Abby's Mincemeat Pies For the Holidays?

[irina]

In a lighter mood, the holidays are almost upon us and it's a great time to discuss Abby's mincemeat pies. Our search engine shows not much history in this subject.

Mincemeat goes way back, at least to Medieval times and probably long before that. English Henry V served mince pies at his coronation celebration held on April 9, 1413. It also snowed that day.

Oliver Cromwell banned Christmas and all the festive foods that went with the holiday. When the monarchy was restored, so were mince pies. (The Marvellous History of Mince Pies by Andrew Webb www.lovefood.com/journal/features/13143/mince-pies )

Most of the mince pie recipes out there that include rosewater call for the rosewater to go into the pastry. This is apparently not how Abby would have used the rosewater.

There is a recipe likely to be similar to what Abby would have made at lizziebordenwarps&wefts.com/tag/mincemeat-pie/ Abby Borden's Mince Meat Pies, posted 12/22/2010. This version uses rosewater in the actual mincemeat as well as brandy or sherry which it is noted Andrew may or may not have allowed in the house.

The recipe calls for a meat base with a wide possibility of meats including venison. When I was little my mom boiled down elk neck which is very tough, for the base of her mincemeat. Fruits, spices, etc. were added later and she canned it. The recipe likely similar to what Abby used also calls for molasses which is something I think I would use sparingly. I also wouldn't want the rosewater in the mince meat. It is noted that the Amish use rosewater in their mince pies.

Heaven knows where anyone gets rosewater in the US these days. I have a bottle brought back from Turkey. Middle Eastern people make an interesting salad with finely hand cut carrots and other vegetables plus rosewater and salt. It is possible to make your own rosewater but the deer always eat my roses before I can do anything with them.

Besides pears, mincemeat is one of my favourite subjects. I need to make some for the holidays. Happily for the Bordens a wide range of meats can be used in the mix. Some sources list goose as a possible ingredient and another lists sheep tongue. That's getting close to mutton. I do wonder what kind of meat Abby used in her mincemeat.

[Curryong]

Mince pies were very popular when I was a child, served beautifully warm. I used to go Carol singing with my friends from door to door, as the tradition is in England. It was of course very cold and as well as a little money (pennies) we would sometimes be given mince pies.

The tradition does go way back. I believe that the first mince pies were shaped rather like Cornish pasties are today, in the shape of a manger, as a tribute to Christ's birth. I didn't realise that mince pies were eaten in the US. I've never been there in the winter. You are right regarding Abby's pies, I think. I can't imagine a temperance household putting any spirits in their mince pies!

I used to make Christmas pudding and mince pies when the family were here at home. Now I buy home-made ones from a charity. In Britain and Australia we use beef suet from the butcher (or at least I used to.) I've never heard of rose water being used, except by Abby, but I'm sure it is an old tradition.

This is an old family recipe I used. The mincemeat was prepared earlier and then baked in shortcrust pastry in little rounds, the way we eat them here. The tops are dusted with a little fine sugar before serving.
3 and a half pounds of currants or chopped seeded raisins
1 and three quarter pounds of finely chopped beef suet
1 and three quarter pound of chopped apples
4 ounces of finely chopped mixed candied peel
1 pound of fine moist sugar
1 dessert spoon mixed spice
Juice and finely grated rind of two oranges
Same with two lemons
Half bottle of brandy
Half bottle ginger wine

Mix together the currants, suet, apples, peel, sugar, mixed spice, and rind. Mix brandy, ginger wine and orange and lemon juices. Pour the liquid over the mincemeat and press down hard with the hand. Pack into prepared preserving jars and seal tightly.

This makes a lot, but mince pies are eaten into January here and taken to parties.

[Aamartin]

I just can't stand mincemeat!

[MysteryReader]

I've never had mincemeat before. It doesn't sound so good. We have lamb for Thanksgiving and Christmas because we have an Australian member :-) While I've had it before in the past, it took some getting used to. Turkey, I have at my parent's house.

I don't think Abby would have cooked with any type of spirits.

[Curryong]

http://www.care2.com/greenliving/rose-w ... own.html/2

[irina]

Thanks for the rosewater recipe, Curryong. That's easier than what I have seen before. If I could just get the roses before the deer get them.

