Dr. Bowen

This the place to have frank, but cordial, discussions of the Lizzie Borden case

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Curryong
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by Curryong »

Irina,some quick points. Skirts, by the early 1890's, weren't loose and bulky. Bodices were quite decorative but also tight and moulded to the figure but skirts were plain and quite smooth around the hips. Some were lightly pleated further down but not in such deep folds as could conceal a hatchet.

I don't think Lizzie carried a hatchet from downstairs because IMO none of the cellar hatchets were THE one. I think a smallish gilded hatchet was already concealed in her room. She may have used a piece of linen to conceal it when she entered the guest room as perhaps the door was only ajar and she didn't want screaming etc if Abby happened to be over on the other side of the room. As it was, Lizzie's luck was in. Abby was probably leaning over the bed with her back to her, as the blood splatter indicates.

John didn't take any of his nieces out on their own. On the trip to Swansea Mrs Emery was chaperone to Emma and vice versa. I certainly think that Mrs Emery (who didn't know John very well) may well have thought of him as a relative to keep on the right side of because of his wealth.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by Curryong »

Possum, why do you now believe that both murders may have been carefully planned? I do think, by the way, that Lizzie did probably fantasise for years about removing Abby from the picture.
The only thing that possibly argues against careful and meticulous planning is Lizzie's feeble attempts at an alibi for both murders, the contradictions etc. Or are you considering an accomplice?
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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Curryong wrote:Possum, why do you now believe that both murders may have been carefully planned? I do think, by the way, that Lizzie did probably fantasise for years about removing Abby from the picture.
The only thing that possibly argues against careful and meticulous planning is Lizzie's feeble attempts at an alibi for both murders, the contradictions etc. Or are you considering an accomplice?
Let me clarify. Perhaps she didn't plan carefully, that wasn't what I meant. There are two possibilities.

1. The killer/killers spontaneously killed Abby and Andrew with no prior thought of murder. This is what we see in a bar fight. you anger me, I shove you, you kill me. Non-premeditated. This is the idea of a drunk being scolded by Abby.

2. The killer/killers thought about killing. Perhaps not that exact day and time, but maybe. They had a reason to kill, a motive that was festering awhile. Often people plan out a murder, and even the details, but not being creative, fail to pre-plan all the questions and contradictions that may arise. I think Lizzie planned to kill them both, the opportunity arose, and she killed. Then faced with questions, she gives answers that are lies, that she realizes makes her look bad, so contradicts her earlier lies. Often in interrogation, killers confess after they realize that their story is now so full of holes and contradictions that they can't possibly keep supporting it.

The 90 minutes or so between killings leads me to believe this wasn't a non-premeditated crime. You don't 'snap' kill, wait around an hour and a half, then stir up the old anger again, kill a second time, then casually stroll off into the sunset. I concede that it may NOT have been Lizzie, or Lizzie alone, but I have abandoned the idea of a non-premeditated, spur of the moment crime. It was no stranger.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by Curryong »

Could it not be a mixture, Possum?
As in a killer fantasising, brooding for years about their hatred for Abby. Some plans are made during those years, especially when it becomes clear (in the killer's mind, not in reality) that Abby has undue influence over Andrew in the money department.
Some conversation is overheard on the Wednesday afternoon between John Morse and Andrew about the Swansea farm and conclusions are drawn, again erroneously.

The killer murders opportunistically on the Thursday morning as a result of rage boiling up over what was overheard the day before. It is known already that Abby has to die first anyway (been known for years) (a) because she is the primary cause of the hatred (b) because Andrew would conclude who the killer was. The killer wouldn't lead the lifestyle she deserved.

Andrew is killed, not so much out of burning hatred but from pure necessity. It HAS to be done, otherwise the most important person in the world in the killer's eyes (herself) will suffer. (Prison or mental institution.) This murder therefore, in spite of the terrible head injuries, was not committed in a rage.

A hitman COULD have been hired by the killer, but in my view there are too many difficulties. Nor do I believe Uncle Morse knew or suspected who killed his friends. I'm not so sure about Bowen, but any suspicion he may have had lurking, (after a while) could have been thrust away because of the killer's gender and 'gentility'.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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I ran across the following post within the topic titled, what would have make a person get this violent?, while doing some research on a totally different subject, and I found it quite interesting. It was posted by Shelley, who was an innkeeper at 92 Second Street for 10 years.

On Wed Oct 31, 2007, Shelley posted:

If all the window are open, you cannot hear a conversation in the sitting room from Lizzie's room unless the speakers stand right in the sitting room window and speak loudly. You have to go out on the front hall upstairs landing to hear a conversation in the sitting room- of course that would also have been very easy for Lizzie to have done Wednesday night when she came home from Alice's.

