Aquitted because of being a victorian woman?

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:24 am

Does anyone think that maybe Lizzie got accquitted because of being a Victorian woman? I mean, back then it was thought that women were the gentle sex feminine, proper, that kind of stuff. So maybe to the jurors mind, she couldn't have done it because she was a proper young women.
Just a thought I had.

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:30 am

I think to a degree it helped Lizzie. Didn't one of her lawyers say something to the jury about Lizzie being a "Christian woman." I think his point being how could this good woman who could be our own daughter/sister/wife be a murderer? About a month ago I read an article on the Emmett Till case and in that one of the lawyers made sure to mention something about the jury being "Anglo-Saxon" men. In that case the lawyer was using the juries own racism. So, yes, lawyers can try to use some hook on the jury.

That said, I think in the end it all came down to the fact that there wasn't enough evidence to convict Lizzie. No blood on her and no weapon. Sure, they had a hatchet but no proof it was the hatchet. No witness saw her do it. The inquest testimony couldn't be used and Eli Bence's testimony, for good reason, was also thrown out.

You know it's funny, I've been reading a lot of old posts and some posters think Lizzie might have been a bit dumb. I don't. She may not have been a criminal master mind but she sure pulled this off. Plus, I read that after her death Lizzie had more money than what her dad had left her. If that's true Lizzie was a lot more clever than some give her credit.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:45 am

Even today, mock trials have acquitted Lizzie due to lack of evidence.

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:27 am

I agree that Lizzie was acquitted for good reason, but her attorneys certainly did play the "lady" card. I remember a speech to the effect that "Sure Lizzie was at home at the time of the murders. Where would you expect her to be? At home is where a proper young lady should be found." Other women had been convicted of murder before Lizzie's time. There's the 1778 case of one Bathsheba Spooner (love her name!), often cited as a reason why Lizzie wouldn't have faced the death penalty. Ms. Spooner was convicted and executed, protesting that she was pregnant. After her execution, sure enough, it was found that she had been pregnant, and her innocent child had died with her. Thereafter (supposedly) juries were reluctant to recommend the death penalty for women of childbearing age. Of course, thanks to modern science, these days "childbearing age" can be almost any age!

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:31 pm

I think Lizzie was smart enough to figure a way to have someone else do it. Because she was a "proper" young lady she would be at home; she didnt hear or see anything. That's why I think she masterminded the whole thing. How else would she not hear or see anything while her father and step mother were getting axed to death?

Caesar · Post by **Caesar** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:12 pm

I think her being a woman and the jury being all male played a role and some of the stuff that was thrown out like for one was trying to buy poison the day before the murders, two she burnt her dress the next day, three she told the made to wash the windows outside the day of the murders ,and four she was giggling when the made told her that her mother was murdered.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:45 pm

Hi Caesar!
What have you read on the case? I see you live locally in Fall River?!
That's cool! Have you always lived there?

You're right the attempt to buy poison was thrown out, and Lizzie did burn a dress on Sunday- Sunday is interesting because it was the first day that Bridget was not there, and it was after Saturday when the mayor told her she was suspected. It's hard for her to explain that away.

As for Bridget washing the windows, Bridget herself says Abby told her to do that. Lizzie, when asked if she said anything about windows to Bridget that same Thursday said she remembered that she told Bridget to close the parlour blinds because the sun was so hot. Maybe someone thought that meant Lizzie gave an order to wash windows.

As for Lizzie giggling when told by Bridget that Abby was dead- I can't account for that at all. Supposedly Lizzie laughed while on the stairs when Bridget let Andrew in the front door when he came home from downstreet- but that's according to Bridget- and not when Abby died. Maybe there's a mix-up?

BTW: In Fall River, do they still use the phrase "Downstreet?"

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:29 am

yeah ceasar,

That is so cool living right there in River Falls. Have you ever been to Lizzie's house where the murders took place? Just curious.

Caesar · Post by **Caesar** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:40 am

Hello, Kat

Kat, I haven't read much on the case in awhile. when I was a teen I was a huge Lizzie buff. sorry if what I posted was a little off

Yes I 've lived here most of my life all but four years I was in the military. my uncle actually owned a house on the same street. it was very victorian it had that French roof and all.

"Downstreet" did that mean down town or South/North Main street. its kinda like a hill in that area. where the Borden block is. my mum works right across the street from that Block.

Caesar · Post by **Caesar** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:57 am

snokkums @ Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:29 am wrote:yeah ceasar,

That is so cool living right there in River Falls. Have you ever been to Lizzie's house where the murders took place? Just curious.

Hello, snokkums nice to meet you too!

I love the history and the four seasons we get we get here. I think the City has lost to many jobs. you see so many have gone either south or over sea's. drugs are a huge problem. I've also noticed that many of the middle class are moving out. the property value's have almost tripled so many people are selling and moving out of the city. they are also building an LNG plant that some people are afraid of too.

Yes I've been in the house a few times. I talked to the new owners about 5 months ago. they plan on taking down the printing press and putting the barn back up. there are storys going around that they plan on building a starbucks there, though I highly doubt it would go threw.

heres the link to the starbucks story

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking ... -8440r.htm

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 2:01 pm

Are you not there right now?
And is it a normal name for Fall River to be called River Falls, as snokkums did?

Here is a link to the owner's news about the demolition of The Leary Press, on this Forum.
And thanks for the news item link!

viewtopic.php?t=954&start=0

Caesar · Post by **Caesar** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:02 pm

Yes I live there now. I live off Rock street. Is it a normal name for Fall River to be called River Falls you ask, well, Quechechan is an Wampanoag word meaning "Falling Water." yes there are falls in the City its just that most people cant see them. they are covered by a highway 195. you would have to go under where the rail road tracks are. but be careful they still use them every Tuesday and Thursday they are building a new bridge, the Brightman Street bridge where they are comming more often. Wampanoag was a tribe that settled around the falls. nowadays I don't think many people know that or how Fall River got its name, there are many Portuguese immigrants here and I would bet that many don't know who Lizzie Borden was. the Wampanoag tribe sold many parts of the land in the area to the Colonials. Freetown was the last piece of land they sold, though its still has a part that is an Indian reservation.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:33 pm

Well I hope they don't tear it down and make a starbucks!! That would be awful. I am still trying to get up there to see the house.

Elizabeth Ann · Post by **Elizabeth Ann** » Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:59 am

I am very curious about the zoning of the Borden House and outbuildings. Isn't this part of some sort of Historical Register? If so I cannot imagine it could be altered so drastically as to tear down one of the buildings for a Starbucks.

Caesar · Post by **Caesar** » Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:43 am

There are many places in Fall River that are zoned Historical. however it seems as long as they don't tear down the site or rebuild something on the land. they can still do it. I believe the Borden mills are Historical but have just within the past few years have changed into the "Border City Mill Apartments" as well as some other historical mills and buildings.

heres what the mill looks like
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries ... ymills.jpg

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 am

Oh that's a post card from the website!

Is that the mill that also has a restaurant?

If it is, we've eaten there several times with residents but I never checked the name of the place!
It's cool, I like it!