Morse's history

[Angel]

Has there ever been an inquiry about Morse and what kind of person he was? I don't think I've ever seen much about his growing up, his associates, his standing in his community, etc. Was he known at all? Did he ever have friends, relationships, etc., or was he known in his town as the local looney, weirdo, child molester, alcoholic, or whatever? Was he a church goer, an introvert or a hermit bachelor? Maybe if we knew more about his personality or quirks we would have more ideas about whether he could have been incestuous with his nieces, jealous of Andrew, vengeful after the death of his sister, or whatever, which, in turn, could have caused him to be involved in the murders somehow.
And, for that matter, was it at all possible that Sarah may not have died a natural death, but may have been a suicide or murder and it was covered up?

[Allen]

According to the information about him in Rebello he was well liked and respected in by the community he lived in. The people who knew him often spoke highly of him. Some of the information found about him in Rebello:

page 70:

Profile: John Vinnicum Morse was born in Fall River, Massachusetts, on July 5, 1833. He was the son of Anthony and Rhody Morrison Morse. He was the brother of Lizzie Borden's mother Sarah Anthony Morse. Mr. Morse learned the butcher's trade. He was employed for two years by Charles and Isaac C. Davis who were in the meat business in South Dartmouth, Massachusetts. At the age of 22 Mr. Morse left Massachusetts, and moved to Excelsior, Minnesota, to reside with his brother William Bradford Morse. He resided there for one year and moved to Illinois where he was engaged in farming for fourteen years. In 1869, he went to Hastings, Iowa, to farm, raise horses and cattle. At this time, John Morse and his brother -in- law John Davidson were renting from Mr. Henry L. Lowry. A notice was given to Morse and Davidson to leave the premises by March 1, 1871. He purchased 40 acres of land in April of 1873 and another 40 acres in August 1873. In 1876, he purchased another 40 acres next to the land he purchased in 1873. His brother-in-law, John Davidson, and husband of Morse's half sister, Arabella (Ararabelle), owned a farm adjacent to Morse's farm.

While in Iowa, John Morse lived or boarded with various people and their families. IN 1870, he resided with the Davidson family. By 1880, the Davidson’s lived with John Morse. On Monday, May 10, 1886, John Morse, along "with Rappal" of Hastings, and John Gennung{Genung} of Hastings, registered at the Foster House, a local hotel in Hastings. "L.L. Rappal" Chicago, [Illinois]" was written under their names in the register. John Morse boarded with Mr. & Mrs. George C. Chapin and their three children in 1900. Mr. VanAusdale moved to Hastings in 1900.

Throughout his life, Morse traveled east during the summer and winter visiting Fall River; New Bedford; Warren, Rhode Island; and Boston. He maintained a small boat in New Bedford, and he visited friends and relatives. While in New Bedford, he would spend time at the marble shop of ex- Mayor Thomas Thompson discussing the existence of life after death. John Morse was fond of fishing and had an interest in having his fortune told. He oftentimes told the story of a gypsy in Hastings who refused to tell his fortune," You don't want it told." It was sometime after this, the Bordens were murdered.

Mr. Morse arrived at the Borden home on Wednesday, August 3, 1892. The next day, his brother-in-law and his wife were found murdered. It was early on in the investigation that John Morse became a suspect. He was able to account for his time the morning of the murders. His niece, Lizzie Borden, was charged with the murders and acquitted in 1893. John Morse testified at the inquest, preliminary hearing and trial of his niece. Ten days after the grand jury indicted Lizzie, John Morse left Fall River and arrived in Hastings on December 12, 1892. He returned to New Bedford to testify at Lizzie's trial. After the trial, he returned to Hastings, Iowa.

Mr. Morse died in Hastings, Iowa, on March, 1, 1912. At the time of his death, Mr. Morse resided with Mr. and Mrs. William Edwin VanAusdale in Hastings, Iowa. They were renting Mr. Morse's farm at the time of his death.

Funeral services were conducted from the Methodist church by Rev. M.A. Gable. Mr. John V. Morse was buried in Hastings Cemetery (Row 23). He was not married. He was survived by his brother, William Bradford Morse of Excelsior, Minnesota, and a half sister, Mrs. Arabella Davidson of Hastings, Iowa. Another sister, Mrs. Louisa A. Morse of Fall River, was deceased.

At the time of his death, John V. Morse's obituary described him as " a shrewd businessman, of even temperament, kindly disposition...his friends are numerous,...lived an honest, upright life...kind and considerate of the welfare of others, gave liberally to those in need...gave without ostentation and oftentimes in ways that the world knew not of."

