduct of defendant up to and including the morning of Sunday following the murder, the defendant offers to show by a witness that on Saturday morning after the murder she came down stairs into the room where her father's body was lying prepared for burial, and went to the casket with the witness and kissed her father."


Also on Sun Jun 18, 2006, Harry posted this:

I looked up the legal definition of an "offer of proof" and found this:

http://tinyurl.com/jbwjg

"At trial, a party’s explanation to a judge as to how a proposed line of questioning, or a certain item of physical evidence, would be relevant to its case and admissible under the rules of evidence. Offers of proof arise when a party begins a line of questioning that the other side objects to as calling for irrelevant or inadmissible information. If the judge thinks that the questions might lead to proper evidence, the judge will stop the trial, ask the parties to “approach the bench,” and give the questioner a chance to show how, if allowed, the expected answers will be both relevant and admissible. This explanation is usually presented out of the jury’s hearing, but it does become part of the trial record. If the matter is later heard on appeal, the appellate court will use the record to decide whether the judge’s ruling was correct."

So even if the jury didn't hear it, it was part of the trial record and available to the authors. I also found the "kiss" mentioned in Lincoln.


Source: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2035
Last edited by twinsrwe on Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by Curryong »

Thank you, twinrwe! It's remarkable how often I forget about the identity of Marianna Holmes! I have read that Lizzie cried when she saw her father somewhere. It may have been the imaginative Miss Lincoln, but I was sure it was somewhere else, perhaps on an earlier thread, as I do think Victoria's book is full of atmosphere about earlier Fall River society but a bit slippery on some facts, so I haven't trusted her over-much.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by irina »

What a beautiful and well researched comment, Twinsarewe. I hadn't thought of the kiss. That's why I started this thread. I'm curious what everyone will come up with from their perspective and knowledge. In fairness I started the other thread "Consciousness of Guilt" for folks who see only guilt, or for people like me who believe we need open minds until someone provides absolute proof one way or the other. It's possible we might get new understanding of the case by investigating these aspects.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by debbiediablo »

Lizzie's laughter was a bit juvenile (cows, cursing, policemen who are fashionistas) but laughing at Bridget who is swearing at the lock is odd for someone who recently responsible for the bludgeoned body in the next room. Of course, Lizzie WAS odd...the whole Borden family was odd...but still still.... :-?
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by irina »

Lots has been written about Lizzie laughing while Bridget struggled with the door. Many writers would have us believe Lizzie was looking at Abby's body and enjoying her murderous work while also getting a chuckle from Bridget's discomfort that caused her to swear.

Like I wrote somewhere here before I have an idea Bridget use one of those colorful Irish curses that start, "Jaysus, Mary and St. Joseph..." I don't think it was "Pshaw" and I don't think it was, "Oh sh*t". It's possible is was a typically Irish cuss that most of us~and probably the Irish too~would find funny. Therefore Lizzie's laughter was likely very appropriate, provided she knew nothing of Abby's demise.

Also I will add a thought about psychopathy~psychopaths seem unable to feel empathy. The latest research even visualizes parts of the brain that are under developed or don't light up in psychopaths. If Lizzie was guilty because she was a psychopath, she would be unlikely to have been able to show empathy to animals and other people, then or ever. Certainly her later life shows the ability to feel empathy for animals and people and since evidences of this come from her private correspondence and will for example, her empathy was not just for public display.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by twinsrwe »

Curryong wrote:Thank you, twinrwe! It's remarkable how often I forget about the identity of Marianna Holmes!
You’re welcome.
Curryong wrote:… I have read that Lizzie cried when she saw her father somewhere. It may have been the imaginative Miss Lincoln, but I was sure it was somewhere else, perhaps on an earlier thread, as I do think Victoria's book is full of atmosphere about earlier Fall River society but a bit slippery on some facts, so I haven't trusted her over-much.
Here we go…

On Jun 18, 2006, myk7753 posted:

I found the passage...
Pg. 41

The passage was part of his narrative.

"In the sitting room, the coffins were displayed side by side. Lizzie, accompanied by Adelaide Churchil, had earlier come down from her room. She stood beside Andrew's bier for a silent minute, wept, and kissed him on the lips."

David Kent


Source: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2035

I found it ironic that this post was on the same page of the thread that I found the testimony of the kiss by Harry, only it was up further on the page! Jeeez!!! :roll:
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by twinsrwe »

irina wrote:What a beautiful and well researched comment, Twinsarewe. I hadn't thought of the kiss. That's why I started this thread. I'm curious what everyone will come up with from their perspective and knowledge. In fairness I started the other thread "Consciousness of Guilt" for folks who see only guilt, or for people like me who believe we need open minds until someone provides absolute proof one way or the other. It's possible we might get new understanding of the case by investigating these aspects.
Thank you, Irina. I think you had a great idea in regards to these two threads. Kudos to you! It should be interesting to see what the forum members come up with.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by phineas »

I read the Sea Will Tell and it's a marvelous book. The defendant in the case lied for reasons (if we believe she is not guilty) due to consciousness of guilt around another crime (a theft of a boat), not the murders in question. I find it plausible that Lizzie lied for reasons other than the obvious one at hand. (At least, I'll entertain this since I sadly believe she was probably guilty.) Call them innocent lies. While Franz's theory about the self-love in the barn is possible if not probable, I could also see another: Lizzie really wasn't supposed to be in the barn and invented a reason, then another reason, why she was there.

