Emma as "Mother"?

[DWilly]

Does anyone really think that Emma could have been anything like a real mother to Lizzie? Emma was only a kid herself when her mother died and she was at an age when girls are still rather immature and self-centered. Later in life Emma seemed so emotionally dead. I'm reading Spiering's book and on page, 215, Emma talks about how she promised her mother she'd "watch over baby Lizzie" but it seems more like an obligation and duty she was carrying out than real love for Lizzie. I can't imagine Emma giving little Lizzie physical affection.

[Susan]

When Sarah Borden died the Bordens were still living in the Ferry Street house with Lizzie's grandfather and stepgrandmother, Uncle Hiram and Aunt Lurana and one or two servants. So, there were at least two adult women in the household that Lizzie was familiar with and could go to for mothering and affection. But, once Andrew married Abby and moved the family to 92 Second Street, yes, I can see Emma stepping into the role.

I would imagine before the move, Emma may have been in charge of getting Lizzie dressed and putting her to bed and such, that may have forged a strong bond between the sisters early on. When Abby came along, Emma may have jealously guarded this bond viewing Abby as an interloper and made sure Lizzie came to her for certain types of care. To Lizzie, Emma would have been safe and sure and reliable, with Abby it was the unknown. So, I could see both sisters adding their bits to further Emma along in the role of the "little mother" to Lizzie.

[Kat]

I wonder if either girl ever had even a quick passing fancy for Abby's newborn 1/2 niece or nephew?
If they either of them liked kiddies, or babysat or whatever- and maybe got turned off to babies or children after that experience?
Wouldn't it be natural for them to at least be curious about the first Whitehead baby and hang around it?
One of them could have then forged a bond with Abby over a shared attraction to the child.

[Allen]

I wonder if either girl ever had even a quick passing fancy for Abby's newborn 1/2 niece or nephew?
If they either of them liked kiddies, or babysat or whatever- and maybe got turned off to babies or children after that experience?
Wouldn't it be natural for them to at least be curious about the first Whitehead baby and hang around it?
One of them could have then forged a bond with Abby over a shared attraction to the child.

I don't think Lizzie and Emma were close enough to Abby or her family. Emma and Lizzie referred to the Whiteheads somewhere as 'those people'. I am not sure where I read it, either some kind of document, the newspapers, I'm not sure but I'll try and find it. That sounds very impersonal. Like something you would say about strangers. Ones you don't particularly like. It reminded me of how Emma called Andrew and Abby 'my father and his wife.'

[Kat]

If we check the dates we find that lil Abby was born in 1884, and Lizzie was 24. I think a new baby might interest her for a bit. I wouldn't discount it. The argument over property hadn't happened yet. Lizzie joined the CCC in 1885 and little George Whitehead was born in March 1887- also before the house deed problem. (That was in May, 1887).

In 1882 the girl's grandfather died and in 1883 their step-grandmother died.
Regardless of when Lizzie got so hotsey-totsey about the Whiteheads, I'd think at her age there would be a natural curiosity over a baby in the family- maybe especally a boy baby, when Lizzie was 27.

Anyway, if you check Mrs. Whitehead's testimony in the inquest it might be there about how Lizzie and Emma treated her.

[DWilly]

I wonder if either girl ever had even a quick passing fancy for Abby's newborn 1/2 niece or nephew?
If they either of them liked kiddies, or babysat or whatever- and maybe got turned off to babies or children after that experience?
Wouldn't it be natural for them to at least be curious about the first Whitehead baby and hang around it?
One of them could have then forged a bond with Abby over a shared attraction to the child.

I think that both Emma and Lizzie liked children. In Emma's will shown in Rebello, page 344-345, she left money for the Girl Scouts, YMCA, The Boys Club of Fall Rivers and the Massachusetts Society For The Prevention Of Cruelty To Children. Lizzie left some money to the daughter of her chauffeur Ernest Terry. Thing is I don't know how old the daughter was. Lizzie, as we know, taught some Chinese boys at Sunday School. Seems she had some problems handling the boys and was switched to having a class of girls. Thats on page 12 of Rebello. So, she did seem to like working with children.

[Edisto]

I was quite startled to see that Lizzie had joined the CCC. I was a "depression baby," and for my generation, CCC means "Civilian Conservation Corps." That was an early scheme to get unemployed young men off the streets and into some kind of meaningful labor and job training. There are many men still alive who went into the CCC during those bleak days before the New Deal took hold. I thought, "Gee, maybe that's where Lizzie learned to wield an axe." (Yeah, I know, you meant "Central Congregational Church.")

[Nancie]

I like your postscript Allen, that is how I am feeling
in my older years, get rid of all the crap. as for Lizzie and Emma, of course they were close, a huge
bond there, how could anyone think otherwise?

[Kat]

Then does it seem a question of liking other people's children, just not Whitehead children? That's what I'm getting at, DWilly. If Lizzie liked children, why not become interested in the newest baby in her stepmother's family?
I suppose she could be jealous, on different levels.

