MENTAL ILLNESS

This the place to have frank, but cordial, discussions of the Lizzie Borden case

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Oscar
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Post by Oscar »

Victoria Lincoln wrote a whole book based around the epilepsy theory. It seems rediculous to me that someone having an epileptic seizure would be able to cary out such organized and planful behavior like a double homocide.
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Post by Shelley »

I agree- and so do experts and medical people who are trained in such disorders I have asked. It might be possible to have a petit mal seizure, and lose track of that interlude when it was all over, -but to be perfectly fine in between, and suddenly have a repeat seizure, forget everything again, and be normal within minutes after is really stretching the envelope of possibility and likelihood.
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Post by Oscar »

I believe people to be generally disorientated and confused after coming out of a seizure and certainly are not operating with total cognition while having one. The commisioner of these murders had to have amazing forethought, composure, and where-with-all to carry out what they did and leave no evidence of their guilt.
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Post by snokkums »

Shelley @ Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:39 pm wrote:I agree- and so do experts and medical people who are trained in such disorders I have asked. It might be possible to have a petit mal seizure, and lose track of that interlude when it was all over, -but to be perfectly fine in between, and suddenly have a repeat seizure, forget everything again, and be normal within minutes after is really stretching the envelope of possibility and likelihood.
Maybe thats the type of seizure Lizzie had, if she did suffer from this diesease?
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Post by Shelley »

If she did have epilepsy, yes, but the point they make is that to have TWO separate episodes within a 2 hour span and be perfectly fine in between and after- is really pushing the limits of believability. I also imagine the defense would have had a doctor's evidence right to hand and ready that Lizzie did have such a disorder, which would have made a sympathetic defense if they needed to play that card.
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Post by RayS »

Raymond Chandler's famous novel "The Big Sleep" invented "epilepsy" as a cause for murder. Totally fictional, a cop-out that ruins the story IMO. In fact, this rich heiress killed because she knew she could get away with it. Hall & Oates used this in a song: "You can depend on your old man's money".

I'm not an expert. But I wonder if there is any authenticated case of a murder due to epilepsy? Those who are reading medical or legal books can best answer this, with a citation of the book.
Best if published since the 1970s so it would be available to others.
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Post by Allen »

From Eighty Years and More Reminiscences, 1815-1897 by Elizabeth Cady Stanton page 213-214. This takes place in about 1860-61.

While all this was going on publicly, an equally trying experience was progressing, day by day, behind the scenes. Miss Anthony had been instrumental in helping a much abused mother, with her child, to escape from a husband who had immured her in an insane asylum. The wife belonged to one of the first families of New York, her brother being a United States senator, and the husband, also, a man of position; a large circle of friends and aquaintances was interested in the result. Though she was incarcerated in an insane asylum for eighteen months, yet members of her family again and again testified she was not insane. Miss Anthony, knowing that she was not, and believing fully that the unhappy mother was a victim of a conspiracy, would not reveal her hiding place.

Knowing the confidence of Miss Anthony felt in the wisdom of Mr. Garrison and Mr. Phillips, they were implored to use their influence with her to give up the fugitives. Letters and telegrams, persuasions, arguments, and warnings from Mr. Garrison and Mr. Phillips, and the Senator on one side, and from Lydia Mott, Mrs. ELizabeth F. Ellet, and Abby Hopper Gibbons, on the other, poured upon her, day after day; but Miss Anthony remained immovable, although she knew that she was defying and violating the law and might be arrested at any moment on the platform. We had known so many aggravated cases of this kind that, in daily counsel, we resolved that this woman should not be recaptured if it were possible to prevent it. To us it looked as imperative a duty to shield the sane mother, who had been torn from a family of little children and doomed to the companionship of lunatics, and to aid her in fleeing to a place of safety, as to help a fugitive from slavery to Canada. In both cases an unjust law was violated; in both cases the supposed owners of the victims were defied; hence, in point of law and morals, the act was the same in both cases. The result proved the wisdom of Miss Anthony's decision, as all with whom Mrs. P. came into contact with for years afterward, expressed the opinion she was, and always had been, perfectly sane. Could the dark secrets of insane asylums be brought to light we should be shocked to know the great number of rebellious wives, sisters, and daugthers who are thus sacrificed to false customs and barbarous laws made by men for women.


So to me it seems maybe Lizzie having a fear of being locked in an asylum would not have been completely out of the realm of possibility if she indeed was considered to be a burden by her family in some way.
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Post by RayS »

Obviously there were fewer rights for people before the Warren Court.
The film "Boomerang" has this as an example, but does not mention any "insanity".
I wondered about an authenticated case of an epileptic killing while undergoing an attack, as per Victoria Lincoln's fantastic explanaton.

Thanks for the citation, but it occurred basicall in the Dark Ages (before 20th century). Ever head LeMoyne Snyder's textbook?
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Post by Allen »

RayS @ Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:30 pm wrote:
Thanks for the citation, but it occurred basicall in the Dark Ages (before 20th century).
I have no idea what this means RayS. This attitude mystifies me. Because this occured in the same era as did the murders this form is based around. In fact it happened around the year Lizzie Borden was born. I do not see that a more modern viewpoint would have as much bearing on the case as would the views which were possibly held by the very people who were involved at that point in time.
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Post by RayS »

Allen @ Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:31 pm wrote:
RayS @ Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:30 pm wrote: ...
Thanks for the citation, but it occurred basicall in the Dark Ages (before 20th century).
I have no idea what this means RayS. This attitude mystifies me. Because this occured in the same era as did the murders this form is based around. In fact it happened around the year Lizzie Borden was born. I do not see that a more modern viewpoint would have as much bearing on the case as would the views which were possibly held by the very people who were involved at that point in time.
What I mean is that something from 1860s is hardly the best evidence of a murder caused by epilepsy, given the scientific state of those time.
They still believed in dreams, didn't they?

The Boorne case is in Pearson's "Studies in Murder".
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Post by Allen »

RayS @ Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:03 pm wrote:
Allen @ Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:31 pm wrote:
RayS @ Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:30 pm wrote: ...
Thanks for the citation, but it occurred basicall in the Dark Ages (before 20th century).
I have no idea what this means RayS. This attitude mystifies me. Because this occured in the same era as did the murders this form is based around. In fact it happened around the year Lizzie Borden was born. I do not see that a more modern viewpoint would have as much bearing on the case as would the views which were possibly held by the very people who were involved at that point in time.
What I mean is that something from 1860s is hardly the best evidence of a murder caused by epilepsy, given the scientific state of those time.
They still believed in dreams, didn't they?

