The Kelly maid

This the place to have frank, but cordial, discussions of the Lizzie Borden case

Moderator: Adminlizzieborden

Post Reply
User avatar
DWilly
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:15 pm
Real Name:

The Kelly maid

Post by DWilly »

I was digging around in the archives and looking for things on the Kelly maid. I believe she was the one Bridget was talking to the day of the murder. Her name was Mary Doolan. Hope I got that right. Is there a copy of an interview done with her? Because I'm wondering if it's possible Bridget may have told this girl something about the Bordens on that fateful day. Bridget was suppose to be out there washing windows and she stops to chat with Mary. I wonder if she complained to Mary about Abby making her go wash the windows on that hot day? Or maybe mentioned that there were a few problems in the Borden home? One final thing, if Mary was outside I wonder who she saw coming and going into the Borden house? If Mary was some sort of friend to Bridget you can't help but wonder what Bridget may have told her in their girl talks over the fence. Or to go one step farther did Mary hear things from other servants and put the pieces together? Anyone know what happened to Mary?
User avatar
Allen
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Me

Post by Allen »

The only thing I have been able to find which concerns Mary Doolan in the way of a possible interview, is in the Witness Statements on page 8, from the notes of Doherty and Harrington:

In the morning, shortly before the murder, Dr. Kelly's girl, Mary, was talking to Bridget over the fence, neither saw anyone in or around the yard.


I infer into this that she was interviewed and corroborated Bridget's story. However, her actual statements are not recorded here. She isn't even referred to by her full name.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
Kat
Posts: 14784
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
Real Name:
Location: Central Florida

Post by Kat »

What Missy posted is authentic.
However, I recalled that de Mille mentions Mary Doolan a bit and also Mrs. Dr. Kelly thru memories of Dr. Kelly's daughter Eva Kelly Betz.

Lizzie Borden, A Dance of Death, Agnes de Mille, Atlantic Monthly Press
1968:

33
"Bridget, after throwing up in the backyard, pulled herself together, cooked and served the unappetizing bulky breakfast, and then was set by Mrs. Borden to washing all the downstairs windows inside and out. The Kelly's maid, Mary Doolan, was set to the same task that morning."

45
"People barred their doors that night, thinking a maniac was loose. Mrs. Kelly remembered all her life sitting with her maid, Mary Doolan, Bridget's back-fence confidante, behind closed shutters and the bolted and barricaded door. Her husband was away and both women were frightened. The sound of the ripe pears falling to the grass in the Bordens' yard next door caused them to start violently. The whole town sat in the stuffy dark, whispering, their flesh crawling every time a door closed."

55+
"Bridget had the opportunity to kill, but she had no apparent motive. She stood to gain nothing. The least she could lose was her livelihood, the most her life. Servants have murdered for spite, impatience, or outrage on seemingly trivial grounds. Mrs. Borden was certainly inconsiderate that morning, even callously insensitive, and may have been on other occasions. But note this: not one contemporary comment was ever made on the matter. Mrs. Kelly, the neighbor, never spoke of it. Mary Doolan, Mrs. Kelly's maid and Bridget's back-fence crony, never spoke of it. In fact, she was similarly occupied herself. Mary Doolan remarked nothing unusual in Bridget's manner that morning, which, had she just come from axing her mistress, might have been expected."

70
"During the hours of the killing there had been people at several open windows and on porches within view of the Borden doors. There were workmen and the Kelly's maid in the Kelly's yard. No stranger had been seen entering or leaving, and Miss Lizzie had not been observed on her alleged trip to and from the barn, except by a hack driver who was vague about times."
User avatar
Harry
Posts: 4061
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:28 pm
Real Name: harry
Location: South Carolina

Post by Harry »

Undoubtedly Mary Doolan was interviewed. On May 16, 1893 Knowlton signed an order for the issueing of a summons for potential witnesses to appear at the courthouse on June 5, the first day of the trial. Among the names is Mary Doolan.

See the Knowlton papers, HK183, page 185.

You don't wait until the trial to find out what a potential witness knows. They would not have summoned her without some knowledge of what she knew or could possibly add to the case. Since she wasn't called to testify I assume they thought her information was not that important. Unfortunately her information is not available to us. Drat!

The Knowlton papers lists 4 different orders from Knowlton containing lists of potential witnesses. They contain many names besides Mary Doolan that were never called.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
User avatar
DWilly
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:15 pm
Real Name:

Post by DWilly »

Does anyone know how old Mary was? I wonder just what they asked her and how much she told? I was looking through the archives and I came across one post that said something about how Mrs. Churchill hoped they didn't ask her a lot of questions since she didn't like talking about her neighbors. I wonder if that attitude was one that many people had and as a result they kept their lips zipped unless asked a very direct question?
User avatar
Kat
Posts: 14784
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
Real Name:
Location: Central Florida

Post by Kat »

After the *robbery* at the Borden house, an investigation ensued.
Later, during the trying times of an investigation into the murders, neighbors (like Alice Russell) said they had not heard of the robbery. Yet Desmond says he asked around.
Alice had moved by the date of the robbery.

