Bring back my Emma to me....
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- Kat
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Spiering, Lizzie, pg. 27, a description, supposedly from the town "neighbors":
"THERE WOULD NEVER BE A PHOTOGRAPH of Emma Borden. She remains an enigmatic, mysterious creature, virtually anonymous in the glare of her sister's notoriety.
There would be only a single pencil drawing: with her sharp shoulders pulled in, she sits quietly on a bench beside Lizzie, her black-gloved hand clutching at her eyes.
One encounters a pristine blankness, an ominous, puzzling vacancy about Emma. The few details that are known of her suggest that she possessed no personality at all, that she was devoid of emotions. But in looking further there appears a darker, more tenacious element that even her own verbal reticence could not fully conceal.
Is it more than imagination which causes us to focus so on this Victorian lady?
Neighbors in the town of Fall River remembered Emma as a small, plain-looking woman who appeared to desire nothing so much as to be overlooked. Their accounts of her agree that she was prim-looking, extremely quiet, retiring, that she was thin-faced with bony, pale features.
Her few friends seemed to find something flattering in her friendship, as if gaining the confidence of a shy, wild animal. She was timid and invariably evasive. She was never known to have a special talent. She did not long to travel, as did so many ladies of her day. She never married, never had a beau and took no part in the social life of that industrious Massachusetts community on the banks of the Quequechan River twelve miles northwest of New Bedford."
--Haven't found the height yet. How would he know?
"THERE WOULD NEVER BE A PHOTOGRAPH of Emma Borden. She remains an enigmatic, mysterious creature, virtually anonymous in the glare of her sister's notoriety.
There would be only a single pencil drawing: with her sharp shoulders pulled in, she sits quietly on a bench beside Lizzie, her black-gloved hand clutching at her eyes.
One encounters a pristine blankness, an ominous, puzzling vacancy about Emma. The few details that are known of her suggest that she possessed no personality at all, that she was devoid of emotions. But in looking further there appears a darker, more tenacious element that even her own verbal reticence could not fully conceal.
Is it more than imagination which causes us to focus so on this Victorian lady?
Neighbors in the town of Fall River remembered Emma as a small, plain-looking woman who appeared to desire nothing so much as to be overlooked. Their accounts of her agree that she was prim-looking, extremely quiet, retiring, that she was thin-faced with bony, pale features.
Her few friends seemed to find something flattering in her friendship, as if gaining the confidence of a shy, wild animal. She was timid and invariably evasive. She was never known to have a special talent. She did not long to travel, as did so many ladies of her day. She never married, never had a beau and took no part in the social life of that industrious Massachusetts community on the banks of the Quequechan River twelve miles northwest of New Bedford."
--Haven't found the height yet. How would he know?
- Kat
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More Spiering, 216-217. He says Julian Ralph described Emma as shorter than Lizzie:
"She was clad completely in black, relieved only by a touch of blue in the plume of her hat. People craning their necks for a full view observed that she wore black gloves and black patent leather boots. It would be the only chance anyone would ever have to study Emma Borden.
Once more she eluded them.
So devoid was she of any outstanding physical characteristics that the reporters watching almost had to create her. They began by trying to capture her eyes.
Julian Ralph of the New York Sun noticed that she had 'big brown eyes, a high forehead and a strong, coarsely modelled mouth,' and that she was 'not as tall or as big boned as Lizzie.'
The correspondent from the New York World found that she possessed 'eyes with dark circles' and "a curious, almost weazened little face.'
The portrayal given by the man from the New York Herald was more incisive. What he saw was a 'prim little woman, very frail, with a careworn face and big black eyes that have a scared expression.'
Joe Howard had described many of the earlier witnesses with swift jabs of humor. But when it came to Emma, he drew back discreetly: 'She is over forty years of age, and looks it---a little, old-fashioned New England maiden, dressed with exceeding neatness in plain black, with the impress of a Borden in every feature.'"
--For what it's worth.
"She was clad completely in black, relieved only by a touch of blue in the plume of her hat. People craning their necks for a full view observed that she wore black gloves and black patent leather boots. It would be the only chance anyone would ever have to study Emma Borden.
Once more she eluded them.
So devoid was she of any outstanding physical characteristics that the reporters watching almost had to create her. They began by trying to capture her eyes.
