Lizzie's Love Life

This the place to have frank, but cordial, discussions of the Lizzie Borden case

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Lizzie's Love Life

Postby NancyDrew » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:21 am

Okay, so I got to thinking; why didn't Lizzie (or Emma, for that matter) ever date anyone? Why no suitors?

By the time of the murders, they were both over 30 and considered spinsters, but their step-mother Abby married late in life (I think she was in her late 30's when she tied the knot with Andrew.) Didn't either of them dream about or want a husband, children, even grandchildren?

I can speculate that Andrew was such a miserable person that any would-be gentleman callers would be wary of trying to date Lizzie or her sister. However, once she was acquitted, had all that money, a nice house, etc. I would think there would be at least some single guys who would have tried to keep company with her.

We all kind of accept Lizzie and Emma as solitary figures, forever destined to live a live of one-ness. But...why? I'd enjoy hearing anyone's guess on this. Just think how different life would have been for our Lisbeth had she married a man in her 20's, moved out of Second street, had a bunch of babies, a family of her own. Anyone else wonder about this/

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby PattiG157 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:10 pm

I've wondered about this myself. Most women back then had homes and children to take care of, but not Lizzie and Emma. I do believe the home was a dysfunctional one, which could've affected both ladies' desire to date. But didn't Lizzie date David Anthony for awhile -- the same man some people think committed the crimes? I'm not sure what I believe, but I like hearing all opinions whenever I can. Then there is Lizzie's "relationship" with Nance O'Neill, although we can never prove or disprove that, either. Let me know what you think about all this.

:smiliecolors:
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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby NancyDrew » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:53 am

Good to hear from you, Patti. Ugh..the Dave Anthony story. No one knows if she truly dated him or not. There is, as you know, a whole 'nother story about him.

Have you ever gone through the archives here? The old posts, from way back in the early 00's. A couple of folks here were convinced Lizzie and Anthony were lovers, that she got pregnant (and had abortion) and that Anthony murdered the parents in a fit of rage. Problem is, there is NO evidence to back any of it up...just speculation.

Lizzie and Emma both are such odd figures.

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby PattiG157 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:47 am

:smiliecolors: That's so true! I've never gotten proof of the Dave Anthony story cause I guess it's hard to corroborate. I'll go through the archives to see if I can learn more...thanks!
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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby twinsrwe » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:55 am

Patti, following are 16 of the 17 threads on this forum, and the archives, about David Anthony. (The 17th thread is the one we are currently on.) The threads are listed by the date each thread began (I hope. :grin: ).

"Gramma & Ruby Cameron": http://tinyurl.com/kn9lm5r

"The Servant's Story": http://tinyurl.com/lf424a7

"The Ruby Story": http://tinyurl.com/kne32yx

"Here Is The Trickey-McHenry News Story From The "Privy": http://tinyurl.com/y7ss9s29

"Ruby 2": http://tinyurl.com/lv5nlj7

More Ruby: http://tinyurl.com/y8bhz2nx

Ruby cameron and David Anthony: http://tinyurl.com/ycbfv9hg

ANTHONY Family- More: http://tinyurl.com/y9vtknbk

Ruby Francis Cameron: http://tinyurl.com/y9xt5w3y

Lizzie at Maplecroft: http://tinyurl.com/ya2zfww2

David Anthony: http://tinyurl.com/y7bjcmua

David Anthony, Ruby, pictures: http://tinyurl.com/yd8da68l

Ruby Cameron, Ellsworth American Articles: http://tinyurl.com/y8eh2kjv

Lizzie's Looks and Suitors: http://tinyurl.com/kq6o3vh

Exploring the David Anthony/Ruby Cameron theory: http://tinyurl.com/ycqn3mxp

Intro and New Book: http://tinyurl.com/yc8azehw

Note: These are the threads that I am aware of; there may or may not be more threads.
Last edited by twinsrwe on Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby mbhenty » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:43 pm

It is interesting to note that Lizzie's summer home in Swansea and David Antony's place in the same town were only about 3/4 of a mile apart. Lizzie's home (or her parent's) was on Gardner's Neck Road while Antony's home was on Bay Point Road. That is all we can prove to be correct about their proximity or relationship.


:study:
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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby twinsrwe » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:07 pm

Oh wow, I didn’t realize that David Anthony's place was so close to the Borden’s summer home in Swansea. Thank you for sharing that information with us, MB. It changes my thoughts about David Anthony being an acquaintance of Lizzie.
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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby mbhenty » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:49 pm

Yes, Thanks Twins:

Interesting, no less.