If an officer talked to neighbors, yet the robbery does not seem common knowledge... it's hard to figure out.

Example:
Witness Statements, pg. 18:
"Sunday 21. Summoning witnesses, Restcome A. Case and wife of 199 Second street. Their statement. Understood from general talk the girls and Mrs. Borden did not get along very pleasantly. Never heard Mrs. Borden say anything about the family relations. Her allowance was about $200. a year; but much of it was spent on articles for the house. The lace curtains in the parlor she purchased. The girls got the same amount as she, but it was for their own use. A short time ago Mrs. Borden, for the first time, told me of the robbery, which took place about a year ago. She simply mentioned it, and said she would tell me all about it some time."

My impression is that people probably talked among themselves but maybe did not spread info outside their immediate street or neighbors. For example, Southard Miller called a *witness* over to hear the details of the murder so he could stay out of it. He did it purposely. Then later we find he was in the Borden yard talking to men there and hanging around- yet he wanted to stay out of it and he did stay out of it.

Here's Mrs. Wyatt's reaction to being questioned:
"Mrs. Mary Wyatt, No. 91 Second street. This woman lives over Dr. Bowen. It is she who first told Mr. M. Chace, L. Winslow, and several others who were standing in front of Wade's, about the crime. She dodged us for a week or more; and when finally seen, positively refused to be interviewed."--Witness Statements, pg. 20
RayS
Posts: 2508
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 pm
Real Name:
Location: Bordentown NJ

Post by RayS »

Kat @ Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:53 am wrote:What Missy posted is authentic.
However, I recalled that de Mille mentions Mary Doolan a bit and also Mrs. Dr. Kelly thru memories of Dr. Kelly's daughter Eva Kelly Betz.

Lizzie Borden, A Dance of Death, Agnes de Mille, Atlantic Monthly Press
1968:

33
"Bridget, after throwing up in the backyard, pulled herself together, cooked and served the unappetizing bulky breakfast, and then was set by Mrs. Borden to washing all the downstairs windows inside and out. The Kelly's maid, Mary Doolan, was set to the same task that morning."
...
55+
"Bridget had the opportunity to kill, but she had no apparent motive. She stood to gain nothing. The least she could lose was her livelihood, the most her life. Servants have murdered for spite, impatience, or outrage on seemingly trivial grounds. Mrs. Borden was certainly inconsiderate that morning, even callously insensitive, and may have been on other occasions. But note this: not one contemporary comment was ever made on the matter. Mrs. Kelly, the neighbor, never spoke of it. Mary Doolan, Mrs. Kelly's maid and Bridget's back-fence crony, never spoke of it. In fact, she was similarly occupied herself. Mary Doolan remarked nothing unusual in Bridget's manner that morning, which, had she just come from axing her mistress, might have been expected."

70
"During the hours of the killing there had been people at several open windows and on porches within view of the Borden doors. There were workmen and the Kelly's maid in the Kelly's yard. No stranger had been seen entering or leaving, and Miss Lizzie had not been observed on her alleged trip to and from the barn, except by a hack driver who was vague about times."
SURPRISE!!! I will give you my disagreement with the above quotes.

First, sending Bridget outside to wash the windows was an open-ended task that would not be observed and possibly criticized. (Ever wished, when feeling unwell, your manager told you to "go outside and watch". (But I could be wrong, not being an actual witness or hearing the undertones of this command.)

Second, that was the point of Edward Radin's supposition about Bridget. But Bridget seemed to be contented.
User avatar
Allen
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Me

Post by Allen »

I've always leaned towards the idea that Thursday was usually the day allotted for this task, for a variety of reasons. First, the Kelly maid was also outside washing the windows that Thursday. Mrs. Churchill testified that the usual day for washing windows was Thursday. Lastly, there seemed to be a chore assigned for each day of the week back then. There were certain days when certain things were done, and the majority of households did things that way. Monday was laundry day, Tuesday was ironing day, etc. Much of the research I've done into this indicates this is the way things were usually done. So I've never found it odd, or suspicious that Bridget was outside washing windows, other than the fact that if this was the case, Lizzie would be counting on Bridget being gone from the house and leaving her alone with Abby.

Inquest testimony Mrs. Churchill:

Q. Do you remember how long before that time she had been out washing the windows, whether that same week, or the week before?
A. I don't think she washed windows but once a week, and Thursday was generally the day.

