So, who thinks Radin was right?...........

This the place to have frank, but cordial, discussions of the Lizzie Borden case

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mbhenty
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Post by mbhenty »

Yes Susan: (remember that song called Susan, by The Electirc Light Orchestra?)

Let's try again: Yes, Susan:

I mean, where does it stop, (personally I hope never) that is to say, the theories of who did the crime. The police and professional writers
never got it right, so I guess it's up to us.

Let us consider, as you say, there was a huge amount of trust between Lizzie and Bridget. How could this mis-match be possible?

Well, if you consider folklore, that Lizzie was Homosexual, this could be very possible. She is starved for affection and Bridget became the ready-access partner, at least a couple of times. The girl Bridget, not willing but submitting, would be in a shameful predicament.
(I was working on a novel 15 years ago where this came into play. Will probably take me another 15.)

I have known countless girls who have become very submissive, some sexually, to thier employers. I knew of two friends, one was single the other married, and both employers, married men. I found that these women were trapped in a vortex of secrecy, and did not know how to get out. One was a good friend to me.

Not to say that Bridget was willing, but became a victim of Lizzie's web,
who held a life and career destroying secret over Bridget's head, one that continued into a weird mis-guided relationship which lead to her helping Lizzie in some way, perhaps taking away the ax. (If you believe that Lizzie did it, where did the weapon go?)

Now laced with this shame, and without thinking, let us say she helped
Lizzie hide the ax. Wooooe, now she is really in a huge amount of trouble. Someone may find out she slept with another women, now that she had a hand in a killing. What could she do now?
She would not dare tell anything.

Now she was in a pickle. No way would she betray Lizzie, not because of any devotion to Lizzie, but out of fear of being caught up in helping her with the crime and sleeping with another women..., and Lizzie knew it.

But these stories are usually just folklore that the masses love to run with.

I never believed Mary Magdelene was a prostitute, where is the proof in the bible, though the average Christian accepts it. Where can we take it from there, shall we consider the Da Vinc Code?

I don't believe anything I just said, but would make a great book.

I mean, was someone under Lizzie's bed when Nance O'neil was at Maplecroft? Who is to say anything ever happened. Maybe they were no more than kissy-face friends who found it exciting to entice the public. It was believed that Nance loved that sort of thing and so did Lizzie.

Yes, Nance was known to have "Loved women." People develop these scenarios in their heads, writers run with it, enhance it, and the public, at times we our selves, choose to believe it.

No one knows what goes on behind closed doors unless it's Paris Hilton and someone has the DVD. When it comes to Lizzie it is exciting to talk about her sexual expolites, but really, where is the proof. I guess you can say we don't need proof........................it's fun.

Personally Susan, as you believe, I don't think Bridget had anything to do with it. I think she was scared out of her wits, being a "Irish imigrant," and being used as a scapegoat, onto whom the blame could be placed.


Make any sense? :smile:
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Post by RayS »

Susan @ Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:08 pm wrote:...
The only way I could see it was if Lizzie had something on Bridget, something to blackmail her with, something to use against her. In that way Lizzie could be sure that Bridget wouldn't flake or squeal to the police. But, how could Bridget put that much faith and trust in Lizzie, that she wouldn't turn while on the stand at the inquest and implicate Bridget as the murderess?

And if Bridget was an accomplice, and she got rid of the hatchet and a bloodstained dress, why did Lizzie choose to destroy one her own dresses a few days after? And if Bridget was in on the murders, why did she try to get out of that house as quickly as she could, why not stay and continue working there for Lizzie and Emma?
Yes, Bridget's removal from the house tells me she didn't like anyone but Abby, not the daughters. I already said long ago that the only time the bloodstained dresses and hatchet could have been eliminated was right after the crime, if either woman did it. They didn't!
I think that Lizzie, now free of parental control, burned a paint-stained dress as a symbol of her new freedom. Andy couldn't say "use it up, wear it out, make do or do without".
The proof of this is: I agree with Arnold Brown's solution, hence my judgment is better.
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Post by Susan »

Michael, I had to look up the lyrics to the ELO song, I had a vague memory of it. It sounds more like Lizzie's lifestyle at Maplecroft than my life! :lol:

Yes, I believe the kind of trust that would be needed from both Lizzie and Bridget would have to come from a very close relationship, even an intimate one. It was implied that Bridget had boyfriends, I think even a fiance who had died and she allegedly married later on in life in Montana. True, Bridget could have been a bisexual while Lizzie was solely a lesbian, but, would Lizzie let or want Bridget out sporting around with men while they were having a relationship? And Bridget left the house and Lizzie after the murders, that doesn't sound like there was much of a relationship there.

Your scenario works much better, Lizzie having her way with Bridget a couple of times, enough to have something to hold over Bridget's head. Its been written about often enough about the master of the house having his way with the female servants, why not one of the mistress' of the house? Then Lizzie could shame or guilt Bridget into helping her with the murders. And they would each have something on each other; I don't tell and you don't tell to keep each other quiet afterwards.