On the map above you can see the Swansea Marina. That is where I keep my sailboat. Thus, I drive by the Borden house quite a bit.

Nothing has been done about the Anthony Place. You can see the large "A" into the stonework near the porch. It's really a wonderful looking property from the outside. Never been inside. A bit run down. Exclusive address for the town of Swansea. Lots of big houses down on Bay Point Road.

It overlooks Mount Hope Bay and you can see the Mount Hope Bridge in the distance linking Portsmouth, R.I. and Bristol.

:study:
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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby NancyDrew » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:40 am

Wow, thank you mbhenty, for the links and the pictures! The Anthony's had money obviously. Is their house inhabited? If not, do you know how long it's been empty?

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby mbhenty » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:37 pm

Yes: NancyDrew...

It has been empty for many years. A couple of years ago they were working on it, doing some work on the inside. But I never see anyone around much; but have not been down that way in a year or more.

Below is a photograph of the Anthony house from the rear. I took the picture from my sailboat as I sailed by... taken a little more than a year ago. You don't see views of the house from this angle. Not unless you trespass or drive by on a boat.

Also, not certain whether the house was build by father or son, both who were named David. The father died in or around 1915 and David Jr. in the twenties.
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David M. Anthony Jr.

Postby InterestedReader » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:38 am

If this is the chap, then his father was a 'wholesale butcher' according to the 1870 Census:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MDS2-FWJ
David Anthony Senior was in the meat trade, and their Fall River home was on North Main Street. For the 1880 Census it's a transcription error making the father a 'Labourer', but even so, the family don't look like 'old money'.

1880:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MH6S-GDD

1900:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M95L-L9P

1910:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M2NR-DGN

By 1920 David M. Anthony Jr. is living with his sister whose husband Frank Horton runs a garage and deals in automobiles. In Fall River at least, Anthony is still on North Main.
1920:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MXTR-3CY

Here is David Anthony Jr on Findagrave:
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.c ... =106993376
And here's a photo of his father:
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.c ... =106991208


I once did sufficient digging on Ruby Cameron to realise she was a mythomaniac. There's just one demonstrably true fact in her story - her dad John Cameron did make sausages. In New Bedford. So Cameron may well have had links with the 'Pork Packer' Anthonys and the Anthonys very probably did have meat-wagons! Ruby's mother was committed to a lunatic asylum and only Ruby could have put her there, so I wondered if guilt fuelled her strange stories about her parents' 'involvement' in the crime. As Ruby told it, it was the trauma of witnessing the Borden murders which drove her mother insane, and eventually to suicide.

So why would the Camerons help David Anthony escape after butchering the Bordens?
An exciting new range of sausages they had in mind?
Money?
Money would be the most likely incentive and yet there's no sign of any. The Camerons' fortunes went from bad to worse. Margaret Cameron worked as a washerwoman, Ruby had to leave school at 15 and go into factory work.

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby twinsrwe » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:22 pm

I apologize for taking so long to reply to your post, MB, I meant to submit a reply sooner.

mbhenty wrote:Yes, Thanks Twins:

Interesting, no less. …

You’re welcome.
I agree, it is interesting.
It never ceases to amazes me how one small piece of information, such as the Borden’s summer home is about ¾ of a mile away from David Antony's place, changes how I think about a particular aspect of the Borden murder case.

mbhenty wrote:… On the map above you can see the Swansea Marina. That is where I keep my sailboat. Thus, I drive by the Borden house quite a bit. …

That is so cool!
Is the Borden summer house being taken care of? Does anyone live in the house now?

mbhenty wrote:… Nothing has been done about the Anthony Place. You can see the large "A" into the stonework near the porch. It's really a wonderful looking property from the outside. Never been inside. A bit run down. Exclusive address for the town of Swansea. Lots of big houses down on Bay Point Road.

It overlooks Mount Hope Bay and you can see the Mount Hope Bridge in the distance linking Portsmouth, R.I. and Bristol.

:study:

Thank you for posting the pictures of the Anthony Place. It really is a beautiful house, and the view overlooking the Mount Hope Bay must be breathtakingly beautiful. It’s a shame that no one has kept the place up on a regular basis.

The Mount Hope Bridge is huge :shock: :

postcard-of-mount-hope-bridge-3-front-side.jpg
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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby twinsrwe » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:31 pm

Interested, welcome back! I have missed you – it is great to see you posting again. :grin:

Good job tracing the genealogy information on the David Anthony family, and thank you for posting it. I am pretty sure you tracked the family we are discussing. (BTW: I was hoping you or KGDevil would post the Anthony genealogy information because I am not good at it, so I tend to leave it up to the expects.)