What I have found more interesting is the fact that Lizzie moved her headboard right into that corner by the door between her room and Abby's room. Her pillow lines up exactly with the KEYHOLE into the older Borden's bedroom and yes, every single word anyone says in that room can be heard clear as a bell. Andy's safe was also right in that room behind Lizzie pillow. I never thought it was a coincidence she moved that bed as soon as she got back from Europe and crammed it right in that corner. Sure, it kept Abby or anyone else from ever being able to come through that door, but it also gave her the best spot in the house to eavesdrop.


Source: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3183&p=53714

Borden House Second Floor Layout.gif
Did Lizzie overhear the conversation between Andrew and John Morse on the evening of the 3rd? Could Andrew have had a conversation with Abby after he and John Morse retired for the evening, and Lizzie overheard them? Perhaps, a conversation which gave Lizzie the impression that action needed to take place ASAP?
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Last edited by twinsrwe on Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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Curryong wrote:Could it not be a mixture, Possum?
Absolutely... I meant that it is highly unlikely that a stranger popped off killed Abby out of fury, then sat around for an hour and a half to kill Andrew. No amount of planning a murder would get every point exact. Upon questioning, people contradict earlier statements.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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This is very interesting indeed, twinsrwe. Thank you very much for posting that.

It's quite creepy really. The thought of Lizzie spying through the keyhole, listening to what was being said between her parents, watching maybe as her father stored money in his safe, (at a time when she was on $4 a week allowance), is extraordinary. She didn't need to listen in to conversations between John and Andrew, did she? No doubt Andrew would have relayed some of it later to Abby.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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Curryong wrote:This is very interesting indeed, twinsrwe. Thank you very much for posting that.

It's quite creepy really. The thought of Lizzie spying through the keyhole, listening to what was being said between her parents, watching maybe as her father stored money in his safe, (at a time when she was on $4 a week allowance), is extraordinary. She didn't need to listen in to conversations between John and Andrew, did she? No doubt Andrew would have relayed some of it later to Abby.
Yes, it's the little things like that which can nudge one theory or another along...
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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Fascinating! The floor plans for that house always drive me crazy. This is the most useful one I have ever seen. Excellent.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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Curryong wrote:This is very interesting indeed, twinsrwe. Thank you very much for posting that.

It's quite creepy really. The thought of Lizzie spying through the keyhole, listening to what was being said between her parents, watching maybe as her father stored money in his safe, (at a time when she was on $4 a week allowance), is extraordinary. She didn't need to listen in to conversations between John and Andrew, did she? No doubt Andrew would have relayed some of it later to Abby.
You’re welcome, Curryong.

Lizzie’s conversation with Alice Russell on the 3rd, leads me to believe that she obviously had an inkling something big was about to happen. She gets home and immediately goes up to her bedroom; she doesn’t even bother to acknowledge her Uncle John’s presence. Once she is upstairs, it would have been quite easy for her to have listened in on the conversation between her father and Uncle John from the upstairs front hall landing. Once Andrew retired for the evening, he could have filled Abby in on what was talked about after she retired for the evening; again, Lizzie could have easily listened in on any conversation which may have taken place between Andrew and Abby.

I have to wonder why Lizzie moved her bed to that particular location; was to so that she could listen in on any conversations that Andrew and Abby would have had? Shelley stated that Lizzie moved her bed to that location as soon as she got back from her European tour in 1890, so that means Lizzie had around two years of eavesdropping in on Andrew and Abby’s conversations.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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PossumPie wrote:... Yes, it's the little things like that which can nudge one theory or another along...
I agree, Possum. The position of Lizzie’s bed is certainly intriguing.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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irina wrote:Fascinating! The floor plans for that house always drive me crazy. This is the most useful one I have ever seen. Excellent.
I agree, Irina. Here are the floor plans for the first floor, basement and barn, which you may also find useful:
Borden House First Floor Layout.gif
Borden House Basement.gif
Borden House Barn.gif
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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I also have this one for the attic:

Borden House Attic.gif
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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Thank you very much for posting these plans, twinrwe. They are indeed very clear.
Yes about two years of peering and listening from the comfort of her bed, and,of course, the 'daylight robbery' occurred during that time.
I haven't seen the barn blueprints before. The barn looks very spacious actually, (more so than the house which, as usual, appears cramped with small rooms). Plenty of room for hay for the horse no longer in residence! The cellar looks quite primitive, by contrast. Imagine having to go downstairs by the light of a candle into those conditions if you had to use the facilities. In a way it's understandable that slop pails were used. All because an old man wouldn't put in a modern toilet and wash basin near the bedrooms!
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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I'm leaning toward this being planned and executed by Lizzie and at least one other person with Emma's foreknowledge although perhaps the visit from Uncle John moved up their plans. One aspect of the crime I haven't seen discussed is the difference between what they knew a priori and what we know a posteriori.