Ray, didn't Lizzie burn the dress after she was told by the mayor of Fall River that she was a suspect? Yes, she was free of parental control, but, not from outside forces. I think it would be an odd time to be grandstanding and thinking that she could do whatever she wanted. :?:
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Post by mbhenty »

Yes Susan: Thanks for the insight. Yes, it is very interesting with so many avenues we can follow down, thus the reason That Radin followed a road that no one had dare expounded on, which ultimately became very popular, though I do not agree with his outcome.

Yes Susan, happy you remember that song. Yes, yes, it could have been about Lizzie. :lol: The Susan in the ELO song had life at her feet, but was so sad and bored with people and life. I loved that song and played it hundreds of times. The lyrics and music were good. I loved ELO at that time with their violins, cellos, intertwine with rock and roll, making progressive rock. It was not a hit, and I think it was off their second album.

I forgot the name of the album but it was my favorite ELO album. They later went into Disco music. I hated Disco (sorry) but ELO's stuff within the disco genre was quite good.

I saw them in concert two times. I should not admit this (like I do many other things of my party days.) but I wish I was alert when I did see them. Today, I would be screaming at the crowd to keep quiet. (and never again to take a sip of any open bottle being passed around :roll:

Such is life to a young man and the pressure placed on us by our peers.

thanks SUSAN :smile:
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Post by DWilly »

Let me just toss out a few random thoughts here:

I tend to think Bridget in a way did help Lizzie. I don't think she did it directly by hiding the hatchet or anything, but rather by simply not telling the police everything she knew or saw that day. I think the same thing about Dr. Bowen and Mrs. Churchill. I think that all of them just thought about protecting her. I don't even know if they fully realized what they were doing. They just did it.

I don't know that Bridget was ever seriously thought a suspect. Weren't some people of the opinion that since most of the Police were Catholics that they sort of went easy on Bridget? I know somewhere I read an article that talked about how the Catholics were out to get Lizzie.

As for Lizzie being a lesbian. Well, I have posted many times on that. In my opinion and it's only an opinion. I tend to think she was. What I find is most people tend to automatically assume someone is straight with no proof. That's what the "David Anthony Did It" crowd does. They put Lizzie with him and there's less proof of Lizzie being with him then Nance. Heck, there's more proof she fooled around with Bridget then David. :peanut19:
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Post by Haulover »

***Strictly on a literary basis, Radin authored a splendid book. He doesn't need my endorsement - he is the only writer who has won two Mystery Writer "Edgar" awards - a much deserved tribute from his peers.

Because he wrote a good book doesn't necessarily imply that his premise was correct - Bridget didn't murder the Bordens. She didn't have a valid motive. The testimony we have gives no indication that she harbored ill feelings towards her employers, quite the contrary. ***
__________

the above from william's post -- i agree with this completely. radin's literary talent keeps his book alive. william's summary is splendid -- it would have improved my article. that's all.
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Post by Audrey »

this thread has, of course, caused me to pull my Radin off the shelf and being to re-read it!

Anyone else?
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Post by RayS »

Audrey @ Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:57 am wrote:this thread has, of course, caused me to pull my Radin off the shelf and being to re-read it!

Anyone else?
Will you then write up what you discoverd from this rare book?
BTW, what can you tell us about the cover? The picture, the price?
Its not whether I believe you, but as a check on your version of this copy.
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Post by Audrey »

RayS @ Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:27 pm wrote:
Audrey @ Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:57 am wrote:this thread has, of course, caused me to pull my Radin off the shelf and being to re-read it!

Anyone else?
Will you then write up what you discoverd from this rare book?
BTW, what can you tell us about the cover? The picture, the price?
Its not whether I believe you, but as a check on your version of this copy.
Ray.... Be happy I am not the forum administrator. A woman with more patience than most. I am done posting to you rather it be directly or indirectly. You are offensive, rude and tiresome.

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Post by william »

Audrey,,

Yep. Not only pulled Radin off the shelf, I also grabbed Gerald Gross' "Masterpieces of Murder."
In addition to Pearson's The Final Word, it also provided A Postscript to the Final Word by Gross (his solution) and The Pearson-Radin Controversy by Mrs. Edmund Pearson.

Mrs Pearson's comments take up only one page, but what I particularly liked is the way she stuck up for her husband ... good for her!

I trust your impending surgery goes well. I'll say a prayer for you ....(it couldn't hurt).
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Post by Haulover »

ray, the radin book is not exactly "rare." are you implying there is a "phony" version of it in circulation? do you know something no one else knows? do you have a copy?
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Post by KT72 »

Whew!! Back from hiatus over the weekend!!

Okay, KAT: I finally read that Pearson/Radin Controversy article. Here are my thoughts:

Very good article, makes a great case on Radin's errors.

I'm starting to think, with more research, that Bridget couldn't have had much guilty knowledge at all. Even if she knew something after the fact, it would have been in her long-term best interest to cooperate with the police as much as she could. Hiding things would have jeopardized her even more.

