To spite Emma

[DWilly]

I was under the impression that Lizzie and Nance O'Neil were only "friends" for a couple of years but I came across this on pg. 309 of the Rebello book. It's in regard to the interview Emma gave in 1913, to the Boston Post. In it Emma mentions Nance and says:

" Nance O'Neil has for many years been a close friend of Lizzie, and she holds that relation to this very day

Wait a minute! "to this very day" Ok, what am I missing here? Rest of the interview? Is she saying as late as 1913, Lizzie and Nance still had some contact? Or did Lizzie talk( even though everyone says they weren't speaking) to Emma and just for spite she told her she was still seeing Nance. I'm confused

[nbcatlover]

DWilly--I'm also confused. Perhaps they did "see" each other but did correspond. Any letters between them after the split would be interesting to read.

I believe they had some dealings about Emma's share of Maplecroft, and again, Rebello (p. 312) includes their agreement where Lizzie must pay Emma "rent" every 6 months.

Also, I know Nance O'Neill appeared in Fall River in October/November of 1904 (Rebello, p. 308), but on the next page Minna Littmann reported Lizzie met Nance at the Tremont (Boston). Does anyone know the year they met? I believe I read it somewhere, but I'm clueless right now.

[Kat]

Near the end of the Sourcebook, Nance O'Neil is quoted as saying she and Lizbeth were like ships passing in the night.
(p. 346)
"No letters were exchanged in the nearly quarter of a century which has elapsed since Miss Borden and Miss O'Neil bade each other goodbye.

'I am afraid I am a rather poor correspondent,' said the actress, flicking an ash from her cigarette into a tray of a red Chinese lacquer stand- gorgeous Chinese lacquer and carvings, embroideries and jade dominated the whole room.
'We were like ships that pass in the night and speak each other (sic) in passing.' "
--New Bedford Standard, by Minna Littman, June 4th, probably 1927.
--It also says they met in 1904, in the headline.

[DWilly]

Near the end of the Sourcebook, Nance O'Neil is quoted as saying she and Lizbeth were like ships passing in the night.
(p. 346)
"No letters were exchanged in the nearly quarter of a century which has elapsed since Miss Borden and Miss O'Neil bade each other goodbye.

'I am afraid I am a rather poor correspondent,' said the actress, flicking an ash from her cigarette into a tray of a red Chinese lacquer stand- gorgeous Chinese lacquer and carvings, embroideries and jade dominated the whole room.
'We were like ships that pass in the night and speak each other (sic) in passing.' "
--New Bedford Standard, by Minna Littman, June 4th, probably 1927.
--It also says they met in 1904, in the headline.

I have read this quote from Nance before. The thing is it's difficult to know what to make of the quote. If Lizzie and Nance had a relationship in 1904, it would have been a risky thing to do. Nance, an actress, would have had every reason to down play her relationship with Lizzie. Let's face it, she's not going to tell a reporter "yep, I was in the sack with Lizzie and boy oh boy was she a great lover!" it ain't gonna happen.

In looking at Lizzie Borden what I'm seeing so far are several references to her possibly being a lesbian. There are many others who have seen the same thing so I know I'm not way off on this. I have to say from what little I have seen of a "romantic Lizzie" there is more evidence of her being a lesbian than being heterosexual. By this I mean, her relationship with Nance, Emma leaving, Lizzie's letter to her dressmaker, Alica Morris's autobiography quote talking about Lizzie's "Sapphic dalliances."

I've seen a few posts where posters have vainly attempted to hook Lizzie up with a guy any guy but, the evidence on those alleged relationship are on very thin ice.

Btw, back to my main point. Why does Emma, in 1913, think the relationship is still going on?

[Kashesan]

I agree Dwilly. Its as if it is more palitable to some, even in this day and age, to believe her a murderer than a lesbian. Had Nance been a man, there'd be no doubt about the romance.

[Kat]

My impression has been that if Lizbeth had romantic relationships, she didn't discriminate.
Maybe she learned how to flirt with the chauffeur, but saved her heart for her girlfriend.
I personally do not know. I don't think anyone does.

My post was designed to give someone the source for which they were looking: The Sourcebook.

