Lizzie Borden Society Forum

That bit, about the lighter stripes, sounds like gingham doesn't it? Lizzie seems to have been fond of that sort of pattern. Two things, I wonder whether Mary sewed her own clothes or was perhaps a professional dressmaker, and I wonder, after his testimony was reported, his fellow officers at the police station teased him over it?
It was Harrington who reported Dr Bowen's burning of the note in the stove and also the strange cylinder-like shape he saw himself in the stove that had completely burned away. He seems to have been very observant.

An idea for Halloween, later in the year

http://takebackhalloween.org/lizzie-borden/

Curryong wrote:An idea for Halloween, later in the year

http://takebackhalloween.org/lizzie-borden/

Thanks for posting this link, Curryong!

I really like the Victorian dress with the leg-o-mutton sleeves!!!

Might be an idea for a fancy dress or costume party!

True!!!

I think I was born in the wrong era. I've always loved the high necked dresses, that the Victorian women wore.

I think the lacy Edwardian ones, especially the dainty embroidered blouses and large hats look absolutely beautiful. I don't know whether I could put up with the agony of having to wear corsets, though. I am old enough to remember older women wearing them with the suspenders to keep their stockings up, and that looked painful enough!

I agree, the lacy Edwardian and dainty embroidered blouses are gorgeous!!!

I am also old enough to remember women who wore corsets. They looked great once they were in a corset and fully dressed, but man, they must have felt confined. Of course, those women didn't know the comforts in clothing that we know today.

I'm down with a nice tight lace and satin corset.

This might explain the need for fainting couches.

Is one of those, in scarlet satin and black lace, yours debbie?

Debbie, those corsets remind me of the scenes in Gone With The Wind, when Mammy helps Scarlett get into her corsets. The first link is before Scarlett has a baby, the second link to after she has a baby.

It just looks so painful!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ7r2OVu1ss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd6zQrcQ9YE

Absolutely, twinsrwe, how did they ever eat a proper meal, or sit comfortably, or even breathe without an effort. Wasn't 18 inches supposed to be the ideal waist span when wearing a crinoline? I doubt very much whether many women, especially after they'd had children, achieving that, however tight they pulled the laces. How did women who didn't have maids manage with the lacing, anyway? Did their husbands help?

I love corsets...Etsy has some gorgeous ones. Some of them are made or can be used as outerwear over a satin blouse and skirt, slacks or even jeans. But I sure wouldn't want to be cinched in all day, every day! I've always thought women who couldn't afford a maid probably did too much work to cinch themselves in day after day, maybe just to go out or maybe not at all. This opinion is more about what Debbie thinks is comfortable than any historical fact.

Modern corsets do look gorgeous. If I lived in the 19th century, however, I think I'd just stay very slender and not bother with a corset and maintaining the fashionable silhouette!

Debbiediable, that corset is gorgeous. I think I'll go stalk Etsy. ;)

I read somewhere, probably before I joined the forum, that Lizzie had several expensive rings, bought post-murder, (accompanied probably to the sound of Andrew spinning merrily in his grave like a top) so she not only was dressed expensively and well, but adorned herself with diamonds as well.
In the same post I think there was a report that the proprietors of the local jewellery store gave orders that she was never to be left alone for a moment!

Curryong wrote:Absolutely, twinsrwe, how did they ever eat a proper meal, or sit comfortably, or even breathe without an effort. Wasn't 18 inches supposed to be the ideal waist span when wearing a crinoline? I doubt very much whether many women, especially after they'd had children, achieving that, however tight they pulled the laces. How did women who didn't have maids manage with the lacing, anyway? Did their husbands help?

I don’t know how they managed to do anything! I can't imagine any man helping their woman with lacing up a corset! According to Scarlett O’Hare, an 18 ½ inch waist line was the ideal measurement. Husbands must have gotten a very rude awaking once their wife got ready for bed!

Yes, all that flesh exploding outward in rolls, would have been a sight to see! Occasionally, in old books, you get female characters giving huge sighs of relief when they take off their corsets. Perhaps there were patented lacing appliances you could fasten to the bedpost for those with no maids, though I've never seen any.

in rereading lizzie's will, she had quite a few pieces of expensive jewelry to leave people.

no thanks to wearing corsets, from me. however beautiful some of them are, i value comfort and breathing too much. i'm with coco chanel on that.

Any of you see the CSI episode where the man wore the corsets in his civil war reenactments? he had a wasp waist and needed someone else to lace him up.

In the British and Continental armies in the early to mid 19th century officers had to be laced into their fancy uniforms too.. I wonder whether their corsets creaked when they moved? It was said that the Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria (the one whose assassination started off World War One) was so vain that he was sewn into his uniforms on formal occasions to ensure a perfect fit.