I totally disagree with Gross' own theory, however, on the following counts:

1.) "What probably happened is that Lizzie, after nuturing her resentments for some long while, approached Bridget, offered her money for her help, secured her agreement to assist her, and then proceeded to wait for the right day to murder her parents."

Was it enough to retire on? Because as a lower-class Irish immigrant, it would have been dang near impossible for Bridget to find decent work after being involved with this crime, even if she'd never been suspected and her only involvement was being in the house at the time and testifying at the trial. Imagine how difficult it would be to get a job if your most recent employment reference was a murder suspect!!

Employer: "All right, Miss Sullivan, let's take a look at your resume. Hmmm, yes, very impressive. Well, the job is yours if you can provide good references from respectable people."

Bridget: "Here's my letter of reference from Miss Lizzie Borden! I'm sure you've heard of her!"

Bridget would have to have a much greater incentive than money to conspire with Lizzie.

This, BTW, is why I believe that Bridget agreed to help the prosecution. The police secured good employment for her with the Taunton jailkeeper. This would have been absolutely imperative for Bridget's future livelihood.

No proof ever existed that Bridget received enough money to go to Ireland and live comfortably into her old age. That is pure hearsay.

2.) "The right day came when Emma, Lizzie's sister, was out of town visiting friends, and Lizzie's uncle, John Vinnicum Morse, a surprise guest at the Borden house, was out for the morning and not expected back until lunchtime."

Gross asserts that Lizzie had planned the crime for some while. Well, if that were the case, her plans were ruined by the very assortment of unexpected events named by Gross. For example, Morse's arrival. If Lizzie didm't know he was coming beforehand, his arrival would have screwed everything up. She had no way of knowing he would be out of the house or when, or for how long. If she actually and secretly expected him, and this arrangement was part of the scheme, that would have to mean Morse's involvement; yet Gross doesn't implicate him at all.

Was Lizzie also expecting her father to go out that morning? Probably; but all indications are that he came home early. Lizzie had no way of knowing this, either.

If the day had been planned, Lizzie must have either had a crystal ball or was a genius to accomodate all of these haphazard occurrences.

3.) "Add, to these propitious circumstances, the hideous heat of the day and the fact that Lizzie had been suffering from premenstrual tension for some days before the crime (with all their side effects of irritability and tendencies toward depression), and you have several possible catalysts that could have combined to give Lizzie that final emotional urgency needed to fire her into doing the deed."

The "hideous heat" myth has been smashed by contemporary evidence proving that the temperature never climbed above the 70s that morning. The only way I'll believe the weather was "hideous" would be if the humidity was high. We'll never know this because humidity was not measured in that era.

As for Lizzie axing her parents to death because she was PMS-ing, I have only this to say:
:peanut19: :peanut19: :peanut19:
Besides, how could she have planned it and have it be PMS-related at the same time?

Lizzie: "Okay, I'm going to draw up my diabolical plan of murder. Let me look at my calendar. Let's see, right around August 4th I'll be just about ready for Aunt Flo again, so that will give me the emotional fuel to hack the old folks' brains out. Looks like a plan." (*Circles date*)

I dont' think Bridget did it. She had it pretty good there, after all. If she could afford a lawyer, she must have been well-paid. I do think, though, that perhaps Bridget let the killer into the house, without realizing what would happen. As in, someone came to the door (from the mystery carriage?...) in the guise of a visitor or business associate wanting to see Andrew and Bridget let him in before retiring to her room. That would explain Bridget's resulting hysteria, her hiring of a lawyer, and her near-deathbed intended confession that never ended up happening. She wasn't guilty, but she felt it.
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Post by RayS »

Haulover @ Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:17 am wrote:ray, the radin book is not exactly "rare." are you implying there is a "phony" version of it in circulation? do you know something no one else knows? do you have a copy?
I understand that it is/was a paperback, whose acid paper would deteriorate after 40 years.
The language used, taking it down from a shelf, sounded so cliched as to make me doubt that msg and ask for what the cover has on it.
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Post by RayS »

Yes, I think the rational view is that the murders were unplanned. Why? Because NO ONE has ever produced credible evidence, or proof, to the contrary. And hiding any plans would be the rule.

Was Bridget's payoff really just "hearsay". Maybe, but it is also likely that the people around there did learn something that was never put into print like a court document. Rumors always flow from idle tongues, then or now.

Until the Jennings papers are totally revealed (never IMO), we won't learn of a "loan" to Bridget that would have to be repaid when Bridget returned from Ireland (buying a farm for her poor parents seems like what a dutiful daughter would do). The "proof" is this: Bridget left for Ireland, then returned to Canada, travelled west, then buried herself in Butte.
My surmise is these actions are best explained by this loan (not a payoff to keep quiet). Else Bridget might have just taken a train like so many other immigrants.

You are free to comment or complain. Do you have a better answer?
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Post by RayS »

KT72 @ Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:49 pm wrote:Whew!! Back from hiatus over the weekend!!

Okay, KAT: I finally read that Pearson/Radin Controversy article. Here are my thoughts:
...
I totally disagree with Gross' own theory, however, on theh following counts:
...