I was raised in a Yankee household and the very worst thing that we could do as children was be idle. Look at all the activity that morning of all the women...the only leisure is when Lizzie is leafing through magazines waiting for the flats to heat. If she had been raised to always, always be doing something worthwhile (basting tape on a garment, ironing) then that instinct to explain away idleness could kick in and make her look guilty when in fact, she was just trying to not look like she was slacking. Maybe the barn was her special retreat from the nutty household, but to admit going there for no purpose was out of her frame of reference so she invented two reasons...and even so, maybe both were true.

I've often started one thing, thought of another thing while I was doing it (well, I'm out here, I wonder if there's some metal for the screen) and if I had to say which thing I was doing, I'd tell you one thing once, then add the other in a compulsive truth telling. Like, over-providing information. Lizzie overprovided. Some people tell a lot of extraneous details and bore others when they tell a story because they can't get to the point, they're so busy adding unnecessary things. There's no question Lizzie was all over the house that morning, up and downstairs, moving around, so I don't really blame her that she gets confused about which time she was standing upstairs on the landing and which time she was in the kitchen. With the tremendous trauma of seeing your father butchered, it almost makes more sense that you'd be confused if you were innocent versus telling a perfect story.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by irina »

Thanks, Twinsarewe. I think we can really have fun with this.

Phineas, I can see possibilities in what you say. I have a personality similar to yours plus I am alone a lot. So I tend to talk too much when I'm around people. Then a bad migraine took my ability to speak so now I write stuff all over the internet.

Another thing to think about Lizzie and the barn~should probably be a different thread~would be if she disassociated her mind from horrific things. My best friend is a social worker and she has told me some children who are molested learn to imagine they are somewhere else so they don't have to deal with pain and emotions they can't handle. Sometimes they learn to imagine so good, to protect themselves, that they have difficulty knowing reality from what is not real. I know a number of people here think Lizzie had been abused. I'm not sure but it could be part of it.

Years ago I knew a girl from a dysfunctional family. I doubt there was sexual abuse but the parents didn't want the kids and the kids knew it. The girl started smoking in 3rd grade and was prostituting herself for cigarettes by age 11. She was bright and not mentally ill in any classical sense of mental illness. I doubt if she knew truth from un-truth. Everything was a fantasy.

I wonder if Lizzie went into a fantasy state when discovering the murders~or other unpleasant experiences~and this is why she was so calm. Maybe the barn was a place of safety for her. Just a thought for what it's worth.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by phineas »

I think what Victoria Lincoln tried to describe as epilepsy is more of a fugue state, or as you say Irina, a dissociative state that PTSD survivors can experience. I think that's an interesting take to explain why she was so calm. A fugue state can cause blackouts - wouldn't it be interesting if Lizzie had no memory of the murders she committed and had a consciousness of innocence when she was in fact guilty? As far as sexual abuse goes....it seems to me the type of household where these things occur. Overbearing father loses wife at a young age just when Emma is coming into adolescence. Though he marries, I'm not sure it was for attraction to Abby. You have two teenage girls in the household, an ineffectual stepmother, a dominating man, and a culture of secrecy and ownership with lock and key. The murders themselves, with the amount of overkill, tend to point to some horrific fury that sexual abuse could produce. At a minimum the killer felt aggrieved.

I've always found the bedroom switch interesting, with the front room being in the danger position and Lizzie is protected in the inner room until Emma decides for whatever reason (Lizzie's age?) that she will move (or more likely, Lizzie wanted it that way). I think we all sense that something was not right in that house, but what it was is tantalizingly out of reach.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by Curryong »

Lizzie had just come back from her big trip to Europe when the switch of bedrooms took place. After such a vacation maybe Lizzie felt a little flat afterwards and so, to cheer her up, Emma suggested exchanging bedrooms. Emma didn't seem to mind small rooms. Her bedroom at Maplecroft was small as well.