Curryong wrote:I agree with you by the way, both about her wanting to change out of her clothing after the murders and her choice of outfit, pink and white stripes with a fetching red bow! I wonder what the women who were trying to look after her thought.
Many things about what she said and did at that time are very strange. Chatting about hiring the most fashionable undertaker in town for instance, babbling to Dr Bowen about her father having been in danger (but omitting any possible talk of poison of course.) I don't think there's much doubt there was something very peculiar about Lizzie.

Can you please tell me where she mentioned hiring the most fashionable undertaker in town or talking to Dr. Bowen about her father? I'm in the middle of reading her Inquest so I might find it there.

However, about the wrapper she changed into- could it have been something she was wearing that morning and it was handy? I do think it's a bit of an odd choice to pick.

In addition, someone marked about her clothes being all blue or blue being the predominate color- if she thought she looked good in blue, wouldn't she have her clothes made in that color? I think it's safe to say that most females choose colors they look or feel good in for their clothes.

Hello MysteryReader. It's in the testimony of Mrs Churchill, who was the Bordens' next door neighbour, a widow, and one of the women who were fussing around Lizzie straight after the murder. Lizzie may have thought of that firm (strange though it seems to us) because she both liked being fashionable (only the best will do) and because Andrew knew Mr Winwood, both being in the same sort of business, so to speak, when Andrew was younger.
I do think Lizzie liked herself in blue, which is my favourite colour too, by the way! She would have had to have some other colours/shades in her wardrobe too, I suppose. She wore black lace to her father's funeral. Perhaps she also thought she looked pretty in pink! You can tell she loved clothes.

Curryong wrote:Hello MysteryReader. It's in the testimony of Mrs Churchill, who was the Bordens' next door neighbour, a widow, and one of the women who were fussing around Lizzie straight after the murder. Lizzie may have thought of that firm (strange though it seems to us) because she both liked being fashionable (only the best will do) and because Andrew knew Mr Winwood, both being in the same sort of business, so to speak, when Andrew was younger.
I do think Lizzie liked herself in blue, which is my favourite colour too, by the way! She would have had to have some other colours/shades in her wardrobe too, I suppose. She wore black lace to her father's funeral. Perhaps she also thought she looked pretty in pink! You can tell she loved clothes.

Thank you, Curryong! I haven't found any testimony of Mrs. Churchill (going to go looking now) although I remember her being there shortly after the discovery. I believe she would have had to, also. I just need to keep reading- there is so much out there.

The illegitimate son, William S. Borden is up for question- I read somewhere (I didn't make note of it then but am making notes now) that he would drink and claim to anyone who would listen that he was Andrew's illegitimate son and made reference about his 'rich' relatives. However, on another site, I found his death certificate and it listed Charles L Borden as his father. Would Charles be brother to Andrew? I've not looked into Andrew's side of the family.

This is what Len Rebello says about William S. Borden. By the way, the Fall River area seems to have masses of Bordens, Bordens everywhere!
'It was alleged by author Arthur R. Brown that William S. Borden, the illegitimate son of Andrew J Borden and Phebe Borden (the wife of Deacon Charles L C Borden) committed the Borden murders in 1892. William Borden's family was researched through primary and secondary sources. No information was located to substantiate Mr Brown's allegations.'
(Rebello. Lizzie Borden: Past and Present. Page 373.)

Rebello's book is regarded as an absolute bible on the case by students of the Borden mystery. Unfortunately, it is both expensive and hard to come by. And it's not going to be reprinted, sob.!

Yes, I'll have to see if I can find the link that showed the death certificate for William S. Borden that listed his father as Charles Borden and the mother as Phebe Borden. I guess that they could have covered the affair and Charles raised him as his own. Both of the males are ones I've not researched yet.

Hello everyone. I just read right now this thread and the replies, especially, I admit, those of FactFinder and those concerning her.

I am very sorry for her leaving and that of Allen. I had noticed the absence of Allen but, having read what she lately wrote about me, I really didn't link myself to her absence. I sent a private message to her and to another memember to ask information. But only now, after reading FactFinder, I know that Allen has left the forum.

I read the reply of NancyDrew. I don't know for what reason exactly Yooper hasn't posted no more for several months. Even though I think I did experience verbal violence from his part, I am very sorry as well for his leaving. Every member's leaving is a lost for the forum. He could have chosen to remain here and to ignore me, as Stefani recommanded more than one time.

About FactFinder, I would like to add a word: FactFinder expressed her frustrations caused by me, and her decision of leaving the forum, under this thread "Lizzie's Dresses", in the date of Februry 8th. I checked out my posts anterior to this date, and I found my last post before this date is one for the thread "Lifetime Movies", Februry 3rd. From Februry 3rd to 8th, in these 5 days, I didn't post nothing. (I visited the forum Februry 9th and posted 4 replies, but I didn't visit this present thread). It is a little difficult for me to understand why FactFinder, after my absence of 5 days, while discussing Lizzie's Dresses with other memebers, suddenly felt the necessity to express her frustrations caused by me and suddenly announced that she was ready to leave. I don't understand very well.

