With permission...

[BOBO]

I will post this letter from the Mary Grein family descendants... The photo copy of this letter has been in my possession since 2006. The copy I have is very faint, I can not get it to print to where it's readable.
It was written from Sarah Welch to Mary Grein in August of 1881. The letter was written on note book paper of 5 1/2 x 7. There are 3 pages of this letter written, with page 2 missing.
Page 1 reads... "Regards, there is work in the Hunt's family. they are good family. The borden family is good folk but be carefull they are not well. things go on there that you should not see. maybe there is work that you can find.
PAGE 2 IS MISSING.. Page 3 reads... that house is full of woes... leave now.
That letter ends on that note... WHAT SAY YOU??

[phineas]

Wow Bobo. That's a barn burner of a letter. Fascinating. House of woes...things you should not see....not well. Do inquiring minds want to know!!! Thanks for sharing, I'm completely fascinated.

[BOBO]

For 45 yrs. this case has weighed on my mind. For 40 yrs., incest NEVER played a part... UNTIL NOW. Deb, I owed you this!!!

[phineas]

I wonder if 'good folk' means their station in life, not some moral judgment?

[BOBO]

This letter was found in Mary Greins possessions when she died in Oct. 1927.

[Curiousmind2014]

I knew it!! It had to be something wrong! That family acted weirdly. Even if the murders had never happened.

[Curryong]

Thank you, thank you BOBO for this! I wonder what 'House of Woes' and seeing 'things you shouldn't see' actually means, though? It still might not necessarily refer to incest between Andrew and his daughters . He might have been making free with a former maid and Sarah saw it and was afraid it would happen to Mary?

Was there always a strained atmosphere in the Borden household and is that what 'woes' refers to? Remember, Sarah does say the Bordens are 'good' people (presumably to work for.) Surely she wouldn't have written that if she'd seen Andrew being inappropriate with Lizzie or Emma? I wonder whether the Hunts were parents to Josiah, whom Bridget worked for?

[Curryong]

BOBO, you couldn't please, please, give us some more of Page 3, where Sarah advises Mary to leave, could you? As in, whose house is she advising her to leave if Mary hadn't started work at the Bordens yet?

[Aamartin]

a wonderful find! Thanks SO much!

[hyacinth]

Since page 2 is missing how do we know that " house is full of woes " is referring to the Borden's and the subject didn't change to another family on page 2 ?

[BOBO]

Since page 2 is missing how do we know that " house is full of woes " is referring to the Borden's and the subject didn't change to another family on page 2 ?

PLEASE look at my previous post. I released this letter on this forum FIRST. Afterwards, I released this letter to several media outlets. I did not expect this kind of response!!! While the publicity sounds good, THAT IS NOT ME. CBS, ABC, FOX NEWS, HISTORY Channel, etc... you can find any answers, from me, on this forum. Tim Boyd

[phineas]

Is there any family lore to go along with the letter that you can share? Were any stories passed down relating to the letter that they have? If you can't answer that specifically, can you say whether further stories exist?

[debbiediablo]

Bobo. THANK YOU! I am not going to comment until thinking this over with care...in the meantime THANK YOU THANK YOU!

[twinsrwe]

Regarding ‘that house is full of woes’: The definition of woe is: 1. a condition of deep suffering from misfortune, affliction, or grief. 2. ruinous trouble: calamity, affliction <economic woes>. Source: http://tinyurl.com/pfyemrz. I don’t see this definition as having anything to do with incest or, as Curryong suggested, indulging in any kind of a sexual relationship with a servant. I see this as a discord within the family. We know the relationship between Abby and the girls was not a loving one; no affection existed. We know there was a great deal of tension within the Borden family, which probably resulted in daily bickering and antipathy. The Borden home was literally a house divided; the physical barriers in the house reflected the dysfunctional familial relationships.

We know that according to the US census for 1865, Sarah Welch was 21 years old. We know that according to the US census for 1880, Mary Green was 35 years old. Which means that in 1881 when this letter was written, Sarah was about 37 years old, and Mary was 36 years old. I find it interesting that Mary had already been employed for approximately a year before Sarah wrote this letter.

BOBO, do you know when Mary Grein’s employment with the Bordens began and ended?

Regarding the following statement: ‘The borden family is good folk but be carefull they are not well.’ Perhaps Sarah was referring to the Bordens being a dysfunctional family.

The part of ‘things go on there that you should not see’, doesn’t necessarily mean Andrew was having a incestuous relationship with his daughter(s); it could mean any number of things, like the hostility between family members, or perhaps Andrew enjoyed running around the house in his underwear!!!

We also know that Bridget wanted to leave, for what reason I don’t know, but Abby talked her into staying. At the time of the murders, Bridget had been working for the Bordens for two years and nine months. I would think that if there were an inappropriate relationship going on between Andrew and his daughter(s), then Bridget would not have stayed with the Borden, no matter how much Abby begged her to stay.