Julian Ralph of the New York Sun noticed that she had 'big brown eyes, a high forehead and a strong, coarsely modelled mouth,' and that she was 'not as tall or as big boned as Lizzie.'
The correspondent from the New York World found that she possessed 'eyes with dark circles' and "a curious, almost weazened little face.'
The portrayal given by the man from the New York Herald was more incisive. What he saw was a 'prim little woman, very frail, with a careworn face and big black eyes that have a scared expression.'
Joe Howard had described many of the earlier witnesses with swift jabs of humor. But when it came to Emma, he drew back discreetly: 'She is over forty years of age, and looks it---a little, old-fashioned New England maiden, dressed with exceeding neatness in plain black, with the impress of a Borden in every feature.'"
--For what it's worth.
- Kat
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Spiering, Lizzie, pg. 27, Emma:
"THERE WOULD NEVER BE A PHOTOGRAPH of Emma Borden. She remains an enigmatic, mysterious creature, virtually anonymous in the glare of her sister's notoriety.
There would be only a single pencil drawing: with her sharp shoulders pulled in, she sits quietly on a bench beside Lizzie, her black-gloved hand clutching at her eyes."
Here is the drawing referred to. It is in Pearson's Trial.
"THERE WOULD NEVER BE A PHOTOGRAPH of Emma Borden. She remains an enigmatic, mysterious creature, virtually anonymous in the glare of her sister's notoriety.
There would be only a single pencil drawing: with her sharp shoulders pulled in, she sits quietly on a bench beside Lizzie, her black-gloved hand clutching at her eyes."
Here is the drawing referred to. It is in Pearson's Trial.
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- Liz Crouthers
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Wow Kat!
I never considered that the guy outside could have been Emma.
But would Emma kill her Father too?
Emma would answer the "someone sneaking into the house" question, perhaps even had a front door key.
Emma would know the layout of the house and the habits of those living there and where and when she might have things done.
I'm not sure Emma's alibi was completely checked - best I've seen was that could have been at several places in Fairhaven, and she did get back a little slowly, but I always thought it was understandable. Why take a fast train to hell?
But if Emma did it, I would think killing off Mrs. Borden would be plenty, and she'd be long gone by the time Mr. arrived.
Emma could have participated in another way.
On another matter I read in posts that Bridget's back door key had been missing for a year or so. I thought Bridget came and went at night from the back door. Was that left open for her, or did she come in by the front as Lizzie did?
I never considered that the guy outside could have been Emma.
But would Emma kill her Father too?
Emma would answer the "someone sneaking into the house" question, perhaps even had a front door key.
Emma would know the layout of the house and the habits of those living there and where and when she might have things done.
I'm not sure Emma's alibi was completely checked - best I've seen was that could have been at several places in Fairhaven, and she did get back a little slowly, but I always thought it was understandable. Why take a fast train to hell?
But if Emma did it, I would think killing off Mrs. Borden would be plenty, and she'd be long gone by the time Mr. arrived.
Emma could have participated in another way.
On another matter I read in posts that Bridget's back door key had been missing for a year or so. I thought Bridget came and went at night from the back door. Was that left open for her, or did she come in by the front as Lizzie did?
- FairhavenGuy
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Based on how inaccurate the portait of Lizzie is in that sketch, I doubt we should infer much about Emma from it.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
- Smudgeman
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I agree Fairhavenguy, I don't think any of the court drawings resemble the girls very accurately. They may depict the clothing and the various postures from them, but they are not realistic when compared to photographs. Too bad we don't have real photographs from the trial, or at least a better artist rendition.
- Smudgeman
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I also agree with John, that yes, Emma could have contributed to the murders in another way, but I don't see her dressed in men's clothing, running back and forth in a carriage. Somehow that seems a bit far-fetched to me, and requires too much effort on her part. After all, she is a lady of leisure, why not have someone else do that for you?
- Kat
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The item mentions no photograph of Emma and so they relied on the sketches. Personally, I think Emma would look more like the other girl, and the shaded-eyes person would be Lizzie.
It's just an interesting example. I had to figure out which book it was in, scan it, reduce it and post it, just to illustrate the item.
Anyway, there is a photograph, so that problem, for us, is moot --but back then, those drawings were what the world saw as Emma and that's probably how they remembered her and formed opinions on her character from those drawings.