A very different view of Mr. Morse was reported shortly after the Borden murders in 1892. A Boston Post reporter elicited the following statements from Mr. Morse's neighbors and those who knew him best. They described him as "frugal and self denying...eccentric, peculiar, never formed close relationships, and maintained and austere reserve. He was selfish, hard fisted in his business dealings, almost avaricious but scrupulously honest...” His half sister (Arabella) described Morse as " a man who when crossed, would never forgive, a trait she herself shared."


page 76:

“A horse attached to a buggy belonging to John Oliver, of New Bedford, broke from its owner, Monday [June 19, 1893], and dashed through Russell's Mills and Apponegansett. Several unsuccessful attempts were made to stop its career, but not until it reached the 'Head' did anyone succeed in catching it, which was done by no less a personage than the noted John Vinnicum Morse."
Fall River Weekly News, June 21, 1892:5.


page 77:

"John V. Morse and Amos R. Caswell, a resident of New Bedford, purchased a lot in Fairhaven, Massachusetts, from George H. Howland on October 24, 1906. ( Registry of Deeds, New Bedford, Massachusetts, Book 267 and page 267.)
-----------------------------

"Uncle John Morse continues very poorly at the home of W. E. VanAusdale, and on Friday night, Dr. Bridges, an Omaha specialist, came down town to examine him. Miss Anna Morse, a teacher in the Minneapolis schools, came in Friday to be with her uncle." Mills County Tribune, February, 26, 1912:1.

[Kat]

Goddess! Did you type all that Missy! Wow! That was very nice of you! You must be a good fast typist!

[Angel]

Wow! Thank you. I guess that takes care of that question.

Do you think, if Morse was prone to carrying grudges, that he could have developed some antipathy for Andrew for some reason?

[Allen]

Thanks Kat. I can type pretty fast.

If it is true that Morse could hold grudges, I guess we could ask if Andrew did anything that would make John Morse hold a grudge against him. I can't think of anything right now, but maybe someone else can?

[Kat]

Our Joe was published in the Hatchet, June/July, 2004, Article titled "The Elusive John Morse." Including a family tree!
Pages 12 thru 28. It's a good bit on JVM!

It sounds like Hiram Harrington and Andrew Borden held a grudge against each other for years over a water bill (possibly).
Hmmm...

[RayS]

Has there ever been an inquiry about Morse and what kind of person he was? I don't think I've ever seen much about his growing up, his associates, his standing in his community, etc. Was he known at all? Did he ever have friends, relationships, etc., or was he known in his town as the local looney, weirdo, child molester, alcoholic, or whatever? Was he a church goer, an introvert or a hermit bachelor? Maybe if we knew more about his personality or quirks we would have more ideas about whether he could have been incestuous with his nieces, jealous of Andrew, vengeful after the death of his sister, or whatever, which, in turn, could have caused him to be involved in the murders somehow.
And, for that matter, was it at all possible that Sarah may not have died a natural death, but may have been a suicide or murder and it was covered up?

Those are interesting questions for those who don't know that Uncle John had a perfect alibi around the time of the murders. Brown tells us that a msg was sent from Lizzie to bring back Uncle John.
Uncle John hung around outside to pick up information: how much did the police know or suspect. When he learned what he needed to know, then he went in. IMO
While innocent of the crime, Uncle John knew as well as Lizzie who did it (thanks to Brown's book). I believe he arranged the meeting that was agreed to by Andy per request of Wm. Borden. But I can't prove that either. This is the explanation that makes sense to me.

I'm sure Sarah had an attending physician to certify cause of death (uterine cancer?). Before the 1950s antibiotics, there were loads of people who died of infectious diseases, and those that can be surgically cured today. How soon we forget?

[Kat]

While innocent of the crime, Uncle John knew as well as Lizzie who did it (thanks to Brown's book).

--Ray

Sorry, I had to chuckle!

[nbcatlover]

On the subject of Morse, can someone please help me out here?

Whose book refers to Morse and Andrew Borden as "sporting men" when they were younger? Also, how do you interpret the description of a "sporting man." A gambler was what came to my mind.

Thanks for the assist!

[Harry]

I don't know about Andrew but found this on Uncle John. Page 134, Rebello:

"Julius Chambers, "Who Killed the Bordens?" Collier's Once a Week, vol.. ix, no. 22, Saturday, September 10, 1892: 11-13.
__,"Who Killed the Bordens?" A Cavalcade of Collier's, Kenneth McArdle, ed., New York: A.S. Barnes, Inc., 1959, 1-9."