InterestedReader wrote: ... I once did sufficient digging on Ruby Cameron to realise she was a mythomaniac. There's just one demonstrably true fact in her story - her dad John Cameron did make sausages. In New Bedford. So Cameron may well have had links with the 'Pork Packer' Anthonys and the Anthonys very probably did have meat-wagons! Ruby's mother was committed to a lunatic asylum and only Ruby could have put her there, so I wondered if guilt fuelled her strange stories about her parents' 'involvement' in the crime. As Ruby told it, it was the trauma of witnessing the Borden murders which drove her mother insane, and eventually to suicide. …

Wendy, you amaze me; this is some seriously interesting information; thank you for posting it. I am thrilled that this info backs up the thoughts I have had for years regarding the David Anthony - Lizzie Borden theory. As intriguing as the idea is, that Lizzie was romantically involved with David Anthony, the story just doesn’t hold up when compared to the known facts of the Borden murders.

If you read the following newspaper articles, while keeping the known facts in mind, you will discover that there are many blaring inaccuracies. For example: “Lizzie spent the rest of her life alone in the house where her parents were killed …” Here is another one: “Elizabeth Borden was a fine old lady – there was nothing wrong with her,” said Miss Cameron. See how many more you can find in newspaper articles below.

Weekly World News Mar 19, 1985: http://tinyurl.com/q8xqsp5

The Evening News - Jan 6, 1985: http://tinyurl.com/lysxyrh

I respect our member Gramma and her belief in David Anthony being the killer of Andrew and Abby Borden, but I cannot put a lot of faith in a source who insists on being anonymous and who expects us to believe a story that was told to her by an 84 year old woman whose information is obviously contradictory to the known facts of the Borden murder case.

Personally, I find it unbelievable that a man would allow the woman he loves to be arrested, sit in jail for 10 months, withstand an Inquest into the deaths of Andrew and Abby, followed by a Preliminary Hearing, and then a Trial that was held before the Superior Court, for something that he did. What kind of a man allows this? Furthermore, why didn’t David seek Lizzie out and marry her after she was acquitted?

What did David gain? He didn’t inherit any of the Borden money, nor did he end up with the woman he supposedly loved to the degree of feeling a double homicide was justified.
Last edited by twinsrwe on Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby Steveads2004 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:22 pm

The difference in our times and customs stand out here like a sore thumb. I'm not sure where the David Anthony thing got its start bu there is such a lack of written speculation for us to look over. I wish Bridget had written a book or sat for an interview. WHY was the prosecution so inept? Why not sneak in her contradictory words from the inquest? Why not push her even a little on her nonsensicle stories, why not press Bowen on his burning evidence etc etc.Now I see why I was so ready to accept Brown's conspiricy theory years ago. It shows that nobody wanted to take a chance on her being found guilty but why??

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby NancyDrew » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:21 pm

She was a woman, she came from a family with social standing and money (even if Andrew was stingy; it was his name on the building downtown) and she had a dream team of lawyers that consisted of an Ex-Governor. Money buys options.

Re Dave Anthony: I start reading the old archives and Gramma's posts, and I admit to getting dazed and confused. It's delicious reading; so tantalizing to start thinking that THIS is the answer, and so easy to get lost in her prose. But, but, but....sigh. Corroboration? Hard proof? Very little...

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby InterestedReader » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:09 am

Hi Judy :grin: :salut:

Please, there's nothing very clever about finding this. I was just checking out how Ruby Cameron's family looked in the Census, and so on. To see if anything proves or disproves her wonderfully... ambitious story-telling.

It's been a while and you know what I cannot remember? What it was the 'Gramma' poster said threw her in the way of Ruby. I mean, how it was that 'Gramma' goes tripping into Ruby Cameron's house and wins her trust (!) and gets to hear the whole story first-hand. I remember that 'Gramma' had a family forebear employed by Lizzie as a cook or something and that Kat vouchsafed for her identity, saying she, Kat, knew who 'Gramma' was, and it was true she had family connections to Lizzie's staff. But how did 'Gramma' explain her coming into contact with Ruby Cameron? Judy, can you remember that bit?

Whoever 'Gramma' was, she'd evidently done years of solid research into the Borden case... She often said she had no agenda but... she so did have an agenda - promoting the David Anthony romance.
While Ruby is a useful reminder that some people will believe anything. Her claims were preposterous and yet you often see perfectly bright people bending the rules and giving her every latitude as if desperate to enable Lizzie's 'romance'.