For instance, we now understand due to a scientific experiment that blood splatter would be far less than might be expected. But I doubt the killer knew this before the bludgeoning began. Ditto for the hatchet which disappears into thin air. I don't think the killer or killers snapped in a fit of rage, smashed in Abby's head, then waited 90 minutes and smashed in Andrew's face (which I see as entirely rage directed) and somehow cleverly managed to get rid of the hatchet for either a year or forever, depending on whether it ended up on Crowe's barn, without some fairly thoughtful planning prior to the crime.

I'm of two faces regarding Morse. One being that his arrival and the conversation overheard by Lizzie forced her to move up the murders, either by days or weeks and at least by hours. Perhaps to get them done before Morse arrived home for lunch. Otherwise she and Bridget might have headed out the side door for a fabric sale leaving Andrew dead on the sofa to be discovered later. The second is that Morse had something to do with the crime. Lots of discussion about how Lizzie and Morse engaged in no communication during those two days. Well....if I were plotting a murder with someone like Uncle John, I wouldn't spend a lot of time chit chatting with him on the day before the murder...

As you can see from the house plans, Lizzie could've had someone living in Emma's room without anyone noticing. Or someone could've come home with her and up the stairs following her visit with Alice Russell. After reading about Axman Billy and the Villisca Ax murders, I have no doubt that with proper caution they could've sneaked in the front door and up the stairs without being noticed. Partly because it was dark in the house without electricity, and also because Andrew, Abby and John Morse were getting to the age where hearing naturally fails. Plus we hear what we expect to hear (Lizzie coming home and going upstairs) just like we see what we expect to see.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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Emma I have never been able to make up my mind about. Some enigmatic quality and the fact we know so little about her is the explanation, I suppose. She's divided a lot of posters in the past with regard to her foreknowledge of the crime.
I have to say I jump about a bit with regard to Emma. She seems to me to have, at the least, worried about Lizzie's mood before she went to Fairhaven, confiding in Alice that she hoped her sister would go on holiday to Marion. Whether it was just a vague niggling worry or whether Emma actually knew something was going to happen, or she conspired with Lizzie, is one of those grey areas that I guess can be debated for ever!
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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I had quite a heated discussion a while back with another member who believed that the police would surely have found the hatchet if Lizzie had hid it in the house. His belief in her innocence was in part hinged on the fact that the murder weapon was never found- meaning to him that it was taken away by the killer rather than hidden in the house/grounds by Lizzie. I completely disagree. I could hide a hatchet in my house without problem and the cops could search for a year and never find it. They are trained to look in toilet tanks, in dresser drawers, freezers, and under furniture but a person knows there house better than anyone else, and the loose floorboard in the back of your closet, or the small ledge up under the corner cupboard that is attached to the wall would conceal a hatchet through the most thorough search. People who believe the cops could find it have no creative imagination of hiding places!!!

As for blood splatter, The killer may THINK there will be a lot, but As Debbiediablo said, there just isn't. That is a product of really bad horror movies. I posted a picture months back of a CSI in a pristine white jumpsuit after she bashed the heck out of a forensic skull full of fake blood. The splatter was confined to the hand and forearm that swung the hammer, and the lower shins. Easy enough to clean up.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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I'm not saying the hatchet couldn't have been hidden in the house although I'm inclined to think otherwise. Dr. Bowen is high on my list of consideration for taking it out in his bag while going to telegraph Emma before making sure Lizzie was being left safely behind. My other choice is the roof.

If it was well hidden in the house following a spur-of-the-moment crime then the hiding place had been known and used for years by at least Lizzie and probably Emma. If the killer used Andrew's coat to keep off the blood splatter I don't think the idea was devised in 90 minutes. This had either been thought through with care or seeing the coat rang a bell in the killer's brain. I'm not a big fan of the coat because it's not placed where it should be to soak up maximal blood to ensure the splatter is covered; I see it as an 'undoing' of the crime which points the finger straight at Lizzie being involved.

How I view the crime (and Bowen's connection to it) has a lot to with whether I think it was spur of the moment or planned or, most likely, fantasy made reality for some reason. Yes, Curryong, whether Emma wanted Lizzie to go to Marion to chill, to reassess her murder plans or to establish a good alibi and let the real/other murderer take over is an interesting question. I keep trying to look at this through the mind of the killer prior to the murder...not the police or all of us examining the minutiae 122 years later.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by irina »

The color coded floor plans are such a help! Thanks, twinsrwe!

I still don't think Lizzie did the murders but am willing to think she knew something was going on.

One thing that bothers me, whoever did it, it seems to me that some blood, via gravity would have run down the hatchet handle and therefore there would be a possibility of bloody hand prints on door knobs for example. If Lizzie for example washed her hands in a sink, blood can be difficult to completely wash down the drain with our high pressure water systems today. I rather imagine the water supply in 1892 as being very weak. In a hurry, there are likely to be traces on hands that could possibly leave smears on towels, etc. This observation speaks to the time frame following Andrew's demise. I feel Lizzie for example would need to wash her hands at least, to not have ANY blood on her hands, and that would take time to do and make sure the kitchen sink (or barn sink) was clean, etc.