The Boorne case is in Pearson's "Studies in Murder".
RayS if you can show me anywhere in my post where I even mentioned epiliepsy at all, I'll bake you a cake.
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Post by mbhenty »

:scratch:

Ray you should really focus. In your responses you hit to far afield and drift into topics and people that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Focus my good man focus. :smile:
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Post by RayS »

Allen @ Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:56 pm wrote:...
RayS if you can show me anywhere in my post where I even mentioned epiliepsy at all, I'll bake you a cake.
The topic was about the "epilepsy" that allegedly caused Lizzie to murder, as per Victoria Lincoln.

I didn't say your quote was off the mark. If you wanted to point out the ability of a rich and powerful man to imprison his wife (Jane Eyre) then I think we all accept that. Such lack of legal oversight existed until the 1960s, but maybe it might go on today.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by snokkums »

SallyG @ Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:40 pm wrote:I have always felt that Lizzie did commit the murders, and suspect that Bridget probably knew what had happened, and even helped clean Lizzie up and possibly helped her dispose of any bloody garments. With that established, the remaining question is WHY? Why did Lizzie murder Abby and Andrew?

Let's start back at the beginning. Lizzie's mother, Sarah, was known to have had "peculiar spells" and "fits of anger" by many witness accounts. I don't know that Emma ever gave out any information on her mothers mental state, though she was old enough to have witnessed any spells or fits of anger when she was a child, and most likely would have remembered them. "Peculiar spells" and "fits of anger" sounds to me as though Sarah may very well have suffered from bi-polar disorder, which would have been unknown and undiagnosed back then. My ex-husband, my brothers ex-wife, my cousins ex-girlfriend, and my oldest sons girlfriend all suffered from bi-polar disorder, so I am extremely familiar with it and how it affects the sufferer. From the outside, the bi-polar person appears to be a charming and delightful person. But the people who live with them tell a very different story. The mood swings, the unprovoked anger, the total unpredictability of what is going to happen at any given time, and often the rage and violence...this is what the family sees. Myself, my brother, my cousin, and my son all experienced physical attacks by the bi-polar person. What went on in Andrew's marriage to Sarah we don't know, but it probably was not a very happy union if Sarah was bi-polar.

Bi-polar disorder is very often hereditary, and it's very likely that Lizzie also suffered from it, from all accounts of her personality. Emma seems to have been a very passive person, although she may have disliked Abby and seen her as an interloper because she loved her mother and didn't want to see her replaced. She may have been aware that Andrew was not happy with Sarah, and he was happy with Abby...and disliked her on those grounds.

Lizzie most likely didn't remember her mother, and probably accepted Abby, though she may have been influenced by Emma's attitude toward Abby. It's very apparent that she loved her father, and probably saw Abby as a mother figure. In fact, she did refer to her as "mother" for a very long time.

Blended families were common in those days, due to the high mortality rate, so Abby having 2 stepdaughters was not unusual. By all accounts, Andrew and Abby were happy. Although Andrew was described as "tightfisted" with his money, Abby may have been a very frugal person herself, and not found Andrew's attitude about finances unusual.

But we also have Lizzie. Andrew obviously adored Lizzie, and Abby may have been very fond of her as well, having raised her since she was a young child. But let's suppose that Lizzie did inherit her mothers bi-polar disorder. The description of her as a child, being quiet, withdrawn, and lacking in confidence, would fit the diagnosis. Although she did blossom as an adult and was more involved with people and activities. But her bi-polar disorder would probably have been progressing as well, and Andrew and Abby would have found her increasingly more difficult to handle. Andrew seems to have gone to great lengths to placate Lizzie and keep her happy. However, at some point, he may have realized that Lizzie was just not going to get any better and was, in fact, getting worse. He had made the statement to others that that particular summer he was not going over to Swansea because of trouble in the family. He and Abby may have come to the conclusion that Lizzie was going to have to be "put away", and Andrew had reluctantly decided to do just that.

Emma, being Lizzie's sister, may have wanted no parts of having Lizzie committed, and went on an extended visit while Andrew handled things at home. That may have accounted for Andrew asking Emma how he would be able to get in touch with her if anything happened. He probably anticipated problems in carrying out his plans.

Enter Uncle John. As Sarah's brother and Lizzie's uncle, Andrew may have summoned him to Fall River, feeling that he would need help and Uncle John was the person who could best help him getting Lizzie where she needed to go. He probably anticipated he could not do it alone, and didn't think Abby would be able to help him, so Uncle John was summoned. Although both he and Uncle John had to have a cover story for why he was there so Lizzie's suspicions would not be raised.

In the meantime, everyone was getting sick...most likely food poisoning from the fish...but Abby was probably so keyed up over the whole impending thing, that she feared Lizzie knew what was about to happen and was trying to kill everyone.

Unfortunately for everyone, it seems Lizzie did suspect something was amiss...she even stated that to Alice Russel the night before the murders. She just didn't come out and say "Alice, I'm mentally ill and I think Father is going to have me committed and Uncle John is here to help him". I would imagine Lizzie was in a state when she went back home, and then found Andrew, Abby, and Uncle John in the sitting room in the dark talking. Who knows what she overheard them saying. She may have concluded that tomorrow was THE DAY, and become panic stricken. The next morning, she KNEW she had to do something, even commit murder, to avoid being committed to a mental institution for the rest of her life. So she took action. Abby signed her death warrant when she sent Bridget out to wash the windows and she was left alone with Lizzie. Once Abby was killed, and Lizzie was cleaned up, she just had to wait for Andrew to come back home. She wasn't able to get Bridget out of the house, but at least she did get her upstairs and out of the way. Then she killed Andrew. Bridget possibly found her, helped her clean up and dispose of the murder weapon and hide the clothes she wore, and then was sent out to sound the alarm. Uncle John was due back for lunch, and it's a good possibility that he and Andrew were scheduled to attend to Lizzie that afternoon. I would imagine once he got back and realized what had happened, it was quite a shock. But at the same time, he might not have been surprised. What is so interesting is that he and Emma never breathed a word of Andrew's intentions of having Lizzie committed. Lizzie probably knew Emma would not try to have her committed, and Uncle John would probably go away quietly. If she could just keep Bridget quiet..all might be well. Bridget cooperated, Emma and Uncle John kept their silence, and Lizzie was acquitted. Most likely Emma tried to remain with Lizzie as long as she could afterwards, but in the end she had to leave.
I have pondered and pondered the case, and considered what would have driven Lizzie to murder. She never murdered again...but then no one else tried to have her committed! No matter what the conditions in the French Street house, Emma was not going to make the same mistake of trying to get Lizzie committed. She left. Left alone, Lizzie may have been able to function just fine.
Of course, all this is just my opinion.
I think the why, at least for Lizzie, was that she might have thought that there was a will and that Andrew changed it in favor of Abby. She was not on good terms with Abby at the time.

