Why Did Emma Leave?

This the place to have frank, but cordial, discussions of the Lizzie Borden case

Moderator: Adminlizzieborden

User avatar
PossumPie
Posts: 867
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:26 am
Real Name: Daniel W Zepp
Location: Near Gettysburg, PA

Re: Why Did Emma Leave?

Postby PossumPie » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:36 pm

twinsrwe wrote:I find it interesting that RETIRED is listed for her occupation. Retired from what? Am I missing something here? To my knowledge, she never worked a day in her life!


LOL
Don't be so 'open-minded' that your brain falls out.

User avatar
Allen
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Me

Re: Why Did Emma Leave?

Postby Allen » Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:14 pm

It seems Emma moved around a bit after leaving Maplecroft. The 1910 census has her living as a boarder in Providence, Rhode Island with the Gardner family. Her having so many living companions, and the fact that she was away for two weeks visiting friends at the time of the murders, makes me wonder if Emma was not the backwards wall flower so many imagine her to be.

Census 1910 Providence Ward 2, Providence, Rhode Island, United States

Head Preston H Gardner M 47 Massachusetts
Wife Mary E Gardner F 41 Michigan
Boarder Emma L Borden F 49 Massachusetts
Daughter Maude P Gardner F 12 Rhode Island
Servant Mary Cummings F 40 Scotland
Servant Elizabeth Burns F 28 Ireland
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche

User avatar
PossumPie
Posts: 867
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:26 am
Real Name: Daniel W Zepp
Location: Near Gettysburg, PA

Re: Why Did Emma Leave?

Postby PossumPie » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:05 am

We see on her death certificate that she had senility of some kind. She had a lot of money. There were no nursing homes to speak of back then. Perhaps she went from place to place living with people and paying well, these people looked after her. She didn't buy a house either b/c she didn't want to be alone, or didn't trust herself to be alone. maybe?
Don't be so 'open-minded' that your brain falls out.

User avatar
Allen
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Me

Re: Why Did Emma Leave?

Postby Allen » Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:20 am

It's possible. But in my opinion I do not believe she suffered from senility for the entire time after she left Maplecroft. There were also homes for the aged back then. They were called Homes for the Aged, Homes for Old Ladies, Homes For Aged Men. And we know that there was one in Fall River actually. They also had a children's home for orphaned children.

Q. Did he talk as though he was intending to make a will?
A. I judged from that he was intending to, I drew my conclusions that he had not, but was thinking of it.

Q. Did he mention the bequests outside he thought he should make?
A. He did not.

Q. How came he to be speaking about it?
A. Common conversation, I suppose, same as about his land. Before he bought the Birch land, I was down there with him. He says lets go up Main street. We went up. He says "here is a piece of property, don't say anything about it, I have got a chance to buy. What is your opinion about it?"? I asked what it could be bought for. I don't know as he told me direct, but about. I says "I think it is a good property in the heart of the city. The city will be coming towards it all the time. I believe it will be a good investment." Several months afterward, one Sunday, he says "John I did as you told me." I says "what is that?" I forgot all about it. "I bought that Birch land."

Q. I wish you would recall the conversation about the will as as explicitly as you have this.
A. That is all he said about the will, he thought of making some bequests out, you know, for charitable purposes. His farm over there, he was talking about the Old Ladies Home, "I don't know but I would give them this, if they would take it."

History of Fall River / prepared under the direction of a committee of prominent citizens appointed by His Honor Mayor John T. Coughlin by Henry M. Fenner, A. B., assisted by Benjamin Buffinton. -- New York : F. T. Smiley Publishing Co., 1906
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Allen on Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche

User avatar
Allen
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Me

Re: Why Did Emma Leave?

Postby Allen » Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:21 am

And this photo of the Home For The Aged is on a site that has several historical photographs available of the entire city of Fall River, Massachusetts.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche

User avatar
Allen
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Me

Re: Why Did Emma Leave?