A good hiding place in any Victorian building, considering they didn't use insulation, is a hole or open space in the wall, making empty space, sometimes a couple stories deep, between wall covering and outside siding. In one of my houses there is a space like this somewhere unknown to me, so that I cannot absolutely keep pet cats in the house. They all find this place wherever it is. I feel certain it is not at baseboard level and may be up in a closet. But like I said before the wood stove alone would have many spaces to hide a hatchet, where especially male police would probably never think to look.

A possible theory of the crime I can see is that the actual killer told Lizzie to go to the barn, stay out of sight, that it would only take a few minutes to what...have a talk with her father?
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by debbiediablo »

irina wrote:
A possible theory of the crime I can see is that the actual killer told Lizzie to go to the barn, stay out of sight, that it would only take a few minutes to what...have a talk with her father?
I see Lizzie going to the barn because she could not bear to watch her father's demise even though she may have killed Abby herself.

Interesting that the bed was moved...then I wonder whether the chimney and area around it had a spot to hide the hatchet for at least a cursory search by the police. Where boundaries are concerned, the area closest to Lizzie's bed would be the most comfortable for her to hide something and the most forbidden for the searchers...especially if she were reclining on it suffering from shock and grief. Of course, if someone else helped then the murderer likely left with the weapon.

Cats do have curiosity! We had an exceptionally smart neutered male, Rodney, who was supposed to sleep in our very nice basement but would reappear back on the first floor within ten minutes after being put down. My husband was so intrigued that he set up a movie camera (the cat wasn't interested in getting back upstairs so long as he had human companionship in the basement) to see how Rodney was getting back upstairs. I designed the house and we were hands-on in its construction, so there was no possibility of a century-old nook or cranny that we hadn't yet discovered.

What we saw was Rodney jumping onto the pressure tank for our water system; from there jumping over onto the sill and then walking carefully along a water pipe to the exhaust duct for the clothes dryer. This was out on the middle of the room. He would traverse the duct to where it went up through the floor. Rodney was a small cat. He then somehow managed to squeeze himself up through the hole alongside the dryer ductwork...and voila! Back upstairs in the laundry room! Never in a million years would we have figured this out...sort of like how it will be with the Borden murders.... :grin:
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by Curryong »

Love your story of Rodney, debbie. Although I am more a dog person I like cats too, and Rodney's exit and entry strategies from the basement shows real thought, or cunning, (a bit like the Borden killer!) Incidentally, my hairdresser has a cat called Claude. He sometimes gets over-excited and claws people. Get it!

I still cling to my theory of the Crowe barn weapon, but I agree the hatchet could have been hidden anywhere in the house. The jury were obviously unimpressed with the prosecution theory of a hatchet blade covered in hot ashes and a handle in two bits. Nobody now, including the people at the Fall River Historical Society, believes that particular hatchet is it.

If the killer wore gloves, a pair of gloves that were later burned in the stove, there would be no blood on the hands, but is don't necessarily believe that there would be blood splatter that high up or in that direction. Look at the report of the blood splatter in the 'All About Andrew' thread. Most of it went downwards, and the killer's right lower leg and right foot would have got a splatter, a right leg that might well have been covered up.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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Curryong wrote:Thank you very much for posting these plans, twinrwe. They are indeed very clear.
Yes about two years of peering and listening from the comfort of her bed, and,of course, the 'daylight robbery' occurred during that time.
I haven't seen the barn blueprints before. The barn looks very spacious actually, (more so than the house which, as usual, appears cramped with small rooms). Plenty of room for hay for the horse no longer in residence! The cellar looks quite primitive, by contrast. Imagine having to go downstairs by the light of a candle into those conditions if you had to use the facilities. In a way it's understandable that slop pails were used. All because an old man wouldn't put in a modern toilet and wash basin near the bedrooms!
You’re welcome, Curryong. I agree, these blueprints do help tremendously in making it clear where items were located.

It is not a known fact that Lizzie did eavesdrop in on Andrew and Abby’s conversations, but it is intriguing that she decides to move her bed to that position two years before the murders, and the fact that one can clearly hear any conversation which may have taken place between the two elderly Bordens. Emma originally occupied the larger bedroom, but offered it to Lizzie. The exact time when this switch occurred was not actually established during Emma’s testimony.

Trial
Emma
Q. The room that she occupied was the room directly over the

Page 1563 / i586

sitting room?
A. No, sir.

Q. Your sister Lizzie?
A. Oh, yes, sir.

Q. That is what I mean. And the room that you occupied was the room adjacent to it?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were much the older?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Your room was very much smaller?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Had you previously occupied a different room?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Which room had you previously occupied?
A. My sister's room.