By the way, Emma was ten years older than Lizzie, so that the two daughters wouldn't have gone through their teenage years together. As a widower, in Emma's early adolescence, Andrew and his family had a housekeeper and a maid in the house. Andrew had his faults and of course it's only my opinion, but I don't believe sexual abuse of either of his daughters can be laid at his door. (I'd rather believe, at a pinch, that Andrew was having relations with the maids!)
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by twinsrwe »

irina wrote:Thanks, Twinsarewe. I think we can really have fun with this. ...
You're welcome. I agree, as a matter of fact, it has already been fun, as well as interesting!
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by debbiediablo »

irina wrote:Lots has been written about Lizzie laughing while Bridget struggled with the door. Many writers would have us believe Lizzie was looking at Abby's body and enjoying her murderous work while also getting a chuckle from Bridget's discomfort that caused her to swear.

Like I wrote somewhere here before I have an idea Bridget use one of those colorful Irish curses that start, "Jaysus, Mary and St. Joseph..." I don't think it was "Pshaw" and I don't think it was, "Oh sh*t". It's possible is was a typically Irish cuss that most of us~and probably the Irish too~would find funny. Therefore Lizzie's laughter was likely very appropriate, provided she knew nothing of Abby's demise.

Also I will add a thought about psychopathy~psychopaths seem unable to feel empathy. The latest research even visualizes parts of the brain that are under developed or don't light up in psychopaths. If Lizzie was guilty because she was a psychopath, she would be unlikely to have been able to show empathy to animals and other people, then or ever. Certainly her later life shows the ability to feel empathy for animals and people and since evidences of this come from her private correspondence and will for example, her empathy was not just for public display.
This is taken from Psychology Today http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the ... not-always

The title is Inside the Mind of a Psychopath - Empathetic But Not Always by Christian Keysers, PhD, author of The Empathetic Brain, published July 24, 2103. The article is long so I'm cutting and pasting the salient paragraph; the rest is quite interesting:

"So psychopathic individuals do not simply lack empathy. Instead, it seems as though for most of us, empathy is the default mode. If we see a victim, we share her pain. For the psychopathic criminals of our study, empathy seemed to be a voluntary activity. If they want to, they can empathize, and that explains how they can be so charming, and maybe so manipulative. Once they have seduced you into doing what serves their purpose, the effortful empathy would probably disappear again. Free of the constraints of empathy, there is then little to stop them from using violence."
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by debbiediablo »

phineas wrote:I think what Victoria Lincoln tried to describe as epilepsy is more of a fugue state, or as you say Irina, a dissociative state that PTSD survivors can experience. I think that's an interesting take to explain why she was so calm. A fugue state can cause blackouts - wouldn't it be interesting if Lizzie had no memory of the murders she committed and had a consciousness of innocence when she was in fact guilty? As far as sexual abuse goes....it seems to me the type of household where these things occur. Overbearing father loses wife at a young age just when Emma is coming into adolescence. Though he marries, I'm not sure it was for attraction to Abby. You have two teenage girls in the household, an ineffectual stepmother, a dominating man, and a culture of secrecy and ownership with lock and key. The murders themselves, with the amount of overkill, tend to point to some horrific fury that sexual abuse could produce. At a minimum the killer felt aggrieved.

I've always found the bedroom switch interesting, with the front room being in the danger position and Lizzie is protected in the inner room until Emma decides for whatever reason (Lizzie's age?) that she will move (or more likely, Lizzie wanted it that way). I think we all sense that something was not right in that house, but what it was is tantalizingly out of reach.
Well said, Phineas.

From the Knowlton papers:

Rescom Case 199 Second St. Fall River - "I have lived in Fall River 57 years and I know all the Bordens and the Morses well. A sister of Mrs. Morse (Lizzies mother, married his cousin, a man named Morse, they now live here in Fall River. I use to know Anthony, father of Lizzies mother. He has a brother now living in Warren Mass. the woman that was murdered use to visit my house often, but she use to keep her affairs to herself pretty well, but I assure you I have my opinion of Lizzie Borden and I hope they will get more evidence. My wife dont know any more than I do aboute the Bordons or Morses. We never heard that anyone of them is or ever was Insane but I think some of them worse than Insane."

This was in response to the *Sanity Survey* conducted by the prosecution's investigator, Moulton Batchelder, Nov.24,1892.

copied from Kat at http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/LBFor ... hp?p=56073
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by irina »

I refreshed that sanity survey a few weeks ago. Interesting stuff.

Debbie, what you post on the empathic psychopath is very true according to what I have read but I was looking at Lizzie's whole life. It is my belief or understanding that the psychopath NEVER feels/shows true empathy and that this is due to brain damage in many if not all cases. Frequently these people have a history of cruelty to animals or bullying, etc. In assessing Lizzie I see instances at least from her later life where she genuinely cared about other people's lives, deaths, illnesses. She genuinely cared about animals. She helped educate people and did other charitable things. She did her charities quietly so they can't be argued as a public statement to clean up her reputation. I believe I see signs that Lizzie genuinely cared from the heart and therefore she isn't a psychopath, even if guilty.