As for Bridget, I think she was fond of Lizzie, and didn't want to see anything happen to her. Plus, she might have thought that because she was an immigrant, that maybe she would get sent back to Ireland, or at best, get fired.

I do think that she was bi-polar, even though she was never diagnosed. Back then, that was a very taboo thing, to be mentally ill.

But, I do think that Emma had something to do with it. She just had enough sense to be out of town when the murders happened. I think that Emma and Lizzie had talked about it, and Lizzie just had the guts to carry the murders out. Emma had the sense to not be around.
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Post by RayS »

It is important to NOT read history backwards, and imagine today's reality existed 110 years ago.
As far as I know, there was no Federal Immigration Laws before the 1890s. Bridget did not need a Green Card. Millions had arrived during the 19th century. Otherwise every author would have brought that up in their books.

After one night, Bridget left that house and never returned. I don't see fondness for Lizzie or Emma there.
As for Bridget, I think she was fond of Lizzie, and didn't want to see anything happen to her. Plus, she might have thought that because she was an immigrant, that maybe she would get sent back to Ireland, or at best, get fired
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Post by shakiboo »

When the murder happend it was actually alot more of an innocent time, today we see blood, guts and gore in almost everything from movies, the news, the newspapers and television. There might have been a few who saw such things ie. veterans of the war, some Doctors. but your everyday citizen could have only been horribly shocked! It had to have been gruesome! It's hard for me to imagine anyone staying in the house.
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Post by snokkums »

Oscar @ Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:39 am wrote:Victoria Lincoln wrote a whole book based around the epilepsy theory. It seems rediculous to me that someone having an epileptic seizure would be able to cary out such organized and planful behavior like a double homocide.
People can have an epileptic seizure and function, it's called frontal lope epilepsy. People can be actually functioning in one of these epesodes. They won't remember what they did but they can function. Sometimes, it looks like they are starting off into space, or have a blank look on there face.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Angel »

SallyG @ Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:40 pm wrote:I have always felt that Lizzie did commit the murders, and suspect that Bridget probably knew what had happened, and even helped clean Lizzie up and possibly helped her dispose of any bloody garments. With that established, the remaining question is WHY? Why did Lizzie murder Abby and Andrew?

Let's start back at the beginning. Lizzie's mother, Sarah, was known to have had "peculiar spells" and "fits of anger" by many witness accounts. I don't know that Emma ever gave out any information on her mothers mental state, though she was old enough to have witnessed any spells or fits of anger when she was a child, and most likely would have remembered them. "Peculiar spells" and "fits of anger" sounds to me as though Sarah may very well have suffered from bi-polar disorder, which would have been unknown and undiagnosed back then. My ex-husband, my brothers ex-wife, my cousins ex-girlfriend, and my oldest sons girlfriend all suffered from bi-polar disorder, so I am extremely familiar with it and how it affects the sufferer. From the outside, the bi-polar person appears to be a charming and delightful person. But the people who live with them tell a very different story. The mood swings, the unprovoked anger, the total unpredictability of what is going to happen at any given time, and often the rage and violence...this is what the family sees. Myself, my brother, my cousin, and my son all experienced physical attacks by the bi-polar person. What went on in Andrew's marriage to Sarah we don't know, but it probably was not a very happy union if Sarah was bi-polar.

Bi-polar disorder is very often hereditary, and it's very likely that Lizzie also suffered from it, from all accounts of her personality. Emma seems to have been a very passive person, although she may have disliked Abby and seen her as an interloper because she loved her mother and didn't want to see her replaced. She may have been aware that Andrew was not happy with Sarah, and he was happy with Abby...and disliked her on those grounds.

Lizzie most likely didn't remember her mother, and probably accepted Abby, though she may have been influenced by Emma's attitude toward Abby. It's very apparent that she loved her father, and probably saw Abby as a mother figure. In fact, she did refer to her as "mother" for a very long time.

Blended families were common in those days, due to the high mortality rate, so Abby having 2 stepdaughters was not unusual. By all accounts, Andrew and Abby were happy. Although Andrew was described as "tightfisted" with his money, Abby may have been a very frugal person herself, and not found Andrew's attitude about finances unusual.

But we also have Lizzie. Andrew obviously adored Lizzie, and Abby may have been very fond of her as well, having raised her since she was a young child. But let's suppose that Lizzie did inherit her mothers bi-polar disorder. The description of her as a child, being quiet, withdrawn, and lacking in confidence, would fit the diagnosis. Although she did blossom as an adult and was more involved with people and activities. But her bi-polar disorder would probably have been progressing as well, and Andrew and Abby would have found her increasingly more difficult to handle. Andrew seems to have gone to great lengths to placate Lizzie and keep her happy. However, at some point, he may have realized that Lizzie was just not going to get any better and was, in fact, getting worse. He had made the statement to others that that particular summer he was not going over to Swansea because of trouble in the family. He and Abby may have come to the conclusion that Lizzie was going to have to be "put away", and Andrew had reluctantly decided to do just that.

Emma, being Lizzie's sister, may have wanted no parts of having Lizzie committed, and went on an extended visit while Andrew handled things at home. That may have accounted for Andrew asking Emma how he would be able to get in touch with her if anything happened. He probably anticipated problems in carrying out his plans.