Q. Had you occupied it with her or had she occupied a different room?
A. She had occupied a different room.

Q. Which room had she occupied?
A. The one that I now have.

Q. When was the change made?
A. I don't know.

Q. How long ago, about?
A. I should think not more than two years.

Q. The room that you occupy was a room that had no exit excepting through her room?
A. No, sir.

Q. Was the change made at her request?
A. No, sir.

Q. At your own suggestion?
A. I offered it to her.

Q. Was it in consequence of anything said by her?
A. No, sir.

Did Emma mean not more than two years prior to the murders in 1892, or not more than two years prior to when she was asked the question in 1893? According to the information Shelley posted, Lizzie moved her bed into that position as soon as she got back from Europe. So, I’m thinking that Emma meant not more than two years prior to the murders. It’s just such an odd place for a bed to be.

Yes, the barn does appear to be quite spacious. We know there was hay in the barn, and a box as well as a basket filled with odds and ends. However, we don’t know exactly everything the Borden had in the barn, so it may not have been as spacious as the blueprint leads us to believe.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by twinsrwe »

irina wrote:The color coded floor plans are such a help! Thanks, twinsrwe! …
You’re welcome, irina. I agree, the color coding is a huge help!
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by Curryong »

Yes, maybe it was a genuine inability to remember exactly when the rooms were exchanged. However, sometimes you get the impression of some fudging, some tiny evasions in Emma's answers at the trial. This isn't sinister. I think Emma naturally wanted to help her sister as much as she could. To be fair, Bridget does the same thing at times during her testimony.

I agree with you. In such a spacious room, that bed is in a very odd position!
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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I totally agree, Curryong. I think Emma did quite a bit of fudging for Lizzie, after all it was her 'duty' to protect 'little Lizzie'. If I remember correctly, didn't Emma say that she told Lizzie to burn the dress? (Please, correct me if I'm wrong on that). I think Bridget knew a lot more than what she let on; for example didn't she testified that there wasn't any discord between the family members? (Again, correct me if I'm wrong).
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by Curryong »

No, you are totally correct, twinsrwe!
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by irina »

Cats sense drafts with their faces. That's how they can do sneaky things. Wow, that's quite a cat. You never would have figured it out without a camera. Darn cats.

When I think of blood on hands I am thinking of some blood running down the handle during commission of the crime. I'm not a person who thinks blood quirts all over the place. The only time I ever saw blood spurt was when I ran a leather needle through my own hand and I hit what had to be a tiny arteriole. Even so the blood settled right down and filled the palm of my hand before I could apply pressure, which quickly ended the excitement. Other bloody things I've seen in real life, blood just oozed and dripped. Sometimes a lot of it but none of it spurted. Blood is thick and a non-Newtonian fluid. I would think gloves in the Borden case would have to have been hidden as I think the fire was too low to burn them up, thus they would have smoldered and perhaps made a bad smell.

I commented before that Emma always seemed sinister to me. It makes sense that Lizzie's near lifelong dislike of Abby almost had to come from Emma, as Abby seems like a decent, even kind and nice person. Emma could have influenced Lizzie to be at least friendlier with Abby and smoothed some things over in my opinion. Lizzie would have been too young when her mother died to have such strong loyalty to her mother that she emphatically rejected Abby, without some help in that direction I think. Lots of kids had step-parents in those days because birth parents died a lot younger than they do now. Lots of kids were lucky if they had step-parents that were basically decent and I think those kids knew they were fortunate in that. Unless Abby was excessively cruel some way we don't know, I always opine that Emma is the instigator.

Back in the late 60's putting a bed in a room like Lizzie had hers, was considered a decorating strategy that was artistic and supposedly it created more room or made the room look bigger, but I don't see how. This was the NINETEEN-60s. My point is only, is there an advantage to such an arrangement? (I doubt it.) I'm not commenting about whether or not she was eavesdropping, only if the room's arrangement is a viable choice by itself. I think Lizzie had an artistic streak which is noticeable in her choice of Maplecroft among other things. Her choice in clothing to me, is overdone. Yes I know those were the styles of the times but in my opinion she opted for excessive ruffles, ruching, decorations, etc., when a little less would have been elegant. What I have seen of the Maplecroft interiors are elegant though I personally find the exterior to be overdone and inelegant~and a nightmare for any roofers unfortunate enough to work on it.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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twinsrwe wrote:
It’s just such an odd place for a bed to be.
From a strictly logical point of view the bed makes a doorway into useable wall space on the interior wall of the house which would be decidedly warmer in winter, especially with the chimney there if it was still in use. It also allows traffic flow for Emma to get in and out of her room unencumbered.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by Curryong »