I notice that FactFinder joined the forum Jan. 6th and left Februry 8th. I checked out my posts and I found that during this 33days the unique thread that has a significant link with my theory is that entitled "From another point of view, always about the note and Morse", that I posted Jan. 17th, but in this thread I only discussed the origin of the note and the involvment of Morse, under the hypothesis that Lizzie was innocent. What might have made FactFinder fell frustated, I have already expressed long time before she joined the forum. If, as FactFinder herself said, she had been visiting the forum for many years, and if she had found that my threads or replies frustrated her, why did she decide to join the forum?

And, after I said in a reply (I don't recall to whom) that I would not be able to visit the forum for a few months, and after 5 days of my absence - this never occured before --, FactFinder suddenly decided to leave, mentionning in the most explicit manner that I was the cause.

Could I be sincere with myself and with FactFinder and with everyone of you? I wonder what was the real motive of FactFinder to join the forum, and I wonder about her identity.

Franz, it was me you said it to, ages ago in one of the other forums here, not the Lizzie one. From my point of view I think FactFinder was one of those people who have tons of facts filed away so that if anyone asked a question she could instantly answer it and show how clever she was. That is my take on her.

I don't think she was one of those pests who on occasion (having been banned, or left) attempt to get back onto the Forum. I think she genuinely was a new member.

It was helpful at times to get those instant answers, complete with sources. No doubt about it. However she was obnoxious in that FactFinder couldn't stand other posters (including newbies) not providing quotes, sources, etc. and would make her feelings known. She also couldn't stand being contradicted.

I noticed that when there was a debate about Abby's aprons. She clashed with me over that because I disagreed with her conclusions. Then came the big clash, on this thread, with Catbooks, about beach pants. Contradicted again, this time by someone with knowledge, FactFinder lost her temper. So I don't think it was anything you did, Franz. It was all of us. We just didn't come up to her high standards LOL.

NancyDrew wrote:...

I have some very definite opinions about WHO FactFinder is, but I'm going to keep them to myself.

...

Me too, I'm going to keep my conjecture to myself.

Ooh Franz, no, go on! Who do You think she/he was?

Franz wrote:Hello everyone. I just read right now this thread and the replies, especially, I admit, those of FactFinder and those concerning her.

I am very sorry for her leaving and that of Allen. I had noticed the absence of Allen but, having read what she lately wrote about me, I really didn't link myself to her absence. I sent a private message to her and to another memember to ask information. But only now, after reading FactFinder, I know that Allen has left the forum.

I read the reply of NancyDrew. I don't know for what reason exactly Yooper hasn't posted no more for several months. Even though I think I did experience verbal violence from his part, I am very sorry as well for his leaving. Every member's leaving is a lost for the forum. He could have chosen to remain here and to ignore me, as Stefani recommanded more than one time.

About FactFinder, I would like to add a word: FactFinder expressed her frustrations caused by me, and her decision of leaving the forum, under this thread "Lizzie's Dresses", in the date of Februry 8th. I checked out my posts anterior to this date, and I found my last post before this date is one for the thread "Lifetime Movies", Februry 3rd. From Februry 3rd to 8th, in these 5 days, I didn't post nothing. (I visited the forum Februry 9th and posted 4 replies, but I didn't visit this present thread). It is a little difficult for me to understand why FactFinder, after my absence of 5 days, while discussing Lizzie's Dresses with other memebers, suddenly felt the necessity to express her frustrations caused by me and suddenly announced that she was ready to leave. I don't understand very well.

Allen, mbhenty and Yooper were long term members, which was not the case with FactFinder. Allen had been a member for a little over 9 years, mbhenty was a member for almost 8 years and Yooper had been a member for over 7 years. FactFinder, on the other hand, was a member for 36 days! I greatly miss Allen, who had a vast amount of facts, which she graciously shared with us, regarding the Borden case. I also really miss mbhenty, who gave us a tremendous amount of Fall River history, provided us with the most awesome photos of Fall River houses and buildings, as well as kept us informed as to what was happening to Maplecroft. I sincerely miss Yooper, who had a way of presenting some very insightful ways of looking at a particular subject, and I truly enjoyed reading his posts. Although FactFinder gave of some facts about the Borden case, I have to be honest and say, I do not miss her. Three out of the four people I mentioned have requested that their membership be cancelled. I find this extremely sad, and a huge loss to this forum. All of these people could have simply ignored the posters whom they found frustrating or just stopped posting.