Postby Allen » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:46 pm

I have always found this interesting. I found a birth record for an Eliza B. Borden born in Fall River Massachusetts on February 12, 1851 to Andrew J. and Sarah A. Borden. The father is listed as being a cabinet maker, which we know Andrew was a cabinet maker. This is how he is listed in census records and in various other records. The parents being Andrew J. Borden and Sarah A. Borden, and the child being born the same year as Emma, seems like a huge coincidence. I thought someone had mentioned this coincidence a long time ago on the board but I have not found any information yet. The father is listed as born in Massachusetts, and the mother in Tiverton, Rhode Island. According to what we know Sarah Anthony Morse was also born in Massachusetts. Was Emma originally Eliza, or was there another Andrew J. and Sarah A. Borden who had a child in 1851 in Fall River?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche

User avatar
PossumPie
Posts: 867
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:26 am
Real Name: Daniel W Zepp
Location: Near Gettysburg, PA

Re: Why Did Emma Leave?

Postby PossumPie » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:32 pm

Allen wrote:I have always found this interesting. I found a birth record for an Eliza B. Borden born in Fall River Massachusetts on February 12, 1851 to Andrew J. and Sarah A. Borden. The father is listed as being a cabinet maker, which we know Andrew was a cabinet maker. This is how he is listed in census records and in various other records. The parents being Andrew J. Borden and Sarah A. Borden, and the child being born the same year as Emma, seems like a huge coincidence. I thought someone had mentioned this coincidence a long time ago on the board but I have not found any information yet. The father is listed as born in Massachusetts, and the mother in Tiverton, Rhode Island. According to what we know Sarah Anthony Morse was also born in Massachusetts. Was Emma originally Eliza, or was there another Andrew J. and Sarah A. Borden who had a child in 1851 in Fall River?

We know they had a child who died...what was her name?
Don't be so 'open-minded' that your brain falls out.

User avatar
Allen
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Me

Re: Why Did Emma Leave?

Postby Allen » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:38 pm

I actually sent away for my own copies of birth, death, and marriage certificates of many of the people involved in Lizzie's life. (As well as both copies of the death certificates for William S. Borden.) I have one for Alice Esther Borden. She would have been the second oldest of the Borden children if she had lived.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche

User avatar
Franz
Posts: 1601
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:44 am
Real Name: Li Guangli
Location: Rome, Italy
Contact:

Re: Why Did Emma Leave?

Postby Franz » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:31 am

Allen wrote:One thing I've always found interesting is that 1906 Emma took a trip to Scotland. I have wondered why she waited to take this trip until after she left Maplecroft. She never did live alone either. Interesting also because neither did John Morse. I think they enjoyed the companionship. Lizzie did not seem to care about having anyone else in her home but her servants.


Hey Allen, and others, where did you find all these historical pieces? It's great!
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"

User avatar
snokkums
Posts: 2499
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:09 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Robin
Location: fayetteville nc,but from milwaukee

Re: Why Did Emma Leave?

Postby snokkums » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:36 am

Allen wrote:I know this question has been asked before. I have changed my mind about this many times. It's one of the questions in this case that I can't seem to settle on an answer for because there doesn't seem to be one. Why do you think that Emma left Maplecroft never to return? Anyone have any ideas? I know it was after talking to Reverend Buck that Emma decided to finally leave. I've read somewhere that the people of Fall River didn't hold either Reverend Buck or Jubb in very high regard. After all those years of mothering Lizzie, what drove Emma over the edge?


From everything I've read, Emma was more of the retiring of the two, and lizzie was enjoying herself. Emma got a belly full of the partying and what not and left.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.

User avatar
Allen
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Me

Re: Why Did Emma Leave?

Postby Allen » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:08 pm

Franz wrote:
Allen wrote:One thing I've always found interesting is that 1906 Emma took a trip to Scotland. I have wondered why she waited to take this trip until after she left Maplecroft. She never did live alone either. Interesting also because neither did John Morse. I think they enjoyed the companionship. Lizzie did not seem to care about having anyone else in her home but her servants.


Hey Allen, and others, where did you find all these historical pieces? It's great!


I have amassed a lot of documentation over the years. I've obtained it through several great sources. Many of my documents have been found via the Massachusetts vital statistics office, the local county libraries and court houses are a wealth of information, newspaper archives, contemporary books and articles, other local offices in Fall River and the surrounding areas, and a very great genealogy site that has copies of the actual documents available.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Dane
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:54 pm
Real Name: Dane

Re: Why Did Emma Leave?