(I've seen some doozies lately!!)
Can't underestimate the power of a courtroom drawing, before photos in newspapers and before movies and TV, right?
It's just an interesting example. I had to figure out which book it was in, scan it, reduce it and post it, just to illustrate the item.
Anyway, there is a photograph, so that problem, for us, is moot --but back then, those drawings were what the world saw as Emma and that's probably how they remembered her and formed opinions on her character from those drawings.
(I've seen some doozies lately!!)
Can't underestimate the power of a courtroom drawing, before photos in newspapers and before movies and TV, right?
- FairhavenGuy
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Kat, I agree that the girl without her face covered looks more like the photograph of Emma. The one with her face covered seems to have a fuller, younger looking face, from the small, sketchy part of it is visible. I think the newspaper screwed up the caption.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
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***Personally, I think Emma would look more like the other girl, and the shaded-eyes person would be Lizzie.***
i've always thought this too. and i've always doubted it. it's that it doesn't quite look like lizzie? but the composition and the way the values are distributed -- clearly attention is drawn to the two women, and particularly the larger one -- could this be the reason it is supposed to be lizzie, because the sketch artist thought so but mistakenly? or did someone at the press actually assume who was who, when in reality the sketch artist simply drew what he saw and he was mistaken about who was who or was not sure or..?? i don't know....i've always doubted it. i think it has also been confused when it has been printed--as to which woman is which. this is a good question. just take the face that is supposed to be lizzie (the larger, prominent one with face showing) and compare it to the other courtroom drawings of lizzie -- then you really have to wonder. i'm going to look carefully again at the illustrations in the rebello book.
i've always thought this too. and i've always doubted it. it's that it doesn't quite look like lizzie? but the composition and the way the values are distributed -- clearly attention is drawn to the two women, and particularly the larger one -- could this be the reason it is supposed to be lizzie, because the sketch artist thought so but mistakenly? or did someone at the press actually assume who was who, when in reality the sketch artist simply drew what he saw and he was mistaken about who was who or was not sure or..?? i don't know....i've always doubted it. i think it has also been confused when it has been printed--as to which woman is which. this is a good question. just take the face that is supposed to be lizzie (the larger, prominent one with face showing) and compare it to the other courtroom drawings of lizzie -- then you really have to wonder. i'm going to look carefully again at the illustrations in the rebello book.
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I know I just read that Bridget said her back door key had been missing for a year or so.
Also I agree, and always thought the distinctive drawing was Emma, because it looks nothing like Lizzie. But then the drawing with the gloved hand over face doesn't look like Lizzie either, so maybe just a bad drawer.
Also I agree, and always thought the distinctive drawing was Emma, because it looks nothing like Lizzie. But then the drawing with the gloved hand over face doesn't look like Lizzie either, so maybe just a bad drawer.
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That same photo that Kat posted is in the Sourcebook, page 125.
It lists the order as Emma, Lizzie and Mr. Buck.
Emma is described in several newspapers as keeping her face covered. Lizzie was usually described as hiding behind a fan.
Personally I think it's Lizzie and then Emma.
It lists the order as Emma, Lizzie and Mr. Buck.
Emma is described in several newspapers as keeping her face covered. Lizzie was usually described as hiding behind a fan.
Personally I think it's Lizzie and then Emma.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
- Kat
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There's a sketch of Emma in Lizzie Borden: Did She? ... or ... Didn't She? near the back of the book -- on the page with the Evening Standard article for Friday, June 16, 1893:4.
That's the same one that's included in a group of Emma sketches in Rebello on page 216.
And Kat, did you find the one on page 291 of the Sourcebook?
That's the same one that's included in a group of Emma sketches in Rebello on page 216.
And Kat, did you find the one on page 291 of the Sourcebook?
- Tina-Kate
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From The Boston Herald, June 16, 1893 (Sourcebook, pg 291) -- "...Emma Borden...They were surprised when they saw the elder of the distressed sisters and noted how much older she was than Lizzie, how much slighter of frame, and how much plainer in appearance. Miss Emma walked and looked like a self-reliant woman, and spoke with a firm, clear voice. It was a kindly voice, and was often accompanied by a very pleasant smile. Her appearance suggested that she might be of a lighter heart than Lizzie, but she took pains to tell the court that she was more prejudiced and narrow minded." That drawing Kat posted must have been at the preliminary hearing, as Emma was not allowed at the Trial until it was time for her to testify. I also see it's dated Aug 1892.
“I am innocent. I leave it to my counsel to speak for me.”
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
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- Kat
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So you think the Illustrated American drawing was from the preliminary hearing? So it's date of August, 1892 is correct.
Oh I see! It says Fall River Court!
Thanks TK!
BTW: Emma would be allowed to sit with Lizzie after she had testified, even at the preliminary hearing. So the order in which she testified would give information as to the day Emma was drawn sitting there, Liz.
Oh I see! It says Fall River Court!
Thanks TK!
BTW: Emma would be allowed to sit with Lizzie after she had testified, even at the preliminary hearing. So the order in which she testified would give information as to the day Emma was drawn sitting there, Liz.
- Tina-Kate
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At the trial, *all* witnesses were required to stay out of court until called, not just Emma. The reason being so they would not color their own testimony by having listened to other people testify. Gov Robinson made a BIG stink, for instance, when Knowlton tried to get Dr Dolan back to testify re the prussic acid stuff after the Dr had been sitting there listening to all subsequent witnesses after his own testimony. The judge ended up excusing Dr Dolan from testifying re prussic acid. Re Emma, she didn't testify at Trial til the defence side of the case (which only took one day -- I *think* Day 10), so she would not have been sitting with Lizzie until the last few days. I'm not sure of the order of the Prelim.
“I am innocent. I leave it to my counsel to speak for me.”
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
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Oh, BTW Kat -- David Kent very nicely placed the *Illustrated American* drawing on pg 125 of the Sourcebook, among his articles of the Prelim. That's how I knew. One of the reasons I love the Sourcebook is how careful Kent is with the order. Many authors have used the illustrations wherever they best fit their own narrative, adapting illustrations from one court to show things from another. Very confusing! I love Kent.
“I am innocent. I leave it to my counsel to speak for me.”
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
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- Tina-Kate
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Correcting myself -- The Defence took approx 1-1/2 days, roughly 1/2 of Day 10 & all of Day 11. Emma didn't testify til Day 11, Friday June 16, 1893. Days 12 & 13 were the closing arguments, the Judge's charge to the jury & the verdict. I couldn't find any mention of Emma's presence at the last days of the trial, except when the verdict was read (Sourcebook pg 311). There is also a picture on that page showing a smaller woman with a fan over her face, sitting in front of Lizzie as Lizzie cries for joy at the "Not Guilty". This is possibly Emma. The picture is also on the website, altho this woman is partially cut-off --
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries ... urcebk.jpg
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries ... urcebk.jpg
“I am innocent. I leave it to my counsel to speak for me.”
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
- Kat
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Thanks TK!Tina-Kate @ Sat May 14, 2005 3:05 pm wrote:Oh, BTW Kat -- David Kent very nicely placed the *Illustrated American* drawing on pg 125 of the Sourcebook, among his articles of the Prelim. That's how I knew. One of the reasons I love the Sourcebook is how careful Kent is with the order. Many authors have used the illustrations wherever they best fit their own narrative, adapting illustrations from one court to show things from another. Very confusing! I love Kent.
Someone here wants to know the dates of the articles in The Sourcebook.
He could have given the paper and date as source. He drives me crazy!
But I've learned to live with it
I can only offer this person the info that if you really read your copy you can make an educated guess as to the date of an item, if the date doesn't come at the beginning of the item. You go by the events being explained- and if one you are reading has a date and the next says "yesterday" or something like that, you can deduce.
Good luck!
- Tina-Kate
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Kent put the *Sourcebook* together using his friend Robert Flynn's collection of Lizzie newspaper clippings, originally compiled by William Emery, a reporter for the New Bedford *Evening Journal*. So, I think Kent had no idea where each article originally came from, as they were clipped out of the source newspapers. Different from Rebello, who is wonderful in crawling thru archives & giving exact dates.
“I am innocent. I leave it to my counsel to speak for me.”
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
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Tina-Kate @ Sat May 14, 2005 5:50 pm wrote:Correcting myself -- The Defence took approx 1-1/2 days, roughly 1/2 of Day 10 & all of Day 11. Emma didn't testify til Day 11, Friday June 16, 1893. Days 12 & 13 were the closing arguments, the Judge's charge to the jury & the verdict. I couldn't find any mention of Emma's presence at the last days of the trial, except when the verdict was read (Sourcebook pg 311). There is also a picture on that page showing a smaller woman with a fan over her face, sitting in front of Lizzie as Lizzie cries for joy at the "Not Guilty". This is possibly Emma. The picture is also on the website, altho this woman is partially cut-off --
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries ... urcebk.jpg
Thank You Tina-Kate, I never would have thought of that. If you look at the First courtroom sketch It has a pic of both the girls with Emma's hair in the exact same style as your young lady, so maybe that's her.
- Allen
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Robello page 82:diana @ Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:43 pm wrote:Yes, I worry that we may have been maligning our Emma just a bit here. We’ve made some assumptions based on the ll:32 a.m. time stamp on Dr. Bowen’s telegram which presumably shows when it was sent from Fall River. But after it came in at the telegraph office in Fairhaven, it would then have to be hand delivered to the Brownell residence and may not have even have arrived there until around noon.
Note: Emma testified at the Inquest (p. 107) and trial (p.1550) that she had been visiting Miss Helen Brownell for two weeks. Miss Brownell was a fifty- four year old dressmaker. Her mother, Mrs. Rebecca ( Delano) Brownell, was seventy - eight years old. They resided at 19 Green Street Fairhaven, Massachusetts. Miss Brownell and her mother were living in the house of seventy- seven year old Moses ( Delano), the brother of Rebecca ( Delano) Brownell and his seventy- four year old wife, Amanda F. Delano. Miss Helen Brownell and her mother were never called to testify at any of the legal hearings.
Dr. Bowen sent a telegram to Emma from the Western Union Telegraph Co. ( 2 Richard Borden Block, corner of South Main, corner of Pocasset Street) where he remained a few minutes. ( Trial: 331-322) He returned to the Borden House at 11:40 a.m. where he was told that Abby Borden was found murdered in the guest room. (Trial:322)
The telegram was more than likely sent to the Western Union Co. in New Bedford . In 1892, the telegraph company had several telegraph locations; 32 Water Street, Parker House, Northern Depot and 51 William Street. The Postal Telegraph Co., another telegraph company in New Bedford, was at 126 Union Street. There was no telegraph office in Fairhaven, Massachusetts, in 1892. The first wireless telegraph was sent by Mr. Joseph K. Nyes from Fish Island, Fairhaven, in 1902. ( The Star, November 15, 1902:3)
Emma left Fairhaven by carriage or from the Fairhaven Railroad Station. She arrived at the Pearl Street Railway Station in New Bedford then took the 3:40 p.m. train to Weir Junction and proceeded on to the Bowenville Station in Fall River. ( Inquest:107) Emma arrived in Fall River at 5 p.m. ( Trial: 1550)
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
- Kat
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Wasn't there a source which claimed Emma arrived around 6?
I did check the trial and it does say Emma said 5- that's correct- but I recall 6 pm from somewhere?
I checked Bridget and Alice and The Evening Standard and skimmed thru Brown, Lincoln and Radin. Radin says testimony merely says Emma arrived in the "afternoon", which is incorrect.
Humph.
Can't find it.
Oh crikey! There's 10 pages here on this topic! I bet it's buried in page 5!
I did check the trial and it does say Emma said 5- that's correct- but I recall 6 pm from somewhere?
I checked Bridget and Alice and The Evening Standard and skimmed thru Brown, Lincoln and Radin. Radin says testimony merely says Emma arrived in the "afternoon", which is incorrect.
Humph.
Can't find it.
Oh crikey! There's 10 pages here on this topic! I bet it's buried in page 5!
- FairhavenGuy
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I just mentioned to Susan in another thread that there are errors in Rebello. There are two here.Allen @ Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:55 am wrote:
Robello page 82:
The telegram was more than likely sent to the Western Union Co. in New Bedford . In 1892, the telegraph company had several telegraph locations; 32 Water Street, Parker House, Northern Depot and 51 William Street. The Postal Telegraph Co., another telegraph company in New Bedford, was at 126 Union Street. There was no telegraph office in Fairhaven, Massachusetts, in 1892. The first wireless telegraph was sent by Mr. Joseph K. Nyes from Fish Island, Fairhaven, in 1902. ( The Star, November 15, 1902:3)
Emma left Fairhaven by carriage or from the Fairhaven Railroad Station. She arrived at the Pearl Street Railway Station in New Bedford then took the 3:40 p.m. train to Weir Junction and proceeded on to the Bowenville Station in Fall River. ( Inquest:107) Emma arrived in Fall River at 5 p.m. ( Trial: 1550)
First, I am quite certain that there was a telegraph office in our Fairhaven railroad station long before 1892. The newspaper article about Joseph K. Nye in 1902 is about a "wireless"telegraph, which is an entirely different animal. (Also Fish Island is part of New Bedford, so it really has nothing to do with Fairhaven directly, even though our newspaper reported it.)
Second, Fairhaven's Branch Railroad line came in from the east--from Wareham and running through Marion, Mattapoisett and into Fairhaven where it ended at the waterfront. It was virtually impossible to take the Fairhaven train to the Pearl Street station in New Bedford. The lines didn't connect. Emma would have to have taken a carriage or a horse-drawn trolley across the Fairhaven-New Bedford Bridge to get to the train station at Pearl Street. Rebello suggests the Fairhaven train was a possibility. It was not.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
- Harry
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Heavens Chris you must have been reading my mind! I swore I remembered something similar you had posted in the past about Fairhaven having a telegraph office. Was about to PM you when you posted this. Wow, that was scary!FairhavenGuy @ Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:17 am wrote:Allen @ Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:55 am wrote:First, I am quite certain that there was a telegraph office in our Fairhaven railroad station long before 1892. The newspaper article about Joseph K. Nye in 1902 is about a "wireless"telegraph, which is an entirely different animal. (Also Fish Island is part of New Bedford, so it really has nothing to do with Fairhaven directly, even though our newspaper reported it.)
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
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And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
- FairhavenGuy
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Yes, Harry. I could read your mind. I remember your comment at the time about not being able to trust anything you read.
This telegraph thing is one of those little details that I really need to follow up on to be absolutely certain of. I may have also mentioned at the time that Fairhaven had telephones since 1880.
This telegraph thing is one of those little details that I really need to follow up on to be absolutely certain of. I may have also mentioned at the time that Fairhaven had telephones since 1880.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
- snokkums
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- Allen
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I think it all boils down to how the telegram was worded, and what time it was delivered. Not to mention that she still had to pack after she had received the telegram, maybe gotten over the initial shock, explained it the other occupants at the house, arrange for transportation to the train station as we don't even know if there was transportation handy at the Brownells, checked the train schedule, and all this without the benefit of a phone or any of the other luxuries that we today take for granted. Planning to travel back then, even during an emergency, was no quick undertaking. They couldn't just call Emma and tell her about the tragedy. They had to rely on telegrams, and the person delivering it. You could not just call the train station to get the schedule,then just hop into the car with your suitcases and head home.snokkums @ Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:33 am wrote:It still bothers me that emma didn't rush home when she heard there was an emergancy. I know if there was an emergancy with my parents I wouldn't hesitate to get home.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
- FairhavenGuy
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I've found a note in Old-Time Fairhaven by Charles Harris, (Vol. I), stating that there was telegraph service from New Bedford through to Tremont (Wareham) by 1856, via the railroad, which had been established two years earlier.
A messenger going from the Fairhaven train station to the Brownell's home would need to travel three blocks north on Main Street, then three blocks east on Washington Street to Green. It's a very short trip, made even quicker with a bicycle.
To emphasize again: a telegraph might come in to this railroad station, but one would NOT go to this station to travel to New Bedford or Fall River, because the train tracks in Fairhaven did not cross the Acushnet River to New Bedford.
A messenger going from the Fairhaven train station to the Brownell's home would need to travel three blocks north on Main Street, then three blocks east on Washington Street to Green. It's a very short trip, made even quicker with a bicycle.
To emphasize again: a telegraph might come in to this railroad station, but one would NOT go to this station to travel to New Bedford or Fall River, because the train tracks in Fairhaven did not cross the Acushnet River to New Bedford.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
- Allen
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She did take a train, regardless of where it was from, and she still needed transportation to reach the station. Were messages routinely delivered as soon as they were received? How many messengers did they employ at the time? What if they were out delivering other telegrams at the time this message came in? Did they deliver by bicycle or on foot? There are always variables to consider. No matter how straight forward something may seem. This is something I'm getting pounded into my head over and over, and I've learned to think everything through this way. So I tend to nit pick a little, and I apologize. But if anything was ever as easy as it seemed, this case would've been solved.FairhavenGuy @ Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:34 pm wrote:I've found a note in Old-Time Fairhaven by Charles Harris, (Vol. I), stating that there was telegraph service from New Bedford through to Tremont (Wareham) by 1856, via the railroad, which had been established two years earlier.
A messenger going from the Fairhaven train station to the Brownell's home would need to travel three blocks north on Main Street, then three blocks east on Washington Street to Green. It's a very short trip, made even quicker with a bicycle.
To emphasize again: a telegraph might come in to this railroad station, but one would NOT go to this station to travel to New Bedford or Fall River, because the train tracks in Fairhaven did not cross the Acushnet River to New Bedford.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
- snokkums
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bring emma home tome
Thats a good point. Makes you wander how they put the message to her. My thought is that they didn't want to tell her in a telegraph that her father and stepmother were killed. But still, that's a heck of way to come " Hey guess what glad you are back but your father and stepmother are dead"doug65oh @ Sat Feb 19, 2005 10:09 pm wrote:Something just occured to me. If the object was to expedite Emma's return from Fairhaven, wouldn't it have been simpler (and faster) to have Marshal Hilliard telephone the Fairhaven police, explain the situation, and have them get hold of Emma rather than depending on Bowen and the telegraph?
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- FairhavenGuy
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Yes, Melissa, she did take a train. I was merely correcting Mr. Rebello's assertion that she may have taken the train from Fairhaven.
Regarding phoning the Fairhaven police: Fairhaven had some constables in 1892, but no Police Department. I'm not certain how one might have reached the constables, but I don't think you could telephone them at a "police station." We didn't have one yet and the Town Hall, which eventually housed the police department, was still being built in August of 1892. (cornerstone laid May, 1892; dedication held Feb. 22, 1894)
By the way, the telegram was sent after the dicovery of Andrew but BEFORE the discovery of Abby, if I'm not mistaken.
One of the Fairhaven maps shows a barn on the property where the Brownell's lived, but there's no way of knowing if they had a carriage there. There were two livery stables within two-three blocks of the Brownell's and the trolley (horse-drawn until 1895) ran on Main Street, three blocks west of Green Street.
After getting the message, Emma would have to check the railroad timetable and arrange for some sort of transportation to the Pearl Street train station in New Bedford. She may or may not have packed all her belongings. (She had intended to stay the summer in Fairhaven, so she probably had a trunk or two. These could have been sent along after her.)
Getting back to Fall River, 15 miles away, by 5:00 seems long, but given the nature of travel at the time it's not unlikely that it was about the best she could do.
(But I also think that that it would have been possible for Emma to be in Fall River at 10:45 a.m. and get back to Fairhaven and then return again to Fall River by 5:00 p.m.)
Regarding phoning the Fairhaven police: Fairhaven had some constables in 1892, but no Police Department. I'm not certain how one might have reached the constables, but I don't think you could telephone them at a "police station." We didn't have one yet and the Town Hall, which eventually housed the police department, was still being built in August of 1892. (cornerstone laid May, 1892; dedication held Feb. 22, 1894)
By the way, the telegram was sent after the dicovery of Andrew but BEFORE the discovery of Abby, if I'm not mistaken.
One of the Fairhaven maps shows a barn on the property where the Brownell's lived, but there's no way of knowing if they had a carriage there. There were two livery stables within two-three blocks of the Brownell's and the trolley (horse-drawn until 1895) ran on Main Street, three blocks west of Green Street.
After getting the message, Emma would have to check the railroad timetable and arrange for some sort of transportation to the Pearl Street train station in New Bedford. She may or may not have packed all her belongings. (She had intended to stay the summer in Fairhaven, so she probably had a trunk or two. These could have been sent along after her.)
Getting back to Fall River, 15 miles away, by 5:00 seems long, but given the nature of travel at the time it's not unlikely that it was about the best she could do.
(But I also think that that it would have been possible for Emma to be in Fall River at 10:45 a.m. and get back to Fairhaven and then return again to Fall River by 5:00 p.m.)
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)