I have heard on true crime programs that women who kill will frequently have amnesia for the event because killing was so far out of the realm of how they view themselves and their values. I'll turn that one over to people who have studied psychology. This applies mostly I think to women who maybe end up killing an abusive partner in self defense or to end abuse even if it isn't imminent self defense. I have never tried to argue this for Lizzie because I don't think two murders fit this pattern. The time between the murders (I do not accept Masterton's idea of both happening relatively close together), is a big reason why I reject this. It gets kind of crazy, thinking about it...Abby is murdered upstairs, Lizzie has amnesia, but oh, by the way there's Father on the sofa...better kill him too, forget about doing it (after hiding the hatchet), and call Bridget right away. It doesn't all fit.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by debbiediablo »

irina wrote:I refreshed that sanity survey a few weeks ago. Interesting stuff.

Debbie, what you post on the empathic psychopath is very true according to what I have read but I was looking at Lizzie's whole life. It is my belief or understanding that the psychopath NEVER feels/shows true empathy and that this is due to brain damage in many if not all cases. Frequently these people have a history of cruelty to animals or bullying, etc. In assessing Lizzie I see instances at least from her later life where she genuinely cared about other people's lives, deaths, illnesses. She genuinely cared about animals. She helped educate people and did other charitable things. She did her charities quietly so they can't be argued as a public statement to clean up her reputation. I believe I see signs that Lizzie genuinely cared from the heart and therefore she isn't a psychopath, even if guilty.

I have heard on true crime programs that women who kill will frequently have amnesia for the event because killing was so far out of the realm of how they view themselves and their values. I'll turn that one over to people who have studied psychology. This applies mostly I think to women who maybe end up killing an abusive partner in self defense or to end abuse even if it isn't imminent self defense. I have never tried to argue this for Lizzie because I don't think two murders fit this pattern. The time between the murders (I do not accept Masterton's idea of both happening relatively close together), is a big reason why I reject this. It gets kind of crazy, thinking about it...Abby is murdered upstairs, Lizzie has amnesia, but oh, by the way there's Father on the sofa...better kill him too, forget about doing it (after hiding the hatchet), and call Bridget right away. It doesn't all fit.
I understand what you're saying here and totally agree there would be no imminent defense here if Lizzie did do it. The thing about psychopaths is they are charming and manipulative and capable of mimicking normal behavior. A close friend of mine says, "I can do psychopath but it's NOT what I am." He is in a position to make that expert assessment. He also includes his father and brother under that diagnoses. All three are highly respected in their professions (one is long dead but was relatively famous and wielded immense power in life) and none of them were bed wetters, fire starters or cruel to animals. The world had Ted Bundy, but it also has Bill Clinton.

PS: From what we now know about the genetics of psychopathy, I also think Lizzie didn't fall very far from the Andrew Borden tree.

edit to correct typo
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by Franz »

"She is not my mother, she is my step-mother."

This statement of Lizzie, pronounced in that moment, sounds to me more a consciousness of innocence than of guilt. It sounds to me an explanation of facts by an innocent, instead of an expression of hate by a guilty.

In my imagination Lizzie might have sopken in a pretty calm way, absolutely not --- even if she were guilty --- as Christina Ricci interpreted in the film.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by PossumPie »

Franz wrote:"She is not my mother, she is my step-mother."

This statement of Lizzie, pronounced in that moment, sounds to me more a consciousness of innocence than of guilt. It sounds to me an explanation of facts by an innocent, instead of an expression of hate by a guilty.

In my imagination Lizzie might have sopken in a pretty calm way, absolutely not --- even if she were guilty --- as Christina Ricci interpreted in the film.

That is your filter...If you think someone is innocent, you will filter everything through the filter of innocence. Franz, you left out the fact that she ALSO said "Don't call her mother, she's a mean old thing and we hate her." That doesn't sound like a sweet calm woman.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by Franz »

PossumPie wrote:
Franz wrote:"She is not my mother, she is my step-mother."

This statement of Lizzie, pronounced in that moment, sounds to me more a consciousness of innocence than of guilt. It sounds to me an explanation of facts by an innocent, instead of an expression of hate by a guilty.

In my imagination Lizzie might have sopken in a pretty calm way, absolutely not --- even if she were guilty --- as Christina Ricci interpreted in the film.

That is your filter...If you think someone is innocent, you will filter everything through the filter of innocence. Franz, you left out the fact that she ALSO said "Don't call her mother, she's a mean old thing and we hate her." That doesn't sound like a sweet calm woman.
I talk about one moment, PossumPie, you talk about another.

In my post I said "pronounced in that moment". My point is that it sounds to me more like consciousness of innocence if one (Lizzie) pointed out --- somehow underlined --- in that delicate moment the fact that "she was not my mother but (ONLY) my step-mother".