"Mr. Chambers was a staff writer for the weekly magazine Once a Week. He was in Fall River shortly after the Borden murders and attended the preliminary hearing. The article summarized the events of the Borden murders up until the conclusion of the preliminary hearing. A reenactment of how easy it was to enter and leave the Borden property undetected was conducted and reported by Mr. Chambers. He discovered that he had very little difficulty entering and leaving without being noticed. He provided readers with vivid descriptions of Emma, Lizzie, Bridget, Andrew J. Jennings, and Hosea M. Knowlton. He implied an incestuous relationship was possible between Lizzie and John V. Morse when he wrote:
"It would be a matter of the greatest importance to know all about this poor girl's private life - I say it without any morbid feeling of curiosity, but purely in the interest of justice and of American womanhood. The police have intimated undue familiarity between Lizzie and her uncle, but remembering the character of the girl and her strong religious instincts, I am loath to even consider the subject. As to old man Morse, I confess frankly that I would hate to meet him in a dark alley. He certainly has a very cruel and hardened face, and I think it would be very proper to make serious inquiry regarding his past history in that part of the far West from which he comes. I say this without any prejudice to Mr. Morse, because his alibi is apparently complete. Apropos, the early life of Mr. Borden should be inquired into. I learn that he was quite a 'sporting man' when he lived in Troy twenty-odd years ago and had a curious reputation."

The Fall River Herald interviewed a member of the Borden family (unidentified) who also implied an incestuous relationship between Lizzie and her uncle, John V. Morse."

If I remember correctly it was the Once A Week magazine that offered the $500 reward for the person who delivered the alleged note to Mrs. Borden.

[nbcatlover]

Thanks, Harry--perhaps that is the correct reference. I have a notion, though, about Andrew as well. In my mind, it was tied to visits to the Wattupa area (the Narrows) and the Borden relatives in north Westport.

[Kat]

That's the quote! Thanks Har. It does refer to Andrew Borden though, doesn't it? (Unless they made a misprint and left a word or two out?)
I'd not read anyplace where Morse was considered a *sporting man.*

It's an odd description of Andrew, because in his later life it's claimed that Andrew doesn't hang out where men are used to congregate.

I figured in his early days it's implied Andrew might have been a risk-taker, and if so, his *gambling* on real estate could have been as risky as a day trader in the stock market?

[Harry]

Yes Kat that does refer to Andrew.

I'm afraid my dry eyes need a rest and I'm going to have to stay off the computer a few days. I can barely read what I;m typing.

[RayS]

That's the quote! Thanks Har. It does refer to Andrew Borden though, doesn't it? (Unless they made a misprint and left a word or two out?)
I'd not read anyplace where Morse was considered a *sporting man.*

It's an odd description of Andrew, because in his later life it's claimed that Andrew doesn't hang out where men are used to congregate.

I figured in his early days it's implied Andrew might have been a risk-taker, and if so, his *gambling* on real estate could have been as risky as a day trader in the stock market?

Here is the logical refutation of that 'story'.
1) There is no evidence known to me (?) that Borden ever lived in Troy (NY). Is there?
2) The rumor or speculation seems to come from an Unnamed Source; there is no way that can be checked up. It may sell newspapers, but it is not "news".

My understanding of that term refers to a gambler (can anyone imagine Andy playing poker or craps?); or a gentleman who frequents a "sporting house". Take your pick.

[nbcatlover]

Hi RayS--Troy was the city of Fall River's old name.

Gambling in those days might have been on a fast horse, a cock fight, or a bicycle race. Then there is always a good card game. In the summer, there were bets on yacht races, as well.

[DWilly]

That's the quote! Thanks Har. It does refer to Andrew Borden though, doesn't it? (Unless they made a misprint and left a word or two out?)
I'd not read anyplace where Morse was considered a *sporting man.*

It's an odd description of Andrew, because in his later life it's claimed that Andrew doesn't hang out where men are used to congregate.

I figured in his early days it's implied Andrew might have been a risk-taker, and if so, his *gambling* on real estate could have been as risky as a day trader in the stock market?

I don't know if this helps, but I dug this up on the internet. I put in bold face where it talks about "sporting man."


Sucker’s Progress: An Informal History of Gambling
in America
By Herbert Asbury. (1938/2003). New York: Thunder Mouth Press,
ISBN 1-56025-495-5 (paperback). Price (approx.): $26.50 CND or $15.95 USD.


Reviewed by Nigel Turner, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
E-mail: Nigel_Turner@camh.net


Imagine a comprehensive book on the history of gambling in the United States that never mentions Las Vegas and says very little about slot machines. From our modern perspective such a thing would seem unlikely or incomplete. Sucker’s Progress, by Herbert Asbury (1891-1963), is indeed a comprehensive book on the history of gambling in America. It never mentions Las Vegas, because it covers the period from 1700 to 1910 (approximately), a period of history during which New York, Washington, New Orleans, Cincinnati, Chicago, and San Francisco were the gambling havens, rather than Las Vegas and Atlantic City.