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby twinsrwe » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:06 am

Hi Wendy :grin:

The information you posted regarding Ruby Cameron may not have been ‘very clever’, but I still find it fascinating.

I recall that Gramma had posted how she came to know Ruby, but not in detail, so I did a bit of research to find the answer to your question, or at least I hope the following is what you remember.

Posted by Gramma on Feb-18th-04:

When Ruby broke her story in the Ellsworth American I had friends who called me immediately. I could not believe it as I was living a mere 45 minutes away at the time. Of course I had to check this woman out in person so I called her and made an appointment to see her. She was very gracious in accepting my word that my grandmother had worked for Lizzie and allowed me to visit. Then, before any of the other papers ran their stories, before the invasion of the world into this little 84 year-old lady's home, she and I exchanged stories. She tested me and I tested her. She was convinced I was genuine and I was convinced she was, too. We became close friends and she shared some things about her life that even the press did not know. Our friendship was way too short and only lasted 6 months. I was devastated when she died because she really was the only one in my entire lifetime who made any sense out of the whole story.


http://tinyurl.com/kn9lm5r


Kat posted the following on Jan 20, 2008, regarding who Gramma is:
...
Is that our member gramma?
Her grandmother was companion to Lizzie for about a year- she was Gertrude M. (Russell) Callow. I think she left because she wished to date and marry. Lizzie wanted her female employees unmarried. Gramma is the daughter of Virgina Taylor, Gertrude's daughter. (See some bio material in Rebello, page 289.) Our member is known at the FRHS, at least as who she says she is. They know of her- I've asked.
...

http://tinyurl.com/ya2zfww2

Rebello, page 289:

Gertrude M. (Russell) Callow was employed as a live-in domestic from 1912-1913. Miss Russell was born in New Bedford, Massachusetts, March 1889. She was the daughter of Addison E. and Minerva F. (Hubbard) Russell and sister of William E. and Frederick C. Russell. Miss Russell was first employed as an operator at the Kerr Thread Mill, a domestic for Miss Borden and a clerk. She later married John W. Callow (1883-1967), who was first employed as a weaver, gardener and a sexton at the Church of Ascension in Fall River. The Callows resided in Fall River. Mrs. Russell died in Fall River, February 25, 1968, at the Home for the Aged (now Adams House, a rest home). She is survived by a daughter, Mrs. Harold C. (Virginia) Taylor; and a son, Mr. John R. Callow. Mr. and Mrs. Callow are buried at Oak Grove Cemetery in Fall River.
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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby InterestedReader » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:34 am

There you are, that's it - Thanks Judy. It was lurking at the back of my mind but I didn't know where to find it.

I may not be popular for saying it but it rang a false note with me, Gramma's account of how she went flying off to Ruby's home. Perhaps she was the grand-daughter of Gertrude Callow - and it looks as if Kat wasn't 100% sure on that point - but nevertheless she behaved like an author obsessively bent on research :smile: And she exhibited a very great deal of research.

She says that Ruby Cameron's account was the only one to 'make sense' in an 'entire lifetime' of wondering about the case?
I think that people who do have family connections to newsworthy events, they tend to be the least interested in them, if you see what I mean.

It's also safe to say that Ruby Cameron was after all the publicity she could get, even at 84 years old.

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby NancyDrew » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:21 am

So Gramma is a Taylor; we don't know her first name. Is she still alive? I'm curious as to why she stopped posting...unless of course, she died.

I've read all of her posts; it takes a while. She often says she doesn't type well, or understand computers, but I find her writing impeccable; no grammatical errors, or typos. I enjoy reading her 'take' on the Borden case, but so much of it just doesn't make sense. Also, while she is unfailingly polite, she often gets preachy, telling us to "look for the truth" in the various newspaper articles, instead of just telling us what the heck she is talking about. Bottom line: Gramma and her Ruby stories frustrate me greatly.

If Dave Anthony was "crazy" why wouldn't his life after the murders bear witness to this, even just a little? By all accounts, he was practically non-existent; no run-ins with the law, a quiet life, etc.

If Dave Anthony was enraged enough to kill, why start with Mrs. Borden? Did he have an argument with her while she was putting slips on bed pillows? Exchange words about marrying Lizzie, then become so angry at the answer that he whacked this 67 year old woman 18 times with an axe? Then what? Lizzie had to know, how could she not?