This, BTW, is why I believe that Bridget agreed to help the defense. The police secured good employment for her with the Taunton jailkeeper. This would have been absolutely imperative for Bridget's future livelihood.

No proof ever existed that Bridget received enough money to go to Ireland and live comfortably into her old age. That is pure hearsay.
Brown (and others?) say Bridget's testimony did NOT help the defense. What did Bridget say to help Lizzie? I believe any 'help' was what Bridget did not say. The police generally look after any witness who helps the prosecution.
When Bridget struggled with the locks, she heard a giggle from upstairs. Lizzie said that was her; but Lizzie had been in the kitchen when she called Bridget to go and open the door!!! Bridget did not contradict Lizzie, that was the help. The proof of Brown's theory is that explains the presence of another in the house, whose presence was kept secret.
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Post by KT72 »

YIKES!!!!!!!!! I did NOT mean to type "defense"; I meant to type "prosecution"!! I read everything over, too. Thanks for pointing that out, I should go and correct it :smile:
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Post by Audrey »

RayS @ Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:56 am wrote:
Haulover @ Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:17 am wrote:ray, the radin book is not exactly "rare." are you implying there is a "phony" version of it in circulation? do you know something no one else knows? do you have a copy?
I understand that it is/was a paperback, whose acid paper would deteriorate after 40 years.
The language used, taking it down from a shelf, sounded so cliched as to make me doubt that msg and ask for what the cover has on it.
Ray... I am going to break my own pledge and post to you...

Consequences be dammed...

I have never been exposed to such a dreadful person as you.

Obviously, since people tend to judge others based on their own 'moral code' you are one who tells lies and falsehoods-- Or have been badly treated by people in your life. My instinct tells me the 2nd is more likely. Of course people have been rude to you and left you and not wanted to be near you-- Your very character is off putting.

I would be VERY interested to know more about you and your life. What type of work you do, if you ever had a long term relationship with a woman or a man... If you have children or were ever in any way responsible for their upbringing or had any influence on them. I also wonder if you have any close friends or family who tolerate you on a regular basis?

You seem to think the Internet is a good excuse for mediocrity. Mediocre manners and personal skills. I believe that a person cannot be mediocre in one venue and not be mediocre in all and I think I finally have proof of that.

Perhaps the other forums you visited in the time it took you to sign up here between the closing of the old forum and this one are in need of your particular brand of charm?

Oh.. And 'cliched' is not a word. Of course you are not a professional writer.... (like your hero)
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Post by KT72 »

RayS @ Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:03 pm wrote:Was Bridget's payoff really just "hearsay". Maybe, but it is also likely that the people around there did learn something that was never put into print like a court document. Rumors always flow from idle tongues, then or now.
As far as I know, there was nothing in Bridget's estate at the time of her death that would point to her possession of any substantial amount of money.
Until the Jennings papers are totally revealed (never IMO), we won't learn of a "loan" to Bridget that would have to be repaid when Bridget returned from Ireland (buying a farm for her poor parents seems like what a dutiful daughter would do).
After the trial Bridget's whereabouts are unknown for about 4-5 years. It was believed she went back to Ireland; but there wasn't proof of this, I don't think..........

It's extremely dicey to assume the existence of specific documents; even more so to speculate on the contents of said assumed documents. Until such documents see the light of day, lack of evidence is not evidence in itself.
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Post by Haulover »

i have an early edition of the dell paperback. it is broken in half, and the pages are yellowed and pretty delicate. i used it in my last Hatchet article. i just wanted to clarify the existence of it. others here have this same edition. (bought it used for about $1 years ago; there are better preserved copies of it around.)
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Post by 1bigsteve »

Haulover @ Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:56 pm wrote:i have an early edition of the dell paperback. it is broken in half, and the pages are yellowed and pretty delicate. i used it in my last Hatchet article. i just wanted to clarify the existence of it. others here have this same edition. (bought it used for about $1 years ago; there are better preserved copies of it around.)

Red cover with a picture of a newspaper and modern day axe on it? Yep. Got that one. Mine is in fair shape still.

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Post by Kat »

This may be out of context by now, but I recall Bridget was upset at being known as working at the jail and said it did not help her reputation to receive her mail addressed to her there. From this my impression has been that I don't think she was happy about that job. Maybe she also felt under scrutiny, or watched?

I can't seem to find the reference tho.
I looked in Boston Globe and most of the Evening Standard (but not all), and the Knowlton Papers.
Anybody have a source?
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Post by Harry »

Bridget's comments regarding working at the New Bedford jail are in the Witness Statements, Harrington's notes, pages 21-22:

"October 1, 1892

Bridget Sullivan. “Yes, I left New Bedford for good. I did not like the way the papers spoke of me, said I was in New Bedford jail. And I got a postal card from the Court, requesting me to call for my witness fees, and that was addressed to New Bedford jail. I did not like this, so I thought I would show them I would not stay any longer. I think I will try to get a place here, through Mrs. McKenney’s Agency; if not, I may go to Newport R. I. and work in the hotel where I was employed before. I have relatives in So. Bethlehem, and as I worked there before, I may go again.” In a joking manner she said she may go back to Ireland. ..."