BOBO you stated: Page 3 reads... that house is full of woes... leave now. What is before and after the ellipses you have indicated? Is there more to this letter?

[irina]

Fascinating. Thank you BOBO for sharing with us.

"Un-well" was a term my first husband and his family used. There was a British connexion in that family. They used the term to politely say someone was mentally off. It could indicate full blown mental illness or behaviour that was not entirely voluntary, like a very bad temper for example. They did not use it to denote willful evil. I of course picked it up from them and sometimes use the term the same way. My mother-in-law was born about the day Lizzie was acquitted. (My husband was a lot older than me.)

I am intrigued about things that shouldn't be seen. Seems to me if the issue was sexual or incestuous there would have been an attempt to hide that sort of thing. It also seems to me that if Andrew was doing things with the maids there wouldn't be the comment that the Bordens are good folk. Perhaps that mention means they paid well or were good to their hired help. Bridget seems to have had it pretty good compared to many other maids of the time.

Was anyone else living in the Borden hosuehold in 1881? Any extended family that could be considered?

Also should we look at this from an Irish Catholic perspective? Would there be anything that might be considered extreme or unacceptable in a Protestant home that would draw such comments? As was suggested it could be something like a male person running around in his underwear except I don't imagine Andrew doing that. Wouldn't it be reasonable to think anything very sinfully sexual (i.e. incest) would draw more of a comment than "not well"? It makes me wonder if someone in the family had epileptic seizures, or some other medical condition out of the ordinary that was poorly understood. Sleep walking perhaps?

Thanks again for sharing such an interesting letter.

[BOBO]

BOBO, you couldn't please, please, give us some more of Page 3, where Sarah advises Mary to leave, could you? As in, whose house is she advising her to leave if Mary hadn't started work at the Bordens yet?

Page 3 simply reads "that house is full of woes leave now Sarah"
Grein family members say Mary went to work for the Borden's in 1878-1879.
Yes, there are family stories that have been passed down. I am dealing with a 84 yr. old man, whose memory is vague at best. The original letter is in his possession. For me to repeat the family stories would seem pointless to most forum members. I will try to reply to PM's, if any forum members would like to hear some.
That is why I tried to get the Grein family to post!
As far as the letter goes, "it is, what it is".

[BOBO]

Thank you, thank you BOBO for this! I wonder what 'House of Woes' and seeing 'things you shouldn't see' actually means, though? It still might not necessarily refer to incest between Andrew and his daughters . He might have been making free with a former maid and Sarah saw it and was afraid it would happen to Mary?

Was there always a strained atmosphere in the Borden household and is that what 'woes' refers to? Remember, Sarah does say the Bordens are 'good' people (presumably to work for.) Surely she wouldn't have written that if she'd seen Andrew being inappropriate with Lizzie or Emma? I wonder whether the Hunts were parents to Josiah, whom Bridget worked for?

I think that the line "they are good family" refers to the Hunt's, if I am reading it right. As to these Hunt's being the parents of Josiah, that is an excellent question.

[BOBO]

A nagging question for me is this. If the letter was written in 1881, why did Mary hold onto it till her death in 1927? If it simply was referring to a "dysfunctional " family, I really see no reason to save it. Why was page 1 and 3 saved and page 2 missing (destroyed?)?
These answers we may never know. The letter was reportedly found in a Bible, given to her by her grandfather. If that's true, it seems that she intended for it to be found. BUT WHY?

[twinsrwe]

... As was suggested it could be something like a male person running around in his underwear except I don't imagine Andrew doing that. ....

I posted that suggestion, simply as an example for the statement of ‘things go on there that you should not see’. My point being, this statement could mean any number of things. Given the information we were given to go on, I just don’t see this statement as an indication that Andrew was having a incestuous relationship with his daughter(s). Perhaps if there were more information available, I’d see things differently.

BTW, I can’t see Andrew as doing such a thing, either!

[twinsrwe]

A nagging question for me is this. If the letter was written in 1881, why did Mary hold onto it till her death in 1927? If it simply was referring to a "dysfunctional " family, I really see no reason to save it. Why was page 1 and 3 saved and page 2 missing (destroyed?)?
These answers we may never know. The letter was reportedly found in a Bible, given to her by her grandfather. If that's true, it seems that she intended for it to be found. BUT WHY?

These are very good questions, BOBO. The missing page 2 is a mystery, for sure, and you could be right in thinking that it was destroyed. The missing page 2 is just as much, if not more, of a mystery than her keeping pages 1 and 3. I’m assuming Mary destroyed page 2, but why not the entire letter? Since the remaining contents of the letter was reportedly found in a Bible her grandfather gave her, I suppose she could have been using it as a bookmark, but still, it just seems so odd that the entire letter was not destroyed. I agree, it does seem as though she intended for it to be found, and I also have to wonder why?