She would have to help him hide; where? The barn? And of course he would have had to take his weapon with him, and stay in a holding pattern for over an hour. Why did he leave no blood trail out of the guest room, on the stairs, the railing, the foyer? No footprints, smudges, smears... He had to get from upstairs to downstairs and was apparently able to do so without leaving a trace of himself or his deed. Would Bridget know at this point, or did she only get involved after the 2nd murder? If Lizzie were hiding David outside (barn) it's very possible B would see him, as she was in and out of the house. Or did Anthony hide someplace downstairs?

Andrew comes home at 10:40-ish. He is in the foyer, the dining room, the kitchen (going thru to upstairs), his bedroom, finally the sitting room. No one hiding in any of these places, or he would have been seen, no? If Anthony had an argument with Andrew, one would think both men would be standing, or at least, not reclining on a sofa. Andrew's murder looked like a blitz attack; he never saw it coming. So, sticking to the Ruby-Gramma story, Anthony pops in, or out, from wherever he has been secreted for an hour and a half, and bashes in his GF's father's skull 11 times. Because he is enraged.

And then, LIzzie, Bridgette, and others, help David Anthony escape, taking the bloody ax with him, and Lizzie sounds the alarm, sending Bridgette out of the house for help. Lizzie perhaps changes her dress during this time?

Wow. A lot to swallow there.

I'm not even venturing into the aftermath of the murders...Lizzie spending 10 months in a jail cell while Anthony is enjoying complete freedom. Facing the possibility of death by public hanging while the REAL murderer is doing....what? (Not visiting her, we know that for sure, correct?)

Hmmm. Would enjoy hearing what others think of the probability of the Ruby story.

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby InterestedReader » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:45 am

Deleted because I've done it wrong! Checking again. :grin:

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby InterestedReader » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:34 am

Well here's Virginia the daughter of John and Gertrude Callow, living in Fall River in 1940:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K4VP-JSQ

I'll try later to proceed from there.

I agree that 'Gramma' sometimes adopted a smug tone, as if she were conducting a game of cat-and-mouse. She was the cat who knew the truth and if her mice did their homework they'd see David Anthony was an axe-murderer.

In Ruby's version David Anthony felled both Bordens at once - Ruby rubbished the idea of any delay.
:-?
In Ruby's version David came with very little biography or characteristics. But what there was I noticed you could pick up from the Census - because David lived with a brother-in-law who traded automobiles and had a sister who was a music teacher. I imagine anyone growing up in New Bedford at the time might know this, and you didn't need a ride on his motorbike to know it :grin: .

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby InterestedReader » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:58 am

...So in what capacity did Gertrude Russell work for Lizzie Borden? I can't remember.
Rebello says she was employed as live-in domestic staff from 1912 to 1913, so she'd be 23 to 24. She wasn't of an age to be a cook... A 'companion'? I'm surprised by this suggestion because a 'lady's companion' tended to have a more privileged level of education... Perhaps Lizzie was obliged to be flexible in her requirements - there must have been people who didn't think it a good idea to go live under her roof.

In the 1910 Census Gertrude Russell is 21 and an inspector at a Thread Mill. She's living in Fall River with her widowed mother Minerva and elder brother Frederick:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M2NR-ZV5

Then in October 1914 she marries, John William Callow:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N46R-3ZG
Gertrude May Russell is 25 and working as a 'Clerk' while John is 31 and a 'Florist'. According to their marriage record Gertrude was born in New Bedford. (Ruby Cameron was born in New Bedford.)

Gertrude Callow in 1920. Husband John works in the Thread Mill:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MXTT-FTK

In 1930:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQLS-N8K
They lived on Pine Street, John is now a gardener, and Virginia is 6.

In 1940:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K4VP-JSQ
John Callow seems to be 'Janitor' at the Childrens Home of The Union Hospital Home for Invalids in Fall River. Daughter Virginia is 16 and still at school.

With Virginia born in 1924, any daughter of hers - 'Gramma' - will be born somewhere between 1945 and 1965, I suppose. Roughly speaking.

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby NancyDrew » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:41 pm

In Ruby's version Dave simply murdered them both, but it doesn't say specifically that he killed them together, or at once. Merely that he did away with both parents.

I think it's been well established that Abby died at least an hour before her husband, given the congealed blood and temp of the body. Although I will say this has been argued about here on this very forum--the time Abby died I mean. She was in an upstairs bedroom, hotter than downstairs, she was heavier, etc. I'm not a forensic scientist so I don't know about the absolute time frame; and neither did police or coroners in 1892. If these murders happened today, I'm sure we would have much more concrete proof about the timing of killings.

