Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I was in the crime library on this site and I was reading the article, "History of the Crimes". After reading this, I am beginning to believe that lizzie did it.

Nineteen times she flailed away in fury at the older woman, giving vent to a long surpressed hatred, hacking out a five inch hole in the skull and chopping much of the head to ribbons".

This doesn't sound like a woman that really likes her stepmother, let alone love her. She also told her father when he came home that Abbey had gone out after receiving a note to call out a sick friend. The note was never found, nor does any body remembers writing the note, noone remembers it being delievered and noone remembers abbey going out to visit them because of the note.

It also seeems that everyone was excitingly moving about the house after the murders, but she was very calm, even correcting a policeman when he called abbey her mother, she said she's my stepmother.

She visited a friend and during the course of a strange converstion, dolefully predicted that something strange soon would happen at thier home, a prediction which was filled with remarkable speed."
Makes me wander if she hadn't already planned the murders. Also the doors were locked when Mr. Bordon came home, and the maid had unbolt the front door to let in MR. Bordon. Also Lizzie tried to get Bridget to go into town telling her that there was some cheap cotton on sell, but she went to her third story room.

The motive would have been

a long smoldering feud between her step mother over fathers' fortune, and Lizzie feared that he was rewriting his will against her.

Seems like everything in this particular article is pointing right to Lizzie

Lizzie seems to have said or did things that point the finger in her direction. Don't forget the burning of that dress and the lack of foot prints in the barn's loft. Lizzie seem's to have changed her story as time went on. Maybe she did that on purpose to direct the heat at herself instead of the real killer, like maybe Emma? Thin but who knows.

-1bigsteve (o:

Yes, I think that might be it too. I just don't think Lizzie is as innocent as people may want her to be. And I diffently think that Emma had something to do with it too. Don't think she so innocent, either. IN any case, if Andrew would have lived long enough to change his will, both Emma and Lizzie would have lost out to a woman they didn't care for.

Yes its true that she Acquitted of the muders however I think theres enough circumstantial evidence that she did it. a local pharmacist and another person claimed that Lizzie attempted to purchase a poison, prussic acid from him a day before the murder Lizzie offcourse denied this.her friend, Alice Russell, who testified that Lizzie burned a stained dress three days after the murders. But the most damning evidence came at the trial, when medical experts appeared to prove that Abby Borden was killed approximately an hour and a half before her husband — making it look like the Killer was more likely to have been a member of the household than an outsider.When Bridget Sullivan came back inside after having finished washing outside windows, around 10:30 A.M., she reported hearing a muffled laugh coming from upstairs. She thought that it was Lizzie making the noise. (Lizzie, of course, denied being upstairs during this time period between her mother's murder and her father's murder.) most people in Fall River think she did it, why. because she didn't like her step mother at all and her father probably would have told police if he was alive the tension between them and I think money played a role too.

JMHO

Caeser,
I think that you are right, the money was invovled, and the intense hatred she had against her step mom. And if Andrew was alive, he would have had to testify against his daughter about the tension in the house. But Emma could have known about it too. She was too peachy with Abby herself.

No matter how we cut the pie it always seems to come back to Lizzie either doing it or cooperating with the killer. I've said this before but the shallow wounds indicate to me that the killer was most likely a woman. Lizzie? Emma?

-1bigsteve (o:

I thought I had posted on this board but I must have goofed up because I don't see my post. Oh, well at the risk of double posting here's my opinion:

I think Lizzie did it too. However, thinking she did it and proving it to a jury "beyond a reasonable doubt" is another thing. Eli Bence's ID of Lizzie I thought was very prejudicial. No line up just take him to the murder scene and point out Lizzie to him. As for Alice, well, she didn't see any blood on the dress and it could very well be all Lizzie was doing was burning a dress with paint on it. Only doing it at a very bad time. I also think that even today Lizzie's inquest testimony would either be tossed out or easily attacked. I can just picture little Leslie Abramson getting in there and ripping things apart. Pointing out how Dr. Bowen had the poor woman so drugged up she was too loopy to answer questions.

snokkums @ Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:13 am wrote:I was in the crime library on this site and I was reading the article, "History of the Crimes". After reading this, I am beginning to believe that lizzie did it.