[Aamartin]

A nagging question for me is this. If the letter was written in 1881, why did Mary hold onto it till her death in 1927? If it simply was referring to a "dysfunctional " family, I really see no reason to save it. Why was page 1 and 3 saved and page 2 missing (destroyed?)?
These answers we may never know. The letter was reportedly found in a Bible, given to her by her grandfather. If that's true, it seems that she intended for it to be found. BUT WHY?

Page 2 could have been easily lost or misplaced. No matter what, this is an amazing find.

[Curryong]

It is amazing, even though in many ways it leaves more of a mystery! One thing is for sure, the Bordens were never a happy family. Were Sarah and Mary related in any way? Were their families good friends, leading Mary to confide in the older woman? Did either Sarah or Mary return to Ireland? So many questions, BOBO!

I do agree that Page 2 could easily have been lost or misplaced over the years, especially if Mary was elderly when she placed the letter in the Bible.

[phineas]

I agree with Irina that 'not well' is code for mental problems. My family used it in that sense. Because she differentiates between the Hunts as a "good family" versus the Bordens as "good folk" I wonder if that wasn't a class distinction such as 'fine folk' instead of being used in a moral sense. Although she says that, then says 'but' which seems to qualify the statement. 'Things that you should not see' doesn't point to incest in my view because it's typically hidden and secret, even if a maid does know most of what goes on in a family's bosom. I also question whether ladies of that time even KNEW incest existed. I don't think we can underestimate the innocence of that era. A nicely brought up working class girl could probably go her whole life never knowing what incest was. I think it's more probably strange behavior if not physical abuse or violence. While the world was far more tolerant of domestic abuse then and wife-beating, it would still not be pleasant to witness. Andrew was not so old that he couldn't have been physically violent. Or, the 'things that go' on could be Lizzie or Emma's behavior; I still think their mother Sarah was probably bi-polar due to the descriptions of her temper and oddness and that runs in families. Bi polar people uncontrolled by medication are known to shed their clothes, can hallucinate, go on rants, and buying sprees (maybe shoplifting sprees since there wasn't the money to spend?) I lived with a bi-polar person and it's anything but pleasant in very manic state. The letter seems to be describing behaviors that can be seen/witnessed versus a dark secret that would be unseen.

On the domestic violence front, could part of Lizzie and Emma's antipathy for Abby be because she didn't protect them? Abused children often displace their rage against the abuser onto the second, non-protective parent figure.

[Curryong]

I agree with most of what you say, phineas. However, I don't think there is a distinction there between 'good family' and 'good folk'. I think the intent is the same.

It may very well have been emotional abuse rather than physical which shocked Sarah, as well as the grim atmosphere that prevailed in the house, sulks, resentments, barbed comments between the women. In an age in which 'honour thy father and thy mother' was very much adhered to, Sarah may have found the girls' rudeness and lack of care, and the ignoring of Abby's relatives, beyond shocking.

[phineas]

So if there is no distinction between good family and good folk, then Sarah is saying the Bordens are good people but unwell. That changes the complexion for me and why I argued for a close reading of that meaning because if she says they're basically decent then the things that go on can't be that bad. As Twins said, maybe family strife/discord and arguments but nothing dire or really shocking, because she's judged them as good. If they're good people then things that shouldn't be seen would be private family stress; i.e., things that should not be witnessed by outsiders.

But. If they are good folk meaning of high station only then I read it as they're wealthy but mentally ill (meaning they may pay well but it's not worth it because they are sick).

Btw, I went to grad school for literature so I am probably overdoing it on combing the text for meaning but an alternate interpretation that does not state they are 'good' people but instead merely grand makes things that you should not see far more sinister. And I confess, I yearn for that sentence to mean just that, something really bad that would explain this whole thing even if we don't know precisely what the really bad is. I just want to know that there was some explosive something that shocked the maids.

[debbiediablo]

I will post this letter from the Mary Grein family descendants... The photo copy of this letter has been in my possession since 2006. The copy I have is very faint, I can not get it to print to where it's readable.
It was written from Sarah Welch to Mary Grein in August of 1881. The letter was written on note book paper of 5 1/2 x 7. There are 3 pages of this letter written, with page 2 missing.
Page 1 reads... "Regards, there is work in the Hunt's family. they are good family. The borden family is good folk but be carefull they are not well. things go on there that you should not see. maybe there is work that you can find.
PAGE 2 IS MISSING.. Page 3 reads... that house is full of woes... leave now.
That letter ends on that note... WHAT SAY YOU??

I read this much differently...and darkly.

The key words here may be 'folk' and 'unwell' and how we read them. My initial interpretation is that the Borden family consists of good individuals (which would eliminate incest, pregnant maids, abortions and other forms of abuse) but one or more of them is mentally unstable. We now know that bipolar is often genetic and (as I recall) that Sarah was prone to rages. Rage is a common element of bipolar disorder, but I cannot imagine either Lizzie or Emma living out their lives in any community without being renown for bipolar rages, especially following the murders when their behavior was subject to scrutiny, nor can I imagine Andrew being prone to rages that remained secret. He was out in the community far too much. When people with bipolar blow, they blow. It's not something that confines itself to hearth and home. Unless the person who is ill is herself confined to hearth and home.