The Ruby story is problematic, but then again, this entire affair is problematic! It's why we are still furrowing our brows over this mystery 125 years later. We can't figure out how Lizzie could have felled her father and appeared, to all witnesses, pristine and blood free only minutes after a bloody, gory attack. We don't know where the heck the murder weapon is, or what happened to it. We don't understand how two people in the freakin' house didn't hear a 200 pound woman being viciously torn open with a blade 18 times...no screams, no sounds, no thuds, nothing. We can't fathom how Bridget saw nothing and did nothing.

It's all a mess. And therefore, I posit to you, fellow Bordenites, that there is just as much possibility of David Anthony committing the murders as anyone else we've considered. Throw him on the pile on suspects, along with Uncle John, Dr. Bowen, Billy Borden, Emma, etc.

We can study life in Victorian Massachusetts, and read the censuses of that time, but we can never really know what it was like back then. How people behaved. What their reactions were. It is argued that so little is know about Dave Anthony and that he is mentioned practically no where. But isn't it true that, excepting all the trial transcripts, police witness statements, and other documents associated with the charges against Lizzie Borden, we wouldn't really know ANY of these folks or what they did, who they saw, where they went?

Take Billy Borden, the alleged illegitimate son of Andrew. Entire books have been written naming him as the true killer, but we know very little about him, some even argue we can't prove he actually existed. Or Emma Borden. Who is she, apart from all the murder and trial documents? We know she was born and when she died, but other than that, it is very hard to get a grip on who she was as a person. She gave one or two interviews, but it is very hard to glean anything from them, imo, except that she chose her words carefully and was not an open person.

I'm rambling a bit, sorry dear friends...bear with me here. I do have a point, and i hope it's not a stupid one. What I'm trying to say is that the Dave Anthony story is full of holes, problematic and begs a ton of questions we can't answer. And so is the LIzzie Borden story; the one where she and she alone acted as the perpetrator. We, or I guess i should honestly say "I" cannot feature how she committed these murders...there are big, gaping holes in the theory; pockets of incredulity that have confounded me for over 30 years.

With the Ruby story, we are merely trading one big set of headaches for another, different set of headaches. And the Ruby story does answer some questions we cannot otherwise figure out, such as:
1. Why doctor Bowen took such a special interest in Lizzie
2. Why Bridgette distanced herself as much as possible from the sisters after the affair, and then for life.
3. Why Lizzie was such a tragically haunted person her whole life...bitter perhaps?

I know this post may not agree with some, and that's okay...I'm trying to engender discussion, as I've always found Gramma and her stories to be absolutely fascinating, and I've wondered why they weren't dissected as much as other theories on the forum.

Thanks for indulging me, whoever took the time to read this!

-Robin :color:

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby InterestedReader » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:22 am

Judy, I just did a forum search on Gertrude Callow née Russell and am surprised to find we have no real information about her. There's the Rebello bio, the authority for her being a Lizzie employee for just a year, 1912 to 1913. (Rebello's other bits are from Census and vital records). In 2004 Forum poster 'Gramma' appears and within a month rather jemmies her grandmother into the conversation - so if I've ever read about Gertrude here (and I very much thought I had) it would consist of this poster's anecdotal musings. It was 'Gramma' who held Gertrude to be a live-in 'companion' and one who accompanied Lizzie on her travels. Kat seemed surprised a mill girl should be a lady's travelling companion - as am I.

Gertrude Callow's memorial on Findagrave was made by her maternal grand-daughter, who would be 'Gramma' I suppose.
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.c ... =27469937&

As for any contemporary record of what Gertrude Russell actually did at Lizzie's, I'm none the wiser even after looking. But 'Gramma' seemed to regard that one-year job as sufficient to endorse her own thinking on the mystery, and somehow to win credence for the Ruby Cameron version. (Which by the way, defiantly dispenses with Bridget Sullivan. We can be confused by many features of the case but there's no doubt the poor cow in the middle was Bridget Sullivan.)

Did Ruby include the abortion in her story? I'm not sure she did. The abortion appealed to
'Gramma', it was one of those things she'd most hint and insinuate to be true. I do find it interesting the way the abortion rumour was popular in New Bedford - popular then. Ruby Cameron and Gertrude Russell both grew up in New Bedford.

But the likes of Ruby Cameron, Ellen Eagan and her family, Arnold Brown - these fantasists and attention-seekers - they produced make-believe, which I personally find nothing but a nuisance. We were researching William S. Borden here, last year, and we disproved Brown's 'theory', yet the people who find it beguiling probably don't care if it is factually untenable.