Q. It was the habit to wash the windows once a week?
A. She generally did.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
Harry
Posts: 4061
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:28 pm
Real Name: harry
Location: South Carolina

Post by Harry »

I do remember my mother saying household chores had certain days but I don't remember her ever following any schedule. Not with 3 kids only 4 years apart in age.

There are several web sites that list the days. Bridget was right on schedule with Monday and Tuesday.

Monday: Wash Day
Tuesday: Ironing Day
Wednesday: Sewing Day
Thursday: Market Day
Friday: Cleaning Day
Saturday: Baking Day
Sunday: Day of Rest

http://www.serve.com/marbeth/daysoftheweek.html and
http://www.thenewhomemaker.com/choredays
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
CagneyBT
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:56 pm
Real Name: Joan

Re: The Kelly maid

Post by CagneyBT »

Mary Doolan was last listed in the 1896 city directory at 240 Second St. (formerly 96 Second). There are no further listings for her at that address after 1896.

If this news item is referring to the Kelly maid, it appears that the reason was that Mary Doolan returned to Ireland for good.

The Fall River Daily Herald, Dec. 4, 1895: Mary Doolin (sic) sails on the Eutruria Dec. 14 to make her home permanently across the water.

The Dec. 21, 1895 incoming passenger list of "the Etruria" shows the arrival in Queenstown, Ireland of Mary Doolan, age 31, b. 1864, spinster.

It’s interesting to note that Bridget Sullivan had also returned to Ireland in May 1895.
camgarsky4
Posts: 1390
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:05 pm
Real Name: George Schuster

Re: The Kelly maid

Post by camgarsky4 »

Cagney -- are you able to discern the cost of these trips? Curious if costs a month wages, 3 months...?
CagneyBT
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:56 pm
Real Name: Joan

Re: The Kelly maid

Post by CagneyBT »

hi Camgarsky :smile:

The "Etruria" was part of the Cunard Line, as was "the Lucania", the ship that Bridget Sullivan boarded on her return to Ireland in May 1895.

According to a Cunard Line advertisement from May 1895, the ship departed from Pier 40, North River, foot of Clarkson Street, City of New York every Saturday, from New York – Queenstown.

According to the incoming passenger manifest for Queenstown, Mary traveled in steerage; the advertisement for "the Etruria" doesn’t list the steerage fare, but the costs to travel in steerage on other Cunard Line ships was $10-15. (approx. $400-500 in today’s currency).

Live-in domestics, like Mary and Bridget, had their room and board provided for, so they were able to save more of their earnings. They would have had to dip into their savings to pay for the fare, but it was certainly doable.

We don’t know what Mary’s wages were, but her employer, Dr. Michael Kelly, was well-known in Fall River for his kindness and humanitarian endeavors on behalf of the poor. He was also a fellow Irish immigrant whose aunt, Mary Quinn, helped fund his education by working as a domestic in Fall River for almost 50 years. It seems likely that he would been generous towards his own domestic servant and paid Mary well for her service.
camgarsky4
Posts: 1390
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:05 pm
Real Name: George Schuster

Re: The Kelly maid

Post by camgarsky4 »

Since Mary worked for the Kelly's until she left the U.S. (presuming she was on the Queenstown), then I agree, Dr. Kelly might have helped with the faire or maybe cut a deal where she stayed as their domestic until a certain time, at which point he would fund or help fund the trip. In the corporate world those are called "Retention bonuses". :smile:

One would think Mary and Bridget would be pretty tight, but the only reference point we have on that issue is that Wednesday night, Bridget went walking with a buddy who lived on 3rd St and not her neighbor domestic Mary. I believe there was another domestic at the Miller's and she spent a night there immediately following the murders.

They should have created a Second St. Domestic Workers Union!!! :lol:
CagneyBT
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:56 pm
Real Name: Joan

Re: The Kelly maid

Post by CagneyBT »

I love the idea of a “Second Street Domestic Workers Union!” :grin: :grin:

I came across this interesting news item that got me wondering:

Fall River Globe, Saturday, Aug. 6, 1892: “Bridget Sullivan, the servant girl, slept in the house last night, but the night before she spent in Dr. Bowen's residence.”

However, Bridget’s trial testimony states she slept at Mrs. Miller’s house the evening of August 4th (presumably at 93 Second which was Southard Miller’s address).

"Q. Did you remain at the house after the homicide any length of time?
A. I stayed there. I went out Thursday night and slept out in Mrs. Miller's girl's house, and Friday night I slept in the house.
Q. You mean Mrs. Miller's house with the girl?
A. With the servant. I slept with her Thursday night.
Q. On Thursday night?
A. Yes, sir, and I came back Friday morning, stayed there all through the time and did the work and Friday night I went out and came back and slept in the house.
Q. In the Borden house?
A. Yes, sir, and Saturday night I left for good as I thought, and came back Monday and Mr. Miller said I should not leave the house until he came and took me out.
Q. You did not stay there Saturday night?
A. No, sir,---or Sunday night.
Q. You were not there Sunday morning?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you there Sunday at all for any part of the day?
A. No, sir, I came there Monday morning."