We rarely consider Abby as the possible source of mental instability. She's the shy, self-effacing, stay-a-home step-mother who suffers at the hands two nasty step-daughters. We look at the sisters and say "like mother, like daughter." But what if it were Abby who had the bipolar? She was an attractive young woman from an acceptable family, yet she didn't marry until later in life. She had few friends, was close only to her sister. She had no social life. She wore Andrew's old boots which can be eccentric or something more. The girls had no time for her, and what started as dislike turned into a war of attrition.

What if Abby is the one who raged? What if it's Mrs. Borden who is the "good folk" who was not well. This would explain Bridget's ambivalence about staying or going. When not at the top or the bottom of her sine wave, Abby was likely an exemplary employer, and undoubtedly regretful for her uncontrolled rages. This might work for a well-reimbursed and underworked maid over a few years, but it doesn't bode well in the rearing of children and especially step-children with a controlling and possibly distant father. (I've wondered more than once why Bridget would want to leave such a cushy job and why Abby would beg her to stay. And also why Andrew determined the menu....)

Then again, Andrew may not have been distant or controlling; he may have been caught in a marriage where he had to take control, had to pay a maid well to keep her from leaving, and where he somehow had to provide paternal affection to offset the damage done by the mother figures (both Sarah and Abby) whose affection was interspersed with violent rages. Several persons have mentioned what it's like to live with a bipolar person. It's damn difficult for an adult, even now with good pharmaceutical control. As a child in the late 1800s, it would've been absolute hell.

This has taken some time in writing so someone else may have voiced these ideas during my down time. I apologize if this reiterates someone else's post.

My final comment is that an inconsistent environment where children feel abandoned by those who are supposed to protect them is a hotbed for development of personality disorders during the first 4-5 years of life. I've thought from the beginning that Lizzie showed borderline signs...but that's for another post when I've thought through it more thoroughly.

Addendum: mental illness in the household, the serious kind, might help explain the lockdown within the house.

[debbiediablo]

So if there is no distinction between good family and good folk, then Sarah is saying the Bordens are good people but unwell. That changes the complexion for me and why I argued for a close reading of that meaning because if she says they're basically decent then the things that go on can't be that bad. As Twins said, maybe family strife/discord and arguments but nothing dire or really shocking, because she's judged them as good. If they're good people then things that shouldn't be seen would be private family stress; i.e., things that should not be witnessed by outsiders.

But. If they are good folk meaning of high station only then I read it as they're wealthy but mentally ill (meaning they may pay well but it's not worth it because they are sick).

Btw, I went to grad school for literature so I am probably overdoing it on combing the text for meaning but an alternate interpretation that does not state they are 'good' people but instead merely grand makes things that you should not see far more sinister. And I confess, I yearn for that sentence to mean just that, something really bad that would explain this whole thing even if we don't know precisely what the really bad is. I just want to know that there was some explosive something that shocked the maids.

I see a difference between Borden family and Borden folk...the Borden folk brings those of Borden blood to mind. Which would exclude Abby.

No way do I read any of this letter as innocuous. The words we are privy to are too intense and directive.

[phineas]

That's a great point about Abby, debbiediablo. Something similar occurred to me but you expressed it perfectly. She is a cipher. People often have a tendency to choose similar mates...could Andrew have seen in her what he saw in Sarah?

No way do I read any of this letter as innocuous. The words we are privy to are too intense and directive.

The fact that it was written down is important. People tended to keep letters (asking for your letters back was of course once a done thing) and if you committed it to paper, you were prepared to stand by it. The imperative, "leave now" doesn't mince any words. It makes me wonder if this continued an in-person discussion that the women had had.

I agree that someone was mentally unstable in that household - or, two people, who combusted frequently. What if the house was on lockdown not to keep people out but to keep people in? Emma rarely traveled and had little social life that we know of - she's another cipher without a lot of witnesses to her behavior. Lizzie does seem a bit borderline as well. If you eliminate the obvious psychological symptoms of delusion or hallucination which would be evident to passers-by and townspeople, many mental illnesses are best known only to the family. As a businessman, Andrew's reputation was critical and perhaps he went to lengths to keep his girls (all three of them) away from social engagements that would be uncontrolled environments. They were allowed to attend church, shop and visit female intimates but that's about it. Of the three, Lizzie must have chafed the most from this circumscribed life. Although it's not clear how much larger it could have been lacking access to the Hill. Someone mentioned (sorry I can't remember who) that her late sleeping might have been depression.

The letter says THEY are unwell. Not who, more in the direction of a dynamic...or, literally all 4 of them. The phenomenon of living with a mentally ill person has been called crazymaking -and given enough time, healthy people can begin to exhibit symptoms of mental illness from the strain. Imagine another ten years of this beyond the letter!