Asbury was a prolific journalist who set out on a mission to document the entire underworld of America. He recently achieved considerable fame because his book, Gangs of New York: An Informal History of the Underworld (variously cited as published 1927 or 1928) became the basis of a major motion picture by the same name. Asbury’s Sucker's Progress is a fascinating and detailed history of gambling in America. This book is particularly interesting because of its age: it was first published in 1938. Anyone who believes that gambling is a recent phenomenon, or that the social consequences of gambling were somehow invented by the electronic gambling machine, ought to read this book. Our modern era does not appear to be the first age of wide-open gambling availability, but merely a replay of earlier eras.

The book is divided into two parts. The chapters of the first part focus on the games that people played. He discusses the origins of several popular games including craps, lottery, poker, policy (a numbers racket) and faro (a card game). Smaller sections are devoted to monte (cards), chuck a luck (dice), keno, three-card-monte, and bunco (cards or dice). The chapters of the second part of the book focus on different regions and time periods, such as the "splendid hells" of New York and other eastern cities, the Mississippi River steam boats, the saloons of the Wild West, and New York City in the 1890s. Throughout the book Asbury gives numerous accounts of the lives of casino owners, card sharpers, and corrupt politicians. Longer vignettes are provided on the careers of people such as Mike Macdonald, who coined the phrase, "There is a sucker born every minute"; John Morrissey, a pioneer of boxing in America, who went on to built a casino and raceway at Saratoga Springs; and Richard Canfield, who dominated the New York gambling scene in the 1890s. Each section roughly follows a chronological order, except for specific vignettes about historical characters.

Asbury makes numerous mentions of the social evil of gambling, such as the exploitation of the poor. In 1834, Philip Hone in his diary described the lottery "the most ruinous and disgraceful system of gambling to which our citizens have been exposed" (as cited by Asbury, 1938, p. 86). In addition, referring to the Louisiana Lottery, Asbury writes, "Throughout its existence, the Lottery aroused great opposition in Louisiana, partly because of its pernicious effects upon the poor, and partly because of the flagrant misuse of the great political power it possessed" (p. 86). It seems that some things do not change.

Professional gamblers, suckers, and other slang terms
The focus of the book is not on the pathology of gambling, but on the cheats that preyed upon the unsuspecting ordinary game player. In the book the terms "gambler" and "professional gambler" refer to people who made their living running games of chance such as faro or operating casinos. These gamblers often did not play the game; they "banked" the game. That is, they ran the game in much the same way that a casino runs a game of blackjack today. According to Asbury, most of these "gamblers" ran their games in a manner intended to cheat the players out of their money as fast as possible; however, some dealt "square" or honest games (see below in the section on cheating). Asbury does not generally use the term gambler to refer to a person with a gambling problem. It is particularly interesting how the term "gambler" has evolved from meaning the person running the game (the house), to meaning the player or even on occasion the problem player (e.g., the 1974 movie The Gambler starring James Caan was about a pathological gambler).

Some of the professional gamblers discussed in the book were also pathological gamblers. For example, Canada Bill, a famous riverboat gambler, consistently won money by banking a game of three-card-monte, but consistently lost it playing faro. Once while he was playing faro, a friend told him that the game was rigged. However, Canada Bill kept playing anyway, explaining to his friend that it was the only game available. Many of the gamblers described in the book squandered their ill “gotten gains” away in one way or another, but most do not appear to have suffered from a gambling pathology.

Asbury introduces the reader to a rich language of gambling slang. A "sharp" or "sharper" was a gambler who cheated. According to Asbury, most professional gamblers cheated. A "sporting man" or "sportsman" was another term for a professional gambler, but this term also appeared to refer to the regular customers of casinos and gambling dens as well as the professionals. "Gaming" is sometimes used as a synonym for gambling, indicating that the use of this term is not a recent invention of the gambling industry. A "sucker," as used in the book, refers to the regular gamblers who play the games. In some cases this term is applied to pathological gamblers, but more often is used to refer to rich plantation owners and naïve country folk looking for a nice diversion or a quick buck. Interestingly, Asbury cites sources that use the term "addicts" to describe excessive gamblers as far back as the mid 19th century.There were also a number of terms used to describe different sorts of gambling venues. The best casinos were called "splendid hells" or "first class" palatial gambling resorts. Many were lavishly furnished. Fine dining and cigars were offered to the patrons at no charge. A "skinning house," in contrast, was a casino designed to take a player's money away from him as fast as possible. A "wolf trap" was a low-class casino where the banking was not done by the casino, but by anyone who was willing to set up a game of faro. This type of gambling den came into existence in Cincinnati around 1835 and offered games in a manner similar to the pool halls and bowling alleys of today. That is, the house provided the equipment, but the players had to organize and bank their own games. Most games in a wolf trap were "square," because cheating in these rough casinos was dangerous.