What’s confusing is Bridget’s statement: “I...slept out in Mrs. Miller’s girl’s house.” The wording can imply that Bridget stayed at the girl’s house, not at the Miller’s residence.

I couldn’t locate any domestics in the city directories at 93 Second during the time of the murders. If the Millers employed a domestic in 1892, it’s possible she was not a live-in servant.

The 1900 census records a servant residing at 219 Second St (formerly 93 Second). with Franklin Miller, Southard’s son. Her name was Johanna Shanahan. She was single, born in Ireland, age 38 and immigrated in 1882. Perhaps Johanna Shanahan was Bridget’s sleep-over buddy who lived elsewhere in 1892.

So where the heck did Bridget stay on Thursday night? And who was “the Miller girl?” Inquiring minds want to know! :-?
camgarsky4
Posts: 1390
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:05 pm
Real Name: George Schuster

Re: The Kelly maid

Post by camgarsky4 »

I've always assumed Knowlton clarified which house Thursday night with his 2nd question below. Southard Miller's home.
Ironic how the domestics themselves don't give each other due respect. Borden sisters call her "Maggie" and she call's the Miller domestic "Mrs. Miller's girl". Why not Bridget and "Betty Sue". Ah well.....those were certainly different times.

"Q. Did you remain at the house after the homicide any length of time?
A. I stayed there. I went out Thursday night and slept out in Mrs. Miller's girl's house, and Friday night I slept in the house.
Q. You mean Mrs. Miller's house with the girl?
A. With the servant. I slept with her Thursday night.
CagneyBT
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:56 pm
Real Name: Joan

Re: The Kelly maid

Post by CagneyBT »

"Ironic how the domestics themselves don't give each other due respect. Borden sisters call her "Maggie" and she call's the Miller domestic "Mrs. Miller's girl". Why not Bridget and "Betty Sue". Ah well.....those were certainly different times.I noticed"

I noticed that, as well. Domestics always seemed to be identified as their employer's "girl," even among each other. It appears to be a way of establishing status.

"I've always assumed Knowlton clarified which house Thursday night with his 2nd question below. Southard Miller's home."

Bridget doesn’t exactly clarify in response to Knowlton’s question. For example, she doesn’t say “Yes, I stayed at Mrs. Miller’s house with the servant.” Her answer to Knowlton is simply “With the servant.” Her previous statement  “I...slept out in Mrs. Miller’s girl’s house” can still suggest that she stayed at the servant’s house, not the Millers. So her statement can be interpreted either way.

As to who the mysterious servant may have been, this is from Spencer’s The Case Against Lizzie Borden. He’s referring to Nellie McHenry’s Aug. 25, 1892 statement in the Knowlton Papers:

Nellie wrote, “Bridget denied telling the O’Neil girl that Lizzie sent her upstairs to clean the windows.” The servant at the Kelly house, whom Bridget talked to just before starting to wash the windows was Mary Dolan (sic). Assuming the name O’Neil is correct, she would likely be Southard Miller’s servant, with whom Bridget stayed Thursday night, or another servant known to Bridget.

Live-in domestics were rarely listed in city directories. Mary Doolan was an exception, and she was listed as “boarder” at 96 Second, not “servant.” I searched the directories for anyone, including an O’Neil, living at 93 Second without result.

I guess this little mystery will remain unsolved. :-?
camgarsky4
Posts: 1390
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:05 pm
Real Name: George Schuster

Re: The Kelly maid

Post by camgarsky4 »

Page 9 in the Witness Statements. Doherty / Harrington.

"We were on guard at the house from 1. A. M. until 9. A. M. Friday (august 3). At one o’clock the house was
all in darkness, and so remained all night. There was no noise until about 6.20 A. M. About 6.30 A. M.
Mr. John Morse came to the side door, said “good morning”, and spoke about the weather. At 8.30 he (John Morse)
came out, and going over to S. H. Miller’s, he called Bridget, who stayed there that night.
He then went
to the P. O., stopped about a minute, went out and crossed to Geo. E. Howe’s where he purchased a two
cent stamp. He then returned to the P. O. and at 8.32 A.M. dropped a letter addressed to Wm. A. Davis
So. Dartmouth. It bore the words “In haste”. On his way home he tried the Daily News door, and it was
not open."
CagneyBT
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:56 pm
Real Name: Joan

Re: The Kelly maid

Post by CagneyBT »

Awesome find, Camgarksy! Thanks for posting! :grin:

So Bridget did stay at Mller's after all.

That certainly solves part of the mystery. The other part was... who was the Miller's servant? :wink: j/k
Post Reply