[Curryong]

I don't know about Abby being from an 'acceptable family', deb. Her father peddled his tin-ware on the streets of Fall River. While that may have been the sort of go-get-em business sense Andrew admired, it seems to have been one of the reasons her stepdaughters looked down on Abby. Although the Durfees and Grays were old families in the region there was no money in Abby's branch of the family, and although I do think Abby has a pleasant face, she was no raving beauty. There were plenty of 'old maids' in New England at the time and Abby appears to have been one of 'em!

I think we are all having a few difficulties with what was exactly meant in some of the words and expressions in the letter. I've read a lot of 19th century literature, journals, letters etc and I admit I'm confused! We have here, I think, a mingling of 19th century English and expressions used by the Irish poor.

'Folks' could mean (as debbie suggested) of Borden blood. Un-well could mean mental afflictions. My English grandmother used unwell in the sense of physical illness as well as a euphemism for menses ('being unwell.) She was born in 1883. I never heard her mention it in connection with mental illness but then again I can't recall her talking about the subject. It may be an American take on the expression.

'Things go on there that you should not see' is I must say, quite troubling and could cover mental disorders. However, in the gossip of the town it is not Abby who is regarded as strange, but Lizzie. Remember, her own cousin who gave an interview sticking up for her when she was arrested, described Lizzie as 'peculiar'. There were others who thought her so, too, and said so. Someone said she was 'ugly' (tempered.) What if what was shocking was Lizzie trying to rule the roost, sulking or showing her temper, maybe even hitting out?

[irina]

I agree with Curryong's comments about Lizzie. There are many small comments about her being odd. Some are more specific, such as her passing right by guests visiting in the home as if they weren't there, but at other times she was friendly. (In conjunction with this I once questioned her eyesight as I know she wore glasses. We have also discussed here whether Lizzie and/or her mother could have had hyperthyroidism.)

However we have to balance this out with the fact that Lizzie had friends, went on holiday with a group of friends at Marion, had friends who stuck by her during and even after the crime, held respected positions in her church, and probably a number of other things we can think of. If she was severely bi-polar I doubt all this would have been so. Plus she had a lengthy trip to Europe which would not have been a good idea if she was prone to severe mental illness.

We know little of Abby. Lizzie said she was a "mean old thing" and they all "hate" her. Whatever that meant. There are hints that Abby was not entirely meek and mild but we don't know much more. Bridget seemed to sincerely like Abby and I never had an idea that Bridget felt she was caring for Abby in any medical way. Allegedly Bridget told her friend that she felt sorry for Lizzie or something, and that she liked Lizzie. Who knows if there is any truth that Bridget said any of that, but if she did it's another small insight.

Whatever went on or not we have no tradition of the family being shunned or rejected by the community until after Lizzie's trial. They weren't extremely social but all of them had some social connexions.

Andrew had some issue with the church at some time. Price of the pew or something? You don't suppose he rejected religion? Like, was an open atheist or something? That might not be comfortable for a young, Irish Catholic maid.

[Curryong]

I believe before 1885 the Bordens attended the First Congregation Church in Fall River. There was a quarrel about various fees payable to the church increasing, and Andrew refused to pay them. The family then left the church for the Central Congregation Church, though I think Emma still continued to sometimes go back to her old place of worship. By all accounts, before 1885 the Bordens just occupied their pew each Sunday, and Emma, Abby and Andrew continued that habit at Central Church afterwards, form only. However Lizzie, encouraged by the Rev Buck and the Rev Jubb, became a very enthusiastic participant in everything. (Though Emma grew more religious and Lizzie less so in their later years.)

I can't remember when Andrew's quarrel with the First Church occurred. Can't find it. If it was 1881, when Sarah or Mary were employed at no. 92, it might explain much. I don't think that Andrew would be blaspheming but if he said harsh words about the church a devout Catholic might consider it shocking.

I don't know the dates of Sarah and Mary's employment with the Bordens, but you will note that Lizzie's flowering and most of her outside friendships date post 1885. In 1881, when Sarah wrote the letter, the Bordens may well have been somewhat socially isolated, apart from relatives' visits.

[Curryong]

BOBO, you couldn't please, pretty please, give us dates for when Sarah Welch and Mary Green/Grein were employed by rhe Bordens, could you?

[Curryong]

This is the Mass. State Census 1865. Households.

Andrew J Borden Age 42 Est. birth year 1823. Widowed. Born in Mass. Occupation furniture dealer.

Elizabeth Morse Age 29 Est. birth year 1836. Single. Born in Mass. Occupation housekeeper.

Emma Borden Age 14 Est. birth year 1851. Born in Mass.

Lizzie A Borden Age 4 Born in Mass.

Sarah Welch Age 21 years. Est birth year 1844. Single. Born in Ireland. Occupation servant.


(Elizabeth Morse was the dead Sarah Borden's first cousin, also first cousin to John Vinnicum, by the way.)

So Sarah was working for the widowed Andrew in 1865.

In the Federal Census of 1880 all Borden family members are listed, and then underneath, Mary Greene, white, female, age 35, servant, single, born in Ireland, father born in Ireland, mother born in Ireland. So Mary is already working at no. 92 in 1880.