Wasn't the chimney blocked up at the time No 92 was made into a single dwelling? I'm sure I read that in one of the threads ages ago, but heaven knows which!
Oh, come on, debbie, she couldn't have manoeuvred her bed flat against that end wall? It had to be so conveniently placed for listening purposes! Admittedly, it's the most awkward house I've ever seen in my life! Multiple doors, leading not into corridors but others' rooms, hardly any usable wall space, closets out in lobbies. I certainly wouldn't want to live there!
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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Curryong wrote:No, you are totally correct, twinsrwe!
Thanks, Curryong. :grin:
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by twinsrwe »

debbiediablo wrote:
twinsrwe wrote:
It’s just such an odd place for a bed to be.
From a strictly logical point of view the bed makes a doorway into useable wall space on the interior wall of the house which would be decidedly warmer in winter, especially with the chimney there if it was still in use. It also allows traffic flow for Emma to get in and out of her room unencumbered.
I’m sorry, Debbie, but I have to disagree. Lizzie could have placed the left side of her bed up against the interior wall beside Emma’s room, with her pillow toward the doorway of Emma’s bedroom; this would have prevented her from overhearing any conversations that were none of her business, as well as any activity a married couple would naturally have in their private bedroom, which again was none of her business. I agree that by having her bed close to the interior wall would have kept her warmer in the winter. However, the chimney is actually located in Andrew and Abby’s bedroom. So, I highly doubt Lizzie would have been warmer because of the chimney, since a wall separated her room from it. Furthermore, she could have put her desk in front of the locked door to Andrew and Abby’s bedroom, which would have given Emma a much clearer path to her bedroom.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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Curryong wrote:Wasn't the chimney blocked up at the time No 92 was made into a single dwelling? I'm sure I read that in one of the threads ages ago, but heaven knows which! ...
Could this be what you are referring to?

Witness Statements page 38 From the notes of Officer Desmond:

...After finishing the east chimney, which is the one in the kitchen, we went to look at the one in the west of building. This runs up between the parlor and dining room. The side in the dining room seemed to be bricked up or cemented. While we were looking over it, Emma and Lizzie both said “if this front is in your way, tear it out.” Mr. Jennings was there at, the time. Emma spoke about a “lumber pile in the yard”, and thought it would be a good place to search. Mr. Bryant, and myself went into the cellar; and it was thoroughly searched by Edson, Conners, Quigley and Desmond. From there, we went and searched he barn, lumber pile, yard, privy vault and well, also John Crowe’s yard which is on south side of Borden house.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by debbiediablo »

Regarding the bed in front of the door: Lizzie likely placed furniture in front of the door to the guest room, too. And Abby placed furniture in front of the same door as Lizzie. With so many doors, they appear to be viewed as wall space by everyone. We'll never know which came first the chicken or the egg - whether Lizzie moved the furniture to spy or moved the furniture and found she could spy. Then again, maybe Andrew and Abby weren't entirely stupid - perhaps their important conversations took place when they or Lizzie were elsewhere.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by Curryong »

Yes, twinsrwe, it is, thank you!

Yes, debbie, I suppose after the daylight robbery everyone in that house was suspicious of everybody and everything, including the possibility of ears flapping nearby.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by twinsrwe »

debbiediablo wrote:Regarding the bed in front of the door: Lizzie likely placed furniture in front of the door to the guest room, too. And Abby placed furniture in front of the same door as Lizzie. With so many doors, they appear to be viewed as wall space by everyone. We'll never know which came first the chicken or the egg - whether Lizzie moved the furniture to spy or moved the furniture and found she could spy. Then again, maybe Andrew and Abby weren't entirely stupid - perhaps their important conversations took place when they or Lizzie were elsewhere.
I agree. According to the second floor house plan shown above, Abby did have something (object is not identified in the information provided) placed in front of the door to Lizzie’s room. Lizzie also had her desk placed in front of the door leading from her room to the guest room. It does seem that they did view locked doors as wall space.

You’re right, we will never know whether Lizzie moved her furniture to eavesdrop on Andrew and Abby, or she moved her furniture and found out she could eavesdrop on them. Actually, we’ll never know if Lizzie did indeed eavesdrop on Andrew and Abby at all, although if Shelley discovered this tidbit, then I can’t imagine that Lizzie didn’t also discover it, and used it to her advantage.

Unfortunately, we are never going to know if Andrew and Abby were even aware of the fact that Lizzie could hear their conversations from her room, in the comfort of her own bed no less.

I would really like to know:

Why did Lizzie decided to move her furniture in the first place?
How was the furniture arranged before she move it?