Cheating
Famous New York casino owner and gambler Richard Canfield insisted that he did not need to cheat in order to make a profit
(p. 420). However the impression one gets reading this book is that Canfield's honesty was the exception, rather than the norm. The book outlines numerous ways in which games of chance were rigged to provide the professional gambler with a certain win over the suckers. Games like faro, craps, or poker were sometimes played as legitimate games of chance, but according to Asbury were more often rigged by the professional gamblers to provide them with a large advantage. Loaded dice, marked cards, vests with "holdouts" to hide good cards, strippers to cut off small strips from sides of cards, poker rings for marking cards, rigged faro boxes, and other "advantage tools" were openly marketed. One advertisement directed towards professional sharpers includes the line, "Some gamblers seem to forget, or never to have known, that there is only one way to gamble successfully, and that is to 'get Tools to gamble with'" (p. 70).

A "square deal" was a game that was played honestly. This phrase owes it origin to the practice of "stripping" off the edges of the cards to help the dealer identify the cards in order to cheat the players. The cards in a stripped deck would not line up to make a proper squared edge.

Asbury’s focus on the cheats might be exaggerated. He describes bunco, for example, as being "entirely in the hands of sharpers" and was "never used for any other purpose than the despoliation of suckers" (p. 56). Bunco in fact became so synonymous with cheating that a police fraud squad is often called the bunco squad in honour of that game's fine reputation. However, bunco was a legitimate dice game that was quite popular in the 18th century and is apparently making a bit of a comeback today as a social and family entertainment (http://www.worldbunco.com/history.html).

Moral panic
Many of the quotes in the book draw a strong link between crime and gambling. Some of Asbury’s sources seem to be in the grip of a "moral panic." In a moral panic (Cohen, 2002) an amusement, such as comic books, video games, or rock music, to name three recent examples, becomes strongly associated in the media and public mind with crime or evil. The degree of moral panic over gambling is shown by the following quote:

By the early 1830’s the most startling rumors were current everywhere in that vast territory—the gamblers were rioting in New Orleans, stealing children and forcing them into brothels; they were agents of the Northern abolitionists; they had burned Mobile, pillaged Natchez, driven all but their own kind out of Vicksburg, and massacred the passengers of a dozen steamboats. The ignorant attributed to the power of the gamblers such acts of God as floods, tornadoes, cyclones, and even the great earthquake which had rocked the Mississippi Valley in 1811. (p. 213)

This panic ultimately led to the banning of public lotteries, anti-gambling riots, and in some cases the lynching of gamblers. Asbury's book itself is not an example of moral panic, but a collection of stories and anecdotes taken from articles and books written about gambling. Asbury certainly draws strong links between gambling, cheating, and crime, but at times his attitude towards his subject is one of bemused admiration for the accomplishments of these gamblers. Some of his sources, however, were caught up in moral panics, and these might give an exaggerated account of problems such as cheating.

The third wave of gambling
It is interesting to note that if such widespread cheating existed there must have been a lot of money to be made, a lot of suckers to milk who were either naïve or, perhaps, problem gamblers. One is left to wonder how a gambling industry so full of cheats could sustain itself. But the fact is that it did not sustain itself. The history, as told by Asbury, appears to be one of a constant shift from legitimate games, to cheating, to a legal ban or anti-gambling riot, followed later by a repeal of the anti-gambling laws as people forget why it was banned in the first place and so on through a continuous cycle.

In Gambling and the Law, Rose (1986) describes the current rapid expansion of legalized gambling as the "third wave of gambling." Asbury’s book is about the first (1800 to 1835, approximately) and second (1865 to 1900, approximately) waves of gambling. However, these waves appear to have been more like a series of cresting tides in different areas at different times. Unlike the current wave of legalized gambling, these older waves were often not legal and in no sense organized or coherent. Asbury describes these waves as follows,

Gambling in America experienced its greatest growth and expansion during the half-century which followed the Louisiana Purchase. In addition to the evolution of Faro and Poker, the introduction of Craps, Thimble-Rig and Monte, and the Phoenix-like rise of Policy from the ashes of Lottery, this period saw the spread of public gaming throughout the country, the first organized anti-gambling crusades, the rise and fall of the picturesque sharper of the Western rivers, the citizen’s war against the gamblers of the Mississippi, and the development of the gambling house and its transformation from a tolerated rarity into a political and social menace. (p.109)

The relationship between gambling and the law as described by Asbury has been a stormy one. Wide-open gambling existed in New Orleans during the French regime. Gambling bans in 1811, 1820, and 1835 sent ripples of displaced professional gamblers out across the Mississippi and throughout the interior of the United States.