Enter Uncle John. As Sarah's brother and Lizzie's uncle, Andrew may have summoned him to Fall River, feeling that he would need help and Uncle John was the person who could best help him getting Lizzie where she needed to go. He probably anticipated he could not do it alone, and didn't think Abby would be able to help him, so Uncle John was summoned. Although both he and Uncle John had to have a cover story for why he was there so Lizzie's suspicions would not be raised.

In the meantime, everyone was getting sick...most likely food poisoning from the fish...but Abby was probably so keyed up over the whole impending thing, that she feared Lizzie knew what was about to happen and was trying to kill everyone.

Unfortunately for everyone, it seems Lizzie did suspect something was amiss...she even stated that to Alice Russel the night before the murders. She just didn't come out and say "Alice, I'm mentally ill and I think Father is going to have me committed and Uncle John is here to help him". I would imagine Lizzie was in a state when she went back home, and then found Andrew, Abby, and Uncle John in the sitting room in the dark talking. Who knows what she overheard them saying. She may have concluded that tomorrow was THE DAY, and become panic stricken. The next morning, she KNEW she had to do something, even commit murder, to avoid being committed to a mental institution for the rest of her life. So she took action. Abby signed her death warrant when she sent Bridget out to wash the windows and she was left alone with Lizzie. Once Abby was killed, and Lizzie was cleaned up, she just had to wait for Andrew to come back home. She wasn't able to get Bridget out of the house, but at least she did get her upstairs and out of the way. Then she killed Andrew. Bridget possibly found her, helped her clean up and dispose of the murder weapon and hide the clothes she wore, and then was sent out to sound the alarm. Uncle John was due back for lunch, and it's a good possibility that he and Andrew were scheduled to attend to Lizzie that afternoon. I would imagine once he got back and realized what had happened, it was quite a shock. But at the same time, he might not have been surprised. What is so interesting is that he and Emma never breathed a word of Andrew's intentions of having Lizzie committed. Lizzie probably knew Emma would not try to have her committed, and Uncle John would probably go away quietly. If she could just keep Bridget quiet..all might be well. Bridget cooperated, Emma and Uncle John kept their silence, and Lizzie was acquitted. Most likely Emma tried to remain with Lizzie as long as she could afterwards, but in the end she had to leave.
I have pondered and pondered the case, and considered what would have driven Lizzie to murder. She never murdered again...but then no one else tried to have her committed! No matter what the conditions in the French Street house, Emma was not going to make the same mistake of trying to get Lizzie committed. She left. Left alone, Lizzie may have been able to function just fine.
Of course, all this is just my opinion.

I agree with this completely. I have always thought something along this order happened. And, of course, because the threat was gone, Lizzie was never again driven to such a frenzy.
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Post by Angel »

Shelley @ Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:58 pm wrote:It's a great theory. Dr. Bowen may even have been in favor of a sanatarium, and felt guilty he had not taken more aggressive steps to keep Lizzie under a more watchful eye and guard. I wonder if Marion had any sanatariums at the time? She may have been away longer than just a fishing trip! Mental disorders carried such a stigma at the time- it would have been kept quiet. Maybe her symptoms had progressed to something more alarming than kleptomania!
I think that is exactly why Dr. Bowen was acting so strangely. He was driven to distraction with the guilt that he felt he should have seen the signs of something terrible about to happen.
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Post by Angel »

[quote="SallyG @ Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:26 pm"]I did forget Lizzie's alleged attempt to buy prussic acid. She may very well have initially planned to poison Andrew and Abby....but when she could not obtain it, that plan went awry. I don't think Lizzie had any intention of letting herself be "put away". The facinating thing about bi-polar suffers is that they really don't think there is anything wrong with them! As far as they are concerned, everyone else has a problem, and they see themselves as a victim.In Lizzies mind, she was the victim, she had been treated unjustly all her life not only by her father, but by Abby as well, and now they were planning to put HER away. That was intolerable. There was nothing wrong with her. Her fits of anger and mood swings were brought on by THEM. THEY were the reason she acted the way she did. Now they were planning to have her committed, Emma had deserted her, and Uncle John had arrived, most likely to assist Andrew and Abby in their plot. Things were getting desperate. She tried going to Alice Russell, beating around the bush and voicing her fears that something was about to "happen". Alice probably casually dismissed her fears and Lizzie left in an even worse state.It probably would have been more surprising if Abby and Andrew had NOT been killed, rather than they were./quote]

Maybe Alice was struggling with more than the guilt of having kept the issue of the dress burning from the authorities- maybe she was torn about turning Lizzie in because she may have felt on some level that Lizzie was a victim of some really disfunctional people, and she sympathized.
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Post by RayS »

Angel @ Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:57 pm wrote:
SallyG @ Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:26 pm wrote:I did forget Lizzie's alleged attempt to buy prussic acid. She may very well have initially planned to poison Andrew and Abby....but when she could not obtain it, that plan went awry. I don't think Lizzie had any intention of letting herself be "put away". The facinating thing about bi-polar suffers is that they really don't think there is anything wrong with them! As far as they are concerned, everyone else has a problem, and they see themselves as a victim.In Lizzies mind, she was the victim, she had been treated unjustly all her life not only by her father, but by Abby as well, and now they were planning to put HER away. That was intolerable. There was nothing wrong with her. Her fits of anger and mood swings were brought on by THEM. THEY were the reason she acted the way she did. Now they were planning to have her committed, Emma had deserted her, and Uncle John had arrived, most likely to assist Andrew and Abby in their plot. Things were getting desperate. She tried going to Alice Russell, beating around the bush and voicing her fears that something was about to "happen". Alice probably casually dismissed her fears and Lizzie left in an even worse state.It probably would have been more surprising if Abby and Andrew had NOT been killed, rather than they were.
Maybe Alice was struggling with more than the guilt of having kept the issue of the dress burning from the authorities- maybe she was torn about turning Lizzie in because she may have felt on some level that Lizzie was a victim of some really disfunctional people, and she sympathized.
Yet no one has raised the possibility that Lizzie, if she was the one who tried to buy poison, had intended to do away with herself!!!
Wasn't her life said to be intolerable?
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Post by SallyG »

I would imagine Lizzie herself felt her life was intolerable. She did not live in the style which she would have liked to be accustomed, Andrew was a tightwad, she had to tolerate Abby whom she apparently was no longer fond of, possibly the family was contemplating "putting her away", etc. However, all of these situations COULD be remedied. I don't think Lizzie had any desire to end her own life. But I do think she was desperately searching for a way out of an unpleasant situatioin.
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Post by SallyG »

Just a thought on the Prussic acid...was any Prussic acid ever actually found on the premises of Andrews house? I'm sure the house was searched from top to bottom. Of course it could have been disposed of, but I was just curious.