David Anthony had a niece, Ruth Waring, who was very upset by Ruby Cameron's assertions:
'I knew my uncle David very well. He was a shy, kind, gentle man, and I never heard anyone speak of any association with Lizzie Borden....We called him Uncle Dade... He would come from Fall River to Swansea on his motorcycle many days. He had a cottage on the water and he would go sailing many afternoons. I can remember going with him. ...David played the violin. He was a master of the harmonica. I remember him as a very religious man.'
Last edited by InterestedReader on Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:25 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby mbhenty » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:29 pm

Excellent discussion and splendid and well accomplished research, people :!: :smile:

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby patsy » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:21 pm

This thread has so much information and so nice that it's all in one place. Thanks to all for contributing so much. I remember reading Gramma's posts on the old board and wanted to really believe that Ruby's story was true; I think in my gut I knew that we probably just had another good story to intrigue us for awhile.

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby snokkums » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:06 am

I think before the murders, daddy war bucks might have had something to say about the suitors. After the murders, who wants to date an accused murderer?
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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby mbhenty » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:33 pm

me...

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby twinsrwe » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:48 pm

:peanut19: You just made my day with your comment, MB!!! :lol:
"You can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all the people all of the time."~ Abraham Lincoln :grin:

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby mbhenty » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:46 pm

Yes, indeed :lol: :lol: :lol:

I had a friend (or should I be honest and say he was a brother of a friend) of mine who went to jail for... let's say, for being a bad boy. His story and affair was in the papers. Soon he had all sorts of girls writing to him in prison. He married one of them. Takes all kinds.

:alcohol:

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby snokkums » Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:40 pm

:rainbowfro: You make some good points. Think that people didn’t want deal Andrew. After that,who wants to associated with someone that was accused and brought to trial? Even if she did get acquitted who wants to be around her? Her own sister distance herself from her.
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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby mbhenty » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:44 pm

I would imagine, and this is my personal opinion, please understand, but the reason Emma left Lizzie and Maplecorft probably had nothing to do with the case and death of their parents. It is doubtful that Emma would have waited 12 years before making her move or discovering that Lizzie was guilty, if that was in fact the truth. The reason Emma left had nothing to do with the crime of 1892. And the actual explanation has never been proven or explained by Emma or anyone else. Not even Arnold Brown.

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby mbhenty » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:13 pm

Not to be confused with Arthur Brown...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en1uwIzI3SE

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby NancyDrew » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:29 am

mbhenty,

OT:
What then, do you believe, is the reason Emma left Maplecroft? (Just curious as to your personal opinion on this.)

In regards to this thread...I originally started it because I wondered WHY these two women (Lizzie and Emma) seemed to live asexual lives. And especially in regards to Lizzie, she was a lonely, WEALTHY woman. I would imagine there would have been some enterprising men of all ages who might have wanted to horn in on her good fortune. I wonder if anyone even tried...

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby mbhenty » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:44 pm

Yes, Robin:

Solving many of the problems between all the Bordens is the delightful quandary that we are left with, and one ready made to prompt all sorts of scripts, plots, and workable scenarios.

There are a host of possibilities to why Emma could have left Maplecroft. They don't have to be sinister, but:

Emma herself expressed in an interview to the Boston Sunday Herald, that she had to leave when living conditions became so unbearable that she could no longer sustain her residency at Maplecorft. Emma was living at the Rev. Buck residence at the time of the interview. Emma adds in the interview that Rev. Buck was the best friend that she had in the world and that he counseled that she should leave and make her home elsewhere. (But this advise came years before Emma actually left since the Rev. died in 1903 and Emma left in 1905. Thus, we know there was a serious breakdown between Lizzie and Emma, though Emma stated that she could (would) not give a reason.

One reason that may helped Emma along could have been Lizzie's friendship with Nance O'Neil and the theater company. (Friendship. I'm not hinting at anything more) But not the 'only' or 'main' motive. When the good Rev. gave Emma advice and when she expressed her strained relationship with Lizzie, Nance O'Neil had yet to be aquatinted with Lizzie Borden. So Nance alone could not have been the reason.

Then there was Joseph Tetrualt, the chauffeur. The rumor mill, even when Emma left Maplecorft, back in 1905, that there was gossip about a relationship between Lizzie and Tetrualt, who was reported to be quite the lady's man. If true, add Nance and her crew to the mix and that could have been what snapped it for Emma. It is vital here to add that Emma never met Nance. We are not sure where Emma went when Lizzie entertained the theater company and Nance, but it is believed that the two women never encountered or met one another.