The chapter on lotteries is in particular full of references to a love-hate relationship between the law and lotteries. Numerous schools, libraries, and other public institutions were funded through proceeds from lotteries. However, of particular interest is the large number of occasions on which various gambling activities have been prohibited by law. Lotteries were at one time legal and encouraged, but after lotteries were banned, policy (the numbers racket), faro, poker, and other games came to fill their place. Casinos were banned several times in history.

Between these prohibitions, various splendid hells as well as "second-rate skinning houses" would pop up from time to time. When gambling was legal they would pay licence fees, but when gambling was illegal they stayed open by paying off the police. These payoffs were essentially a licence fee. The New York police department, for example, used a well-defined formula to determine the size of the graft that a casino would have to pay based on the size of the casino. But in most cities the casinos' existence was always tenuous, as the police might attack at any time if the "graft" was insufficient or if some new reform-minded politician came into power.

Many cities had anti-gambling riots that ended in lynching. The lynching of gamblers in Vicksburg, for example (pg. 220), sent shocked waves of professional gamblers streaming north, west, and east, where they established "gambling colonies" in other cities. So gambling expanded and contracted in an almost accordion-like manner.

Interestingly, the gambling industry did not necessarily want wide-open gambling. In 1869 gambling was legalized in New Orleans, but a law permitting wide-open gambling was quickly repealed. It was the established gambling industry of the city that led the anti-gambling movement, because these "deluded sharpers" (p. 416) did not like the intense competition that the legalization had brought.

Noticeably absent from the book are discussions of betting on horse races, dog races, and sports. Asbury only mentions racetrack betting when casino operators or their biggest customers also branched out to the tracks. Perhaps this is because Asbury was only interested in gambling and criminal operations, whereas the tracks were legal. In addition, I have found only one brief mention of slot machines (in a footnote), even though they were invented by Charles Fey in 1895. Presumably slots had not made much of an inroad into underworld gambling by 1938.

Sucker's Progress is a fascinating book for anyone interested in the history of gambling. It is particularly valuable for the insight it provides regarding the similarities and differences in the gambling scene across different time periods.

[Kat]

Wow! I hope that was a copy-paste and not a typist's nightmare!

I'm glad to read a lot of that- it's very interesting!
I see the original *sharp* slang word is there- people always call it a *shark*.

Is there an internet website address for this quote?
Thanks!

[snokkums]

I have read that he was well respected, but in some cases not well liked. I read in the book "Lizzie didn't do it" that some people in Iowa had some issues with him and the statement by someone there had been he left Iowa with the same suit he came in to town with. So there might have been some issue with money, that he was alot like Andrew Borden when it came to money and that offended people.

[DWilly]

Wow! I hope that was a copy-paste and not a typist's nightmare!

I'm glad to read a lot of that- it's very interesting!
I see the original *sharp* slang word is there- people always call it a *shark*.

Is there an internet website address for this quote?
Thanks!

It was definitely cut and paste. After reading the article I just can't picture Andrew as a gambler. I wonder if after his murder that just weren't a few people going around bad mouthing him? Here's where I got the article from:

http://www.camh.net/egambling/issue13/j ... urner.html

[RayS]

Hi RayS--Troy was the city of Fall River's old name.

Gambling in those days might have been on a fast horse, a cock fight, or a bicycle race. Then there is always a good card game. In the summer, there were bets on yacht races, as well.

But when was it called 'Troy" and when did it fall to a new name?
Andrew Jackson was President circa 1832-1840. Wasn't Andy Borden born in 1822 (age 70)? Was it General Jackson's fame that accounts for the name? Wasn't it the custom to name boys after the currect President? When did it die out?
Can you imagine any baby boy being named William Clinton or George Bush today!!!

[nbcatlover]

In the year 1813, near the central part of what is now Fall River was a small village of three hundred inhabitants, known by the name of Troy. There were about thirty dwelling- houses, three saw mills, four grist mills, a fulling mill, a blacksmith with trip-hammer, several small stores; and a few small sloops constituted all the shipping. In that year, attracted by the unrivaled water- power, two manufacturing companies organized, and each erected a good sized cotton mill. One company, the Troy Cotton Manufactory, built its mill at the head of the falls, and the other, the Fall River Manufactory, built one nearly half way down the hill.