Also, I have read many times Eli Bence's statement of how Lizzie tried to buy the Prussic acid, but was that actually witnessed? Were there any other employees or customers in the store at that time to verify that event, or are we just taking his word for it? Did it actually happen, or was he just looking for his "15 minutes of fame"?
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Post by Kat »

I'm going to post the whole Bence/Kilroy/Hart Inquest testimony because I have it broken out in my files and it is pretty short.

INQUEST
Bence, 160
Kilroy, 163
Hart, 164

(160)
ELI BENCE.

Q. (Mr. Knowlton) What is your full name?
A. Eli Bence.
Q. Mr. Bence, where is your place of business?
A. I work for D. R. Smith, the corner of So. Main street and Columbia, a drug store.
Q. How long has that store been there?
A. I could not say just positively. I should judge close on to ten years. I should think more than that. I dont know positively.
Q. Have you worked there during that time?
A. I worked there three years last Spring, the 8th of April.
Q. You remember the day of this murder?
A. I do positively.
Q. I suppose you heard of it very soon afterwards?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was your attention then attracted to the fact of anybody's endeavoring to buy poison at your store the day before?
A. My attention was directed to that point along towards six or seven o'clock in the evening of the day of the murder.
Q. What took place, what happened, about the purchasing of the poison?
A. This party came in there, and inquired if I kept prussic acid. They came in, and the second clerk went towards them to wait on them. I was standing out there, I walked in ahead. She asked me if we kept prussic acid. I informed her that we did.
Q. What happened then?
A. She asked me if she could buy ten cents worth of me. I informed her we did not sell prussic acid, unless by a physician's prescription. She then said that she had bought this several times, I think; I think she said several times before. I says "well my good lady, it is something we dont sell unless by a prescription from the doctor, as it is a very dangerous thing to handle." She then walked around, and went out, turned right around.
Q. Did she say what she wanted it for?
A. I understood her to say she wanted it to put on the edge of a seal skin cape, if I remember rightly.
Q. She did not buy anything, no drug at all, no medicine?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you then know who it was?
A. I knew her as a Miss Borden; I have known her for sometime as a Miss Borden, but not as Andrew J. Borden's daughter until that morning. One of the gentlemen who was sitting there, when she turned around and went out, he says "that is Andrew J. Borden's daughter". I looked at her a second time then more closely than when I was talking to her. I should say it was Miss Borden.
Q. What time of day was this?
A. I should say between ten and half past eleven, somewhere. I could not positively state the hour, as I was quite busy. I had been away on a vacation, and just came back that morning. I had lots of work in the back shop, I had been quite busy. But it was before I go to dinner, which is half past eleven, and I think between ten and half past eleven, positively.
Q. Had you ever seen her in the store before?
A. No Sir, not in that store.
Q. You had merely seen her on the street?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that the day before the murder?
A. Yes Sir, that was August third.
Q. You said your attention was attracted to it six or seven o'clock in the evening; what attracted your attention then?
A. There was a lady came in the shop; she says to me, talking of it as everybody did that day, she says, "why, I understand they are suspecting Miss Borden, the daughter."
Q. This was the evening after the murder?
A. Yes.
Q. I do not care for that. I thought it was the evening before the murder?
A. No Sir.
Q. You may finish it, now you have begun.
A. I says "is that so?" She says yes, and walked out then. It started me to thinking of this that had happened the day before. The other gentlemanthat was there at the time, he came in shortly afterwards, and he remarked to me that that was rather a singular coincidence. I said yes I thought it was. I then spoke to one of my intimate friends, a Doctor, and I told him what I had heard &c, and he says then you ought to report it. I says I think so myself. We were busy with prescriptions at the time, I was alone at the time in the shop. About somewhere around eight o'clock Officer Doherty and Officer Harrington came up.
Q. Did you afterwards go to the house?
A. I did, yes sir.
Q. When was that?
A. I should say between eight and nine o'clock.
Q. What day was that?
A. That was the fourth, the day of the murder.
Q. When did you go to the house?
A. Eight o'clock in the evening after the murder.
Q. That same evening?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you there see Lizzie Borden?
A. I did, yes sir.
Q. Where was she when you saw her?
A. In the kitchen, talking with Officer Harrington.
Q. Did you recognize her as the one that you had had the talk with the night before?
A. I did, yes sir.
Q. Positively?
A. I dont think I could be mistaken.
Q. How did you judge?
A. I judged both from seeing her before on the street, and also by a peculiar expression around the eyes, which I noticed at the time, and noticed then.
Q. Did you hear her talk?
A. I did.
Q. Did you identify the voice?
A. I did.
Q. You went in for the purpose of seeing if she was the one?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you speak to her that evening in there?
A. I did not.
Q. Who was present in the shop when she came in to buy the prussic acid?
A. The second clerk, Mr. Hart, and Mr. Kilroy. The third clerk was in the back shop, and did not hear or see anything.
Q. Kilroy and Hart were in the shop?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The law requires a record to be made of sales of poison?
A. Yes Sir. I calculate to see all people of that kind who come in the shop.
Q. How came she to say what she wanted it for; did you ask her?
A. I did, yes sir; that is what we always do.
Q. How much would ten cents worth be?
A. I never sold ten cents worth in my life. I never sold it, only on prescription.
Q. How much is in an ounce?
A. I dont know as I could really tell you how much it does cost an ounce, it is so long ago since we bought any. I could not positively say.
Q. Give me some idea what it would be worth to sell, nearer ten cents or fifty dollars an ounce?
A. I never sell it that way.
Q. Suppose I should want to buy an ounce?
A. I should not sell it to you.
Q. What does it cost you an ounce?
A. It is not expensive. I have forgotten just what it does cost, I think somewhere around 25 or 30 cents an ounce.
Q. How much of a dose of prussic acid is fatal, do you know?
A. Yes Sir, I ought to. We dont keep prussic acid in its strength; we only keep the dilute, two per cent. One drop of strong prussic acid has proved fatal; the dilution is as high as four drops. I have given that on prescription. We never put up four drops without first inquiring of the Doctor. I would not like to give anybody five drops.
Q. Have you had any talk with anybodyelse about the matter, except Mr. Hilliard and his officers, and the doctor?
A. Only the doctor, that is all. Lots and lots of people have spoken to me about it. I have always referred them to Mr. Hilliard. Of course when it came out in the paper, everybody was inquiring of me if I had done this or done that.
__________________
FRANK H. KILROY.