What is curious is the date. The first line says she "left New Bedford for good." I don't know how that can be as she was still there at the start of the trial, 8 months later. Could she have actually left for a short time and the police again requested her presence? We do know that Trickey was under possible indictment for attempting to lure Bridget away.

I've always been curious about how they could have held her for so long, if indeed she was held against her will, without a charge. If I remember correctly, she and Uncle John had bonds posted. Uncle John was allowed to return to Iowa (in December 1892) upon his promise to return for the trial. Obviously though, Bridget was a more important witness to the prosecution than Uncle John.
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Post by RayS »

From "Audrey @ Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:51 pm
...
Ray... I am going to break my own pledge and post to you...
Consequences be dammed...
I have never been exposed to such a dreadful person as you.

Obviously, since people tend to judge others based on their own 'moral code' you are one who tells lies and falsehoods-- Or have been badly treated by people in your life. My instinct tells me the 2nd is more likely. Of course people have been rude to you and left you and not wanted to be near you-- Your very character is off putting.

I would be VERY interested to know more about you and your life. What type of work you do, if you ever had a long term relationship with a woman or a man... If you have children or were ever in any way responsible for their upbringing or had any influence on them. I also wonder if you have any close friends or family who tolerate you on a regular basis?

You seem to think the Internet is a good excuse for mediocrity. Mediocre manners and personal skills. I believe that a person cannot be mediocre in one venue and not be mediocre in all and I think I finally have proof of that.

Perhaps the other forums you visited in the time it took you to sign up here between the closing of the old forum and this one are in need of your particular brand of charm?

Oh.. And 'cliched' is not a word. Of course you are not a professional writer.... (like your hero)
Yes, I am not a professional writer. I'll admit to that. Do NOT assume that typing errors (not worth correcting) bespeak of personal problems.

YOUR assumptions about "other forums" show you are speaking with out any proof. Will you admit to that? (I do not know of any other forums.) YOU do remind me of some of the posters on that copycat forum that self-destructed over 3 years ago.

Bottom line is that you have NOT mentioned anything about the Radin book that you reached for. THAT is why I questioned your statement. When you first joined this forum over two years ago you made a point of questioning and making nasty comments about my msgs. Pardon me for following this example. (There were others.)
You also accused me of "lies and falsehoods". Where are they?

And if I am such a horrible person, why do you want to know more about me? Was that an honest question, or a disguised insult?
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Post by RayS »

KT72 @ Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:55 pm wrote:...
As far as I know, there was nothing in Bridget's estate at the time of her death that would point to her possession of any substantial amount of money.
...
After the trial Bridget's whereabouts are unknown for about 4-5 years. It was believed she went back to Ireland; but there wasn't proof of this, I don't think..........
It's extremely dicey to assume the existence of specific documents; even more so to speculate on the contents of said assumed documents. Until such documents see the light of day, lack of evidence is not evidence in itself.
THAT is the best thing said so far. I totally agree. If we followed this rule all we would do is post the Trial Testimony. Now wouldn't that be fun!!! We all should know that reports in newspapers are not reliable, then or now. Jurors are always told to avoid newspaper news, its just sensationalism.

Bridget's disappearance for 4-5 years is best explained by a trip home. I assume that public opinion, who were there and knew Bridget's friends, would be more likely on the mark.
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Post by diana »

The following is from Bridget's testimony at the trial and probably relates to the bond you were talking about, Harry.

The defence appears to be raising the point that she had been in the prosecution's camp, so to speak, since shortly after the murders -- what with Hilliard and Detective Seaver as her sureties and visits from Knowlton.

Q. Where have you been living since you left the Borden house?
A. In New Bedford.

Q. Where?
A. Mrs. Hunt's.
Q. Where does Mrs. Hunt live?
A. On Court Street.
Q. What is Mr. Hunt's occupation?
A. Keeper.
Q. Keeper of what?
A. Of the jail house.
Q. Then you have been at the jail, have you, helping work all the time?
A. Not in the jail.
Q. I don't mean in the jail, but at the keeper's house?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you have been there all the time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And are still there employed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You came right over from Fall River?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And have been there ever since?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were under a recognizance to appear here, were you, to appear here as a witness?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was the city marshal of Fall River one of your sureties?
A. Yes, sir; as I understand.
Q. And was the other one of the detectives, Mr. Seaver?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you have been in the family of Mr. Hunt, the keeper of the jail, all the time since?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I suppose you have not had much talk with either Miss Lizzie or Miss Emma since that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or anybody representing them?
A. No, sir.
Q. You have seen some people that were on the other side of the case, haven't you?

A. I don't know what you mean.
Q. You have seen Mr. Knowlton since?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where?
A. At Mr. Hunt's.
" (Source: Bridget, Trial)
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Post by Harry »

Thanks Diana! That's good information. We can always count on you.

