Announcing the birth of Mondo Lizzie Borden

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:55 pm

Stefani:

On the Flickr photo site on mondo there's a photo of Fall River, but not Fall River. Is that Providence?

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:54 pm

Thanks for catching that! Inadvertent mistake. Of course it is Providence. I made the change. If anybody finds any other mistakes along the way, don't hesitate to tell me. I would rather it be correct!

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:48 pm

As seen on Mondo:

Good for you Stefani: Glad to see someone standing up for Lizzie and publicly proclaiming that there is no proof that Lizzie had a lesbian affair with Nance O'Neil.

There is no proof of that or that Lizzie was a lesbian. These are scenarios conjured up over the years by so called "Borden Scholars" who probably have hidden Freudian desires themselves and express them by placing Lizzie on the same train.

If you are guessing at it for sake of discussion or want to use it in fiction, well that's your right, but to outright proclaim that this is Lizzie's Lover or that Lizzie was infact, Lesbian, does Lizzie or Lesbians no service.

Don't get me wrong, this in not a social comment on the Gay Life. But, if I were gay I may be offended by the constant referral to Lizzie as a Lesbian, as if it were a disgraceful thing. What happens behind closed doors among two adults is of no business to anyone whether religous or governmental. And unless anyone has proof that Lizzie was gay, let them all stop guessing and making proclamations that Nance O'neil was Lizzie's lover. And if she was......., good for her.

But about the Photo on ebay,

this is around the 5th time it has been on; always for 75 dollars. I dare say that the seller is trying to ride the coat tails of the recent Lizzie books that sold for premimum. Strike while the poker is hot, sort-of-speak. But Nance's photo needs to sell as a Nance O'Neil item not a Lizzie item. Though the connection is interesting it would be of value to few Lizzie collectors, at least not at $75.

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:33 pm

mbhenty @ Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:48 pm wrote:As seen on Mondo:

Good for you Stefani: Glad to see someone standing up for Lizzie and publicly proclaiming that there is no proof that Lizzie had a lesbian affair with Nance O'Neil.

There is no proof of that or that Lizzie was a lesbian. These are scenarios conjured up over the years by so called "Borden Scholars" who probably have hidden Freudian desires themselves and express them by placing Lizzie on the same train. If you are guessing at it for sake of discussion or want to use it in fiction, well that's your right, but to outright proclaim that this is Lizzie's Lover or that Lizzie was infact, Lesbian, does Lizzie or Lesbians no service.

Don't get me wrong, this in not a social comment on the Gay Life. But, if I were gay I may be offended by the constant referral to Lizzie as a Lesbian, as if it were a disgraceful thing. What happens behind closed doors among two adults is of no business to anyone whether religous or governmental. And unless anyone has proof that Lizzie was gay, let them all stop guessing and making proclamations that Nance O'neil was Lizzie's lover. And if she was......., good for her.

I agree that there is no proof that Lizzie was a lesbian and I have no problem with people pointing that out. What does bother me is when people point out that there is no proof she was gay then turn right around and act as if there was proof she was straight. There isn't any proof of that either. Some posters seem to think that being straight is a given fact. It's not. We don't know what she was or wasn't. We can only give our opinions on the matter.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:18 pm

I am not sure that someone else on the forum hasn't already asked the seller of the Nance photo about the lesbian declaration, but I decided to write them anyway. Hopefully there will be a response.

Hello,

This is great picture of Nance. What is your proof that Nance and Lizzie Borden were lesbian lovers ? I have searched, but have found nothing definite so far. Would you mind please, directing me to where/how you found this information to be true ?

Thank you very much !
Tracy

Tracy...

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:40 pm

Right you are DWilly. There is not proof that she was Gay or she was Straight. My contention is not that she is being found gay or that others are claiming her to be straight, but that we do not know one way or the other. I make this claim in connection to the Ebay offering which Stefani speaks about in Mondo, and which is being offered on ebay as we speak, that being, the Nance O'Neil photo where the seller quotes: "LESBIAN LOVER OF THE LEGENDARY ACCUSED MURDERESS LIZZIE BORDEN".

My objection is with the sellers affirmation about Lizzie's sexuality.

Was Lizzie Straight----------? I don't know? Was she Gay--------? I don't know, but neither does anyone else.

But there are those who claim she was. Ryckebusch hints to it, Hunter wrote fiction about it and even David Salvaggio called her a miserable and lonely lesbian. So? Everyone has a right to express their belief or guesses about Lizzie's sexuatily.

My objection in to the Add on ebay which appears to make a concrete claim to sell an item, a claim that has never been proven one way or the other.

But you are right DWilly. There is no proof or is it a given fact that she was Straight either.

Thanks for your input.

{ edit } Oh yes, DWilly. If I was a teenager I would have a crush on Griet.