Q. (Mr. Knowlton) What is your name?
A. Frank H. Kilroy.
Q. What is your business?
A. I am a student of medicine.
Q. Where were you last Wednesday, a week ago yesterday?
A. Wednesday morning, I called in D. R. Smith's drug store.
Q. Do you know Miss Lizzie A. Borden?
A. I have seen her. I know her by sight.
Q. Have you seen her since the tragedy?
A. No Sir.
Q. How long had you known her by sight?
A. Perhaps a year.
Q. Had you ever seen her in the store?
A. No, I saw her on the street.
Q. So you could identify her?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now did you see her in that store, that morning?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What took place?
A. She came in there, I was in front of the counter under the fan, talking with Mr. Bence, She went up to the counter, Mr. Hart the clerk was behind the counter, she asked Mr. Hart for prussic acid. At that time Mr. Bence left me and went behind the counter, and asked her if she had a prescription, that they could not sell prussic acid without a prescription. I dont know just what she said. I heard her mention seal skin cape, and she left the store.
Q. How was she dressed?
A. I dont remember. I think she had a cape, or carried a cape or sack of some kind on her arm.
Q. That is all you know about it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You have not been to see her since that time?
A. No Sir.
Q. You feel sure that you know who she is?
A. Well, I think so.
_______
164
FREDERICK B. HART.

Q. (Mr. Knowlton) What is your name?
A. Frederick B. Hart.
Q. What is your business?
A. Clerk in D. R. Smith's drug store.
Q. Were you present in the store Wednesday morning, a week ago?
A. I was.
Q. Did you see anybody coming in there, inquiring for prussic acid?
A. I did.
Q. State what you saw and heard.
A. Between ten and half past eleven o'clock Wednesday morning, a woman came in the store, and inquired for prussic acid. She said she wanted it to put on the edges of a seal skin cloak. She was refused the acid and went out.
Q. Who waited on her?
A. She was on the point of asking me, as the other clerk stepped up, and she asked him.
Q. Did you know who it was?
A. I did not at the time, no air.
Q. Have you since seen her?
A. I have not, no sir.
Q. So you dont know who it is, excepting by hear say?
A. I dont know, except from a picture I have seen.
Q. Seen in the paper?
A. In the Fall River Globe, yes sir.
Q. That is all the way you know is by the picture. Does she resemble the picture of Miss Borden you have seen in the paper?
A. She does.
Q. That is all you know about it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Had you ever seen that person in the store before?
A. No Sir.
(Mr. Hart recalled.)
Q. Did you see the lady that was in custody, in company with the Marshal, as you went out?
A. In black, yes sir.
Q. Is that the woman?
A. That is the woman.
Q. You are sure of it?
A. That is sure.
Q. You dont think you can be mistaken?
A. I dont think I can be mistaken.
Q. I think you said you had known her by sight before?
A. I never knew the woman by sight before.
Q. You are sure this is the woman? Ans. I am, sir, just.
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Post by 1bigsteve »

SallyG @ Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:37 am wrote:I would imagine Lizzie herself felt her life was intolerable. She did not live in the style which she would have liked to be accustomed, Andrew was a tightwad, she had to tolerate Abby whom she apparently was no longer fond of, possibly the family was contemplating "putting her away", etc. However, all of these situations COULD be remedied. I don't think Lizzie had any desire to end her own life. But I do think she was desperately searching for a way out of an unpleasant situatioin.

I think you summed the whole thing up very well, Sally. Lizzie was getting older and saw no light at the end of the tunnel and she wanted out!!

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Post by RayS »

SallyG @ Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:37 pm wrote:I would imagine Lizzie herself felt her life was intolerable. She did not live in the style which she would have liked to be accustomed, Andrew was a tightwad, she had to tolerate Abby whom she apparently was no longer fond of, possibly the family was contemplating "putting her away", etc. However, all of these situations COULD be remedied. I don't think Lizzie had any desire to end her own life. But I do think she was desperately searching for a way out of an unpleasant situatioin.
I only asked the question to see what anyone would say.
1) Lizzie was not the woman who tried to buy a poison w/o a prescription.
2) Maybe she did, but it was for her protection (as Arthur Phillips' book says - but some say this may have been written after his death).

If Lizzie only got $25,000 as an inheritance, that would be $1,250 a year at 5% interest, quite a bit more than her $250 a year allowance. She could live comfortably but not luxuriously.
Unless she lost it all in a bank or business failure. No FDIC then.
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Post by RayS »

SallyG @ Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:47 pm wrote:Just a thought on the Prussic acid...was any Prussic acid ever actually found on the premises of Andrews house? I'm sure the house was searched from top to bottom. Of course it could have been disposed of, but I was just curious.

Also, I have read many times Eli Bence's statement of how Lizzie tried to buy the Prussic acid, but was that actually witnessed? Were there any other employees or customers in the store at that time to verify that event, or are we just taking his word for it? Did it actually happen, or was he just looking for his "15 minutes of fame"?
If you read Arnold Brown's book, or any other that deals with this, you would know that 1) no poison was sold to that Lizzie look-a-like, and 2) no prussic acid was ever found in the house at the time of the murders.

Prefessor Borchard's (name?) 1935 book tells of many mistaken convictions because of faulty eyewitness identification. Judge Dewey mention this at the trial. (See the Tichbourne Claimant.)

It is also true that many could identify a person to claim a reward. See "Frame-Up" by Curt Gentry.

The identification by the three witnesses showed some identical descriptions, as if they had been coached. Also some differences. One said Lizzie's voice was tremulous, another that it was loud. ??
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Post by SallyG »

Thank you, Kat, for that information on Eli Bence. Very informative. It seems, then, that everyone was pretty positive that it was Lizzie who tried to purchase the poison.