And, if I understand well, this thread does not discuss the innocence of Lizzie, but the facts that seem to be consciousness of innocence. So I can consider the fact I mentioned in my post as more likely a demonstration of consciousness of innocence, while I believe her guilty. What's wrong in all of this, please? Just as, when you said in another post that Lizzie's remaining in Fall River after the trial seems more like a consciousness of innocence, but if guilty she could have remained as well. And I agreed with you, right?

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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by Franz »

PossumPie, I invite you to re-read what I wrote:
...
This statement of Lizzie, pronounced in that moment, sounds to me more a consciousness of innocence than of guilt. It sounds to me an explanation of facts by an innocent, instead of an expression of hate by a guilty.
...

I think that, while writhing in this way, I was considering if the statement of Lizzie shows a consciousness of innocence or guilt. I don't think my observations expressed here are based on my opinion that Lizzie was most probably innocent.

But your reply, not only this one but many others as well, seems to me that when you reply to my posts, especially when you object me, you have always in your mind the idea that Franz believes Lizzie innocent (and therefore what he said must have been based on this opinion of him).

PossumPie, if I tell you now that it is not (always) true, can you believe me?

(P.S.: I invite other memebers --- especially those who believe Lizzie guilty --- to consider if Lizzie's "step-mother" statement, at that moment, seems more a consciousness of innocence, or of guilt.)
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by Franz »

PossumPie wrote: ...
That is your filter...If you think someone is innocent, you will filter everything through the filter of innocence. Franz, you left out the fact that she ALSO said "Don't call her mother, she's a mean old thing and we hate her." That doesn't sound like a sweet calm woman.
Yes, PossumPie, Lizzie said that phrase quoted by you, but she said it --- if I am not mistaken --- before the murders ocurred , so this phrase has nothing to do neither with the consciousness of innocence, nor with that of guilt, in my modest opinion. PossumPie, you said I "left out the fact...". To leave out, by my understanding of your native language, means intentionally not to mention (you didn't say that Franz forgot the fact...) Please tell me, PossumPie, when I consider the consciousness of innocence (or of guilt), why must I "take in" a fact that occured before the murder?

Yes, I said: "In my imagination Lizzie might have sopken in a pretty calm way", this is nothing else but a pure conjecture of mine and concerns only that exact phrase in that exact moment, and this doesn't mean that I might think that Lizzie, generally speaking, could / should / might / must / be "a sweet calm woman".
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by irina »

I think the correction from Lizzie that Abby is her STEPmother can well be a consciousness of innocence. Morals and mores were more ingrained then than today but even now we say, "Don't speak ill of the dead". If a person says bad things about someone and then is suspected of killing that person, a reasonable person/murderer would want to say good things about the deceased. I would say it would be consciousness of guilt is Lizzie was gushing about losing her dear, beloved Mother who was so close to her. We'd all be saying baloney! If one is free of guilt one might be more honest in describing their relationships.

In some modern crimes innocent suspects have felt free enough to say. "I hated the victim and I'm glad he's dead....but I didn't kill him."
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by Franz »

irina wrote:I think the correction from Lizzie that Abby is her STEPmother can well be a consciousness of innocence. Morals and mores were more ingrained then than today but even now we say, "Don't speak ill of the dead". If a person says bad things about someone and then is suspected of killing that person, a reasonable person/murderer would want to say good things about the deceased. I would say it would be consciousness of guilt is Lizzie was gushing about losing her dear, beloved Mother who was so close to her. We'd all be saying baloney! If one is free of guilt one might be more honest in describing their relationships.

In some modern crimes innocent suspects have felt free enough to say. "I hated the victim and I'm glad he's dead....but I didn't kill him."
I agree. And it's always in the same light that I interprete some Lizzie's replies to --- against --- Knowlton, such as the definition of the cordiality; her not knowing even who Knowlton was, etc. It's difficult for me --- I am not saying impossible --- to imagine that a guilty, with his / her consciousness of guilt, could have acted in this manner in front of an inspector who was strongly suspecting him / her.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by irina »

At best Lizzie didn't tell her story accurately. Indeed it appears she lied about some things. If a person is going to lie about some things for some reason, they may as well lie about how much they loved and miss someone they hated.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by twinsrwe »

Franz wrote:… (P.S.: I invite other memebers --- especially those who believe Lizzie guilty --- to consider if Lizzie's "step-mother" statement, at that moment, seems more a consciousness of innocence, or of guilt.)
Fleet testified at the Trial (p464):

"Q. Anything else?
A. I then asked her if she had any idea who could have killed her father and mother. Then she said, "She is not my mother, sir; she is my stepmother; my mother died when I was a child. ..."


Since none of us were there to actually witness Lizzie’s tone and pitch of voice, as well as observe her facial expression (particularly her eyes) and body language, then it is impossible to say if this was said as a consciousness of innocence, or a consciousness of guilt statement.

The thing that stands out for me is the fact that Lizzie did not answer Fleet’s question. She was more concerned with an trivial mistake on Fleet’s part, than answering an important question. Perhaps she had something to hide, and therefore deliberately avoided answering the question.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by Curryong »

I agree with twins. There seems to have been a bit of a fixation by Lizzie on this particular stumble by Knowlton. It could be a sign of arrogance ("How ignorant of this person not to know Mrs Borden was not MY mother.") for all we know. We weren't there in the courtroom.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by Franz »

twinsrwe wrote:...

Fleet testified at the Trial (p464):

"Q. Anything else?
A. I then asked her if she had any idea who could have killed her father and mother. Then she said, "She is not my mother, sir; she is my stepmother; my mother died when I was a child. ..."


Since none of us were there to actually witness Lizzie’s tone and pitch of voice, as well as observe her facial expression (particularly her eyes) and body language, then it is impossible to say if this was said as a consciousness of innocence, or a consciousness of guilt statement.

The thing that stands out for me is the fact that Lizzie did not answer Fleet’s question. She was more concerned with an trivial mistake on Fleet’s part, than answering an important question. Perhaps she had something to hide, and therefore deliberately avoided answering the question.
Yes twinsrwe, your observations are correct, however:

1. My point was focused on Lizzie's correction in itself: why, at that moment, did Lizzie do such a correction? (no matter in which tone and pitch of voice, anyway Ricci's interpretaion is for me absolutely unbelievable). She --- guilty or innocent --- could have answered, very simply, "no, I have no idea, sire." So her correction itself makes me think that it sounds more a consciouness of innocence than of guilt (if guilty, she would have had more reason not to do such a correction, IMO.)

2. Yes, Lizzie didn't answer the question. You said: "She (Lizzie) was more concerned with an trivial mistake on Fleet’s part, than answering an important question". Right, but attention please: Fleet's question finished with the word "mother", so it was not impossible that this word "mother" drew more attention of Lizzie (since, no matter how relationship could be between Lizzie and Abby, this is a fact that Abby indeed was not Lizzie's mother, but her stepmother). Lizzie's attention being drawn by the word "mother", she could have thought to correct Fleet's error, and forgot to answer his question --- anyway she would not know who was the killer, if she herself were innocent. So, if it's true that Lizzie didn't answer the question, we could not be sure that Lizzie "deliberately avoided answering the question". . So I appreciate your "perhaps".
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by PossumPie »

I think everyone is putting too much effort into psychoanalyzing small choices of words and we were not there. We can't see facial expressions, we can't here inflection of voice, we could debate forever this vague fact. What we know for a FACT is that Lizzie was evasive in answers, lied multiple times, and before the murders expressed hatred toward Abby. This is also backed up by multiple witnessess who all stated that the Borden girls mistreated Abby.
NOW, of course our interpretation of all these facts are what is debatable. Lizzie-is-innocent people feel she was scared and confused. They downplay the hatred angle. Lizzie-is-guilty people feel she was mean and covering up for a more confused set of lies. Fact is both sides can argue their points quite well.

There is a great saying in the world of skeptics. If a theory can explain EVERYTHING and have an un-provable explanation for any argument made against it then it is worthless. For example, Astrology and Creationism. Every time scientific evidence proves these are wrong, proponents come up with a supernatural explanation that can't be dis-proven. Hence people who believe these things never lose an argument b/c they can always revert to "It's beyond science's ability to comprehend." Contrast that with a theory such as the whole solar system revolves around the earth, not the sun. This was proved wrong beyond a doubt, so was a good theory (albeit wrong). Psychology is one such dis-provable theory. Every time I debate Franz, he can come up with an explanation for every point I make against his theory. I also can come up with an explanation for every point he makes against my theory. It is no win, and without further evidence, un-provable either way. Of course that doesn't make it fun to debate...!
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by irina »

Circumstantial evidence is open to interpretation based on individual perspectives. Perhaps the best we can do is try to classify these things such as consciousness of innocence and guilt. In the discussions it is a good thing to sometimes let the other guy have the last word. Any subject can be argued forever with "yeah, but". I have fun with that sometimes on Twitter. It is a fine point to know when to let an argument drop while looking for new information to support your side. The key is new information and research. If we believe a certain thing, be prepared to do intense research and see where the information leads.

Actually it is less important to prove Lizzie guilty or innocent than it is to understand the crimes and the case and the people involved. There is a lot to learn here and it is far more fascinating than guilt or innocence.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by BOBO »

irina wrote:Circumstantial evidence is open to interpretation based on individual perspectives. Perhaps the best we can do is try to classify these things such as consciousness of innocence and guilt. In the discussions it is a good thing to sometimes let the other guy have the last word. Any subject can be argued forever with "yeah, but". I have fun with that sometimes on Twitter. It is a fine point to know when to let an argument drop while looking for new information to support your side. The key is new information and research. If we believe a certain thing, be prepared to do intense research and see where the information leads.