There is no servant listed on the Federal census of 1870, just the family. The servant might have stayed away for the night, but I don't think so. I think the Bordens must have been between servants on that Census night.

[irina]

When Sarah Welch worked for the Bordens in the 1860s Abby wasn't in the family, Lizzie was a young child and Emma almost a young woman. In 1881 presumably Elizabeth Morse was not there. A common thread would be Andrew.

With page 2 of the letter is missing I don't think we can be sure page 3 is still about the Bordens. The letter in total says to me that Mary Grein is seeking different employment. Her friend Sarah Welch tells her about the Hunts, a good family. She comments on the Bordens as good folk but they have problems beyond their control. If Mary Grein is already working there then it is a bit of irony that Sarah writes about things going on there you shouldn't see. Presumably Mary would know these things first hand. Page 3 might comment on a third family mentioned on page 2, whose home is full of woes.

I think maybe the word "folks" instead of family might be a way of distancing the Bordens from more normal people. I think of archaic mentions of "faerie folk" or "little folk". To me this sets the subject apart as a separate tribe unto themselves. On the other hand it may have no special meaning. I use the word frequently to refer to people collectively and avoid specifics.

Letters were kept in those days for a number of reasons. Letters were rare and people died young. Letters were keepsakes. That this one was in a bible implies to me that is where the receiver may have kept it because it was important. Maybe page 2 had something specific that was referred to away from the body of the letter. Perhaps there was another family name to contact or stay away from and Mary Grein kept that page in her pocket. Perhaps there was an address thereon. Sometimes paper was in short supply. Perhaps a note was scribbled on the back of page 2 and it was re-used.

It bothers me that there is an admonition to "be carefull". Careful of what? Was there a physical risk or a spiritual risk? Did Andrew smack the bottoms of women perhaps or surreptitiously feel breasts? Was there cruelty of some sort? Were Lizzie and Emma cruelly punished when they were young? I also think if a family member had epileptic seizures, narcolepsy or sleep walked, it could explain some things. To a possibly superstitious Irish maid that might be frightening.

The suggestion that all the locks were to keep someone in rather than out doesn't work for me. The family members did their own locking. Lizzie locked her bedroom and she and Emma oversaw the front door locks. Andrew locked and unlocked his bedroom so presumably Abby did likewise. The side door was locked or unlocked as needed. Bridget;s key was hung on the wall under a shelf in the kitchen where any malefactor could have obtained it. One sinister angle I can see in the locks would be an insane or dangerous relative who had the ability or right to enter the home. There is nothing for sure in this direction. It could explain a lot but all we come up with is Uncle John was odd and there are the unlikely, melodramatic tales of Andrew having a spurned, crazy, illegitimate son.

[irina]

Another way to think about this letter would be to imagine an actual face to face conversation between Sarah Welch and Mary Grein. They both have experience working for Andrew Borden, though decades apart. Welch's perspective is from when she was young. In 1881 both women are about 35 an are more worldly. Undoubtedly they would say far more than in this short letter and they would elaborate. We can't know how they would have filled in details, but how serious were certain comments in the letter? Would the admonition "be carefull" be said with a laugh and a wink or a shudder and cringe?

Where was Sarah Welch in 1881? Was she in the Fall River area where she could have heard additional gossip or was she far away? She could have had lots of contacts over the years in FR but it would be different I think if she continued to live in the area. Are her comments in the letter based solely on her experiences or are they collective wisdom from herself and the Irish maid population?

[phineas]

If Mary is working for the Bordens in 1880 during the Census, then it's quite possible she is still working for them in August of 1881 when the letter is dated and the fact that Sarah uses the present tense "be careful" seems to indicate she is still working for them at that time, so the line on page three about the house being full of woes and to leave now is likely the Borden's.

[debbiediablo]

I don't know about Abby being from an 'acceptable family', deb. Her father peddled his tin-ware on the streets of Fall River. While that may have been the sort of go-get-em business sense Andrew admired, it seems to have been one of the reasons her stepdaughters looked down on Abby. Although the Durfees and Grays were old families in the region there was no money in Abby's branch of the family, and although I do think Abby has a pleasant face, she was no raving beauty. There were plenty of 'old maids' in New England at the time and Abby appears to have been one of 'em!


'Folks' could mean (as debbie suggested) of Borden blood. Un-well could mean mental afflictions. My English grandmother used unwell in the sense of physical illness as well as a euphemism for menses ('being unwell.) She was born in 1883. I never heard her mention it in connection with mental illness but then again I can't recall her talking about the subject. It may be an American take on the expression.

'Things go on there that you should not see' is I must say, quite troubling and could cover mental disorders. However, in the gossip of the town it is not Abby who is regarded as strange, but Lizzie. Remember, her own cousin who gave an interview sticking up for her when she was arrested, described Lizzie as 'peculiar'. There were others who thought her so, too, and said so. Someone said she was 'ugly' (tempered.) What if what was shocking was Lizzie trying to rule the roost, sulking or showing her temper, maybe even hitting out?