At one time I thought that Tetrualt could have lived in the garage at Maplecorft. There is a chimney and place for a stove. (which is boarded over) I am in and out of the garage at Maplecorft on a daily bases. I am renovating my home and keep my tools and stock in the garage at Maplecroft and use it as a workshop. So I have studied the walls in the garage and looked for any hints that there was a living quarters there at one time for a Chauffeur, but none appear to exist. Though it is possible. It appears that the walls and ceiling are as they were when Lizzie owned Maplecroft. The biggest change is the floor which has been cemented, with no hint that a car turntable ever existed.

But if Tetrualt did indeed live inside Maplecroft itself, inside the main house, I find it unconscionable, even by today's standards. I can easily imagine him finding his way into Lizzie's bed, and this being the one thing that Emma could not live with. It is also important to mention that Emma stated that "while Lizzie lived she would never step foot in Maplecroft again". This was a serious and powerful declaration to make about one's sister. So, what ever it was was very grave. Sad, really, for them in any event.

In my book I entertain that it was due to a disagreement between the girls about Joseph Tetrault. If you remember, Lizzie let him go. Right after Emma left, Tetrault was rehired. Of course, in "Lizzie Borden The Girl with the Pansy Pin" the reasons, or should I say, lustful infractions, are a lot more steamy then just a simple disagreement, giving Emma no alternative but to leave. But that was my way of having some fun with a situation to which there is no proof, concrete hint, or confirmation to why Emma left.

Could it have been that Emma discovered that Lizzie committed the murders? Hey, could be. But it is likely that everything that was known to Lizzie and Emma about the crime was known shortly after the murders.

Wrapping things up here, I think it was a combination of many possibilities, most of them hingeing on Lizzie's life style. Nailing myself down I would guess it was a combination of Tetrault, O'Neil, and Lizzie's lust for life. (or Tetrault)

Or none of the above?

:study:

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby NancyDrew » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:41 am

Thanks for the reply, mbhenty! I've mused about Emma's departure, and the reasons thereof, on several other threads. The most salient feature of her leaving, to me at least, is the permanency of it. She literally never saw or spoke to Lizzie again; I think this is significant.

I can't help but wonder if Lizzie felt broken-hearted over losing her sister, or relief. I also wonder what her friends thought of it.

Thank you for the inside peek into Maplecroft...fascinating. I would love to visit there sometime.

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby mbhenty » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:12 pm

Yes Robin:

I have been privileged with sitting in Maplecroft's living room, all alone, when the proprietor was out and left to listen to the snaps, creeping, and other idiosyncratic sounds that are emitted from an old building. (even from a new building) It is also disconcerting to admit while wandering the stairwells of Maplecroft late at night spooks the living bejeebers out of me.

One night I had some work to do on the second floor of Maplecorft to a light fixture while the owner was out, and though no one tapped me on the shoulder or tugged at my arm, I could not shake the shivers and quivering that chilled and shuddered through my bones.

Suddenly there was an unexpected loud snapping noise from above and behind me. (behind me was the rear stairwell that led to the third floor and just by Lizzie's summer bedroom) The sort of noise that old stairs or loose steps echo when climbing them. It sounded like it came from the third level. Of course I ignored it and took the noise for what it probably was. The house settling. Or a step that was once compressed from weight which once moved it ajar, adjusting itself due to temperature change and/or the swelling and expanding of excessively dried timber. I must add that this happened more than once, and I must timidly admit that I felt a strong fearful sense of presence around me. This happens mostly after it is dark and when I'm alone in Maplecorft. And I am not one who believes in hauntings, but my experience there is mysteriously creepy and powerful. I have no explanation.

As I said, I have no interest or indulging beliefs about hauntings or spirits, but if asked to give an opinion I would need to add that people are haunted not buildings. And thus, such "haunted people" bring out the supernatural which may exist in a building or place. If that makes any sense. Not a believer, so I'm probably the wrong person to ask about such things. But I know how I feel when alone at Maplecorft and those sensations are real, uncomfortable, and overwhelming.


:study:

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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby snokkums » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:03 pm

Before the murders I think noone wanted to deal with Andrew. After the murders whowants to be seen with an accused murdere. Even if she was found not guilty.
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Re: Lizzie's Love Life

Postby NancyDrew » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:58 am

She was a very wealthy accused murderer...perhaps there weren't the same money-grabbing opportunists in 1892 as there are now?
Fame and notoriety, even when based on ghastly things, always attract a certain element of people. Witness all the jail-house groupies for people like Scott Peterson, or even Charles Manson.

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