Actually it is less important to prove Lizzie guilty or innocent than it is to understand the crimes and the case and the people involved. There is a lot to learn here and it is far more fascinating than guilt or innocence.
In my mind the "WHO" has long since been settled. The "WHY" remains open (hopefully, not for long).
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by Franz »

irina wrote:...
Actually it is less important to prove Lizzie guilty or innocent than it is to understand the crimes and the case and the people involved. There is a lot to learn here and it is far more fascinating than guilt or innocence.
Well said, Irina.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by Franz »

BOBO wrote:... In my mind the "WHO" has long since been settled. The "WHY" remains open (hopefully, not for long).
I think the same, BOBO. :smile:
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by debbiediablo »

irina wrote:Circumstantial evidence is open to interpretation based on individual perspectives. Perhaps the best we can do is try to classify these things such as consciousness of innocence and guilt. In the discussions it is a good thing to sometimes let the other guy have the last word. Any subject can be argued forever with "yeah, but". I have fun with that sometimes on Twitter. It is a fine point to know when to let an argument drop while looking for new information to support your side. The key is new information and research. If we believe a certain thing, be prepared to do intense research and see where the information leads.

Actually it is less important to prove Lizzie guilty or innocent than it is to understand the crimes and the case and the people involved. There is a lot to learn here and it is far more fascinating than guilt or innocence.
I pretty much think she will never be proven guilty or innocent unless someone digs in their attic and finds a full written confession. But examining the facts, the factoids, whether the forensics of the day are valid, discussing why certain things simply disappeared from interest (the handkerchief, Bridget with two sheets, an open or closed guest room door, the other suspects who seem to have glanced at and then forgotten) allows each of us to form an opinion. My problem is my opinion vacillates. Sometimes I think Lizzie was railroaded because Fall River needed to try someone; other times I cannot see any other way than that she did it. Then I wonder why...greed alone doesn't seem to account for the brutality of the crimes. Which sets my vivid imagination off into places supported by gossip and innuendo and supposition. Maybe the reason Lizzie is of such great interest is there will be as many opinions as to what really happened as there are interested people.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by twinsrwe »

Franz: You invited other members, especially those who believe Lizzie guilty, to consider if Lizzie's "step-mother" statement, at that moment, seems more a consciousness of innocence, or of guilt.)

I stand by what I posted above. IMO: Lizzie displayed a consciousness of guilt statement. If Lizzie was not the killer, then she KNEW who the killer was, and she deliberately avoided answering Fleet's question.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by phineas »

I believe Lizzie did it. However, her behavior with the police and what I'll call lack of sucking up and being compliant, does give me pause. If I consider her a criminal mastermind who can carry out two murders, then why is she not savvy enough to play the role of demure, grieving, anxious to please witness? Yes, it's true we don't have access to tone of voice or other cues to read her presentation. On paper, she sounds evasive, imperious, sometimes gruff, and impatient. Maybe she considered the questions beneath her and her true consciousness was that of THEIR belief in her innocence so she didn't feel she had to play nice.

Either she couldn't modulate her personality or she didn't care to or, third possibility, was so socially inept she didn't realize how she came across (Asperger's running in the family?). The question for me is, does a guilty person try to woo the police or not? An irascible innocent person looks more guilty because it violates our expectations. We don't expect an innocent person to lie or show irritation like Lizzie did. Yet a helpful, at ease person could be a serial killer smoothie like a Ted Bundy.

I think she can be read either way, depending on your lens. Either the dodgy behavior is the thing itself: murderess. OR only an innocent person could be so clueless and lacking in guile. There's a saying that when you squeeze someone hard, the toothpaste that comes out is what's really there. And heaven knows she was under pressure. We know her personality was such that she controlled emotions, but she made no effort to behave the Victorian ideal of swooning woman which to me, would have been a performance that the police expected. That she didn't violated their expectations. It violates mine. If she was guilty, I would expect her to have been more kindly toward the police in order to conceal her guilt. That she didn't is a mystery...just one of many here!
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by debbiediablo »

My latest pleasure reading is Spy the Lie: How to Spot Deception the CIA Way (Yes, I lead an unexciting life... :smiliecolors: )
Here are a few points the authors make about verbal deception:

• Failure to answer - If you ask someone a question and he doesn’t give you what you ask for, there’s a reason for that. One possible reason is that the facts aren’t on his side, and he’s trying to figure out how to deal with that.

Avoidance - Closely related to the failure to answer is the absence of an explicit denial of something in your question that involves an act of wrongdoing, or has consequences associated with it.

• Long-winded - If in response to a question about wrongdoing, a person gives you a “no” response, but buries it in a long-winded answer, that’s important. If the percentage of the answer that relates to the denial is relatively small, that’s a bad thing. Consider it a deceptive indicator.