I found this in Rebello, p273:

"Bridget Sullivan's Witness Fees

District Attorney Knowlton, at the close of the trial, asked that Bridget Sullivan be allowed witness fees for the "whole time during her alleged incarceration as an impounded witness at the house of correction." Chief Justice Mason was about to honor Knowlton's request when Simeon Borden, Jr., clerk of court, pointed out to the court's satisfaction that Bridget had never been surrendered from the posted sureties and had been receiving wages at the house of correction as a domestic. "It was reckoned at about $3 a week for something like 40 weeks," Fall River Daily Herald, Friday, June 23, 1893: 7."

'Something like 40 weeks' is roughly the 10 months that Lizzie was in jail.

That makes it more curious as to why in Harrington's notes, Bridget said she left.

I think Bridget was getting only $2.50 a week at the Bordens. So she got a raise! :smile:
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Post by DWilly »

Harry @ Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:26 pm wrote:Thanks Diana! That's good information. We can always count on you.

I found this in Rebello, p273:

"Bridget Sullivan's Witness Fees

District Attorney Knowlton, at the close of the trial, asked that Bridget Sullivan be allowed witness fees for the "whole time during her alleged incarceration as an impounded witness at the house of correction." Chief Justice Mason was about to honor Knowlton's request when Simeon Borden, Jr., clerk of court, pointed out to the court's satisfaction that Bridget had never been surrendered from the posted sureties and had been receiving wages at the house of correction as a domestic. "It was reckoned at about $3 a week for something like 40 weeks," Fall River Daily Herald, Friday, June 23, 1893: 7."

'Something like 40 weeks' is roughly the 10 months that Lizzie was in jail.

That makes it more curious as to why in Harrington's notes, Bridget said she left.

I think Bridget was getting only $2.50 a week at the Bordens. So she got a raise! :smile:
I'm curious about that term "impounded witness." What exactly does that mean in this case? Were they holding Bridget against her will? Were they afraid she'd flee? Why?

im·pound (m-pound)
tr.v. im·pound·ed, im·pound·ing, im·pounds
1. To confine in or as if in a pound: capture and impound stray dogs.
2. To seize and retain in legal custody: impounding disputed electoral ballots.3. To set aside in a fund rather than spend as prescribed: a governor who impounded monies designated for use by cities.
4. To accumulate and store in a reservoir: By damming the stream, the engineers impounded its waters for irrigation.
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Post by Wordweaver »

Audrey @ Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:57 pm wrote:this thread has, of course, caused me to pull my Radin off the shelf and being to re-read it!

Anyone else?
Oh yes. Radin can indeed write, and he's correct that motive isn't enough, but I still don't quite think that Bridget did the murder.

For the record: Mine is an ex-library copy, probably re-bound, since it has an ugly mustard-colored binding.
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Post by Wordweaver »

DWilly @ Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:44 pm wrote:
Harry @ Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:26 pm wrote: I'm curious about that term "impounded witness." What exactly does that mean in this case? Were they holding Bridget against her will? Were they afraid she'd flee? Why?
I am not an expert on 19th-century law. I do know that even now, if one side or the other of a criminal case believes a witness who possesses relevant and important information may flee, the witness can be detained as a material witness--that is, arrested and forced to post bond or stay in jail.

Bridget certainly possessed relevant and important information. Not only had she been living at 92 Second Street for several years, and she'd had a chance to observe the family closely. She was also one of two surviving people known to be in the house (or on the grounds) during the murders.

Among the criteria for determining if a witness is likely to flee include whether s/he has ties to the community, such as a family, a job, etc. Bridget, who was from Ireland and had previously worked in Pennsylvania, had no family in Fall River and now didn't have a job. By hiring her as a maid, the authorities saved the cost of keeping her in jail, gave her something to do, and kept her well in sight so she couldn't go west or back to Ireland. The authorities may have feared that she might be bribed not to testify; detaining her could stymie such a plan.

I believe Bridget did have to post bond, but I'm at work and don't have my references with me. I'm sure someone can speak up about that, though.
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Post by Allen »

Wordweaver @ Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:02 pm wrote:

Among the criteria for determining if a witness is likely to flee include whether s/he has ties to the community, such as a family, a job, etc. Bridget, who was from Ireland and had previously worked in Pennsylvania, had no family in Fall River and now didn't have a job. By hiring her as a maid, the authorities saved the cost of keeping her in jail, gave her something to do, and kept her well in sight so she couldn't go west or back to Ireland. The authorities may have feared that she might be bribed not to testify; detaining her could stymie such a plan.

I believe Bridget did have to post bond, but I'm at work and don't have my references with me. I'm sure someone can speak up about that, though.
I think that makes perfect sense. I agree also that she probably would've had a hard time finding a job in the Fall River area at that time, other than the one given to her at the jail. She was a domestic, and she needed a job to survive.