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:46 pm

DWilly @ Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:33 pm wrote:
I agree that there is no proof that Lizzie was a lesbian and I have no problem with people pointing that out. What does bother me is when people point out that there is no proof she was gay then turn right around and act as if there was proof she was straight. There isn't any proof of that either. Some posters seem to think that being straight is a given fact. It's not. We don't know what she was or wasn't. We can only give our opinions on the matter.

I disagree. I think one should and does assume heterosexuality unless proof is offered otherwise. The percentage of people who are gay is between 5 and 10%. The odds a person is straight is then about 90%. We cannot offer opinions about a person's sexual orientation as it is really none of our business.

Some theorize and use Lizzie's friendship with theatre folk and her spinsterhood to assume that is code for lesbian. It isn't. As I noted in my talk two years ago in Fall River for the Fall River Historical Society and the First CC, theatre people are a tolerant and accepting group. If Lizzie was interested in them, they would be interested in her, no questions asked about her past. They might be the one group that would take her in without judgment---even though she is shunned by the city of her birth and her former friends.

So her hanging out with Nance doesn't mean anything other than she liked theatre people. And that is all we can assume.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:53 pm

Perhaps Lizzie was forward thinking enough to realize that a person's sexual preference is merely a small part of who they are...

Maybe she didn't even know of the rumers that Nance was a lesbian.

Gays are not like wolves-- they do not travel in packs.

A dear friend of mine is an office manager. I am not an office manager.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:58 pm

Hey, I just realized, I'm a male spinster. Hmmmm? What could be the proper term.??? (be nice now.)

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:12 pm

Audrey @ Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:53 pm wrote:
A dear friend of mine is an office manager. I am not an office manager.

zactly! Nor is your friend defined by being an office manager.

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:53 pm

Stefani @ Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:46 pm wrote:
DWilly @ Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:33 pm wrote:
I agree that there is no proof that Lizzie was a lesbian and I have no problem with people pointing that out. What does bother me is when people point out that there is no proof she was gay then turn right around and act as if there was proof she was straight. There isn't any proof of that either. Some posters seem to think that being straight is a given fact. It's not. We don't know what she was or wasn't. We can only give our opinions on the matter.
I disagree. I think one should and does assume heterosexuality unless proof is offered otherwise. The percentage of people who are gay is between 5 and 10%. The odds a person is straight is then about 90%. We cannot offer opinions about a person's sexual orientation as it is really none of our business.

Some theorize and use Lizzie's friendship with theatre folk and her spinsterhood to assume that is code for lesbian. It isn't. As I noted in my talk two years ago in Fall River for the Fall River Historical Society and the First CC, theatre people are a tolerant and accepting group. If Lizzie was interested in them, they would be interested in her, no questions asked about her past. They might be the one group that would take her in without judgment---even though she is shunned by the city of her birth and her former friends.

So her hanging out with Nance doesn't mean anything other than she liked theatre people. And that is all we can assume.

While I do agree with you that many people tend to assume someone is straight I disagree with you saying we "should" assume someone is straight. Why assume anything? To me that shows bias. Are there other things I should "assume" about other people? What happens when you turn out to be wrong about the person?

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:06 pm

I think my wording was a bit heavy-handed. What I meant, and didn't say properly, was that one shouldn't assume one way or the other. But, those that do pronounce as fact that Lizzie Borden was a lesbian, and her lover was Nance O'Neil, need to provide proof.

Statistically, most people are straight, but that doesn't mean that we should assume all people are straight. Nor should we think that anyone who is in the theatre or hangs out with theatre people is gay.

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:10 pm

theebmonique @ Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:18 pm wrote:I am not sure that someone else on the forum hasn't already asked the seller of the Nance photo about the lesbian declaration, but I decided to write them anyway. Hopefully there will be a response.

Hello,

This is great picture of Nance. What is your proof that Nance and Lizzie Borden were lesbian lovers ? I have searched, but have found nothing definite so far. Would you mind please, directing me to where/how you found this information to be true ?

Thank you very much !
Tracy

Tracy...

Again, I don't mind anyone questioning claims that Lizzie was gay. That's fine. People are right there is no proof but what gets me is how these same posters never question all these wild claims about Lizzie being straight. I don't see anyone getting their underwear in a wad when someone claims (with no proof) that Lizzie was involved with:

David Anthony---No proof.

The Ice Cream boy---Nothing there

Some guy off the streets---Totally in some posters imagination and no proof any where else.

My main point being is that these wacky theories are based on the assumption and assumption alone that she had to be straight. Despite the fact there is nothing to back that up.

Now, let me be clear that per se that would not bother me. It's only that some posters get so bent out of shape when someone says Lizzie was gay and they're so bothered by that and yet they say nothing when it is only assumed she was straight.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:27 pm

I think there have been claims as to whether or not Lizzie was involved with David Anthony. The discussion around The Ruby Cameron Story was very involved and pretty intense at times, if I remember correctly.