Your mincemeat recipe is about like mine but I don't use ginger wine. As I recall the recipe that could have been Abby's, on that copyright site, didn't have raisins or currents. Maybe I missed it but something seemed odd. I put leftover jelly in mincemeat. Black current jelly is nice.

Anthony's reaction is fairly typical for many Americans. Meanwhile mincemeat is one of my favourite things. Made with boiled elk neck. (Elk are similar to England's red deer.)

I doubt the Bordens would have had spirits in their mincemeat but they might have. Maybe they used hard cider?

I was surprised to see how English mincemeat is. Recently I wanted to know more about Tudor cooking. We hear about the breads, pies and trenchers among other things. I know they didn't have the kinds of flour and sugar we have today so I was interested to know how they did things. I was surprised at the different kinds of "pies" that were made because the dough took the place of serving dishes that were in short supply. I was amazed too about the live blackbirds in the pie that had a lid made of coffin bread. The coffin bread impressed me as being more like a modelling clay. What I read said it wasn't necessarily supposed to e eated so I suppose that's what the dogs ate under the table. Early dog biscuits~coffin bread.

[Curryong]

And very delicious they found it, I'm sure! Cornish pasties were, of course designed with a rim on the pastry as a kind of handle so the tin miners of Cornwall could work and eat their lunch at the same time. I'm interested in the history of food, too and Tudor cookery does seem to have been very varied, as far as meats go anyway. (Huge variety of birds, both wild and bred for the table!) Andrew wouldn't have been confined to squab!

Elk sounds very intriguing to me. Venison isn't eaten a lot here, though I did sample it once in England. I found it a rather gamey and tough meat, I'm afraid. A lot of people don't seem to care for mincemeat. I suppose it is an acquired taste. Christmas pudding has much of the same sort of fruit but with brandy.

People then don't seem to have eaten huge amounts of vegetables, and I suppose the lower down in the social order a person was the more likely they were to be eating herbs and plants that grew wild and in the hedgerows. At least it was natural. By the Bordens' day people were wrecking their general health with white baker's bread, sugary commercial jams and tinned food. The Bordens ate potatoes of course, but where were the salad vegetables in the summer?

[irina]

I would assume the Bordens had pickled vegetables. After all Andrew had his vinegar business.

It has been written that Henry VIII et al were probably on the edge of scurvy from lack of fruits & vegetables. Strawberries were Henry's favorite fruit it is written. For a lot of history vegetables were considered something the poor ate. Mincemeat may have been an important source of fruits at least.

I have a book that was the first book written by a woman. She went on the Crusades way back before Chaucer was born. It was like a diary of her trip. She said in Italy they were served unappetizing, wilted, salty vegetables called salat. I mentioned earlier that the Arabs make salad with finely chopped vegetables, salt and rosewater. Arabs eat a lot of vegetables.

I want to make Cornish pasties someday. I'm just afraid I might not get them thoroughly cooked. They are something I think I would really enjoy. Pretty much anything in a pie crust appeals to me.

[Curryong]

Getting really off topic here, but I wonder whether you have tried Maids of Honour. The recipe rumouredly dates back to medieval times (Henry VIII's court) and these are one of my favourite cakes. They are quite moorish and I don't know whether Abby would have liked them, though!

http://om/recipe/maids-of-honour-old-en ... kes-216860

I do wonder what the Bordens had for Christmas dinner. Did they go all out and have turkey and all the trimmings? Do Americans have pumpkin pie as dessert? Did they, I wonder? Poor Bridget would have eaten her Christmas dinner on her own I suppose, after the Bordens had eaten, thinking of her family in Ireland no doubt.

We have Christmas pud in many households for our dessert here in Australia, but it's usually so hot at Christmas things like ice-cream cakes and puddings have become very popular. We also have prawns with our meal (very large shrimps!)

[MysteryReader]

The link didn't work. What's Maids of Honour?

[irina]

I have not made Maids of Honour but have read the recipe before.

I imagine we can find a site that would cover Christmas customs in Lizzie's area and time. I think we have a thread here about it. I think turkey as we know it today is kind of modern. Goose has been traditional in many places and many times. We eat a lot of pumpkin pie here and it is traditional for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Pumpkin or squash was a major food source for the earliest Europeans here. Puddings, especially like the English make have never been real popular here so far as I know. There is an old colonial recipe called Hasty Pudding which I have never been able to make work. It was supposed to be a staple food~as were Johnny Cakes like Bridget fixed for the last breakfast. The problem for me with Hasty Pudding is tying to make the stuff get thick with only a couple tablespoons of cornmeal in something like a half gallon of milk, baked for 3 or 4 hours. I never figured that one out. My gall bladder doesn't like Johnny Cakes and I never really got the point of those either, except they are quick cornbread.