• Reluctance to answer - Sometimes, we’ll ask a person a question and he’ll say something like, “I’m not sure I’m the right person to talk to.” In some instances, it’s because he doesn’t want to be the right person to talk to— it’s an easy dodge.

• Repeat the Repeating Parrot - Why might a deceptive person repeat a question? We think of it as buying time , and ultimately that’s the goal. But what’s happening, according to behavioral psychologists, is he’s probably trying to fill in what would otherwise appear to be a very awkward moment of silence. Silence in response to a question is almost universally perceived as deceptive.

• Ditto for non-answer statements such as, “That’s a good question,” or “I’m glad you asked that.”

Inconsistent statements - “It is not without good reason said, that he who has not good memory should never take upon him the trade of lying."

Going into attack mode - Being backed into a corner by the facts of a situation can put a lot of strain on a deceptive person, and can compel him to go on the attack.

• Asking the inappropriate question - Some schools of thought suggest that answering a question with a question is deceptive, but we would say that’s not necessarily the case. What concerns us is when we ask a question, and the response is a question that doesn’t directly relate to the question we asked.

Specificity - Deceptive people might be overly specific in two ways, and they’re almost polar opposites. One way is they will answer a question too technically, or too narrowly. In addition to being overly specific by limiting the scope of the response, deceptive people might go to the other extreme of overspecificity and inundate you with detailed information in response to your question.

• Inappropriate level of politeness - We’re certainly not at all suspicious of someone who’s just a nice person. But if, in response to a question, a person suddenly increases the level of nicety, that’s significant.

• Diminishment - If the facts are not a person’s ally, he’s put into a hole from which he needs to try to extricate himself. A person in this position doesn’t have much going for him, so he might resort to a strategy of attempting to diminish the importance of the issue.

Complaints - Sometimes, a person won’t necessarily go on the attack, but will still attempt to play offense rather than defense by taking issue with the proceedings. Questions like “Why are you asking me?” or “How long is this going to take?”

Failure to Understand a Simple Question - When you ask a question, you often use certain words or phrases to establish boundaries that define the scope or magnitude of the question. If that particular wording traps the person, one strategy he might employ is to get you to change your phrasing or terminology. The aim is to shrink the scope or magnitude of the question, to give him just enough wiggle room to answer it to your satisfaction and to his.

• Referral statements - Sometimes in response to a question, a deceptive person will refer to having previously answered the question. This might take the form of such statements as, “I would refer you to my earlier statement when I said . . .” or “As I told the last guy . . .” or “As we have repeatedly stated in our corporate filings . . .” The idea here is to build credibility.

• Invoking God - When a person brings God into the equation, he’s engaging in an extreme form of what psychologists call “dressing up the lie,” and it can be very effective. After all, what do you have in your briefcase that tops God? So, you need to recognize responses that include such phrases as “I swear to God” or “As God is my witness” for what they may well be: an attempt to dress up a lie in its Sunday best before presenting it to you.

• Selective memory - When a person says, “I don’t remember,” that’s a difficult statement to refute without some definitive, tangible evidence. It’s a psychological alibi , and it’s a hard alibi to crack.

• Qualifiers - Examples of qualifiers of this type include “basically,”“for the most part,” “fundamentally,”“probably,” and “most often.” Perception qualifiers are used to enhance credibility: “frankly,”“to be perfectly honest,” and “candidly” are examples.

• Lies of influence - Q: Did you love your step-mother? A: Let me show you my award for being Fall River Sunday School Teacher of the Year in 1887.

Okay, maybe more than a few!!! The important point made by the authors is one of these taken in and of itself may mean nothing, but a pattern definitely casts red flags. I've bolded the ones I see Lizzie doing...



Houston, Philip; Floyd, Mike; Carnicero, Susan (2012-07-19). Spy the Lie: How to spot deception the CIA way Icon Books.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by Curryong »

Now, we'll just go through Lizzie's replies in her Inquest testimony...!
By the way, "I don't remember" surely could be perfectly innocent when being questioned unless it's repetitive?
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by debbiediablo »

I think when it's an issue when used selectively and for clear benefit of the person being questioned. And within context.
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Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by Curryong »

Bob Hawke, once Prime Minister of Australia, was famous for, when faced with hard questions, stating "First, let me say this...". He would then rattle on in philosophical mode for three or four minutes, in hopes of not having to answer the original question!
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debbiediablo
Posts: 1467
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:42 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Deborah
Location: Upper Midwest

Re: Consciousness of Innocence

Post by debbiediablo »

I'm always on alert the moment someone says, "To be perfectly honest," because what follows is most likely untrue. Very little in conversation annoys me more than asking a yes or no question (mostly to my kids when they were growing up) and getting an explanation without the answer. My daughter with autism still does this, but with her it's more speech and language deficit although she's totally capable of prevaricating, too.
DebbieDiablo

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