I’m sure we are never going to know the answer to these questions either.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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Curryong wrote:Yes, twinsrwe, it is, thank you! ...
You're welcome.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by Kevin Luna »

Curryong wrote:Nobody now, including the people at the Fall River Historical Society, believes that particular hatchet is it.
The Fall River Historical Society has incentive to keep everyone believing that the handleless hatchet isn't the murder weapon. The interest in the Borden case sprouts from the mystery, the two biggest being "Did Lizzie do it?" and "Where's the hatchet?" If that handleless hatchet is the murder weapon, both of those questions are definitively answered. No more mystery. People lose interest in Lizzie Borden. People lose interest in Fall River.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by Kevin Luna »

Curryong wrote: The only thing that possibly argues against careful and meticulous planning is Lizzie's feeble attempts at an alibi for both murders, the contradictions etc.
Her feeble attempts are probably the result of being forced to alter her alibi on the fly, possibly after realizing that her actions that day did not sync up with her planned alibi. Apparently, things didn't go quite like she had expected.

The contradictions are simply the result of a liar getting themselves mixed up by their own lies.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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The Fall River Historical Society has no incentive at all. To anyone who has studied the case intensely, the conclusion is a simple one. There is no proof that the axe head at the Historical Society was the weapon used to kill the Bordens. It was a 'grasping for straws' by the police who had no answers and had to submit something in the way of a weapon to make their case against Lizzie have some validation. Even the prosecution didn't believe that the handless axe was the weapon. And if they did, they knew they had no proof to say it was. At the trail the handless axe was never put forth as the weapon used in the crime. Though it was used in courtroom theatrics to imply such. Thus in defense for the staff at the FRHS. I don't believe that they care one way or the other. They are just following the path the evidence leads them in.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

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mbhenty wrote:The Fall River Historical Society has no incentive at all. To anyone who has studied the case intensely, the conclusion is a simple one. There is no proof that the axe head at the Historical Society was the weapon used to kill the Bordens. It was a 'grasping for straws' by the police who had no answers and had to submit something in the way of a weapon to make their case against Lizzie have some validation. Even the prosecution didn't believe that the handless axe was the weapon. And if they did, they knew they had no proof to say it was. At the trail the handless axe was never put forth as the weapon used in the crime. Though it was used in courtroom theatrics to imply such. Thus in defense for the staff at the FRHS. I don't believe that they care one way or the other. They are just following the path the evidence leads them in.
The FRHS does have incentive, and I already explained why.

There's no proof that Lizzie was guilty, yet virtually everyone "who has studied the case intensely" believes that Lizzie was guilty.

"Grasping for straws"? Police had "no answers"? Sounds like one of the newspapers at the time.

I'm not really concerned with whether it could be "proven" in court that the handleless hatchet was the murder weapon. I'm looking for a legitimate reason to believe that it wasn't the murder weapon. So far I haven't gotten any. Not enough time, no direct physical evidence, "To anyone who has studied the case intensely", "Even the prosecution didn't believe", the hair on it wasn't human. These are not good enough. It's like using the argument "Lizzie was acquitted" as a reason to believe that she wasn't guilty. Uh, no.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by Kevin Luna »

mbhenty wrote:Thus in defense for the staff at the FRHS. I don't believe that they care one way or the other. They are just following the path the evidence leads them in.
But there's more evidence that the handleless hatchet is the murder weapon than there's evidence that she hid the weapon, yes? There's literally zero evidence that she hid the weapon, right?
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by mbhenty »

Calm down Luna:

This is a discussion not a squabble.

But that being said.....

I know the staff at the Historical Society and I know them well. It's all about history. Not incentive. At the very least not the warped, underhanded kind which you hint at.

You claim that virtually EVERYONE "who has studied the case intensely" believes that Lizzie was guilty. Have no idea who "EVERYONE" is but you are wrong there. Let me lend you some unfriendly advise. Don't believe everything you read. Look it up yourself. It's called plugging the source.

And the police did have NOTHING on Lizzie. Not sure if you know this, but she was found not guilty.

And the fact that you are "not concerned with whether it could be "proven" in court....etc., or a reason to why it was not the weapon....well you just have the entire thing backwards.

The idea was to prove that it was the weapon. They had no intention to do so. They couldn't. The prosecution did not even use the handless hatchet as incriminating proof or even the possibility of being the weapon used. If you can't do that in court than you have NOTHING. All they had was something which was discovered by the police, which adds up to NOTHING. Not bloody dress, no bloody weapon, no eye witnesses to the killings...NOTHING.

And just like someone in court who perjures himself and can't be believed, you have proven that you row the same boat, because there was never any hair on the handless hatchet, human or otherwise. You have your hatchets/axes mixed up. It was the claw hammer hatchet where two hairs were found and some rust. It was the claw hammer hatchet which was inspected and displayed in court as having two hairs on it, and rust, and it had a handle. But have no shame. I was a novice once.

And for those who have studied the case intensely, in and out, up and down, and I don't mean by reading Spiring, de mille, Sullivan, Kent, Radin, etc., they are left with only one conclusion and it would be wise of them to make it clear. And that is that no one knows if Lizzie did it or not. We just don't have the facts needed. When it comes to her guilt there is NOTHING.