I'm sure Ray will be adamant that it was not Lizzie because it would not fit with Browns theory, but I'm going to disregard that for the moment.

I know there are a lot of theories of what really happened that day, but I am wondering if everyone here (almost everyone) is in agreement that Lizzie probably DID try to buy the Prussic acid?

IF she did, the question is why. Was she pretty much convinced by what was transpiring in the household that she was headed for the psychiatric hospital? If so, she was desperate to find a way to prevent it. Emma was gone; most likely because she didn't want any part of putting Lizzie away, even though she may have known it was for the best. That left Andrew and Abby. Lizzie probably decided the only option was to do away with them. It was either them or her. Self-preservation won out.

It has been said that poison is, or was, the woman's method of killing. If I remember correctly, the police found a home remedy book, or something of the sort, with the spine broken at the page on Prussic acid. Obviously Lizzie had been doing her research. If she could poison them, the whole issue of her being committed would be null and void. As a bonus, she and Emma would also have Andrews money. But the main thing was to get rid of Andrew and Abby.

Unfortunately, she could not procure the poison. Now Uncle John was there as well. And he was coming back at noon, per Andrews invite. Noon was probably when Andrew and John were going to pack her up.

Something HAD to be done...!!!
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Post by diana »

Thanks for posting the Inquest Bence stuff all together, Kat.

Although Bence seems pretty sure at the inquest he knew the woman who asked for prussic acid as "Miss Borden" -- that's not what he initially tells police. He said: “No, I do not know her, but think I would know her again, should I see her." (Witness Statements). They then promptly hustle him up to the house where he apparently identifies her by sight and by the sound of her voice.

We should remember that he says he went up there between 8 or 9 at night. Now using data from a website covering Massachusetts weather and climate(http://www.yankeeclassic.com/ycp/other/massclim.htm) the sun set in MA on August 4th 1892 at approximately 7:05 – 7:10 . So if Bence went to the house at 8 p.m., it would have been dark -- and illumination in the Borden kitchen would hardly have been optimal for a positive identification.

I also feel Kilroy and Hart are tentative when they’re backing him up at the inquest. When Kilroy is asked if he is sure he knows who Lizzie is he answers: "Well, I think so." And Hart's answer to the same question is "I am, sir, just." indicating he is marginally sure at best.

Kilroy doesn’t help Bence’s case at the Preliminary Hearing, either. Bence says he recognized Lizzie at the house, not only by her appearance, but also because of her voice. He testifies that Lizzie spoke in a low tremulous voice when she asked for the prussic acid and this aided him in his identification when he heard her speak later at the house. But then Kilroy comes on the stand right after Bence and, in apparent contradiction, says Lizzie spoke in quite a loud tone and with no noticeable tremor.

There are two other things I always wonder about whenever go over the Bence issue. One is a sentence which appears in the Witness Statements right after the entry about Bence’s identification: “Many sales had been made, and a number of persons refused. A description of those who were-refused was obtained, but none resembled the person who called on Bence.”

The other is Adams asking Bence at the Preliminary Hearing if he ever said to anyone that he could not swear it was Miss Borden. Adam’s follow up questions seem to imply that a Mr. George Gray on Whipple Street claims Bence did say that.

I don’t know what these two things mean – they’re just snippets that give me pause each time I consider this aspect of the case.
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Post by Kat »

The story about the *Home Remedy book* is out of Pearson.
He is the one who says there was such a book and it fell open to that poison.

Another way to look at the Bence story is to check if Lizzie had an alibi for the time he stated -which was pretty loose timing, as I recall.
The alibi is pretty interesting! Look at Bridget and Mrs. Dr. Bowen, and Morse.
One thing that really gets me is Lizzie's alibi for Wednesday is backed up by the dead Abbie!
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Post by Nadzieja »

Hi everybody, I started reading this forum and was fascinated at this thought of Lizzie being mentally ill (bi-polar). What could Lizzie have done that was so bad to have them want to commit her and where would they have sent her? Appearance seemed to be everything in those day, no matter what was going on everything had to appear normal. That in itself must have put quite a bit of pressure on Andrew & Abby. Was it (or is it still) that easy to commit someone against their will?
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Post by Kat »

I am still concerned that Lizzie was allowed to visit Europe for 19 weeks with no Emma to watch over her and make sure any *condition* Lizzie had was not shown to the general public, like on board ship. I would think that sailing and traveling in close society would show off any illness she had, even unto epilepsy.

Also, in later years, we don't have stories of her being unusually erratic, or acting out in public.

Maybe some think her visits to New York or Boston were for therapy? Maybe in the 1920's, even shock therapy? :?:
I don't think Emma would have left Lizbeth alone in French Street if she needed looking after. I could see how a theory could be developed along these lines, but to Emma's credit- I do doubt she would abandon Lizbeth if she was as unstable as some seem to think. I mean, some syndromes don't get better untreated right? It only gets worse?
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Curryong »

I found the discussions on this early thread extremely interesting. IF Andrew suspected, having lived with Sarah, Lizzie's mother, that Lizzie was exhibiting some similar odd behaviour as she became older, then he may well have been terribly worried even if he didn't associate it with the ongoing conflict about Abby.
I feel that, had he lived and discovered Abby's body, then Lizzie would have ended up in a mental institution. Quietly and discreetly, of course. If she had been found guilty after Andrew and Abby's murders then I feel Dr Bowen and others would have stepped in and the same course would have been taken.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by PossumPie »

Mental illnesses can be divided into two main categories. If someone has depression, anxiety, personality disorders such as schizoid, schizotypal, antisocial/sociaopathic, borderline personality disorder, these are not "Institutionalizable disorders" in other words, people function in society with them.
The other group such as paranoid, undifferentiated, catatonic schizophrenia is VERY difficult to treat, especially before 1950. These need institutionalization, even today under acute periods. There is no evidence whatever that Lizzie was PSYCHOTIC, though she certainly had NEUROTIC tendencies. Lizzie may or may not have had kleptomaniacal tendencies...there is compelling anticdotal evidence such as the stolen tickets, and later in life the thefts from stores. IF she were guilty of the murders, than certainly sociopathic tendencies may come into play.
I see no evidence whatever that Lizzie was PSYCHOTIC, hearing voices, seeing things, strange paranoias, etc. which would need institutionalization. At this point in the history of mental illness treatment there were almost no drugs to treat it...opiates as a sedative was most common. By the 50's Thorazine as an antipsychotic was useful in severe mental illness, and helped empty many institutions of the less ill.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