I've said it before and I'll say it again (because it might fit in this situation): Charity begins at home.

How do we reconcile Lizbeth's supposed gifts to the little boy on first day of school? Teaching Chinese children? Letting Russel Lake use her French Street yard as refuge from bullies? Chuckling and giving tacit approval to boys taking pears from her yard on Second Street?
What about time for lil Abby and Georgie?

[snokkums]

I think both Emma and Lizzie were self-centered. I think it was all about them, or so they thought, and were willing to protect that idea. So I don't thing either one of them were to concerned about a niece or nephew of Abbey's.

[Allen]

How do we reconcile Lizbeth's supposed gifts to the little boy on first day of school? Teaching Chinese children? Letting Russel Lake use her French Street yard as refuge from bullies? Chuckling and giving tacit approval to boys taking pears from her yard on Second Street?
What about time for lil Abby and Georgie?

I think Lizzie was nice to children only when it suited her, when she didn't feel threatened by it, or to put herself in a better light. In other words, I think everything that Lizzie did was centered on her. She could be nice to children in the neighborhood later on because, in reality, how many adults of the neighborhood wanted anything to do with her? Children are easier to convince than adults, and they didn't understand the workings of a murder trial. I don't know if that's exactly how I want to say it, but I'll let it stand for right now. Even Lizzie had to get lonely.

Teaching Chinese children, IMO, that was to make her look better in the eyes of the Church. She seems to have had some problems with controlling them as well, which implies to me she didn't know how to relate to them if they weren't obeying her and behaving themselves. I keep coming back to that quote from where it was reported she became "disproportionately excited".

As for the Whitehead Children, it doesn't seem to me that they wanted anything at all to do with the Whiteheads. They were Abby's people. Any show of interest in her people would have been seen as a sign of acceptance.

I think she was so gracious to her servants and their children in her will because, in the end, they were some of the few friends she had. Also, look at some of the land she left to them. Oh, how that had to gall the neighbors! Was it a final way of getting back at them maybe?

[Allen]

Also, a way to reconcile the "two Lizzie's" may be to look at her life before and after the murders. Before the murders, she was thought to be a bit strange, a bit overbearing and temperatmental, but people tolerated her. She had some close friends, and I'm sure she associated with the people at the Church and and the CCC and the other organizations she belonged to quite often.This gave her a way of fitting in and becoming a social figure in the community. After the murders, she was ostracized. Everybody dropped her. Fall River parted like the Red Sea when they saw her coming.

[DWilly]

Then does it seem a question of liking other people's children, just not Whitehead children? That's what I'm getting at, DWilly. If Lizzie liked children, why not become interested in the newest baby in her stepmother's family?
I suppose she could be jealous, on different levels.

I've said it before and I'll say it again (because it might fit in this situation): Charity begins at home.

How do we reconcile Lizbeth's supposed gifts to the little boy on first day of school? Teaching Chinese children? Letting Russel Lake use her French Street yard as refuge from bullies? Chuckling and giving tacit approval to boys taking pears from her yard on Second Street?
What about time for lil Abby and Georgie?

I don't think Lizzie viewed Abby or her relatives as being a part of her family.

[Susan]

How do we reconcile Lizbeth's supposed gifts to the little boy on first day of school? Teaching Chinese children? Letting Russel Lake use her French Street yard as refuge from bullies? Chuckling and giving tacit approval to boys taking pears from her yard on Second Street?
What about time for lil Abby and Georgie?

Interesting, I was just reading about the boys and the pears in Radin, I love it because it gives you more of a view of Lizzie as a person instead of a legend. For those of you who don't have Radin, heres the pear story:

Lizzie Borden: The Untold Story by Edward D. Radin pg. 40:

"She was friendly and had a wonderful sense of humor," said James J. Kirby. "I was attending St. Mary's School on the same block and the Bordens had a small pear orchard longside the house and around the back. You know how young boys are; they haven't got stomachs, they've got bottomless pits. Fresh fruit was a treat for us. Our folks didn't have much money, and we looked at those trees and got desperate for pears. Five or six of us hung around together and I was the ringleader. Mr. Borden had a reputation of being a mean skinflint and the place was all fenced in. One day I got up my courage, opened the gate and knocked on the side door, while my scared friends waited safely out on the street.
"Lizzie answered and I managed to get out my request. She told me that my friends could come in and that we could pick the fruit that had fallen to the ground, but said we must not climb the trees. We were small kids then and I suppose she was afraid we might fall and hurt ourselves. We soon found a way to beat that. We would sneak into the yard, shake a big pile of pears off the trees and then I would knock and ask for permission. I'll never forget the first time we did it. Lizzie gave a start when she saw the big mound of pears on the ground; it would have taken a full-sized hurricane to blow off that many. She caught on immediately. Her eyes danced, her lips quirked up, and you could see she wanted to laugh out loud. After that it became a game. I know she watched us through the window shaking the trees first, but she always went through the same act, telling us not to climb the trees but to pick only what was on the ground. At the same time she gave me a merry look that let me know we weren't fooling her, but she never spoiled the game for us by telling us outright that she knew. It made the pears taste even better to us and she must have realized it.
"This went on for several years, almost up to the day of the murders. I was twelve then. We went there at least twice a week, sometimes more, but she never acted as if we pests or said a cross or angry word to us. The only times she turned us down were when we came around too early in the season and then she always explained why. 'No, they're not ripe,' she would say and you could tell from the tone of her voice that she really was sorry. Mostly it was Lizzie who came to the door. Emma came once or twice but Mrs. Borden never did. If the maid answered she always grumbled and would ask somebody inside. If Lizzie was home we got permission, otherwise not too often.
"A few times when we made too much noise in the yard Mr. Borden came out yelling and we got out of there fast. The next time we showed up, Lizzie would suggest that we be quiet, but she never scolded us. You can tell when a person comes to the door whether they are friendly or stiff. Lizzie didn't say much to us but her attitude always made us feel welcome. I saw her out on the street quite often before the murders. She seemed to know plenty of people. Some would stop and talk to her on the street and others would call out greeetings. mrs. Borden went out occasionally but Emma didn't circulate much."