Nineteen times she flailed away in fury at the older woman, giving vent to a long surpressed hatred, hacking out a five inch hole in the skull and chopping much of the head to ribbons".

This doesn't sound like a woman that really likes her stepmother, let alone love her. She also told her father when he came home that Abbey had gone out after receiving a note to call out a sick friend. The note was never found, nor does any body remembers writing the note, noone remembers it being delievered and noone remembers abbey going out to visit them because of the note.

It also seeems that everyone was excitingly moving about the house after the murders, but she was very calm, even correcting a policeman when he called abbey her mother, she said she's my stepmother.

She visited a friend and during the course of a strange converstion, dolefully predicted that something strange soon would happen at thier home, a prediction which was filled with remarkable speed."
Makes me wander if she hadn't already planned the murders. Also the doors were locked when Mr. Bordon came home, and the maid had unbolt the front door to let in MR. Bordon. Also Lizzie tried to get Bridget to go into town telling her that there was some cheap cotton on sell, but she went to her third story room.

The motive would have been

a long smoldering feud between her step mother over fathers' fortune, and Lizzie feared that he was rewriting his will against her.

Seems like everything in this particular article is pointing right to Lizzie

First, let's clean up these quotes. I'm unsure of what this post means so it might be a combination of website quote and snokkums. That would be a bit unfair to snokkums And Radin.
Here is the first sentence posted by snokkums from the website, Crime Library:

"Nineteen times she flailed away in fury at the older woman, giving vent to long-suppressed hatred, hacking out a five-inch hole in the skull and chopping much of the head to ribbons."

This quote is from:
"History of the Crimes"
"Edited from Edward Radin. Lizzie Borden: The Untold Story. NY: Simon & Schuster, 1961."
At
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/CrimeLibrary.htm

I believe the next sentences are skokkums opinions:
"This doesn't sound like a woman that really likes her stepmother, let alone love her. She also told her father when he came home that Abbey had gone out after receiving a note to call out a sick friend. The note was never found, nor does any body remembers writing the note, noone remembers it being delievered and noone remembers abbey going out to visit them because of the note.

It also seeems that everyone was excitingly moving about the house after the murders, but she was very calm, even correcting a policeman when he called abbey her mother, she said she's my stepmother."
--We must admit it doesn't sound like Mr. Radin.

"That same night she visited a friend and, during the course of a strange conversation, dolefully predicted that "something" soon would happen at their home, a prediction which was fulfilled with remarkable speed."

--This is a quote which is Radin from the site but which is truncated in the post, leaving out the first words of the beginning of the sentence: "That same night..."
Then, included in the Radin quote is snokkums opinion:
"Makes me wander if she hadn't already planned the murders. Also the doors were locked when Mr. Bordon came home, and the maid had unbolt the front door to let in MR. Bordon. Also Lizzie tried to get Bridget to go into town telling her that there was some cheap cotton on sell, but she went to her third story room."--which sounds like snokkums. Next is a quote from Radin:

"...a long smoldering feud with her stepmother over her father's fortune and Lizzie feared that he was rewriting his will against her."

Then, snokkums:
"Seems like everything in this particular article is pointing right to Lizzie "

Whew- this was an autopsy. I did suggest snokkums go to mine the website and/or the archives instead of going on the internet. I'm sorry the quote feature is so confusing, snokkums. If I have misquoted you, please let me know.

snokkums @ Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:13 pm wrote:Yes, I think that might be it too. I just don't think Lizzie is as innocent as people may want her to be. And I diffently think that Emma had something to do with it too. Don't think she so innocent, either. IN any case, if Andrew would have lived long enough to change his will, both Emma and Lizzie would have lost out to a woman they didn't care for.