Postby Dane » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:00 pm

Pretty good suggestions that would fit in with the time period. What if Emma was the one that did it? After year's of secrecy, she finally confessed to Lizzie. Upon hearing this and all of the problems it created in her life...Lizzie banished her.

User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 3940
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Why Did Emma Leave?

Postby twinsrwe » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:13 pm

Hello, Dane, welcome to the forum.

The problem I have with anyone other than Lizzie being the killer is that Lizzie did not have an alibi for the time between when Andrew left that morning until his return. According to her Inquest testimony, she was in the house the entire time between Andrew leaving and his return. IMO, the alibi she gave for the time her father was murdered, is not, at all, realistic.

If Emma was the killer, then Lizzie HAD to have known her sister was the killer right from the get go. The same is true if Abby’s killer was an intruder; Lizzie had to have known who the killer was, she was in the house the entire time!

Some people have such a hard time believing that Lizzie could not have cleaned herself up, and hid the hatchet in the 15-20 minute time span that she claimed she was in the barn, but if Emma was the perpetrator, she had the same amount of time to clean up, and leave the premises undetected, with blood on her dress and carrying a bloody hatchet. Furthermore, how is it that no one saw her come or leave?

If an intruder were the perpetrator, that person had the same amount of time to leave the leave the premises undetected, wearing blood stained clothes and carrying a bloody hatchet. With all of the Second Street activity that was going on that day, along with the watchful eye of Mrs. Churchill, how is it that an intruder was not seem, by someone?

Inquest Testimony: http://tinyurl.com/y7fg2vo8
"You can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all the people all of the time."~ Abraham Lincoln :grin:

User avatar
KGDevil
Posts: 287
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:41 pm
Real Name: John Porter

Re: Why Did Emma Leave?

Postby KGDevil » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:26 pm

twinsrwe wrote:Hello, Dane, welcome to the forum.

The problem I have with anyone other than Lizzie being the killer is that Lizzie did not have an alibi for the time between when Andrew left that morning until his return. According to her Inquest testimony, she was in the house the entire time between Andrew leaving and his return. IMO, the alibi she gave for the time her father was murdered, is not, at all, realistic.

If Emma was the killer, then Lizzie HAD to have known her sister was the killer right from the get go. The same is true if Abby’s killer was an intruder; Lizzie had to have known who the killer was, she was in the house the entire time!

Some people have such a hard time believing that Lizzie could not have cleaned herself up, and hid the hatchet in the 15-20 minute time span that she claimed she was in the barn, but if Emma was the perpetrator, she had the same amount of time to clean up, and leave the premises undetected, with blood on her dress and carrying a bloody hatchet. Furthermore, how is it that no one saw her come or leave?

If an intruder were the perpetrator, that person had the same amount of time to leave the leave the premises undetected, wearing blood stained clothes and carrying a bloody hatchet. With all of the Second Street activity that was going on that day, along with the watchful eye of Mrs. Churchill, how is it that an intruder was not seem, by someone?

Inquest Testimony: http://tinyurl.com/y7fg2vo8


I agree Twins. I have a hard time believing that anyone swallowed her excuses about how she did not know two brutal axe murders had taken place right under her nose. She put herself in the kitchen for the majority of the morning, which was within direct sight of any intruder trying to sneak in the side door.

And about that 20 minutes. I've showered, shaved, and been ready for work in less than that time.

Consider this, as I'm in agreement with Twins, any intruder who committed the murders had the same time frame for getting cleaned up that Lizzie would have had. Then they would have had to get away in front of a street full of witnesses. So, yes, cleaning up in that time frame is possible because someone did actually do it. The murderer, no matter who it was, had the same tight window of time before Lizzie called Bridget downstairs.

But, an intruder unknown to Lizzie had an even tighter time frame than 15-20 minutes. They had to get out before Lizzie had discovered Andrew's body. If you buy that bunk about her being in the dusty barn for 20 minutes, while eating pears, and coming out clean and pristine.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest