Dr. Bowen

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Kat
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Dr. Bowen

Post by Kat »

I never really thought of Dr. Bowen as a serious accomplice in these murders, tho others have. It was mentioned that he contradicts himself so I thought I would go looking to see how serious it was. I checked first the inquest, then the preliminary - then the witness statements. Not the trial. I figured he changed his statements enough in the few weeks after the murders, that following him up a year later would be useless. He seems to have a better, more informed and confident memory of events in the inquest, and by the time of the preliminary, where he says himself he has heard every opinion out there as he takes the stand- he is no longer confident at all. The only thing he seems to state with firmness is that he did not have tears streaming down his face after his first sight of Andrew's wounds and pronouncing him dead. In fact, he sounds arrogant that he did not have tears and implies it's a lie.

I noticed too that a bit of his inquest testimony was read back to him on the stand at the preliminary, but what was read was truncated. I thought that was odd. It was not word for word. I thought that was rather haphazard because that former testimony, which was not full text, made it into the hearing's record.

Here is that part:

Prelim
Bowen
Q. You testified about this matter before the Inquest?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Was your memory in a better condition then than it is now?
A. About the same. I do not think it is quite so good now.

Q. Did you say something of this kind, "I met Miss Lizzie in the hall. I says what is the matter Lizzie? I spoke pretty quick. She

Page 410

said I think my father has been stabbed or hurt. I said has there been anybody here. She said not that she knew of. She said she had overheard her father talking loud recently, and was afraid &c" That was so, was it?
A. So far as I remember, as near as I can remember.
.........

--Here is the real inquest transcription of Bowen:

I says “Lizzie what is the matter?” I spoke pretty quick. I says “what is the matter Lizzie?” She said she was afraid her father had been stabbed or hurt. I think the word stabbed was used. I says “has there been anybody here”? She said no, not as she knew of, I would not say that she said “no”, I take that back; she said not as she knew of, I think. She said she had overheard her father several times talking loud recently, and said she was afraid some of the tenants had had some trouble with him. That is just as near as I can remember it.
.............
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Kat
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Post by Kat »

Dr. Bowen says he was well-acquainted with the Bordens, but when pinned down as "intimately so?" he replies "Well, yes, neighbors." He doesn't know if Andrew would self-medicate though he says he is the family physician. (inq. 115). In the prelim (405) he says he seldom visits the Borden house, except for business, financial or professional.
Yet, when asked about the family relations in the Borden household and Lizzie's relationship with Abby he claims their relations were "harmonious and perfect and natural." (inq, 122)

He says he saw Andrew outside Wednesday, "two or three hours afterwards" [after seeing to Andrew's illness]. Then Bowen says he saw Lizzie walking up the street and concluded they were alright, "all of them." [Wednesday]. (inq, 116) In the prelim (408) Bowen says he did not see Lizzie Wednesday, rather it was his wife had said Lizzie was "going up the street, or going down street towards night..." He said his wife "accounted for Mr. Borden being out [Wednesday] and Lizzie being out..." Prelim (407) Bowen says he saw Andrew Wednesday morning but it was his wife who told him she saw Andrew "out on the sidewalk." Then he doesn't remember if he himself saw Andrew outside.

When he arrived at the Borden house Wednesday morning, he thought he saw Lizzie hurrying upstairs when he was let in the door.
inquest
Bowen
116
Q. Did you see Lizzie that morning?
A. She was just going up stairs as I went in the front door; I thought it was her, I am not quite sure.
Q. It was somebody you thought was Lizzie?
A. Yes Sir, somebody I supposed was Lizzie, I did not see her face.
Q. And did not talk to her?
A. No Sir.

--At the preliminary he really puts a qualifier on this sighting:
(408)
Q. Did you see Lizzie then?
A. I did not. I saw someone going up stairs, I do not know whether it was Bridget or Lizzie or Mrs. Borden, I did not see the face, I saw the form.

Q. Did you see Lizzie at all that day?
A. I think not.
...........

He's been hard to pin down as to the time he got word and the time he showed up at the Bordens. He admits he thought it was later than it was, that his driver had him believing (later) that he had arrived much earlier than his own first impression. It seems his first impression was probably more correct than his driver's but it adds more confusion.
At inquest (124) Bowen thinks he arrived at 11:10 am. (after changing his mind). He says his first impression was that it was 20 to 25 minutes past 11. He says he was back at the house at 11:30 am after telegraphing. (inq 125). In the preliminary (400) he says it was between 10 and 20 minutes past 11 am when he got the news. He does describe that at 11 am he was on South Main St. and met a fire department team near the head of Union (St.). (inq 125)
--This info might help somene trying to figure from which direction he was coming. In the prelim (400) he said he drove to his house from the south.

Bowen at inquest (121) had the "impression now that she [Lizzie] was at the side door, and opened the screen door, and the door was half opened, and was ready for me; that is my impression." At prelim (408) he doesn't know where Lizzie was when he came. She could have been at the "edge of kitchen or in the hall, or at the door." (Which covers all the places Lizzie could have been).

An odd thing is when he was asked about knowing if Andrew had any hatchets or axes he states he had never gone into the cellar in his life. He was the first to bring up the cellar- he was not asked about the cellar. (inq 122)

Another odd thing was when he said he was going to go for the police, is when Lizzie asked him to send the telegram to Emma. Somehow, he is diverted from going to get police, into rushing out to get a train schedule to get Emma home on the noon train. (inq 118) In the prelim he explains that he had heard Lizzie say that Abby had gone out- he didn't know where Mrs. Borden was and "nobody could account for her, I left and went downstreet on that evidence. I did not have time, I did not think it was necessary for me to look. [for Abby]" (prelim 411)
--Of course, as soon as he checked the train schedule he knew it was no rush- and he still had not checked the house for a lingering murderer. He says he was going to get police, then he says he satisfied himself there was an officer there before he left the house, but he doesn't say that until the very last in the preliminary hearing. (414) Then he says he also intended to notify the M.E. "as soon as I could." But he never did. (414).
In the inquest his behind was saved when the Marshal reminded Knowlton to ask Bowen didn't he remember asking Allen to get the police? (124). At page 120 he says he "notified somebody there [at the house] to get the police..." Q) When you came back?
A) Yes Sir, at the house.

Bowen has a couple of different descriptions as to where he was when he first saw Abby's body, that he didn't move her but she must have been moved (prelim 404), and he didn't think there was much difference in the timing of the 2 deaths. (prelim 406). He admits on the stand at the preliminary hearing (409, 410) that it had taken him all week to straighten out his ideas of his actions in the first 1/2 hour that he was on the scene at the Borden's.

From the other's witness statements there are a few things Bowen doesn't bring up:
pg. 1 Allen says Bowen showed him Andrew's body and told him to go and tell the Marshal.

pg. 2 Fleet was asking about Morse- and we realize Bowen never really mentions Morse. Bowen does not speak the name at the prelim., and this is the only exchange about Morse at the Inquest, 120:
Q. You do not remember of seeing Morse when you got back the second time?
A. No Sir.
Q. Nor when you got down from up stairs?
A. No Sir, not directly. I did not see him for some little time, I dont know when.
Q. Had the crowd begun to collect a great deal when he came?
A. Yes, a good many were there, I cant say who, people that I knew; I knew almost everybody that came in.

pg. 4, Harrington says Bowen told him he was satisfied there was something wrong because they all had been sick the day before [the Bordens]. Harrington claims Bowen said Abby died of fright and that Bowen was surprised when told of the blood (on Abby).

pg. 6, Dr. Bowen burned those "scraps" of paper in the kitchen stove.

pg. 10, Mrs. Dr. Bowen says Dr. Bowen was informed of the problems at the Borden's at 11:25 am.

pg. 19, Dr. Bowen stopped Harrington in the street and "was very anxious" about "another agent of death" being found. Bowen was told by Harrington that he had no recollection of any such statement made by Knowlton. This was apparently around September.

pg. 21, Petty said he went back with Bowen on his "second visit" and told Dr. Bowen that in his opinion Abby must have been dead an hour.

pg. 21, Mrs. Jane Grey said that Dr. Bowen had in the past escorted Lizzie to church. (I believe Bowen was Baptist, yet he took Lizzie to her Congregational Church to her Borden pew, while her family was in Swansea).

pg. 22 Dr. Dedrick called Bowen's attention to Andrew's left hand which was "smeared with blood." He also called Bowen's attention to blood-stained water in the basin in the guest room. Dedrick says Bowen said "perhaps some of the Doctors washed their hands there."

pg. 44. James Leonard, driver for Dr. Bowen says it was 11:05 am when Bowen was notified by his wife that he was wanted at the Borden's house.

It must have been frustrating to be him that day. Petty gives him his considered opinion as to how long Abby has been dead. Dr. Dedrick points out blood here and there. Dolan takes over when he gets to the scene and Bowen is reduced to taking notes for him.
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Post by diana »

I think you have a point, Kat, about Bowen's testimony at trial being so far into the future as to be almost worthless -- but I thought I'd take a look anyway.

As far as his relationship with the Borden family goes -- he is just as difficult to pin down at trial. He says he "seldom" visited the house except on business but that his dealings with them were "about equal" professional and social. (Trial, 297)

He does go back to saying he, himself, saw Lizzie going out on Wednesday evening "between six and seven o'clock" instead of putting this on his wife's say-so.(Trial,297).

As to when he arrived at the house on the 4th -- he will only commit now to sometime "after eleven and before half past eleven". (Trial 298+)

Regarding notifying the police -- Officer Allen, in his trial testimony, says Bowen met him at the door when he arrived at around 11:20 and the doctor showed him Andrew's body, saying he'd sent someone for a sheet to cover it (Trial, 433) so this may explain why Bowen thought he'd dealt with the matter of the police being informed.

(Oddly he says he doesn't know where Sawyer lives. At the inquest he is asked if Sawyer is a neighbor and replies: "No, I don't know where he does live, I have known him sometime." But Sawyer lived 3 houses north of the Bordens at 78 Second Street. You'd think the local doctor would know the people who lived on his own street.)

Bowen was the first medical man on the scene -- but he never gives evidence to the effect that he felt any significant time had elapsed between the death of Abby and Andrew. In fact, at the Preliminary hearing, when asked if he formed any opinion as to how long these people had been dead, he answers "... I supposed they had been dead only a short time" and that he did not form any opinion as to an essential difference in the time they died. He also says that although he has "heard opinions enough" about this he, himself, has "no means ... of judging whether there was any difference in the time of their death, or not, no reliable opinion, no reliable information, no reliable way of possessing any that I know of myself, or that was used that day there." (Prelim. 406)

To me this suggests that the good doctor thought that the medical experts who testified otherwise (and after the fact) were definitely dealing in the realm of speculation.
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Post by Kat »

Thanks! I'm glad you did the trial.
As you know, there's a letter in The Knowlton Papers where Knowlton claims to Pillsbury that Dr. Draper is now on board with time-of-death:

..."Dr. Draper is coming round on our side in great shape. All doubts he may have has as to the time of death are now fully dispersed.
Yours Truly,
H. M. Knowlton
per E."
--HK198, pg. 204, dated May 27, 1893.
That is very close to trial date!

After reviewing all that Bowen testimony, does it seem as if he was hiding something or could have been in some kind of accomplice role? I didn't get that from his contradictions. He seemed more of an unfortunate bumbler- like he was shocked, rather than a trained observer.
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Post by Bob Gutowski »

Maybe Sawyer went to Dr. Kelly? An Irish-Catholic was good enough for him?
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Post by diana »

You're probably right, Bob.

Sawyer is also the person who mentioned buying vinegar from the Bordens. He says in his inquest testimony: "I have been there in the house. I used to go there once in a while to make some little purchases in vinegar and stuff." (Inquest,136)

He would only have had to go two doors farther to get his vinegar from Wade's store -- so I've always wondered if Andrew's was better or cheaper? And when he says 'vinegar and stuff' -- what else did he buy at the house?

Not that I think this has any pertinence to the murders BTW .... I just find any little detail pertaining to the Borden household fascinating.
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Post by Edisto »

I've always wondered if Sawyer's mention of buying vinegar "and stuff" at the Borden place isn't an important clue. I've read that Andew sold eggs from the farm, and it seems likely that he transacted other business from the house. All that makes me wonder if the Borden premises weren't much more "open" than the average household. I think we touched on this a long time ago, and I recalled that my Uncle Jim ran a country general store which was attached to the family home. When we would sit down to "dinner" (lunch), he was often disturbed by customers entering the store and wanting service, which he genially provided before returning to his meal. I'm sure the Borden house wasn't that much of a commercial enterprise, but it might have been much more public than we realize.
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Post by diana »

And, if it was, that could account for all the private quarters being under lock and key.

The implication is that Andrew left that morning by the side door This comes from Mrs. Churchill seeing him at the side door at about nine o'clock and Lizzie saying she didn't fasten the door after him as Maggie had "charge of the back door". (Lizzie:Inquest)


I've always had trouble reconciling Andrew's obsession about locking his bedroom with leaving an exterior door unlocked when he went in to town. But this could help explain that. There was testimony that people came to see Andrew on business to do with his real-estate holdings -- and if they also came around to purchase vinegar and whatever, -- the keys probably filled a need for a public/ private division within the house. Lizzie locked her bedroom door, too.
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Dr. Bowen as Accomplice

Post by sguthmann »

There are so many inexplicable "doings" by Bowen on the day of the murders, that I cannot help but look at him VERY SUSPICIOUSLY!!! Reading the witness statements, I was immediatley struck by a number of highly suspicious items regarding Bowen. Why did he assume Abby was alive and had merely fainted at a time when supposedly no one knew her whereabouts, nor her condition?? When he is informed that Abby is in fact dead, why is his next conclusion that she must've seen Andrew's killer and fainted dead away (no pun intended)? Let's see: you've got the husband downstairs murdered in horrific fashion, and the bloody, motionless body of his wife lying upstairs...why wouldn't he consider that she too had been murdered? OR how about this one: "the note" that Lizzie said Abby had received and prompted her to go out - the one that never could be found? In the witness statements, Harrington noted that Dr. Bowen had scraps of paper in his hand on which there was writing. He dismisses the scraps saying, "it is nothing, it is something about, I think, my daughter going through somewhere.” Then he proceeds to take the lid off the kitchen stove and drop the pieces in! Harrington also noted that in the days following the murders, "Dr. Bowen stopped me on the street, and was very anxious to know what Mr. Knowlton meant when be referred to having found another agent of death. He was very nervous when talking of this. I told him I did not recollect of any such statement in his plea."
Just some more food for thought...
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repeats

Post by sguthmann »

Well it seems in my excitement re: Bowen, I should not have skimmed so quickly over Kat's initial post. I now see she already noted and cited every point I just made. argh. Will have to try and find something she didn't yet catch (if it can be done, that is! *lol*) Well done Kat, very thorough. My apologies for the repeats.
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Kat
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Post by Kat »

That's OK. It really happens all the time. :smile:
Sometimes I want to say "Read 2 posts up- I said that" but I am getting very used to it.
It's good to see you back.
Besides, nothig compares to finding out for yourself.

BTW: Do you have The Knowlton Papers? That Dr. Draper seemed reluctant to go with the accepted time of death for Abby and I didn't check that story out much.
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Post by DWilly »

I am just now starting to look at the Lizzie Borden case. So, I don't know a lot. I do have a question regarding the Dr. Bowen. It's my understanding that after the bodies had been found Dr. Bowen gave morphine to Lizzie. Does anyone know if he continued for a few more days to give her morphine? I ask because I am wondering if it could have contributed to Lizzie's confusing inquest testimony.
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Post by augusta »

If Doctor Bowen answered the question about seeing any hatchets at the Borden house, and he said he had never been in the cellar before, that may not be a mysterious answer. He could have heard about the hatchets in the cellar by then in the papers or from people talking about it.

I never did understand his testimony about he knew the Bordens socially, then says he only went over there on business. It doesn't make sense.

That's right - Bowen and Lizzie went to two different churches. I hadn't pieced that together.

I don't believe Bowen was involved in the murders prior to his arrival at the scene. He was shaken up pretty badly. "Addie, come see ..." But the burning of that paper and his visit to Weybosset Street seem to tell us that he may have been involved after the fact - perhaps to help Lizzie.
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Post by Kat »

DWilly @ Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:43 pm wrote:I am just now starting to look at the Lizzie Borden case. So, I don't know a lot. I do have a question regarding the Dr. Bowen. It's my understanding that after the bodies had been found Dr. Bowen gave morphine to Lizzie. Does anyone know if he continued for a few more days to give her morphine? I ask because I am wondering if it could have contributed to Lizzie's confusing inquest testimony.
Trial
327
Q. I understand you to say on Friday you directed that the bromo caffeine be given?
A. No, sir, Thursday.

Q. Not on Friday. You prescribed a second dose and took over from your office a bottle of it with directions how to be taken. I wish to know if, after that, you had occasion to prescribe for her on account of this mental distress and nervous excitement?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was it?
A. Friday.

Q. The next day?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was the prescription or medicine the same as the other?
A. It was different.

Q. What was it?
A. Sulphate of morphine.

Q. Well, what is commonly called morphine?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. You directed morphine to be taken?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. In what doses?
A. One-eighth of a grain.

Q. When?
A. Friday night, at bed-time.

Q. The next day you changed that?
A. I did not change the medicine, but doubled the dose.

Q. That was on Saturday?
A. On Saturday.

Q. Did you continue the dose on Sunday?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you continue it Monday?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And on Tuesday?
A. Yes, sir.

......
328
Q. I ask you about the morphine that you were giving her and you tell me on Friday you gave one-eighth of a grain, which is the ordinary dose, I understand, mild dose, and on Saturday you doubled it, you gave it, sent it, and she had it on Monday and Tuesday, and how long did she continue to have it?
A. She continued to have that all the time she was in the station house.

Q. After her arrest, was it not?
A. And before.

Q. In other words she had it all the time up to the time of her arrest, the hearing and while in the station house?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. So that if before the arrest, she was one, two, or three days before the private inquest, she was there when she had been given for several days this double dose of morphine?
A. Yes, sir.


Q. I suppose physicians well understand the effect of morphine on the mind and on the recollection, don't they?

Page 329

A. Supposed to, yes, sir.

Q. Is there any question about it?
A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know whether she had ever had occasion before to have morphine prescribed for her, as far as you know?
A. I don't remember that she had.

Q. Does not morphine given in double doses to allay mental distress and nervous excitement somewhat effect the memory and change and alter the view of things and give people hallucinations?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. There is no doubt about it, is there?
A. No, sir.

MR. ADAMS. I have no further question.


RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.


Q. (By Mr. Moody.) How many times did you personally see her take the medication?
A. Not more than twice, I think.

Q. When were those two times?
A. Between one and two in the afternoon, of Thursday.

Q. And that was bromo caffeine?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is bromo caffeine a medicine which has a tendency to create hallucinations a week or so after it has been taken?
A. No, sir.

--Notice Bowen is asked about a "double dose." Some people repeat this to mean double a "normal" dose, but that is not the case, specifically, that we know. Bowen also claims he did not see or personally administer the morphine. If Lizzie was taking this, it could very well affect her inquest answers.
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Post by Kat »

augusta @ Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:08 am wrote: I don't believe Bowen was involved in the murders prior to his arrival at the scene. He was shaken up pretty badly. "Addie, come see ..." But the burning of that paper and his visit to Weybosset Street seem to tell us that he may have been involved after the fact - perhaps to help Lizzie.
I can never figure out where Bowen had the time to visit Weybosset Street. I've always thought that was a mistake, somehow. You've seen where it is- where did he get the time, from stopping at his house to check the train schedule, to sending the telegram, to stopping at the corner store to tell his friend, to getting back to Second Street?
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Post by john »

Good work Kat!
My thoughts about Bowen run along the line of Lizzie's junkie and that's why he's afraid to answer certain questions. That of course doesn't explain why he would determine the two deaths to have occurred at about the same time. I think, and I previously posted, that to say that he can only be trying to help Lizzie.
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Post by Edisto »

I'm looking for the source that says Dr. Bowen was at the Emery house on August 4. (I know I've read it somewhere.) So far, I've checked the witness statements, but Mrs. Emery reported only that John V. Morse was there about the time he said he was. She said nothing about Dr. Bowen's visit that day.
It was my understanding that Dr. Bowen was reported to be there about the same time as J. V. Morse, but maybe not at exactly the same time. That would mean he was on Weybosset Street before his return home from morning calls and before he heard about the Borden murders. I've checked Hoffman's book too, and he says nothing about Bowen being at the Emery house that day. According to Hoffman, Bowen had been making calls in Tiverton, RI, on the morning of August 4. I'll check Bowen's actual testimony, because there are quite a few errors in the Hoffman book, as most of us know. (I'm finding more and more that very few, if any, of the Borden books are error-free.)
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Post by Kat »

I was thinking along the same lines, Edisto, but I think Mrs. Emery claimed that Bowen was coming as Morse was leaving, and so that shot my idea that it was before the murders.
You can try The Evening Standard, or Porter for that matter.
Do you have The Standard?
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Post by augusta »

Edisto, I think it is in the Sourcebook that I read it.
Here it is, from page 9 of the Sourcebook, from the Fall River Herald:
(it's undated, but it is probably the August 5th issue)

MORSE'S NIECE

Mrs. Emery, upon whom Mr. Morse called, was disposed to talk freely to Officer Medley, who interviewed her Thursday night. She said in reply to questions that she had several callers during the day, and that one of them was John Morse.

"Was Morse the name we heard?" asked the officer of a companion.

"Yes," retorted Mrs. Emery quickly. "Morse was the man. He left here at 11:30 o'clock this morning."

"Then you noticed the time?" observed the officer.

"Oh, yes," was the reply, "I noticed the time."

"How did you fix it?" was the next question.

After some little hesitation, Mrs. Emery said that one of her family was sick, and that Dr. Bowen was her physician. "Dr. Bowen came in just as Mr. Morse left."

"Did they meet?" queried the officers.

"No, they did not," said Mrs. Emery.

At this point the niece in question entered the room and corroborated Mrs. Emery's statements, though both women finally fixed upon 11:20 as the exact time of Mr. Morse's departure.

Mrs. Emery volunteered information that Mr. Morse was well to do, at least she supposed he was comfortably off and that he had come east to spend his money. She was positive on this point, however. Morse's niece was asked if she had ever seen her uncle before, and replied that she had. She had met him when she was five years old, and three weeks ago he had taken her from the cars at Warren to the Borden farm, Swansea.

*****
Morse supposedly got a telephone call, figured to be when the murders were discovered. He left the Weybosset house right after the call. I used to think maybe Bowen had called him, but if he showed up at the house maybe not. It sure would be interesting to know who called Morse that morning...

The woman in the Weybosset Street house was quoted pretty firmly as saying Bowen was there. The niece agreed with Mrs. Emery's statements.
If they had to agree on a time, tho, that means we can't be sure what time that really was. But how the heck did he go over there at that time?

Could he have gone over there before he returned home and learned of Andrew's murder? I always wondered how he could have raced over there to examine a child in between sending telegrams. But maybe he was there before Andrew was killed. He wasn't home when Bridget went over there. I've read he was in Tiverton, RI. But maybe he was both there and the Weybosset Street house before he came home.

I hadn't looked at it that way before. But I don't think Bowen admitted he was there that morning. I don't recall if he was asked on the stand if he was over there that morning.

I don't recall if Morse was asked about getting a phone call at that house that morning, either ...
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Post by Kat »

Thanksfor the transcription!
Here's the Evening Standard version:

"John W. Morse's Stories"

He said that about 20 minutes after 9 o'clock in the morning he left Mr. Borden's house and walked to the City Hall, where he took a car for Weybosset street. He arrived at No. 4 Weybosset street at 9:30 and called on a niece and nephew, who were visiting a family there named Emery. "The first I knew of this affair," said Mr. Morse yesterday noon just after 12 o'clock, "I received a telephone message and went down town. I arrived at Mr. Borden's house at 11:40 and walked in at the gate. I picked up a couple of pears, and glancing in at the door, saw the uniforms of policemen. Bridget met me and said 'Do you know what has happened? The folks are killed.' I went in and saw Mr. Borden's body lying on the lounge; then I went up stairs and saw Mrs. Borden's corpse."

Morse is a tall man, who looks like a farmer. He has a closely cropped beard and moustache, and his eyes are bloodshot, or have prominent veins in them. He has been on intimate terms with Mr. Borden's daughters of late, and has been driving with them frequently.

Mrs. Emery Talks

Mrs. Emery, upon whom Mr. Morse called, was disposed to talk freely to Officer Medley, who interviewed her last evening. She said in reply to questions that she had several callers during the day, and that one of them was John Morse.
“Was Morse the name we heard?” asked the officer of a companion.
“Yes,” retorted Mrs. Emery, quickly, “Morse was the man. He left here at 11:30 o’clock this morning.”
“Then you noticed the time?” observed the officer.
“Oh, yes,” was the reply. “I noticed the time.”
“How did you fix it?” was the next question.
After some little hesitation, Mrs. Emery said that one of her family was sick, and that Dr. Bowen was her physician. “Dr. Bowen came in just as Mr. Morse left.”
“Did they meet?” queried the officer.
“No, they did not,” said Mrs. Emery.

At this point, the niece in question entered the room and corroborated Mrs. Emery’s statements, though both women finally fixed upon 11:20 as the exact time of Mr. Morse’s departure.

Mr. Morse states that he was in the Borden yard at 11:40, and it is a quick trip from Weybosset street to Second street in 10 minutes. He needed the extra 10 minutes which the women gave him. It is necessary to be accurate.

Mrs. Emery volunteered information that Mr. Morse was well-to-do, at least she supposed he was comfortably off and that he had come East to spend his money. She was not positive on this point, however. Morse’s niece was asked if she had ever seen her uncle before, and replied that she had. She had met him when she was five years old, and three weeks ago he had taken her from the cars at Warren to the Borden farm, Swanzey.

Mr. Morse’s memory in regard to his niece is somewhat defective. He had said that he went to call on her for the first time yesterday. He was interviewed again.
“I thought that you told me, Mr. Morse,” said the interviewer, “that you never saw your niece before to-day?”
“I never did,” replied Mr. Morse.
“She says,” was the rejoinder, “that you met her in Warren and drove her to Swanzey.”
“Ah, that is so. I did,” said Mr. Morse. “I saw her for just a moment or so.”
“And I thought you told me,” resumed the interviewer, “that you first learned of this affair by a telephone message when you were in another part of the city?”
“You are mistaken,” said Mr. Morse, “I said no such thing.”
“But you did,” persisted his questioner, “and I will take my oath on it.”
“You are mistaken,” Morse replied once more.
(page 7)

--Friday, August 5, 1892 [Page 2 headline]
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Post by Kat »

Didn't we read that Bowen eventually lost his practice due to his ongoing support of Lizzie's innocence?
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Post by Edisto »

I like to use the Witness Statements where I can, because they were closest in time to the crime, and the witnesses' memories should have been clearest. Admittedly, they probably aren't sworn statements. In his witness statement, Morse says he left for the Emery home at 8:50, departed Weybosset about 11:30, and arrived back at the Borden house about 11:50. He claims he knew nothing of the murders before he arrived back at 92 Second Street. However, the policeman who took his statement (not clear who that was) says Morse told Edwin Porter that he had learned of the murders when he was "called for." (Presumably this was a telephone call?) Morse's story was verified by Mrs. Emery, although she had him leaving about ten minutes earlier (11:20). She didn't mention a visit from Dr. Bowen that morning, and it was her impression that Morse was leaving to go to New Bedford, so that certainly rules out his having gotten a telephone call saying the Bordens had been murdered. If Porter had information that Morse had learned of the murders via a telephone call, he apparently didn't include it in his book - - or at least I wasn't able to find any reference to it. It seems to me that the story about Dr. Bowen's being at the Emery house on the morning of August 4 and the story about Morse's having received word of the murders by telephone are at least questionable and very possibly misunderstandings of some sort. In other words, I agree with Kat.

After posting the above, I did some further reading in the Witness Statements and discovered that John Morse actually made two statements soon after the crime. One of them was clearly given to John Fleet, but it isn't clear who took the second. Morse told Fleet that he left the Borden house about 8:40, went to the post office first, and then visited the Emery home, arriving there about 9:30. This statement is more detailed than the one I originally quoted, but the times are similar.

I was responding to a post about telephone service in Fall River, which seemed to be pretty much confined to commercial establishments. If John Morse received a telephone call at the Emery house, it was an unusual occurrence, because most private homes didn't seem to have telephone service.

The two newspaper stories cited seem to have similar, if not identical, wording and likely came from the same original source. All of us are probably aware that there are many mistakes in the newspaper accounts, so that holds these stories up to question. We probably shouldn't trouble our pretty little heads too much about them.
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Post by Kat »

Thanks for bringing up The Witness Statements. That's a good point, and what is there fits in well here.
I was led to think that Porter was the reporter who wrote that item. That's why I wondered if it was in Porter's book.


I think this is Medley, W.S., 29:
...". He [Morse] told Reporter Porter of the Daily Globe that the first he knew of it was when he was telephoned for.

To prove the truth or falsity of the above statement, I went to the home of Mr. Emery at No. 4 Weybosst street. Mrs. Emery said Mr. Morse did come there at about 9.40, and left there at 11.20, or thereabouts; that he did meet his nephew and niece. She also said Mr. Morse had not been to their house before in several years. She asked him to remain to dinner, but he declined saying something about going to New Bedford, to which place they understood be was going after leaving the house. He left by the front door, but she does not know whether or not he took a street car."
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Post by nbcatlover »

In terms of Dr. Bowen walking Lizzie to church and some talk about it, this may not have been about the nature of the relationship between Bowen and Lizzie but about the decline of Second Street and a woman's safety.

Researching another topic I came across the following in The Evening Standard for 7/19/1892:

"Thomas Ready, who keeps a public resort on Second Street, near Borden, was in the District Court yesterday charged with keeping a common nuisance, minus the drink, and next week the patrolment will tell what they know about the place."
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Post by Kat »

That's interesting. Thanks.

Here is the witness statement, in context:
21

"Mrs. Jane Grey, No. 215 Second street. 'Dr. Bowen’s character is al least suspicious. Four years ago, while the Borden family were summering over the river on the farm, Lizzie remained at home. One Sunday evening during this time, she and Dr. Bowen came to church together, and sat in the Borden seat. I myself saw them this evening. At the time, and since, there was much comment on this act. Some remarked how courageous she was to remain in the house alone; but others replied in a knowing way, perhaps she has very acceptable company.

About the robbery, I think Mrs. Fish, or her daughter in law of Hartford knows more or less about it, if they wish to tell.' "

--What is a "public resort, minus the drink?"
Could this place provide prowlers to the neighborhood like Lizzie says she saw?
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Post by Susan »

Kat, I found this:

“Place of Amusement or Public Resort” - In relation to any premises, a place which is open to members of the public (whether or not a charge or fee for entry is required by the management of the premises and whether or not the management reserves the right to exclude individual members of the public therefrom) for the purposes of amusement, recreation, entertainment or the sale or purchase of goods or food stuffs: The term includes a bazaar, flea market or fair ground, premises at which auctions of any kind are conducted, and premises upon which any display or exhibition is conducted.


So, it may have been some sort of club or meeting house, but, it didn't serve alcohol.
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Post by augusta »

Thanks for the post, Susan. You're incredible. It seems like every time one of us is stumped on a Victorian term, you come to the rescue.

Edisto makes a good point about not falling for every word a newspaper publishes. That does sound like a reasonable answer to Morse's "phone call" and Dr. Bowen's "visit" to the Emery house.

I must have missed the posting about telephones in FR. That sounds real interesting.

Morse's "phone call" sounds suspicious because the reporter insists he said it. It's like when Morse commented that the cellar door was open, then when confronted with it he denied that.

The Bowen visit to the Emery place sounds real because why would Mrs. Emery make that up - and have Morse's niece confirm it? They didn't have any reason to lie that I know of.

Strange story about Morse saying he never saw his niece before that visit, then having to be reminded that he drove her to the Swansea farm. Maybe he was hard of hearing. Or was somewhat mentally ill. (I always thought his sister, Sarah, was.)
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Post by Audrey »

You are right Sherry! Susan's search skills are legendary on the forum.

If I ever had research to do I would hire her, the only thing is I am afraid I couldn't afford her!

(she's that good!)
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Post by Susan »

:lol: You ladies make me blush, thank you. :oops: I guess its the curse of being born under the sign of the cat and always being curious, I want to know these things too! Plus I think I like a good challenge now and then. Our Diana is wonderful research sleuth herself, shes quick on the draw. :grin:
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Post by Kat »

Here's the Evening Standard version:

"John W. Morse's Stories"

He said that about 20 minutes after 9 o'clock in the morning he left Mr. Borden's house and walked to the City Hall, where he took a car for Weybosset street,"
--Kat

John Morse's testimony@
Inquest:
101
Q. Did he [Andrew] tell you where they lived?
A. Yes Sir, 4 Weybosset street.
Q. Did you tell him you were going?
A. Yes Sir. As I went out the door, he says “John, come back to dinner with us”. That is that last he spoke to me. I said I would. I
102
came to the Post Office and got a car.

..........

Prelim
Page 243

Q. Now, when you went away, where did you go to?
A. I came down to the Post Office.

Q. Perhaps you better tell what you did after that. I do not care for it particularly, I only ask it in justice to Mr. Morse.
A. I came down to the Post Office and wrote a card, and went from there out to the north door, and went up Third street; from there to Pleasant street, up Pleasant street to Weybosset street, No. 4 to Daniel Emery’s.

Q. That is way up to the eastward?
A. Perhaps a good mile up there.

Q. You have some friends up there that you went to visit?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Who are they?
A. A neice and a nephew from the West; my brother’s children.

Q. What time did you start to come away from there?
A. I think about 20 minutes past eleven.

Q. How do you fix the time as about quarter to nine when you left the house?
A. Because I thought I would give them time to get their work done up in the morning. I could not go in the afternoon.

Q. How do you fix the time you left as quarter to nine?
A. I looked at my watch
.

Q. When you left?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Then you fix it by having looked at it?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Then it was quarter to nine?
A. Within a few minutes of it, I know it was somewhere there.
.......

Trial
Q. Where did you first go?
A. The Post Office.

Q. And from there where did you go?
A. Went to Weybosset Street.

Q. To visit some one?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Whom did you visit there?
A. A nephew and niece. I went to see them, there was only one of them there.

Page 138 / i159

Q. Where is Weybosset Street with respect to the Borden house?
A. It is just off Pleasant Street, and probably a mile or such a matter from Pleasant Street east.

Q. And that does not give us the distance from the Borden house. Will you give us the distance from the Borden house or about the distance?
A. Well, probably a mile and a quarter.

Q. Did you walk there or drive there?
A. I walked there
.
....
(149)
Q. You don't think there were. You came back----passing over all the intermediate time from the breakfast, or after the time you went out, having your breakfast and finishing about half past seven, I think you say you left about fifteen to twenty minutes before nine?
A. Yes, sir.


--The point is that the newspaper did not seem to get the other facts straight, tho Morse seems to say he "got a car" on his way to Weybosset. It might be a misprint, and possibly should say he got a card. (postal card).
It's hard to figure this part out tho, because the news item that he took a car came before his inquest where he seems to say he took a car, thereafter changing it to *he walked.*
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Post by nbcatlover »

In 'Lizzie Borden" A Case Book of Family and Crime in the 1890s' (Williams, Smithburn & Peterdon, ed.), it is listed in a section called "Fall River Daily Herald Reports of the Crime" for August 5, 1892 under the heading "MORSE'S NIECE". It is Mrs. Emery (and not the niece, Annie Morse) who makes the report (pp. 34-35-see below)

MORSE'S NIECE

Mrs. Emery, upon whom Mr. Morse called, was disposed to talk freely to Officer Medley, who interviewed her Thursday night. She said in reply to question that she had several callers during the day, and that one of them was John Morse.

"Was Morse the name we heard?" asked the officer of a companion.

"Yes," retorted Mrs. Emery quickly, "Morse was the man. He left here at 11:30 o'clock this morning."

"Then you noticed the time?" observed the officer.

"Oh, yes," was the reply, "I noticed the time."

"How did you fix it?" was the next question.

After some little hesitation, Mrs. Emery said that one of her family was sick, and that Dr. Bowen was her physician, "Dr. Bowen came in just as Mr. Morse left."

"Did they meet?" queried the officers.

"No, they did not," said Mrs. Emery.

At this point the niece in question entered the room and corroborated Mrs. Emery's statements, though both women finally fixed upon 11:20 as the exact time of Mr. Morse's departure.

Mrs. Emery volunteered information that Mr. Morse was well-to-do, at least she supposed he was comfortably off and that he had come east to spend his money. She was not positive on this point, however. Morse's niece was asked if she had ever seen her uncle before, and replied that she had. She had met him when she was five years old, and three weeks ago he had taken her from the cars at Warren to the Borden farm, Swansey.
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Post by Kat »

Thanks.
Augusta, on August 16th, page 1 here on this topic, has this same transcription from the Sourcebook, page 9, citing the Herald.
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Post by Kat »

From Porter, page 20 :

"Mr. Morse had told the newspaper reporters of his visit in the morning to the house of a relative, Mrs. Emery at No. 4 Weybosset street. Thither went the policeman accompanied by the writer to investigate. The Emery’s [sic] were found at home and Mrs. Emery said that Mr. Morse had visited her house that morning, arriving there before 10 o’clock and remaining until 11.20. A niece of Mr. Morse was present and she also declared that her uncle had left the house at the time stated. The testimony of these two witnesses would set at rest forever the theory that John V. Morse was within a mile of the Borden house when the old people were done to death. But these facts were not then generally known and there were many persons who believed that he knew more concerning the killing than he cared to relate."--1893
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Post by nbcatlover »

Has anyone done a further search on Dr. Bowen's family, to your knowledge.

Is it possible he is a relative of Lizzie's? Her great grandfather Richard was married to Martha Patty Bowen (her great grandmother). Andrew's father is routinely referred to as Abraham Bowen Borden.

I believe that a section of old Fall River was called Bowenville though I don't know what area of the city it was.

Even though Dr. Bowen was born in Attleborough, his family may have had ties to Fall River.
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Post by Kat »

I have looked for Bowen in Southeastern Massachusetts, but the family Bowen which is dominate in Fall River is not our Dr.'s family. I can only find him under Miller, believe it or not, as married to Southard's daughter.
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Post by Angel »

Kat @ Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:29 am wrote:Dr. Bowen says he was well-acquainted with the Bordens, but when pinned down as "intimately so?" he replies "Well, yes, neighbors." He doesn't know if Andrew would self-medicate though he says he is the family physician. (inq. 115). In the prelim (405) he says he seldom visits the Borden house, except for business, financial or professional.
Yet, when asked about the family relations in the Borden household and Lizzie's relationship with Abby he claims their relations were "harmonious and perfect and natural." (inq, 122)

He says he saw Andrew outside Wednesday, "two or three hours afterwards" [after seeing to Andrew's illness]. Then Bowen says he saw Lizzie walking up the street and concluded they were alright, "all of them." [Wednesday]. (inq, 116) In the prelim (408) Bowen says he did not see Lizzie Wednesday, rather it was his wife had said Lizzie was "going up the street, or going down street towards night..." He said his wife "accounted for Mr. Borden being out [Wednesday] and Lizzie being out..." Prelim (407) Bowen says he saw Andrew Wednesday morning but it was his wife who told him she saw Andrew "out on the sidewalk." Then he doesn't remember if he himself saw Andrew outside.

When he arrived at the Borden house Wednesday morning, he thought he saw Lizzie hurrying upstairs when he was let in the door.
inquest
Bowen
116
Q. Did you see Lizzie that morning?
A. She was just going up stairs as I went in the front door; I thought it was her, I am not quite sure.
Q. It was somebody you thought was Lizzie?
A. Yes Sir, somebody I supposed was Lizzie, I did not see her face.
Q. And did not talk to her?
A. No Sir.

--At the preliminary he really puts a qualifier on this sighting:
(408)
Q. Did you see Lizzie then?
A. I did not. I saw someone going up stairs, I do not know whether it was Bridget or Lizzie or Mrs. Borden, I did not see the face, I saw the form.

Q. Did you see Lizzie at all that day?
A. I think not.
...........

He's been hard to pin down as to the time he got word and the time he showed up at the Bordens. He admits he thought it was later than it was, that his driver had him believing (later) that he had arrived much earlier than his own first impression. It seems his first impression was probably more correct than his driver's but it adds more confusion.
At inquest (124) Bowen thinks he arrived at 11:10 am. (after changing his mind). He says his first impression was that it was 20 to 25 minutes past 11. He says he was back at the house at 11:30 am after telegraphing. (inq 125). In the preliminary (400) he says it was between 10 and 20 minutes past 11 am when he got the news. He does describe that at 11 am he was on South Main St. and met a fire department team near the head of Union (St.). (inq 125)
--This info might help somene trying to figure from which direction he was coming. In the prelim (400) he said he drove to his house from the south.

Bowen at inquest (121) had the "impression now that she [Lizzie] was at the side door, and opened the screen door, and the door was half opened, and was ready for me; that is my impression." At prelim (408) he doesn't know where Lizzie was when he came. She could have been at the "edge of kitchen or in the hall, or at the door." (Which covers all the places Lizzie could have been).

An odd thing is when he was asked about knowing if Andrew had any hatchets or axes he states he had never gone into the cellar in his life. He was the first to bring up the cellar- he was not asked about the cellar. (inq 122)

Another odd thing was when he said he was going to go for the police, is when Lizzie asked him to send the telegram to Emma. Somehow, he is diverted from going to get police, into rushing out to get a train schedule to get Emma home on the noon train. (inq 118) In the prelim he explains that he had heard Lizzie say that Abby had gone out- he didn't know where Mrs. Borden was and "nobody could account for her, I left and went downstreet on that evidence. I did not have time, I did not think it was necessary for me to look. [for Abby]" (prelim 411)
--Of course, as soon as he checked the train schedule he knew it was no rush- and he still had not checked the house for a lingering murderer. He says he was going to get police, then he says he satisfied himself there was an officer there before he left the house, but he doesn't say that until the very last in the preliminary hearing. (414) Then he says he also intended to notify the M.E. "as soon as I could." But he never did. (414).
In the inquest his behind was saved when the Marshal reminded Knowlton to ask Bowen didn't he remember asking Allen to get the police? (124). At page 120 he says he "notified somebody there [at the house] to get the police..." Q) When you came back?
A) Yes Sir, at the house.

Bowen has a couple of different descriptions as to where he was when he first saw Abby's body, that he didn't move her but she must have been moved (prelim 404), and he didn't think there was much difference in the timing of the 2 deaths. (prelim 406). He admits on the stand at the preliminary hearing (409, 410) that it had taken him all week to straighten out his ideas of his actions in the first 1/2 hour that he was on the scene at the Borden's.

From the other's witness statements there are a few things Bowen doesn't bring up:
pg. 1 Allen says Bowen showed him Andrew's body and told him to go and tell the Marshal.

pg. 2 Fleet was asking about Morse- and we realize Bowen never really mentions Morse. Bowen does not speak the name at the prelim., and this is the only exchange about Morse at the Inquest, 120:
Q. You do not remember of seeing Morse when you got back the second time?
A. No Sir.
Q. Nor when you got down from up stairs?
A. No Sir, not directly. I did not see him for some little time, I dont know when.
Q. Had the crowd begun to collect a great deal when he came?
A. Yes, a good many were there, I cant say who, people that I knew; I knew almost everybody that came in.

pg. 4, Harrington says Bowen told him he was satisfied there was something wrong because they all had been sick the day before [the Bordens]. Harrington claims Bowen said Abby died of fright and that Bowen was surprised when told of the blood (on Abby).

pg. 6, Dr. Bowen burned those "scraps" of paper in the kitchen stove.

pg. 10, Mrs. Dr. Bowen says Dr. Bowen was informed of the problems at the Borden's at 11:25 am.

pg. 19, Dr. Bowen stopped Harrington in the street and "was very anxious" about "another agent of death" being found. Bowen was told by Harrington that he had no recollection of any such statement made by Knowlton. This was apparently around September.

pg. 21, Petty said he went back with Bowen on his "second visit" and told Dr. Bowen that in his opinion Abby must have been dead an hour.

pg. 21, Mrs. Jane Grey said that Dr. Bowen had in the past escorted Lizzie to church. (I believe Bowen was Baptist, yet he took Lizzie to her Congregational Church to her Borden pew, while her family was in Swansea).

pg. 22 Dr. Dedrick called Bowen's attention to Andrew's left hand which was "smeared with blood." He also called Bowen's attention to blood-stained water in the basin in the guest room. Dedrick says Bowen said "perhaps some of the Doctors washed their hands there."

pg. 44. James Leonard, driver for Dr. Bowen says it was 11:05 am when Bowen was notified by his wife that he was wanted at the Borden's house.

It must have been frustrating to be him that day. Petty gives him his considered opinion as to how long Abby has been dead. Dr. Dedrick points out blood here and there. Dolan takes over when he gets to the scene and Bowen is reduced to taking notes for him.
I went back into the archives and read all I could find on Dr. Bowen. Could it be that Lizzie may have had something going on with him (requited or unrequited) and all hell broke loose in the family because of the possible scandal? He had escorted her to church and that had already caused some talk. The fact that Andrew was a jerk to him after Bowen showed up at his doorstep to inquire after his health seems an overreaction to a simple visit. Maybe Andrew was steaming because of his outrage with Bowen over his relationship with Lizzie. Maybe there was more to the visit than just a doctor's call. If Abby ran over to him the day before because she feared someone was poisoning them, then maybe Bowen was worrying that a "fatal attraction" might be occurring with Lizzie. Maybe the man at the door the day of the murders was Bowen trying to talk with Andrew. Maybe Lizzie did the deed and somehow Bowen knew something about it and that's why he went tearing down the street in the wagon in a frenzy to get away from the scene because he was so freaked out and didn't know what to do. Maybe he went to tell Morse at the relative's house and that's why Morse acted so suspiciously in going home (getting the number of the conductor's badge, etc. for an alibi for himself, taking his time to go into the Borden house because he wasn't sure how he was going to cover what he knew. Maybe Bowen was acting weird at the Borden house when Bridget called him over because he knew he was indirectly the cause of everything and he was out of his mind distracted with what could happen to his life. Maybe he he intentionally overdosed Lizzie with morphine the next few weeks to keep her really out of it so he could have time to think.
Who knows? Just some thoughts.
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Post by Kat »

We would need to know what Mrs. Dr. Bowen had to say about her husband's hours he kept on Thursday, and also his driver's comments as to where they were and when.

It's funny this came back up because tonight I was reading a news report that came out a week after the trial, and it stated that the driver ("Leonard*) had witnessed 2 men outside the Borden house on Tuesday forenoon. It said one went in and the other turned the buggy around and waited. The other came out shaking a fist at the house. It said the defense held back this *witness* in case he was needed but that by the time the prosecution rested, the defense pretty well knew they needn't bring in their surprise witness.

Supposedly the driver told this to Dr. Bowen, casually, and it states that Dr. Bowen thought not much about it but seemed to recall it after the murders.

Phillips should probably be checked as well, and Jennings' notes in Proceedings.
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Post by snokkums »

diana @ Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:11 pm wrote:I think you have a point, Kat, about Bowen's testimony at trial being so far into the future as to be almost worthless -- but I thought I'd take a look anyway.

As far as his relationship with the Borden family goes -- he is just as difficult to pin down at trial. He says he "seldom" visited the house except on business but that his dealings with them were "about equal" professional and social. (Trial, 297)

He does go back to saying he, himself, saw Lizzie going out on Wednesday evening "between six and seven o'clock" instead of putting this on his wife's say-so.(Trial,297).

As to when he arrived at the house on the 4th -- he will only commit now to sometime "after eleven and before half past eleven". (Trial 298+)

Regarding notifying the police -- Officer Allen, in his trial testimony, says Bowen met him at the door when he arrived at around 11:20 and the doctor showed him Andrew's body, saying he'd sent someone for a sheet to cover it (Trial, 433) so this may explain why Bowen thought he'd dealt with the matter of the police being informed.

(Oddly he says he doesn't know where Sawyer lives. At the inquest he is asked if Sawyer is a neighbor and replies: "No, I don't know where he does live, I have known him sometime." But Sawyer lived 3 houses north of the Bordens at 78 Second Street. You'd think the local doctor would know the people who lived on his own street.)

Bowen was the first medical man on the scene -- but he never gives evidence to the effect that he felt any significant time had elapsed between the death of Abby and Andrew. In fact, at the Preliminary hearing, when asked if he formed any opinion as to how long these people had been dead, he answers "... I supposed they had been dead only a short time" and that he did not form any opinion as to an essential difference in the time they died. He also says that although he has "heard opinions enough" about this he, himself, has "no means ... of judging whether there was any difference in the time of their death, or not, no reliable opinion, no reliable information, no reliable way of possessing any that I know of myself, or that was used that day there." (Prelim. 406)

To me this suggests that the good doctor thought that the medical experts who testified otherwise (and after the fact) were definitely dealing in the realm of speculation.
I think he didn't have a very good relationship with Andrew. Wasn't he the doctor Abby wanted to go to when she though she had been posioned, and Andy said he wasn't going to pay for the visit?

As for the relationship with lizzie and Emma, I think he was a bit older and married. They might only saw each other at church.
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Post by RayS »

Kat @ Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:37 am wrote:We would need to know what Mrs. Dr. Bowen had to say about her husband's hours he kept on Thursday, and also his driver's comments as to where they were and when.

It's funny this came back up because tonight I was reading a news report that came out a week after the trial, and it stated that the driver ("Leonard*) had witnessed 2 men outside the Borden house on Tuesday forenoon. It said one went in and the other turned the buggy around and waited. The other came out shaking a fist at the house. It said the defense held back this *witness* in case he was needed but that by the time the prosecution rested, the defense pretty well knew they needn't bring in their surprise witness.

Supposedly the driver told this to Dr. Bowen, casually, and it states that Dr. Bowen thought not much about it but seemed to recall it after the murders.

Phillips should probably be checked as well, and Jennings' notes in Proceedings.
Another happy client of Andrew Borden? Would the list of suspects have included him?
It does show that Andy did business at home. It wasn't a door-to-door salesman. Arriving in a buggy w/ driver shows some wealth, unlike the common folk.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by irina »

Bowen and Morse~Enough confusion to go around.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by Curryong »

As I've previously stated, I believe Bowen was in a 'bit of a state' after viewing the bodies of his patients and neighbours.
Funny how the witness, (supposedly called 'Leonard') doesn't turn up among the people interviewed by the police (witness statements) considering the buggy, two men and especially the fist-shaking business, would be considered vital testimony.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by irina »

It's not just what Bowen says, it's also where was he? DID he arrive at the Emerys just as Morse was leaving, etc. Lots of coincidences and things that seem extremely strange.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by Curryong »

It is indeed very intriguing. I'd forgotten about the Emerys being patients of Bowen, and about Mrs E. not knowing her uncle very well. (She was the one who accompanied Uncle John and Emma to Swansea some weeks before.)


'Uncle John's Behaviours (9) thread and others when you use the Forum's Search facility for 'Bowen and Mrs Emery' are interesting, if not confusing!. Going to come back to that later!
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by debbiediablo »

Bowen has always seemed evasive to me...now he and Morse both show up at the same place with the SAME ALIBI on the morning of the murders. Anything is possible, including coincidence. However, if I were the police I'd have looked very carefully at the people Morse and Bowen encountered at the Emery house.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by irina »

It sounds to me like the Emerys scramble to get their story together and back each other up. The Dr. Bowen thing sounds cobbled on the tail end. Morse got a phone call. He didn't get a phone call. He probably couldn't get a phone call because few people had phones in the home. OK. But it sure sounds like he knew what happened before he went back to Second St. to stroll around, eat some pears and ignore the crowds. Looking at the time frame Bowen would have to have known earlier than 11:05 to warn Morse. On the other hand, was he at the Emerys at all?

Morse was chummy with his nieces. Do you suppose he was inappropriate with his nieces? Could Lizzie have made a snide comment to Abby about the nasty old man and could Abby have told Lizzie it was Lizzie's fault if she got inappropriate attention? Or told Lizzie to clean up her dirty mind? Or slapped Lizzie and told her to clean up her mind? This sort of thing still happens in families where there is molestation. Now THIS could make some sense. It could also explain why, even though the community ostracized Lizzie after the trial, there seems to be a feeling that she wasn't just a greedy, murderous, ingrate.

I'm real hesitant to discuss historic things like this because the people involved can't defend themselves. Sexual things are so overdone. But Lizzie's testimony is she never greeted Uncle John, never saw him, etc. She doesn't have a good reason for any of this and so it adds to the idea that the family avoided each other and they were strange.

Morse had stayed with the family when Lizzie was younger. Did he do something to a young Lizzie (and Emma) and did Abby refuse to believe her or worse yet, blame her for getting molested? Molestation is about blame and guilt and power. I don't have a degree in psychology but my best friend worked in the court system. She has told me all about the CHOMOs whose defense is, the child or baby wanted and asked for intercourse with a grown man! If Morse was the funny uncle, likely the whole family knew about it and that's why Lizzie wasn't run out of town after the trial. Nobody would have come forward to defend her because this sort of thing must always be hidden. She was tolerated because everybody thought she didn't do it for greed. I still don't think she did the actual murders but this idea could explain a lot.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by Curryong »

Morse wasn't particularly chummy with Lizzie. She never wrote to him or he to her. Emma wrote to him every few months or so and she did accompany him, with Mrs Emery, to Swansea on John's previous visit. Even so, you could hardly call John Morse and his nieces particularly close. Lizzie seems to have avoided him, especially on the Wednesday night. Too uncouth!

Why would Lizzie comment to Abby about John being a dirty old man? In my view she didn't confide anything to Abby, much more likely to have been Emma she went to if anything happened. Emma however, didn't avoid his company, as seen by her trip with him to Swansea. You and I disagree on how we see Abby, I think! Smile. I don't think of her as a robust person at all, and I certainly don't see her slapping Lizzie!

The Emerys may have been hesitant about talking to the police. Mrs Emery seems, in most of her statements, to be concentrating on getting times right, but that need not necessarily be sinister. Remember too, that John Morse went to seek out his nephew, Mrs Emery's brother, first, but he was not home. So John went on to his niece's.

It was chance therefore that he was at her house in late morning. It's not really that much of a coincidence that Bowen visited the Emerys. Dr Bowen had a busy practice, and it would not be unusual for him to have patients in all parts of town. Daniel Emery was a mill worker and most unlikely to possess a telephone.

Bowen was seen by the man who phoned the news through to the reporters after he heard Mrs Churchill's remarks at Hall's livery stables (can't remember his name.) He gave a witness statement saying that Bowen's carriage was thundering along Second St at a fast pace. Probably wanting to get home to his lunch.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by debbiediablo »

Do I correctly understand this chain of events?

• Andrew's body is found by Lizzie

• Lizzie sends Bridget out into the street to get Dr. Bowen, willingly staying behind in the house where a hatchet murderer may still be hiding.

• Bowen shows up, and Lizzie sends him off to telegraph Emma, as Lizzie once again willingly stays behind in the house where a hatchet murderer may still be hiding...and Bowen allows her to do so.

• How many houses are in Fall River at that time? Shortly thereafter Morse shows up having been in the same house as Bowen, eats a few pears and says he got a telephone call??? Or am I incorrect on this?

• Somewhere I read that townspeople were somewhat scandalized that both sisters engaged in unchaperoned buggy riding with Morse and that Lizzie also did so with Dr. Bowen. Is this fact or factoid?

I'm pretty much convinced that Lizzie had a accomplice...now the question (for me, at least) is who helped?
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by PossumPie »

Curryong wrote:Morse wasn't particularly chummy with Lizzie. She never wrote to him or he to her. Emma wrote to him every few months or so and she did accompany him, with Mrs Emery, to Swansea on John's previous visit. Even so, you could hardly call John Morse and his nieces particularly close. Lizzie seems to have avoided him, especially on the Wednesday night. Too uncouth!

Why would Lizzie comment to Abby about John being a dirty old man? In my view she didn't confide anything to Abby, much more likely to have been Emma she went to if anything happened. Emma however, didn't avoid his company, as seen by her trip with him to Swansea. You and I disagree on how we see Abby, I think! Smile. I don't think of her as a robust person at all, and I certainly don't see her slapping Lizzie!

I agree. Sexual accusations occur that can ruin innocent reputations. Without proof, I hesitate to speculate. We have no historical evidence that Morse cared much about either niece, appropriate or otherwise. He seems to come to visit Andrew, and a lesser extent, Abby. This was a different time. Women quietly performed their 'wifely duties' and didn't complain. Unfortunately incest occurred and was NEVER discussed. I don't see murder as being a motive of revenge for some sexual misconduct UNLESS it was a father or a husband defending his daughter/wife
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by irina »

I agree it isn't a good thing to go delving into sexual ideas yet it is something to lightly consider. For instance did Lizzie have a hatchet in her bedroom to defend against unwanted advances, not necessarily from Morse, but from anyone who may have entered the house? Then we don't need a big plan about taking the hatchet upstairs in folded laundry. (Although that always seemed stupid to me; with the skirts of those days, simply holding a hatchet by the handle and having the arm straight down would conceal it initially.)

It is worthwhile to think IF Lizzie did it, what sparked such a rage against Abby on that day? Could it have been a comment like, "You really should try to have dinner with Uncle John once while he's here", and things escalated from there? Just something in passing. It is very odd to me that Lizzie avoided Uncle John and didn't even poke her head in the door and say hi. Could be lots of reasons. Incidentally there are all kinds of comments about Uncle John seeing "nieces" but I am not fluent enough in the genealogy to know if the nieces were blood related to him as opposed to their husbands for example. Still, in those days with strict society enforced morals , was it normal for a grown uncle to take his grown nieces out for the day without a chaperon? Perhaps Uncle John was the one everyone hoped to get an inheritance from.

There is a whole new industry trying to prove this or that historical figure was gay, for example. In reality back in the days when sex was only whispered about lots of people probably didn't know what they were if they didn't fit into the norms or didn't have strong drives. Despite the sexually charged world we live in, many individuals are not sexually over charged. In these matters I always think of a quote from Louisa May Alcott, whom the LGBT community would love to claim. I don't remember the whole thing but she was commenting on why she didn't marry. She said she had lots of good friendships with men but had never felt strongly enough about any of them to marry, and that she was more comfortable with friendships with women. I have horribly misstated it but it is very non-committal and non-sexual in any direction.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by PossumPie »

irina wrote:I agree it isn't a good thing to go delving into sexual ideas yet it is something to lightly consider. For instance did Lizzie have a hatchet in her bedroom to defend against unwanted advances, not necessarily from Morse, but from anyone who may have entered the house? Then we don't need a big plan about taking the hatchet upstairs in folded laundry. (Although that always seemed stupid to me; with the skirts of those days, simply holding a hatchet by the handle and having the arm straight down would conceal it initially.)

It is worthwhile to think IF Lizzie did it, what sparked such a rage against Abby on that day? Could it have been a comment like, "You really should try to have dinner with Uncle John once while he's here", and things escalated from there? Just something in passing. It is very odd to me that Lizzie avoided Uncle John and didn't even poke her head in the door and say hi. Could be lots of reasons. Incidentally there are all kinds of comments about Uncle John seeing "nieces" but I am not fluent enough in the genealogy to know if the nieces were blood related to him as opposed to their husbands for example. Still, in those days with strict society enforced morals , was it normal for a grown uncle to take his grown nieces out for the day without a chaperon? Perhaps Uncle John was the one everyone hoped to get an inheritance from.

.
I've come to the tenuous conclusion that this was not a spur-of-the-moment impulsive crime of passion/rage. Too much planning seemed to go into preparation and clean-up. The killer waited an hour and a half between killings. No, who ever did the killing it was calmly and with forethought planned. Abby did not say something to a drunk, Lizzie, or anyone else that caused them to fly off and hack her up, then calmly sit and wait for Andrew...they were BOTH the targets from the beginning.
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