From:
http://ccbit.cs.umass.edu/lizzie/images ... 30F01.html

I've found government documents listing Troy, Massachusetts, back to at least 1801.

[KT72]

Hmm, I don't know about this business with Andrew being a former gambler, even as a young man. As far as I understand it, he spent his entire life, from the time he came of age, trying to overturn his father's poor financial skills. He was never known to waste a dollar in his life. He seems more like what we'd call a conservative investor today - somehow I don't see him taking big risks with his money, and gambling is the biggest financial risk ever. You don't go around gambling for years and then suddenly become ultra-frugal - unless you have a financial scare, and Andrew had supposedly already dealt with that in his childhood.

Re. Morse - I found it interesting to read that he had trained as a butcher. Considering that the photos of the dead Andrew and Abby are disturbingly reminiscent of raw hamburger, I find this fact a bit suspicious.........

[nbcatlover]

KT72--do a search here on the forum on butchers. David Anthony, the questioned Lizzie lover, was in the meat business--his father owned a slaughterhouse. I believe it was Mr. Buffinton of the Buffinton-Churchill house next door who was also a butcher. And there is a great theory about William Davis,a butcher Morse stayed with in Dartmouth, being hired. Lots of butchers here!

[Kat]

Maybe *Sporting man* meant something more? Maybe like a con-man?
I don't know. I'm glad this came up because I really never understood what was meant by that phrase.

BTW: Abraham Borden had a decent way with money too. He wasn't so poor and he finagled a way to get a pension for life out of his remaining son and daughter. Also, I believe he loaned Andrew the money to start up business with Almy?

[KT72]

Catlover: Hmm, verrrrry interesting, maybe the local butcher's guild did it!!!!

Kat: Perhaps I'm mistaken or have read incorrect information regarding Andrew's upbringing. However, I do think I'm correct in saying he had always been known to be frugal and not a waster of money. I think that if Andrew were here in our own century, he would wrinkle his nose at so much as buying a $1 lottery ticket...........

[Angel]

Does anyone remember when Morse's last trip to the Borden's home was, before the one in August, 1892?

[Allen]

Inqest of John V. Morse testimony page 96:

Q. The last time you were there before this murder was when?
A. I should think somewhere about the 10th of July.

Q. How long did you stay then?
A. I did not stay but a short time. I was here over night, but I went down to an Aunt's on the Stafford Road at the time.

Q.What is her name?
A. Catherine Boudray.

[Angel]

Thanks. I was just thinking about the pregnancy/abortion theory for either Lizzie or her sister. (Emma going away to recoup maybe, or Lizzie post abortion from Dr. Bowen (which would explain his odd behavior) avoiding Morse on his visit in August.

[Allen]

The very next questions asked to Morse at the inquest, after the ones I posted above, also on page 96:

Q. Before that, can you recall the last time you were there?
A. It was somewhere the last of June. I know Phebe Curry was sick at the time, she died a little afterwards, I think about the last of June.

Q. Did you stop all night then?
A. No sir, came over in the morning and went back at night. I can tell about that time if you want me to. There was a lady came over, Mr. Davis' daughter, with me. We drove over in the afternoon. I hired a horse, and Mr. Borden's daughter went to ride, we went down to the steamboat. I took her home after dark.

Q. Did you see much of Miss Lizzie when you came to the house?
A. Sometimes; sometimes I did not see either of the girls, stayed a few minutes and talked with Mr. Borden, and went out.

Q. Take that last time but one in July, when you went down to Boudray's, did you see Miss Lizzie then?
A. I don't think I saw either of them at that time.

Q. Take the time before that, when Miss Davis came over with you, did you see Miss Lizzie then?
A. I saw Emma; I went to ride, I told you.

Q. Did you see Lizzie?
A. I don't think I did.

[sguthmann]

Course, Morse does seem to have a lousy memory when it comes to when he "last saw" certain people...or, for that matter, if he ever saw them at all?

From the Aug. 5 Evening Standard, page 7

Morse's niece was asked if she had ever seen her uncle before, and replied that she had. She had met him when she was five years old, and three weeks ago he had taken her from the cars at Warren to the Borden farm, Swanzey.

and

Mr. Morse's memory in regard to his niece is somewhat defective. He had said that he went to call on her for the first time yesterday. He was interviewed again.
"I thought that you told me, Mr. Morse," said the interviewer, "that you never saw your niece before to-day?"
"I never did," replied Mr. Morse.
"She says," was the rejoinder, "that you met her in Warren and drove her to Swanzey."
"Ah, that is so. I did," said Mr. Morse. "I saw her for just a moment or so."