Since Emma was estranged from Lizbeth for so long before her interview, I doubt Emma knew for sure anything personal like this about her sister's private life, after 1905. I also am inclined to believe that some of the quotes attributed to Emma did not all originate with her. We're dealing with newspapers here.

[1bigsteve]

Just because two women like each other doesn't mean that they are lovers. Lizzie and Nance could have been lovers but they may have been just friends.

As far as what the media says, I wouldn't believe the media if they told me the earth is round. It's a common practice for the press to put their own spin on a situation. How much of what they said about Lizzie is true is anybody's guess. It's really too bad Lizzie didn't write her autobiography. If only ...

-1bigsteve (o:

[DWilly]

Just because two women like each other doesn't mean that they are lovers. Lizzie and Nance could have been lovers but they may have been just friends.

As far as what the media says, I wouldn't believe the media if they told me the earth is round. It's a common practice for the press to put their own spin on a situation. How much of what they said about Lizzie is true is anybody's guess. It's really too bad Lizzie didn't write her autobiography. If only ...

-1bigsteve (o:

I agree. Especially about the press. I didn't say flat out they were lovers. They may have been they may not have been. I don't know for sure. I think and this is only an opinion they may have been. From what little I have seen so far, there's more things that imply she was a lesbian then heterosexual.

Btw, if Lizzie was a lesbian I don't think it had anything to do with the murders per se but, I do think it would have had a strong effect on her emotionally. Lizzie seems to have been a very troubled young women.

[Audrey]

There is nothing wrong with flirting....

I would flirt with a cadaver if given half a chance...

Lizzie may have used flirtation as an outlet for pent up sexual emotions.

[1bigsteve]

There is nothing wrong with flirting....

I would flirt with a cadaver if given half a chance...

Lizzie may have used flirtation as an outlet for pent up sexual emotions.

Flirt with a cadaver, hmmm, yes I'm beginning to see the real you coming out, Audrey. I've been wondering about you and now the light is beginning to shine through, yes...

You may be right about Lizzie's pent-up sexual emotions especialy in that time period. But, Lizzie's friendship with Nance could have been her way to rise above her sorid past. By hob-nobing with a "celebrity" Lizzie may have been trying to gain some "respectability."

If Lizzie did a hatchet job on her folks it may have been for two simple reasons, #1 to gain the money and #2 to stretch her wings and "be somebody." After all she was 32 and time was passing her by. She could probably see herself in a few years like Emma; 40 something, alone, unmarried, broke and "oh my gawd a gray hair!" No doubt Lizzie wanted to see the world and most everything in it.

"The old folks are dead and I'm rich, yesss!! Let's partyyyyy!!! That kind of thing.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Audrey]

Going about with celebrities did not carry the cache it does in certain circles today....

Nance was a definite step down for a Borden-- even a recently acquitted one.

[1bigsteve]

Going about with celebrities did not carry the cache it does in certain circles today....

Nance was a definite step down for a Borden-- even a recently acquitted one.

Perhaps Lizzie found that out too late or maybe she just liked Nance as a friend. I hope it was just that.

-1bigsteve (o:

[DWilly]

You may be right about Lizzie's pent-up sexual emotions especialy in that time period. But, Lizzie's friendship with Nance could have been her way to rise above her sorid past. By hob-nobing with a "celebrity" Lizzie may have been trying to gain some "respectability."
-1bigsteve (o:

It's also possible that Lizzie stopped caring what the small minds of Falls River thought. Lizzie loved going to the theater and it could be she loved/enjoyed both Nance's talent and beauty. Who knows, maybe Nance opened Lizzie up to a whole new world

[DWilly]

There is nothing wrong with flirting....

I would flirt with a cadaver if given half a chance...

Lizzie may have used flirtation as an outlet for pent up sexual emotions.

I agree, nothing wrong with it. Although, thus far I haven't come across any case of Lizzie flirting.

As for the "pent up sexual emotions, " if Lizzie was gay she would have been very pent up back in 1892. Which again, I think may have contributed to her depression and her kleptomania.