I think when a CLAIM is made as to Lizzie IS THIS...Lizzie IS THAT...the CLAIM should be backed up with some kind of "provenance". This would apply to any claim where there could have more than one or multiple possibilities...not just sexual preference.

I don't think anyone here has specifically said that being straight is good and being gay is bad, or that straight is normal and gay is not. IMO, Normal, as far as sexual preference goes, is whatever you are. Actually, do we really need to use the word "normal" ? You are what you are...and whatever that is...IS OK.

Tracy...

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:43 pm

I do not see how we can avoid assuming people are straight until they give us indication to think otherwise.

Nor do I think it is sensible, possible or wise to assign 'bias' to each and every thought we have or thing we do. There is simply no argument that the majority of people are heterosexual. I am often amused at how gay people can be just as offended to be thought of as straight as straight people are to be thought of as gay.

IF Lizzie was gay then I hope she did have a satisfying sex life with Nance or whoever... Everyone deserves that.

Whatever the case-- Nance is still getting money through Lizzie. (albeit indirectly) That photo would garner interest from Nance fans--- but not as much interest if it were not for the Lizzie connection.

I wonder if it would sell at a lower price?

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:48 pm

And as far as proof one way or another-- we will never have it.

Even if Lizzie were to be alive today unless she were to make a statement of someone were to sneak into her house with a video camera.....

(And then we would probably demand that Mother Theresa, the Pope and maybe Ghandi signed affidavits that they saw it being filmed and nothing was digitally edited and manipulated later)

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:57 pm

I still think Griet is Hot

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:14 pm

If someone claims that Lizzie had a lesbian lover (in order to sell a picture of Nance), I think they should back it up.

I am a "spinster" as well. That may give some people an idea that I am gay...or just too bitchy. I know the truth and that's all that matters.

I am an admitted LIZbian...but then aren't we all ? (...being as we are posting in this forum)

Tracy...

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:50 am

Hi, guys! Thought I'd jump in here.
First, I love Mondo Lizzie: it provides a spot for Stefani to be herself, untrammeled by administrative responsibility; it also makes a perfect repository for "Lizzie Light" items--the stuff you can't quite get an article from, the stuff that would jar the scholarly aspects of the Hatchet. As for splintering? Nawwww! It might bring people in who were put off by the established discussions of the Forum. People may stumble onto the Blog, and get enough info to feel more confident about taking the plunge in here. (And from here to the Hatchet!)

I was also pleased to see the photo debate reopened. It may never be settled, but the Gallery has given it a thumbs down for some time, while the Fall River P. D. website presents it as authentic. I think the blog is a perfect place for the photo and the issue. They don't get buried as they would in here. (Is that what you call burying the hatchet?) Instead, images and opinions can be grouped together and found instantly.

Finally, as for the question of the blogging form, a blog is as good or as bad as the blogger. In Stef's case, the quality is as extraordinarily high as we could expect from any venture we have from her. Very best luck with it, Stefani! I look forward to more entries, and look forward to putting in my 10 cents worth from time to time.

--Lyddie

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:38 pm

OK...here's the respose I got from the seller of the Nance O'Neill photo on eBay (for $75). I inquired as to how the seller KNEW Nance and Lizzie had had a lesbian relationship, and the reply was as follows:

Subject: Re: Question for item #110004073596 - *LIZZIE BORDEN'S LOVER RARE PHOTO: THE ...
Date: 7/6/2006 1:38:48 PM Mountain Standard Time
From: AuthorJBSA
Reply To:
To: TheeBMonique

Hi Tracy, Just back from four days in Philadelphia. We can't know for sure, of course, but the friendship seems to have been strong and the allegation that they had a relationship has passed down through time. All best wishes. Sincerely, Michael A. Morrison

I notice that the seller revised the description a bit earlier today to say "allegedly", in regards to a lesbian relationship between Nance and Lizzie. Hmmm...interesting.

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:07 pm

Thank you for following up on that Tracy!

william · Post by **william** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:20 am

Good one Tracy!

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:21 pm

Was Lizzie a lesbian? No facts exist for that claim, to my knowledge.
We do know that "Nance O'Neil" was a lesbian (Spiering's book) and there was a friendship with Lizzie. But I think Nance played Lizzie for a sucker and borrowed thousands from her w/o repaying. That is another reason for Lizzie to dump Nance.
In real life, have you ever known a student from school who "came out" or at work? Did you dump them as well?
Don't overlook the fact that I would do the same if they were merely arrested for drug use, embezzlement, or even attacking Arnold Brown's book (the worst crime of all).
I still have a senxe of humor.

LizzieB_board_game · Post by **LizzieB_board_game** » Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:51 pm

I found your blog first, then this page. It is a good-looking site. Keep up the fine work!

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Announcing the birth of Mondo Lizzie Borden

Re: Announcing the birth of Mondo Lizzie Borden