So when you return to "Lizzie Borden School" learn your facts. Then come back and we can have an adult conversation about it.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by Kevin Luna »

mbhenty wrote:And just like someone in court who perjures himself and can't be believed, you have proven that you row the same boat, because there was never any hair on the handless hatchet, human or otherwise.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C77TckcWHlk

Fast forward to 5:16. Who has their hatchets mixed up? Michael martins or you? :oops:
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by Kevin Luna »

mbhenty wrote:At the trail the handless axe was never put forth as the weapon used in the crime.
According to Michael Martins, in that YouTube video I linked, it was put forth as the murder weapon.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by mbhenty »

Hmmm :?:

Very interesting.

My apology to why you think that the hair came from the hatchet without the handle. My apology, indeed.

You have opened up an excellent discussion here.

Let me be so bold as to open the discussion by saying: Michael Martins misspoke.

I have no idea why he said what he said. But it is wrong. The hair he displays between the glass did not come from the handless hatchet. It came from the claw hammer hatchet. It is surprising to me, if not shocking, that he would have said such a thing.

The handless hatchet was found in an old salt box it the basement and for some reason was covered with ash. There is no official record, transcript, or witness statement from police, doctors, or anyone else that a hair was found on the handless hatchet. The hair Michael Martins holds up in the glass came from a claw hammer hatchet which had its full handle intact.

I was very surprise to hear Michael say what he did. I can only concluded that he misspoke. Or perhaps it was his incentive to stir controversy. (just kidding)

In any event, thanks for finding the video. I'll have to watch it in its entirety.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by mbhenty »

And as for Michael stating that it was the murder weapon presented in court. It was and it was not. It was brought to court. It was fitted into Andrew Borden's scull. But they never really said that it was the hatchet and that they had found the weapon. But the implications were pronounced. That is what they wanted the jury to believe. They just did not have any proof. Before the trial the prosecution was concentrating on the claw hammer hatchet, which they thought was the weapon. But if I remember correctly, they had a problem with that because the blade was to big.

Though there is much talk about it there is no record of what the claw axe actually looked like—in the way of photos. Probably like the one in the photo below. But that would just be a guess.

Interesting stuff, eh Kevin?
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by mbhenty »

Here is an old post from the Lizzie Borden Society Forum. A discussion about the claw hammer hatchet.

Pay attention to Harry Widdows and Kat Koorey talk about the hair and claw axe. Two of the most respectable and knowledgable Borden Historians I know. (Sadly, Harry past away almost two years ago.)

Come on Michael Martins. Get in on this! :!:


viewtopic.php?t=2545
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by Kevin Luna »

Michael Martins' brain fart is one reason why arguments like "To anyone who has studied the case intensely...", "Even the prosecution didn't believe...", and "Lizzie was acquitted", aren't legitimate arguments.

Also, your denial that the FRHS has monetary incentive to keep the mystery of the case alive is reminiscent of the 1892 denial that Lizzie had monetary incentive to kill her parents.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by mbhenty »

No! Just that I know how the curators of the Historical Society operate. Though the Borden history is a good portion of their sales I would not doubt that it adds up to less then 10 percent of them. Fall River has a tremendous history. The Bordens are a small portion of it. To those living outside Fall River the misconception that Lizzie Borden drives the Historical Society is just unfortunate. Michael Martin is a very honest, ethical and respectable person. I am not going to claim that he does not have a monetary incentive to keep the mystery alive, I'm just stating that he doesn't resort to deceptive motives to do so, conscientiously or otherwise.

I live just 3 blocks from the Historical Society and have been in and out of it for the past 50 years. I have studied the case for over 35 to 40 years. Even the house that I live in once belong to Lizzie Borden. So yes, I am one of those people that has studied the case intensely. Unfortunately I cannot stand by Michael Martins side in proclaiming that their was hair found on the handless axe, because there was not.

And there are few cases with more legitimate arguments than this one, whether it is Lizzie's acquittal or the prosecutions intentions. So your statement about legitimate arguments makes little sense. This case is full of arguments to which most scholars do not have solutions and which the public twists every which way. And that is the real reason why this case is still talked about. There is so much we don't know. And those who claim that they do are just exposing their incompetence and ignorance, aside from those who's warped solutions are woven into the pages of a book.
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Re: Dr. Bowen

Post by SallyG »

I don't think this was a spur-of-the-moment thing, but I do think it was something that was carefully organized and planned beforehand, although I'm not sure how far in advance. I have no doubt that Lizzie did it...she had the motive and the opportunity, and was careful to kill Abby first so there would be no problems with the inheritance.

I think Uncle John was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. But I doubt highly that an uncle would need a chaperone to visit with or drive with a niece...they were blood relatives.
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