[Kashesan]

Agree DWilly, its not easy even today. And I think she was in love with Nance. Who wouldn't be?

kash

[Edisto]

Lizzie may have had Lesbian leanings, but what about Nance? IMHO, with regard to sexual preference, there are people arrayed all over the spectrum. Some (possibly only a few) are 100% hetero, and some (again possibly only a few) are 100% gay. The rest are somewhere in between the two poles. There seems to be quite a bit of evidence that Nance's involvements were usually with men, as I recall. That certainly doesn't mean she might not have been involved with Lizzie, though.

I have read that even serious actresses of the Victorian era would sometimes have themselves photographed in the nude and would present the photographs as gifts to their patrons. That's one reason, I suppose, why theater people (and actresses in particular) were considered less than respectable. I have wondered if Emma didn't leave Maplecroft simply because Lizzie had taken up with a set that Emma considered beneath their social status.

[nbcatlover]

Lizzie was a Yankee with Scottish forebears. Nance had financial woes and probably tried to seduce Lizzie to bail her Tyngsboro house out of debt. Lizzie was probably entralled with the freedom of Nance's life, but money's money. And Nance was not a good investment. Lizzie needed to pick up a foreclosure in Tyngsboro the way she needed another murder in the family.

[DWilly]

I personally don't know off hand if Nance was with more men than women. One thing I do know is prior to at least the 1970's gays made a pretty good attempt at trying to stay hidden. Homosexuality was thought to be immoral and in many cases illegal. Gays would hide by getting married and doing many other things. Which is something that needs to be kept in mind. Just think Oscar Wilde and you'll get my point.

On to Lizzie. So far I'm looking at a women who showed little to no interest in men. I found these two quotes in Rebello on page 231, from Julius Chambers, "Who Killed the Bordens?" Collier's Once A Week, September 10, 1892. Apparently, Chambers went to Fall Rivers to do research on Lizzie and he found this:

" ...and absolutely without any desire for marriage."

" ...after inquiry, she never had a lover and her hand was never asked in marriage."


Ok, so you have a woman who showed no interest in guys and she's throwing money at a woman. Hmmm.

To tie this with the murder, although I agree it wasn't the motive, I do think it played a part in her emotional well-being. Or should I say lack of.

[Audrey]

Wasn't there mention of the time Lizzie being in the hospital that the nurses found her demeanor to be manly?

[snokkums]

I think Lizzie had a relationship with Nance all the way to the end of her life. Personally, I do think Lizzie was a Bi.

[DWilly]

Wasn't there mention of the time Lizzie being in the hospital that the nurses found her demeanor to be manly?

In the Rebello book that is mentioned. My own opinion is that I think a few people judged her not on her looks or personality but, rather the murders. They convinced themselves that if Lizzie did the murder then she had to be masculine.

Everyone had their own view of her. This is from Rebello on page 321, it's from an article by Minna Littmann called, "Nance O'Neil Recalls Lizzie Borden as Bearer of Devout Sorrow."

" She [Nance O'Neil] found the reserved little gentlewoman [Lizzie], with her gray eyes and graying hair and her unmistakable air of refinement and intellect, distinctly attractive. She was exceedingly well read, conversant with the best literature, and spoke interestingly of her travels abroad, which Miss O'Neil recalled as extensive..."


Now, Lizzie may have been a bit of a "Tomboy" in a way. She did love to fish and as I recall she was the one who said she'd use an axe to chop wood when the women were going to Marion and couldn't find a man to do it. So, yeah, maybe a bit boyish but I don't think she was as masculine as the nurses found her. And I don't think Nance saw her that way either.

[Bob Gutowski]

Audrey - a cadaver! Thank god! I thought you'd written "cabdriver!"

[snokkums]

I never looked at it as maybe she was just a tomboy.

[Kat]

Wasn't there mention of the time Lizzie being in the hospital that the nurses found her demeanor to be manly?

In the Rebello book that is mentioned. My own opinion is that I think a few people judged her not on her looks or personality but, rather the murders. They convinced themselves that if Lizzie did the murder then she had to be masculine.

Everyone had their own view of her. This is from Rebello on page 321, it's from an article by Minna Littmann called, "Nance O'Neil Recalls Lizzie Borden as Bearer of Devout Sorrow."

" She [Nance O'Neil] found the reserved little gentlewoman [Lizzie], with her gray eyes and graying hair and her unmistakable air of refinement and intellect, distinctly attractive. She was exceedingly well read, conversant with the best literature, and spoke interestingly of her travels abroad, which Miss O'Neil recalled as extensive..."