I have no idea what Bridget's Christmases may have been like in Ireland. She came from a big family. Were they poor? Did they have enough food? I would imagine Christmas Eve Mass would have defined the holiday and Advent before that.

I have been awful sick & it turned to pneumonia but I must be better because I was looking at recipes for Liege Waffles and how to make my own pearl sugar. Think I finally found the right recipe for that.

[Aamartin]

my favorite cake and overall dessert is a chocoflan-- and I can finally make my own!

[twinsrwe]

... I believe that the first mince pies were shaped rather like Cornish pasties are today, in the shape of a manger, as a tribute to Christ's birth. ...

Cornish Pasties!!! I am a Cornishman; my ancestors came from Cornwall England.

My home town is Mineral Point, Wisconsin, which was settled in 1827, becoming a lead and zinc mining center during the 19th and early 20th centuries. Mineral Point remained an important lead mining center during the 1840s. Although the most easily accessible lead deposits on the surface were being exhausted by this time, new immigrants began to arrive with more refined techniques for extracting ore. The largest group came from Cornwall, which had been a mining center for centuries. Experienced Cornish miners were attracted to the lead mining opportunities in Mineral Point, and by 1845 roughly half of the town's population had Cornish ancestry.

Cornish pasties were, and still are, a main-stay dish in Mineral Point.

The traditional Christmas dinner in my family is the Cornish Pasty. I’ve never heard of the Cornish Pasty referred to as being in the shape of a manger, as a tribute to Christ's birth. What is the original of this?

… Cornish pasties were, of course designed with a rim on the pastry as a kind of handle so the tin miners of Cornwall could work and eat their lunch at the same time.

Yes, the crimped edge of the crust was used as a handle, which was then discarded due to the high levels of arsenic in many of the tin mines.

[twinsrwe]

… I want to make Cornish pasties someday. I'm just afraid I might not get them thoroughly cooked. They are something I think I would really enjoy. Pretty much anything in a pie crust appeals to me.

Very seldom do I make the small D-shaped pasties, which are the traditional way of making them. My favorite way of making pasty, is in a 9x13 inch pan. I bake it at 350 degrees for 1 ½ hours, then take a fork and run it down through the middle of the pasty – if I can push the fork through the mixture easily, then it is done – if the fork does not push through the mixture easily, then I bake it another ½ hour. The time it takes to bake a 9x13 inch pan of pasty largely depends on the kind of meat used; traditional steak or non-traditional hamburger. It also depends on what kind of steak I use; I use three different kinds in my pasties – chuck, top sirloin and round.

[twinsrwe]

I’ve never had mincemeat; it sounds like something I may like. I’m a huge fan of Saffron cake, with mixed dried fruit, and currants or raisins. I also like the Traditional Christmas Pudding.

[irina]

That sounds interesting, Twins. Thanks for the suggestion. I saw a program where one version of pasties had turnip in them. I think I would like that.

I just started a thread about New England Christmas and Thanksgiving over at "Stay to Tea".

[twinsrwe]

You're welcome. Irina. Turnips are an ingredient in the traditional Cornish Pasty. My twin brother loves turnips in his pasty, but I prefer my pasty without the turnips. The traditional pasty also calls for suet, which is the hard fat around the kidneys and loins in beef. I use 3-4 pats of butter across the top of my 9x13 inch pasty, instead of suet. I find the butter is much more flavorful than suet.

I will check out your new thread!

[Curryong]

I'm sorry to hear that you have been so ill irina. You've got to look after yourself since your winter is nearly here you know!

I am so sorry the link didn't work, MysteryReader. I'll try again!

http://www.food.com/recipe/maids-of-hon ... kes-216860

It wasn't cornish pasties that traditionally were manger-shaped, twins, but mince pies, which in those days seem to have been a rather odd mixture of minced meat and dried fruits.