Following the Civil War was a buyers' market for brides although many still died in childbirth so second wives/step-mothers were commonplace. Nonetheless, Abby was skipped over the first time for some reason and I don't see it as either appearance or family connections. I think she, herself, had some defect.

I do agree with Curryong that Lizzie was likely peculiar by the time she reached young adulthood. That would be my expectation given her upbringing.

To give a snapshot of what it's like to live with a bipolar parent, this happened about three weeks ago. Bipolar mother with 5 year-old and 14 month-old daughters. Daughter comes home from school with a half-consumed juice box. Mom tells kid to take her after school medication with the leftover juice. Child asks for water instead. Mother insists on juice. Child (who likely will be bipolar as an adult) throws a tantrum because she doesn't like the juice. After two minutes Mom relents and lets her take the meds with water. THEN Mom calls Crisis Line, not once but SIX times in SEVEN minutes, to complain about the kid. Finally a therapist goes out to the house, only to find Mom completely unhinged because the kid would not take her medicine. Never mind this is now TWO HOURS since the medicine went into the mouth. Mom is screaming and sobbing and threatening to hit the kids unless someone can take them overnight. The therapist arranges 24-hour emergency respite for the 5 year-old and her younger sister. Then, to end the visit, Mom kicks the new puppy who has pooped on the floor, calls him a @*#*!^&@#^@ER and slams him into the dog crate. The next day Human Services appear because neighbors have reported a fight in the front yard (prior to the medicine tantrum) where Mom slaps her elderly step-father in the face.

This is not unique; it's a spot-on example of how life works for children with a bipolar mother who is poorly controlled by medication or simply not medicated. Often these kids have the genetic predisposition for bipolar, and sometimes they develop a co-morbid personality disorder from being exposed to this kind of toxic parenting.

Afterward, when the dust is settled, Mom is contrite, berates herself for being a bad mother, begs for help and advice and mentoring. Except it takes endless modeling, therapy, medication trials, and endless teaching of self-care (don't get too tired, avoid stress, healthy diet, medication compliance) and implementation of data driven parenting strategies to enable even small changes.

Imagine what growing up with this would be like in the mid to late 1800s.

When there is dysfunction in a family, the dysfunction impacts everyone, all the time, forever. I used to laugh at Abby's frugality for wearing Andrew's boots; now I view it as a sign of mental instability. Giving the house over for use by Abby's sister may have been as much to ensure safe care for Abby after Andrew's death as to keep Priscilla in her home. What better way to instill gratitude in the one person Abby trusted and who appeared to love her.

Depending on the situation, I think the locks were to keep some people safely locked in and some people locked out for the safety of those locked in.

This is a new theory for me, and I'm liking it a lot.

[Franz]

Wow Bobo. That's a barn burner of a letter. Fascinating. House of woes...things you should not see....not well. Do inquiring minds want to know!!! Thanks for sharing, I'm completely fascinated.

Wow... me too completely fascinated. Thank you BOBO!

[debbiediablo]

Two more elements that would support Abby's mental illness, in this case paranoia:

1) she thinks they are being poisoned; that's an incredibly common manifestation of psychosis although my experience has been more with persons with schizoid disorders who are busy throwing out poisoned food.

2) "they' took her keys....most people would say my husband borrowed them or the kids took them or the maid needed them this afternoon..."they" is often an imaginary entity similar to one that attacked the beloved dog of my friend's schizoaffective mother. Her Mom had a serious relapse during which she had her elderly collie euthanized because she became totally convinced it had been microchipped by aliens who were planning to beam her up to the mothership which is where her second husband (who was killed in an explosion) ended up.

2 edits: grammar!!

[irina]

I can go for the "they took my key" as a mental issue. I can go for a middle aged adult referring to food poisoning as a sinister human caused poisoning. Wearing Andrew's boots more likely has to do with the abominable shoes that were made in those days plus the mores of women needing to wear small sized shoes. Perhaps Abby had small shoes that hurt her feet but were socially acceptable.

Whether or not Abby was mentally off, would Sarah Welch have experienced this in 1865 or so? And are you sure there was a strong market for brides after the Civil War? Lots of women, at least in the south, I understand went without marriage because so many men were killed or maimed in the war. Sees to me there would have been a surplus of women and a shortage of husbands. Maybe that's what you meant though, that a lot of younger, attractive, possibly fertile women would have been available to Andrew? Perhaps I misunderstood.

[taosjohn]

Two more elements that would support Abby's mental illness, in this case paranoia:

1) she thinks they are being poisoned; that's an incredibly common manifestation of psychosis although my experience has been more with persons with schizoid disorders who are busy throwing out poisoned food.