[Catbooks]

I don't know about Andrew but found this on Uncle John. Page 134, Rebello:

"Julius Chambers, "Who Killed the Bordens?" Collier's Once a Week, vol.. ix, no. 22, Saturday, September 10, 1892: 11-13.
__,"Who Killed the Bordens?" A Cavalcade of Collier's, Kenneth McArdle, ed., New York: A.S. Barnes, Inc., 1959, 1-9."

"Mr. Chambers was a staff writer for the weekly magazine Once a Week. He was in Fall River shortly after the Borden murders and attended the preliminary hearing. The article summarized the events of the Borden murders up until the conclusion of the preliminary hearing. A reenactment of how easy it was to enter and leave the Borden property undetected was conducted and reported by Mr. Chambers. He discovered that he had very little difficulty entering and leaving without being noticed. He provided readers with vivid descriptions of Emma, Lizzie, Bridget, Andrew J. Jennings, and Hosea M. Knowlton. He implied an incestuous relationship was possible between Lizzie and John V. Morse when he wrote:

"It would be a matter of the greatest importance to know all about this poor girl's private life - I say it without any morbid feeling of curiosity, but purely in the interest of justice and of American womanhood. The police have intimated undue familiarity between Lizzie and her uncle, but remembering the character of the girl and her strong religious instincts, I am loath to even consider the subject. As to old man Morse, I confess frankly that I would hate to meet him in a dark alley. He certainly has a very cruel and hardened face, and I think it would be very proper to make serious inquiry regarding his past history in that part of the far West from which he comes. I say this without any prejudice to Mr. Morse, because his alibi is apparently complete. Apropos, the early life of Mr. Borden should be inquired into. I learn that he was quite a 'sporting man' when he lived in Troy twenty-odd years ago and had a curious reputation."

[...]

I'm back after a long Lizzie reprieve, and was doing some research on Uncle John. Came across this thread, and saw many wondering what the term "a sporting man" meant. It didn't make sense to many that Andrew was a "sporting man," in the sense of his being a gambler, nor did it to me.

The internet has grown a lot since these threads, and I found this definition, which makes more sense, given the context of what Mr Chambers was alluding to.

The sporting man culture involves men leading hedonistic lifestyles that included keeping mistresses as well excessive eating, drinking, smoking, gambling, and big game hunting. It is applied to a large group of middle- and upper-class men in the mid-19th century, most often in Great Britain and the United States.

It's difficult to see Andrew as a hedonist, but it sounds like it was a polite, late Victorian way of saying he'd had his share of affairs in his youth. Perhaps there is something to Billy Borden being his illegitimate son after all? I used to discount that out of hand.

Of course Mr Chambers could have been all wrong, too.

[twinsrwe]

Welcome back to the forum, Catbrooks. You have been missed!

Thank you for posting the definition you found. I find it interesting, and like you, I have a hard time seeing Andrew as a hedonist, but it could very well be that he was. There are so many areas in the Borden murder case which remain unknown to us. We really have very little insight as to Andrew, Sarah, Abby, Emma, Lizzie and Bridget characters.

We know that Andrew was fungal all his life, and because of that fact, I find my mind completely rejecting the idea that he lead the hedonistic lifestyle as described in this definition. It takes money to keep a mistress, as well as indulge in excessive eating, drinking, smoking, gambling, and big game hunting. I may be wrong, but I just can not see Andrew spending his hard earned money on the kind of things that are listed in that definition.

Of course, as we know, even if Andrew did indulge in all of the things listed in that definition, it doesn't prove that he fathered William Borden.

I think Andrew may have been referred to a hedonist, due to his real estate investments, which could be seen as a type of gambling.

[Catbooks]

Thanks for the welcome, Twins.

I'm not saying I think Andrew was a hedonist, or that he partook of excessive eating, drinking, smoking, gambling, or big game hunting. I don't think that's what the article's author was saying either.

The phrase "sporting man" refers to those things as well, but since it was inspired by Edward VII, who was well known as an inveterate and lifelong womanizer or philanderer (pick your term), in the context of what Mr Chambers wrote, this part of the definition makes the most sense. I think that's exactly what he meant.

To give it more context, a "sporting woman" or "sporting girl" meant a woman or girl of loose morals or a prostitute.

We don't know if there's any truth to it, where he heard it, and from whom, but if this does describe his behavior in his youth, it makes the possibility of his having a child outside of marriage more likely.