The visits from Knowlton, in my opinion, were probably just because he wanted to make sure he was getting the story about what happened that day as completely and accurately as he could. This may have required further questioning to see if her story changed, or if she remembered something she had not before? Bridget really didn't know anyone in Fall River, so who was going to be reliable enough to vouch for her and take the legal responsiblity and be her 'surety' ? I think this is why the two officers took charge of her in that capacity. But I can see how the defense could've used these two facts to try and paint the picture that she was in the pocket of the prosecution.
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Post by Haulover »

writers seems to agree that radin is a writer. i think that's interesting. actually, his first chapter, his summary of The Legend, is proof enough of it. there's a reason that stefani chose a long excerpt from him for her site -- it's all there in short form and good order.

i'm into angela carter now. i read her the whole time i was in miami. odd choice for beach reading, but i enjoyed it.
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Post by Kat »

Thank you Diana and Harry! I appreciate the sources! You know that makes me happy. :smile:
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Post by mappam »

Question = Could Bridget have been pregnant?

She was "ill" in the morning (morning sickness). The hormones would be "different" (rages?)

She could have been "found out" by Abby - hence the attack
Or found out by Lizzie and blackmailed into helping?

She did "disappear" for awhile - to have a baby or did she "loose the babe"?

Is there ANY indication that she WASN'T "with child"?

Just a thought I have not seen presented before - did I miss it somewhere?
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Post by Allen »

Well, I think if Bridget was pregnant, it would've been found out. She was under pretty close supervision up until the trial.
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Post by Kat »

It's hard to prove a negative but what comes to mind is the false Trickey-McHenry story where it was broadcast that Lizzie was pregnant. Just as a thought about that, it seems to me that if there was any intimation that was the case with Bridget, she most probably would have been on the front pages of the newspaper rather than Borden's daughter.
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Post by RayS »

Kat @ Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:24 am wrote:It's hard to prove a negative but what comes to mind is the false Trickey-McHenry story where it was broadcast that Lizzie was pregnant. Just as a thought about that, it seems to me that if there was any intimation that was the case with Bridget, she most probably would have been on the front pages of the newspaper rather than Borden's daughter.
Judging by the sensationalist tabloid press & TV, isn't that what you'd expect to sell a good many newspapers?
I often peak into the 'National Enquirer' when I get a chance. Too often the headlines do not match the story inside. My favorite edition was the one with a picture of a bruised Nicole on the front page, with 'simulated photo' in small print on the bottom. Many complained, but the Enquirer said "we warned you". No comments on the practice of 'Time' of doing the same thing often. Remember their picture of OJ after the murder?

Given the photo-editing available today, you can't even believe a motion picture (since the 1990s).
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Post by mappam »

I guess I was thinking along the lines of - Bridget could have "lost" the baby. And it would help explain a motive for her to kill Abby. If Abby threatened to expose her or fire her because of this 'condition'.

There are soo many aspects of this whole case that are soo thought provoking - all the what if's and why for's.
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Post by RayS »

Radin was a professional writer, he knew that "a new solution" would sell his book. He was right to re-investigate, but wrong to point to Bridget.

Didn't his book talk about "the children of Bridget"? Was this ever verified?
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Post by Audrey »

RayS @ Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:30 pm wrote:Radin was a professional writer, he knew that "a new solution" would sell his book. He was right to re-investigate, but wrong to point to Bridget.

Didn't his book talk about "the children of Bridget"? Was this ever verified?
Radin/Brown 'New solution' selling books... Gets kind of blurred there doesn't it?
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Post by Allen »

I don't think there was ever any record of Briget having children. Rebello makes no mention of her having any children in the profile he provides for her in his book. If we go by Bridget's testimony at trial, when she is asked her age, then in 1905 when she supposedly married John Sullivan she would have been about 39.
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Re: where did Bridget reside and work after she left Second Street?

Post by Reasonwhy »

diana wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:42 pm The following is from Bridget's testimony at the trial and probably relates to the bond you were talking about, Harry.

The defence appears to be raising the point that she had been in the prosecution's camp, so to speak, since shortly after the murders -- what with Hilliard and Detective Seaver as her sureties and visits from Knowlton.

Q. Where have you been living since you left the Borden house?
A. In New Bedford.

Q. Where?
A. Mrs. Hunt's.
Q. Where does Mrs. Hunt live?
A. On Court Street.
Q. What is Mr. Hunt's occupation?
A. Keeper.
Q. Keeper of what?
A. Of the jail house.
Q. Then you have been at the jail, have you, helping work all the time?
A. Not in the jail.
Q. I don't mean in the jail, but at the keeper's house?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you have been there all the time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And are still there employed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You came right over from Fall River?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And have been there ever since?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were under a recognizance to appear here, were you, to appear here as a witness?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was the city marshal of Fall River one of your sureties?
A. Yes, sir; as I understand.
Q. And was the other one of the detectives, Mr. Seaver?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you have been in the family of Mr. Hunt, the keeper of the jail, all the time since?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I suppose you have not had much talk with either Miss Lizzie or Miss Emma since that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or anybody representing them?
A. No, sir.
Q. You have seen some people that were on the other side of the case, haven't you?