As to why she was charitable to children of other people but not to members of her family is hard to reconcile. Was her grudge against Abby so strong that she would deny the children of her family this delightful side of herself? Seems such a shame, such a waste.

[1bigsteve]

Thank you, Susan.

I just started reading Radin's book last night and I alway's liked that story about the pears. It put a human face on Lizzie and a heart in her chest.

I just have a real hard time believing that Lizzie was stone cold.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Kat]

Thanks Susan. That's more than I remembered!

In William's Casebook there is Russell Lake, 264:
"She made a big hit with me by being my best customer when I had a lemonade stand. Later on, when I left for boarding school, she gave me my first fifty cents. I was one of the privileged children who could run through her yard and climb over the stone wall to get away from the neighborhood bully. I could duck in the kitchen or the hostler would see that no harm came to me. Most other children reflected their parents' views and treated Miss Borden and her house like she was a witch or some person to fear and the house was haunted or a place to keep away from."

[Susan]

You're both welcome. I wonder if James Kirby was related to Aruba Kirby, or was that a common name in Fall River? Interesting how these stories all involve young boys who benefitted from Lizzie's kindness. I have to wonder if they didn't all have some sort of crush on her or something? I do recall a story from a girl, though it didn't have to do with Lizzie doing something nice for her, it was more along the lines of the pennypinching that went on in the Borden house. The woman stated when she was a girl she would go over to the Borden's to wait on the horsehair sofa for Lizzie to go to church with. She stated that sometimes Bridget would bring her milk and cookies, though not often, as there never seemed to be extra in the house. And something about how Lizzie's gloves were more mends than gloves. Don't recall which book that was in though?

[diana]

You have a good memory, Susan!

Ray could probably have helped out here on the old forum.

From Arnold Brown:
"Mrs. Marion D. Sherman of Westport, Massachusetts, said, 'my mother, who passed away several years ago at the age of 104, was a friend of Lizzie Borden. Lizzie was her Sunday school teacher and my mother used to go to the Borden house every Sunday morning and they would walk to church together. My mother told me she arrived early and went into the hall and waited on the haircloth sofa where one of the murders took place. Once in a while Bridget would bring a little milk and a cookie, but there apparently was no surplus of food (or anything else) in the house.
My mother told me Lizzie was treated mean by her stepmother. Her clothes were shabby and her gloves (Mother's words) were more "mends" than gloves.' (pp.30,31)

[DWilly]

You have a good memory, Susan!

Ray could probably have helped out here on the old forum.

From Arnold Brown:
"Mrs. Marion D. Sherman of Westport, Massachusetts, said, 'my mother, who passed away several years ago at the age of 104, was a friend of Lizzie Borden. Lizzie was her Sunday school teacher and my mother used to go to the Borden house every Sunday morning and they would walk to church together. My mother told me she arrived early and went into the hall and waited on the haircloth sofa where one of the murders took place. Once in a while Bridget would bring a little milk and a cookie, but there apparently was no surplus of food (or anything else) in the house.
My mother told me Lizzie was treated mean by her stepmother. Her clothes were shabby and her gloves (Mother's words) were more "mends" than gloves.' (pp.30,31)

After reading the stories about the pears and then this it does start to make more sense. First off, it could be that the reason Lizzie did not show any interest in Abby's side of the family is because she felt Abby showed no interest in her. Second, Lizzie may have gotten a kick out of watching those boys take those pears knowing that it would upset her tight wad of a father.

I also want to add I really don't think every act Lizzie did was simply because she thought it would make her look better to the people of Fall Rivers. Many of the things she did were known only to the kids. Hardly a group she was trying to impress. I think at times she could be kind to others because that's simply what she wanted to do.

[Susan]

Thanks, Diane, great sleuthing! Hmm, from Brown, I wonder how much stock we can take in the story being from him?