By the way, as we are going completely off-topic here, I am a grandmother again! Cute little twins Jaxon and Gemma were born to my daughter on the 21st (Aus time) and all well. We are all very pleased.

[irina]

Congratulations, Curryong!

Thanks for the information, Twins.

[debbiediablo]

There are a few things I absolutely do no eat and mincemeat is one of them, along with most wild game and raisins, dates and prunes. My grandmother's mincemeat pies were highly acclaimed...but I stuck to her perfect sugar cookies and molasses cookies.

[MysteryReader]

I am so sorry the link didn't work, MysteryReader. I'll try again!

http://www.food.com/recipe/maids-of-hon ... kes-216860

It wasn't cornish pasties that traditionally were manger-shaped, twins, but mince pies, which in those days seem to have been a rather odd mixture of minced meat and dried fruits.

By the way, as we are going completely off-topic here, I am a grandmother again! Cute little twins Jaxon and Gemma were born to my daughter on the 21st (Aus time) and all well. We are all very pleased.

Thanks! and Congrats!!

[Curryong]

Thanks! They are both lovely and my daughter's recovering!

Well, of course prunes can have a bit of an unfortunate effect, and perhaps it was needed years ago with some of the diets. I have a very old Mrs Beeton's book that tells you how to train servants, whip up medicines, and get rid of bugs, among a thousand other things. The recipes in that are heavily meat-laden and stodgy.

I don't think Bridget's family probably ate well at all, at Christmas or otherwise, until some of the older ones started handing over their wage packets anyway. Probably a lot of broths and potatoes and eking things out. If they came within sniffing distance of a Christmas goose they would have been lucky.

[Curryong]

I would like the recipe for Anthony's Chocoflan, please!

[Aamartin]

Ingredients:

Caramel flavored Ice Cream Topping or Cajeta (both give same results, ice cream topping half the price of Cajeta)
Chocolate Cake Mix (Mix according to directions on box-- I have used mixes and homemade cake batter-- mixes seem better actually!)

Oven to 350

Pour caramel/cajeta (a good half cup) into bottom of well sprayed fluted tube pan (bundt cake pan)

Mix cake and pour in evenly

Then... Set in a large roaster pan with about 2 inches of water in it...

Make your flan:

4 ounces cream cheese
4 eggs
14 oz sweetened condensed milk
12 oz evaporated milk
a dash of vanilla

Mix above in blender and then slowly pour over cake batter. As it bakes it settles to the bottom...

Cover pan tightly with foil and bake for 2 hours.

Remove from oven and water bath and let cool on a rack-- I have a gas stove top so I just set it there for about 15 minutes.

Invert onto large serving plate or tall cake keeper... Put it and then keep it in the fridge until gone..

[Curryong]

Thank you very much, Anthony. It sounds and looks absolutely delish! I shall try it soon.
Trying to keep on topic, what a joke, I'm sure Abby would have really appreciated it!

[irina]

Something about this system, everybody's posts don't come through just at the they are written. Important to see how posts catch up. I just aught up with Twins' further explanation about Cornishmen in Wisconsin.

Anthony's house seems like it would be an excellent destination for visiting. You are a fantastic cook!

I'm having duck l'orange for two on Thanksgiving and won't have a lot of other things because that's very rich and there are only two of us.

Considering Bridget's Christmas, might the family in Ireland if they were poor, have received charity from the Church or somewhere? I think of Frank McCourt's "Angela's Ashes", but that would be almost 100 years after Bridget's childhood. Curryong, do you suppose Bridget taught Abby the custom of rewarding the servants on Boxing Day? Do you suppose she got a gift or bonus then?

[MysteryReader]

Anthony,

Do you keep replacing the water in the roasting pan during the 2 hours it's baking? And is it set to 350 for the whole 2 hours?

[Aamartin]

no, 350 won't cook the water out. yes, 350. Some flan recipes have different temps-- but I have found this way to be the best for a moist flan.

[MysteryReader]

Thanks, Anthony! I've never heard of flan so I might make it for Christmas :-)

[Curryong]

Before 1869 the Roman Catholic Church wouldn't have been able to help anyone as it was disestablished. Roman Catholic Schools were also suppressed. After that date Bridget and her family might have been helped, depending on how prosperous the local diocese was. I have heard of several charities that helped the poor at Christmas; shawls, coals, candles, sixpenny pieces, that sort of thing.