A. I don't know what you mean.
Q. You have seen Mr. Knowlton since?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where?
A. At Mr. Hunt's.
" (Source: Bridget, Trial)
Interesting testimony about Bridget’s living/employment situation during the trial…
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Re: So, who thinks Radin was right?...........

Post by camgarsky4 »

Kat -- I think the info Reason reposted above is the best I had on this topic. We know the testimony above is missing the relative that Bridget stayed with immediately after leaving the Borden's. So a fair chance that there might be another brief stop between the relative (drawing of home you posted on other thread) and the Hunt's. But also a possibility she did go direct to the Hunt's from Fall River.
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Re: So, who thinks Radin was right?...........

Post by Kat »

Yes thanks you guys for reviving this thread for the answer about where Bridget was and when, while the different legal issues were being resolved.
But still, *immediately* after the crime she stayed across the street at Millers or Bowen’s and Morse had to go get her each day until after the funeral Saturday, I believe. Sunday was the first day Bridget did not come and Lizzie picked that day to burn her dress.

Edit here after I next post Bridget at trial: I forgot Bridget came back Friday and stayed over. I guess she was needed to help with the funeral and some cleanup, and cooking(?)
Last edited by Kat on Thu Sep 07, 2023 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So, who thinks Radin was right?...........

Post by Kat »

Here is Bridget at trial:
Q. A word or two about your present residence. You understand that you are detained
as a witness by the Commonwealth in the place in which you now are?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you been permitted to go in and out evenings?
A. I go in and out all I please.

Q. And live in the family of the sheriff, the keeper of the jail? And do the work in that
household, do you?
A. I do the cooking up to this time.

Q. Did you remain at the house after the homicide any length of time?
A. I stayed there. I went out Thursday night and slept out in Mrs. Miller's girl's
house, and Friday night I slept in the house.

Q. You mean Mrs. Miller's house with the girl?
A. With the servant. I slept with her Thursday night.

Q. On Thursday night?
A. Yes, sir, and I came back Friday morning, stayed there all through the time and did
the work and Friday night I went out and came back and slept in the house.

Q. In the Borden house?
A. Yes, sir, and Saturday night I left for good as I thought, and came back Monday
and Mr. Miller said I should not leave the house until he came and took me out.

Q. You did not stay there Saturday night?
A. No, sir, -- or Sunday night.

Q. You were not there Sunday morning?
A. No, sir.

Q. Were you there Sunday at all for any part of the day?
A. No, sir, I came there Monday morning.
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Re: So, who thinks Radin was right?...........

Post by Kat »

Can you believe she cooked for the family at the jail??? I’m shuddering….and they must have been confident she would not poison them!
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Re: So, who thinks Radin was right?...........

Post by camgarsky4 »

Mr. Ford, you need to add some fine Irish recipes to your cookbook in honor of Bridget's apparently fine cooking which the Hunt's enjoyed for around 9 months!! I like that Southard Miller was responsible enough to escort Bridget from the house on her final day that Monday. I imagine the crowd was getting boisterous, wanting an arrest to be made.
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Re: So, who thinks Radin was right?...........

Post by Reasonwhy »

Southard Miller has always interested me. He knew Andrew extremely well, having worked with him for so many years. Miller’s refusal to get involved in the case begs some questions: Did he just not want to be drawn into horror? Did he have divided loyalties to his neighbors across the way? One wonders how well he knew the rest of the Borden family; what was his opinion of them? I believe I remember (I can’t check it just now) that he weighed in on the sanity survey, I think saying he knew of no insanity? And, as he was Dr. Bowen’s father-in-law, and lived just a wall away — in the other half of the house — from him and Southard Miller’s daughter (Phoebe, Mrs. Bowen), one wonders what discussions might have taken place among that family. Perhaps Southard was the soul of discretion, there, too.
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Re: So, who thinks Radin was right?...........

Post by camgarsky4 »

Jennings Journals page 188.

Southard Miller interview by Arthur Phillips. "He (AJB) never would have told anyone if he was going to make a will. Never heard him say a word about his family affairs."

My assumption has been that Miller and Borden were stereotypical, conservative older businessmen who kept their inner thoughts to themselves and didn't expose 'weaknesses' with others.

Side note and not sure where to look to double check my recollection, but my memory is telling me that Andrew was a witness to Miller's will, or something along those lines. Hopefully I didn't just create a myth.
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Re: So, who thinks Radin was right?...........

Post by Kat »

Miller acted very strangely about the whole occurrence , in my mind. Upon Bridget's visit for a Dr but got Miller instead, she wanted to blurt out what had happened and he made her wait, grabbed a passerby (Coggeshall?), and said tell him, because he didn’t want to * be a witness*. Later he claimed he did not go over to the Borden house, and yet he was seen in the yard rubbernecking like all the others, by Donnelly and Clarkson.

He seemed to me to be pretty savvy, but used to giving orders, and being unquestioned and obeyed.
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Re: So, who thinks Radin was right?...........

Post by WFordII »

Hey, Camgarsky! Yes, I do have some Irish recipes in the book. I should have the manuscript to the publishers by Monday. So excited!!
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