I had previously quoted this same article:

Kat @ Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:42 am wrote:
Near the end of the Sourcebook, Nance O'Neil is quoted as saying she and Lizbeth were like ships passing in the night.
(p. 346)
"No letters were exchanged in the nearly quarter of a century which has elapsed since Miss Borden and Miss O'Neil bade each other goodbye.

'I am afraid I am a rather poor correspondent,' said the actress, flicking an ash from her cigarette into a tray of a red Chinese lacquer stand- gorgeous Chinese lacquer and carvings, embroideries and jade dominated the whole room.
'We were like ships that pass in the night and speak each other (sic) in passing.' "
--New Bedford Standard, by Minna Littman, June 4th, probably 1927.
--It also says they met in 1904, in the headline.

[DWilly]

Wasn't there mention of the time Lizzie being in the hospital that the nurses found her demeanor to be manly?

In the Rebello book that is mentioned. My own opinion is that I think a few people judged her not on her looks or personality but, rather the murders. They convinced themselves that if Lizzie did the murder then she had to be masculine.

Everyone had their own view of her. This is from Rebello on page 321, it's from an article by Minna Littmann called, "Nance O'Neil Recalls Lizzie Borden as Bearer of Devout Sorrow."

" She [Nance O'Neil] found the reserved little gentlewoman [Lizzie], with her gray eyes and graying hair and her unmistakable air of refinement and intellect, distinctly attractive. She was exceedingly well read, conversant with the best literature, and spoke interestingly of her travels abroad, which Miss O'Neil recalled as extensive..."

I had previously quoted this same article:

Kat @ Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:42 am wrote:
Near the end of the Sourcebook, Nance O'Neil is quoted as saying she and Lizbeth were like ships passing in the night.
(p. 346)
"No letters were exchanged in the nearly quarter of a century which has elapsed since Miss Borden and Miss O'Neil bade each other goodbye.

'I am afraid I am a rather poor correspondent,' said the actress, flicking an ash from her cigarette into a tray of a red Chinese lacquer stand- gorgeous Chinese lacquer and carvings, embroideries and jade dominated the whole room.
'We were like ships that pass in the night and speak each other (sic) in passing.' "
--New Bedford Standard, by Minna Littman, June 4th, probably 1927.
--It also says they met in 1904, in the headline.

Yes, I see but that quote from Nance doesn't tell us anything for sure. If Nance was romantically involved with Lizzie she's going to deny it and/or down play the relationship. That is what gays and lesbians did back then. The lied, they hid etc. They had to. That's why when you suspect someone may have been gay you have to take a very close look at their life and what was going on. In other words ask a few questions. Such as:

Was Lizzie ever married? No

Any boyfriend? No

Have to be careful with these two questions since sometimes gays and lesbians did marry just to hide. Case in point: Oscar Wilde, Cole Porter, Billie Jean King etc.

Did Lizzie show much interest in men? Not that I've seen so far but I'm not a hundred percent sure.

Were there rumors about Lizzie being a lesbian? Yes, even Lincoln mentions them.

Did Lizzie seem to want to be with women more than men? To me it seems that way so far.

Anyway, these are just a few things.

[theebmonique]

So.......an umarried, non-dating female should be thought of as possibly being a lesbian because of her marital/dating status ?


Tracy...

[DWilly]

So.......an umarried, non-dating female should be thought of as possibly being a lesbian because of her marital/dating status ?


Tracy...

Personally speaking I would say no. That's not enough and if you look back at my post I made it clear it was several things not just one. However, I do have to say that simple reasoning is more than what most people use to declare someone a heterosexual. There are those who believe Lizzie is heterosexual and they base it on nothing more than they always assume people are straight and you have to Prove their gay. You normally don't have to show anything to say someone's straight. Just look at how many people right away went for the David Anthony story and didn't first ask themselves, "Hey, is Lizzie even straight?" Nope, they just took it for granted.

[theebmonique]

I guess I just got the impression from your posts that it was your opinion. Maybe I am misreading your intended meaning.

Personally, I do not take much stock in what Lincoln says. I am wondering though how do we know that many people 'went' for the David Anthony story right away ? Should we do one of those poll thing here in the Forum ?