Franz, you are not the only member FactFinder was frustrated with – if you re-read her posts, she slammed ALL of the remaining members.

Franz wrote:I notice that FactFinder joined the forum Jan. 6th and left Februry 8th. I checked out my posts and I found that during this 33days the unique thread that has a significant link with my theory is that entitled "From another point of view, always about the note and Morse", that I posted Jan. 17th, but in this thread I only discussed the origin of the note and the involvment of Morse, under the hypothesis that Lizzie was innocent. What might have made FactFinder fell frustated, I have already expressed long time before she joined the forum. If, as FactFinder herself said, she had been visiting the forum for many years, and if she had found that my threads or replies frustrated her, why did she decide to join the forum?

And, after I said in a reply (I don't recall to whom) that I would not be able to visit the forum for a few months, and after 5 days of my absence - this never occured before --, FactFinder suddenly decided to leave, mentionning in the most explicit manner that I was the cause.

Could I be sincere with myself and with FactFinder and with everyone of you? I wonder what was the real motive of FactFinder to join the forum, and I wonder about her identity.

Why FactFinder joined this forum, since she was frustrated with it before she joined, then why did she decide to join, is a very good question. Again, you were not the cause of her leaving, it was her frustration with ALL us. I also wonder what the real motive was for her joining the forum, as well as her identity.

Yes, Franz and NanyDrew, please tell us!

twinsrwe wrote: ...

Franz, you are not the only member FactFinder was frustrated with – if you re-read her posts, she slammed ALL of the remaining members.

twinsrwe, thank you for saying so. I re-read her replies and I think you are right. Even though, I am obviously the black sheep of the family.

Maybe I have been politically incorrect. Many long-term members, ages ago, had discussed the suspicion around Morse. Compared to their excellent observations, what I wrote in my 9 threads about Morse had almost nothing of new. However, the main difference between these members and me is that they remain more prudent than me, they didn't make a conclusion, but I adventured a little more than someone can tolerate.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Franz, I reiterate what twinsrwe has said, and from what I observed at the time, (a) FactFinder couldn't bear to be contradicted, and (b) 'the straw that broke the camel's back' for her seems to have been the argument about beach pants.

You're welcome, Franz. I'm glad you took the time to re-read FactFinders posts, and came to the conclusion that she really did slam ALL of us. I don't consider you to be 'the black sheep of the family'; I think FactFinder named you simply because she couldn't get you to change your belief in Lizzie's innocence. Now I admit, that I had to shake my head a few times, with some of the things you came up with in your theory, because you tend to provide an answer that fit into your belief, no matter what any poster said.

We all have the right to believe whatever we want; that is what makes this forum so enjoyable. I enjoy reading the views of all the members, because everyone believes something different about the Borden case. The members who believe Lizzie is guilty, have different reasons as to why they believe in her guilt. The same goes for the members who believe Lizzie is innocent.

BTW: What does 'Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa' mean?

Curryong wrote:Franz, I reiterate what twinsrwe has said, and from what I observed at the time, (a) FactFinder couldn't bear to be contradicted, and (b) 'the straw that broke the camel's back' for her seems to have been the argument about beach pants.

Thank you, Curryong; I totally agree!!!

twinsrwe wrote:... Now I admit, that I had to shake my head a few times, with some of the things you came up with in your theory, because you tend to provide an answer that fit into your belief, no matter what any poster said...

The last phrase in Latin means: it's my fault, my fault, my great fault.

Franz wrote:... The last phrase in Latin means: it's my fault, my fault, my great fault.

Thanks, Franz! However, I don't think it is any more your fault than mine! FactFinder, admitted that she was frustrated with this forum before she joined; she already had a chip on her shoulder when she applied for membership. Actually, if anyone is at fault, I'd say, it has to be FactFinder!

twinsrwe wrote:

Franz wrote:... The last phrase in Latin means: it's my fault, my fault, my great fault.

Thanks, Franz! However, I don't think it is any more your fault than mine! FactFinder, admitted that she was frustrated with this forum before she joined; she already had a chip on her shoulder when she applied for membership. Actually, if anyone is at fault, I'd say, it has to be FactFinder!

This is exactly correct.

Thanks, Anthony!

the entire debacle has been years in the making.

Let's have a rest. I found a catalogue of an exposition in Japan, 1980: "Evolution of Fashion: 1835-1895". I reproduce here some pictures. I reproduced only a very few pictures of the whole book, so I hope there is no problem of copyright.

Redingote, Label: Worth, Paris, circa 1894-98.

Shirt Waist Dress, Gibson Girl Style, circa 1893.

Skating Costume, circa 1890.

Tennis Ensemble, circa 1890.

Day Suit, circa 1893.

Corsets, circa 1880's - 1890's.