I thought any will of Andrew would only give Abby use of monies up to $5000 and use of property within her own lifetime? And if she is dead she can't inherit, and if she has no will, her personal possessions cannot go to her family either.
If she had brought a substantial amount of property to the marriage, then the disposition of it would be something the girls might worry about. But since she didn't have a lot, nor brought a lot to the marriage as property, and since she died first, a will made by Andrew in her favor, or her will, itself, would not make much of a difference.
Also, would Andrew want Abby's family to inherit over his own daughters?
That doesn't make sense.

Kat @ Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:44 pm wrote:

snokkums @ Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:13 pm wrote:Yes, I think that might be it too. I just don't think Lizzie is as innocent as people may want her to be. And I diffently think that Emma had something to do with it too. Don't think she so innocent, either. IN any case, if Andrew would have lived long enough to change his will, both Emma and Lizzie would have lost out to a woman they didn't care for.

I thought any will of Andrew would only give Abby use of monies up to $5000 and use of property within her own lifetime? And if she is dead she can't inherit, and if she has no will, her personal possessions cannot go to her family either.
If she had brought a substantial amount of property to the marriage, then the disposition of it would be something the girls might worry about. But since she didn't have a lot, nor brought a lot to the marriage as property, and since she died first, a will made by Andrew in her favor, or her will, itself, would not make much of a difference.
Also, would Andrew want Abby's family to inherit over his own daughters?
That doesn't make sense to me.

To whom would this dangerous will benefit- since there was none found- if one had existed shortly before the murders- in whose favor do people think it would be?

Kat
You didn't misquote me. I just haven't figured out how to use the quote button yet.

snokkums @ Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:33 am wrote:Kat
You didn't misquote me. I just haven't figured out how to use the quote button yet.

You too, Snokkums? I thought I was the only one who dosen't know how to use the bloody quote buttons. I can never get the quotes around the sections I want to quote. So I end up not quoting. But then I'm, quote, "computer stupid", unquote. I must have been one of the few people born without computer instructions imprinted in my brain.

I remember my third grade teacher teaching us students multiplication. She taught us how to multiply using whole numbers like 984 x 392. On test day she threw in a bunch of zeros like 4007 x 6009. She hadn't taught us how to deal with those zeros and boy did she blow up at us! We all got the ultimate hatchet job that day. Lizzie had nothing on this woman. I love it when the teacher say's: "Oh, don't worry about getting it wrong. Just do the best you can." When you get it wrong she jumps all over you for being an idiot and gives you an "F."

School. Wasn't it wonderful?

-1bigsteve (o:

If you guys can copy-paste you are better off.

Then you can copy, and paste it here and just put regular quote marks around it like this, and attribute it:

"You too, Snokkums? I thought I was the only one who dosen't know how to use the bloody quote buttons."--bigSteve

OR

If you are quoting from a post already here:
You can copy-paste and put [quote] in front of the sentence, and [/quote} after.
(I made a capital bracket there at the last so you can see the brackets. If I used regular brackets, the tag would not show). That will automatically put the quote into white. Then you can identify after who wrote it. (Like --bigSteve )

I think you guys know copy-paste or you snokkums could not have brought Radin's Crime Library synopsis over here.

If you want to quote a whole post, just click on Quote of the post you are referring to- it's in the upper right corner. That will bring the whole quote to your screen you are replying on- you won't have to do anything else.

Thanks for answering, snokkums.

You are welcome. Maybe I do know how to use it but don't know I am doing it, that makes any sense.

Yes that makes sense. Just a suggestion, but you can "Preview" your post before you submit it and if it doesn't look like you want it to, you can still change it or fix it.

Looks like I double-posted- I don't know how I did that?!

thanks for the suggestion. I will do that. Just need to look at it before I submit the post.