Tracy...

[Kat]

I must be misreading this too.
I only re-posted my transcription (partial) from Minna Littman to show we were both talking about the same article and that if you believe part, then you probably believe most of it.
Meaning, it's hard to pick and choose out of an article, not just taking what one wants to support their argument.

I don't know any members here but a minority who believe in the David Anthony story. Very few, actually- but they are earnest about it and it's a worthwhile thing to study because there was a lot written on the subject. Quite an interesting investigation actually.

I also don't think many take Lizzie's sexuality for granted.

Wasn't it stated that it didn't matter in a scheme of murder other than to possibly be a source of repression and frustation in the individual?
Well, whoever killed the Bordens were probably repressed and frustrated no matter what sex they were, or what proclivity. That's what leads to violence, anyway- when there is no longer a socially acceptable way to communicate- when all roads to communication have broken down.

The Topic is "To Spite Emma"- maybe I'm missing the point?

[Kat]

BTW: Nance was a very busy career woman who traveled the world- by ship- which is Slow... She was pretty far away from Lizbeth after 1905, I believe...geographically.
The article piece I posted has Nance saying she is a poor correspondent. So I just don't think these two kept in touch much after c. 1905.
Also Cynthia has a point about how much Nance may have cost Lizbeth- money-wise. I think it was an asute observation.

[theebmonique]

Oh yes, it is very astute, no doubt on that one.


Tracy...

[DWilly]

Meaning, it's hard to pick and choose out of an article, not just taking what one wants to support their argument.

The Topic is "To Spite Emma"- maybe I'm missing the point?

For the most part I agree with you. However, you do have to consider that if Lizzie and Nance had a relationship than it's more than possible that both women are going to lie about it or down play it. In my opinion you can still believe most of the article but you can question how honest Nance was being in regard to Lizzie. Do you really think back in 1913, Nance is going to talk openly about Lizzie? If there were rumors going around then Nance would want them to go away. She'd keep quiet.

As for "To Spite Emma" it started off with the fact that I was surprised to read that Emma still thought of them as "close friends" as late as she did. I couldn't help but wonder if in fact they still were and just keeping things on the low or if Lizzie didn't want Emma to know that Nance and she had split and so, just to spite her told her they were still close.

[Kat]

Oh. Thanks for explaining.

The article which came out the week previous to Emma's interview claims that once Nance found out who Lizzie really was , the actress dropped her.
That's a kick in the pants to a Borden to have something like that published!
That has led me to believe that either the reporter Maguire threw that in (that Emma commented on Nance and Lizzie), or Emma said it in response that something like that would not happen to Lizzie Borden, claiming her sister and Nance were still friends.
I suppose there might have been some bit of keeping in touch- I don't think it's impossible.
I also don't think that from Nance's end, knowing Lizzie would hurt her career. Any fame is still fame.

[DWilly]

BTW: Nance was a very busy career woman who traveled the world- by ship- which is Slow... She was pretty far away from Lizbeth after 1905, I believe...geographically.
The article piece I posted has Nance saying she is a poor correspondent. So I just don't think these two kept in touch much after c. 1905.
Also Cynthia has a point about how much Nance may have cost Lizbeth- money-wise. I think it was an asute observation.

I did a bit of checking and I found out that Nance was playing in New York in Sept. 1913, in "The Second Ash Tray." One writer described it as a "Gruesome variation of the triangle theme." NYT Sept. 16, 1913, pg. 11

I also found out she was in New York again in 1924, in "Madre."NYT Jan. 13, 1924 pg X2. And in Sept. 1908, Nance was in Lowell, Mass. Playing in "Agnes." NYT Sept. 26, 1908, pg 7.


Now of course that doesn't mean they were still seeing each other but it is possible. Lizzie like to go to New York and attend the theater. So, maybe Emma knew more than we thought.

[Kat]

Oh Emma had to know somewhat was Lizbeth was up to. I bet at least her friends kept her apprised, or even Mr. Cook. They did continue to have land transactions, probably thru Cook.

Thanks for looking that up!

(I have a really cool article about Nance in Hawaii which she supposedly wrote herself- 1899. And she was in Cairo 1902- all previous to meeting Lizbeth). When was her Australian tour?