2) "they' took her keys....most people would say my husband borrowed them or the kids took them or the maid needed them this afternoon..."they" is often an imaginary entity similar to one that attacked the beloved dog of one of my friend's schizoaffective mothers. Her Mom had a serious relapse during which she had her elderly collie euthanized because she became totally convinced it has been microchipped by aliens who were planning to beam her up to the mothership which is where her second husband (who was killed in an explosion) ended up.

And there you picked up the spare on the Crazy Abby theory before I even got here! That is more or less what I was coming here to post...

I did have another thought on the "took my keys" though-- I wondered if "they" was Andrew and Emma taking her keys so that Emma could get in when she came home from Fairhaven. Do we know that Emma had her own key to get in if she arrived late.

[debbiediablo]

I can go for the "they took my key" as a mental issue. I can go for a middle aged adult referring to food poisoning as a sinister human caused poisoning. Wearing Andrew's boots more likely has to do with the abominable shoes that were made in those days plus the mores of women needing to wear small sized shoes. Perhaps Abby had small shoes that hurt her feet but were socially acceptable.

Whether or not Abby was mentally off, would Sarah Welch have experienced this in 1865 or so? And are you sure there was a strong market for brides after the Civil War? Lots of women, at least in the south, I understand went without marriage because so many men were killed or maimed in the war. Sees to me there would have been a surplus of women and a shortage of husbands. Maybe that's what you meant though, that a lot of younger, attractive, possibly fertile women would have been available to Andrew? Perhaps I misunderstood.

Yes, that is what I meant...poorly expressed on my part. What I meant about a buyer's market is that the men had a wide choice due to more women than men after the Civil War.

[BOBO]

[quote="BOBO"]I will post this letter from the Mary Grein family descendants... The photo copy of this letter has been in my possession since 2006. The copy I have is very faint, I can not get it to print to where it's readable.
It was written from Sarah Welch to Mary Grein in August of 1881. The letter was written on note book paper of 5 1/2 x 7. There are 3 pages of this letter written, with page 2 missing.
Page 1 reads... "Regards, there is work in the Hunt's family. they are good family. The borden family is good folk but be carefull they are not well. things go on there that you should not see. maybe there is work that you can find.
PAGE 2 IS MISSING.. Page 3 reads... that house is full of woes... leave now.
That letter ends on that note... WHAT SAY YOU??[/quot

[debbiediablo]

I doubt there is a person here who wouldn't love to hear the stories...so why not post here in the thread and save yourself a lot of typing and put all of us on the same page, the same accurate page, at the same time...

[taosjohn]

PLEASE STOP!!!!.... What is going on??? I posted this letter after YEARS of BEGGING for permission!

I stated that THERE IS A STORY that goes with the letter. I ask for PMs, from ANYONE that would like to hear what goes with the letter. I HAVE RECEIVED ONE PM!!! Yet everyone seems to have an opinion!! How can you folks offer an opinion ON NOTHING BUT A LETTER?? THERE IS A STORY BEHIND THE LETTER!!!
I realize that folks don't want to get caught up into "he said, she said", but until you have heard THE STORY BEHIND THE LETTER...... EAZE UP!!!.

Forgive me, but you didn't actually ask for PM's-- you offered them with the qualification that most of us would think the stories pointless? At least that's how I read it?

I didn't want to put you to the trouble if it was going to seem pointless...

[Curryong]

Please BOBO, please tell us about the stories, more letters, anything you feel able to impart.
I, for one, would love to know when the two women worked for the Borden family, so that I can, in my own mind, figure out a beginning, an end and a middle to correlate with what we know about other events in the Bordens' lives.

[twinsrwe]

BOBO, I agree with Debbie and taosjohn. You believe there was incest going on in the Borden house, but have given us no information as to why you believe this. The partial quotes from this letter that you have posted, do not indicate that incest is what Sarah was referring to.

I’d like you to post the entire contents of both pages 1 and 3 of this letter. Then post the story behind this letter, here on the forum, and allow each member to decide for themselves, if the story is pointless or not. Otherwise all you have left us with, are our interpretations and opinions on very vague partial parts of this letter.

[twinsrwe]

I would also like to know when both Mary Grein and Sarah Welsh's employment with the Bordens began and ended.

[Aamartin]

I have been thinking about this letter a lot-- someone warning someone to leave a job is sort of a big deal. Especially is that person had a similar set up to Bridget's. She didn't do as much as some maids and was paid relatively well....

[Curryong]

I've always thought though, Anthony, that Bridget not having little work in comparison to other domestics had as much to do with the Bordens' love of secrecy and privacy than anything else. Andrew didn't want, for obvious reasons, an employee anywhere near his safe, and Abby probably thought 'I shan't have anything to do if the maid takes over everything', which I think she would hate. She probably was worried about possible breakages in the parlour, and also wanted 'the girls' to have tasks of their own. In case a miracle happened and either of them married they would want to know how a household was run too. I do think that Andrew was the main mover behind all the locks and keys and physical division of the house, though.

I agree about the letter and I think it would be lovely if BOBO posted all of it and the relevant dates. Please, BOBO!