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PossumPie that is a wonderful explanation of psychology. Much of it doesn't apply, however, to women in 1892. The ideas about psychology and what was and was not an illness that required being put into an insane asylum were very different. What was and was not a cause for hysteria often reads like a shopping list of normal behavior. Women were considered to become "hysterical" over anything. And if Andrew suspected that Lizzie was a murderer, he could as her father, have her locked up against her will. Women often had no say at all over their own destiny. Being locked away in a mental asylum was one of those things they ultimately had no control over if a man in their lives decided that's where they belonged. If Andrew wanted her in there, and believed her to be a danger to either herself or her family, he would have been within his rights to put her there.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

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The mental health field back in the Victorian times, we know how it was supposed to work. The sick went into hospital. Those who were normal and had no mental problems did not. The problem is mental health, and what constituted not being mentally healthy, was viewed much differently then than it is today. Women were viewed much differently than they are today. I'd liken it to how our justice system is supposed to work. Innocent until proven guilty, justice is always on the side of the innocent to put the guilty behind bars, right to a fair trial, and the guilty should get a punishment that fits the crime. In theory that's how our justice system works. But is that how it actually works? Listen to stories of those who have been through it and you'll get a totally different idea.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by PossumPie »

FactFinder wrote:PossumPie that is a wonderful explanation of psychology. Much of it doesn't apply, however, to women in 1892. The ideas about psychology and what was and was not an illness that required being put into an insane asylum were very different. What was and was not a cause for hysteria often reads like a shopping list of normal behavior. Women were considered to become "hysterical" over anything. And if Andrew suspected that Lizzie was a murderer, he could as her father, have her locked up against her will. Women often had no say at all over their own destiny. Being locked away in a mental asylum was one of those things they ultimately had no control over if a man in their lives decided that's where they belonged. If Andrew wanted her in there, and believed her to be a danger to either herself or her family, he would have been within his rights to put her there.
You are quite correct that some people had influence back then to lock someone up who didn't need it...interesting trivia: Did you know the word Hysterical comes from the rood word "HYSTER" meaning uterus? (HYSTERectomy means surgical removal of the uterus, HYSTERitis means inflammation of the uterus) HYSTERical behaviour was thought to come from a woman's uterus moving around. By the late 1800's female hysteria was thought to be brought on by sexual dysfunction, and the treatment was "a massage of the genitals until orgasm" ...WOW talk about sexist!
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Catbooks »

very interesting theory in the op and one i hadn't considered - that andrew and abby were on the verge of putting lizzie away due to mental illness.

it would explain john morse's appearance, without any bag or clothing, and i believe he didn't usually stay in the guest room (right outside of lizzie's bedroom), although now can't recall where he usually did stay when he came to visit. an attic room? also emma's taking a trip so she'd be out of the way, not wanting to face this betrayal of lizzie and in a manner betraying her mother's deathbed charge of her taking care of lizzie. emma clearly took that seriously.

things had obviously gone from bad to worse in the household. the strange things lizzie said to her friend the night before the murders - strange by anyone's account - could be a manifestation of mental illness. i'll have to mull this one over.

while i loved reading victoria lincoln's book for the insights from an fall river insider, and her woman's-eye view of the case, i have a hard time with her epilepsy theory.

thank you for posting the testimony of bence et al. i tend to believe lizzie did attempt to purchase the prussic acid. until she got to the drug store and spoke with bence, she probably thought she had a reasonable cover for buying it. abby was talking about being concerned about being poisoned, lizzie had said the same. (did emma mention this at all?) the milk, the bread, and a possible enemy of andrew's who might be behind it.

if things were heating up that quickly, she'd have thought she had to act NOW. poison would be the easiest. was prussic acid detectable in bodies as cause of death at that time? or had she reason to think it wouldn't be?

where else would she have gone to get it? she had to know about the drug store (very telling to me she lied about that), it was nearby, the stage already set for poisoning, her (so she thought) reasonable reason for purchasing it set, her bases as covered as she could get them at the time and in haste.

another related thing i've wondered about is abby sending bridget, with whom she was friendly, out to wash all the windows on a warm day when she knew bridget was so unwell. lugging around heavy buckets of water and washing all the windows of a house, especially where the windows are high up from ground level - inside and out - is a big job. why would abby ask her to do that that day? why not the following day when she was feeling better?

it really does seem like abby was trying to get bridget out of the way, and the only reason i can think of is so she could speak with lizzie without bridget overhearing. attempting to prime the pump for when andrew got home about sending her away, or about something else? dunno.
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FactFinder
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

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PossumPie wrote:
FactFinder wrote:PossumPie that is a wonderful explanation of psychology. Much of it doesn't apply, however, to women in 1892. The ideas about psychology and what was and was not an illness that required being put into an insane asylum were very different. What was and was not a cause for hysteria often reads like a shopping list of normal behavior. Women were considered to become "hysterical" over anything. And if Andrew suspected that Lizzie was a murderer, he could as her father, have her locked up against her will. Women often had no say at all over their own destiny. Being locked away in a mental asylum was one of those things they ultimately had no control over if a man in their lives decided that's where they belonged. If Andrew wanted her in there, and believed her to be a danger to either herself or her family, he would have been within his rights to put her there.
You are quite correct that some people had influence back then to lock someone up who didn't need it...interesting trivia: Did you know the word Hysterical comes from the rood word "HYSTER" meaning uterus? (HYSTERectomy means surgical removal of the uterus, HYSTERitis means inflammation of the uterus) HYSTERical behaviour was thought to come from a woman's uterus moving around. By the late 1800's female hysteria was thought to be brought on by sexual dysfunction, and the treatment was "a massage of the genitals until orgasm" ...WOW talk about sexist!
Sexist is an understatement. The genital massage I've heard about. It was this technique that lead to the invention of what I would delicately refer to as mechanical toys today. Doctors found using such devices more expedient than manual stimulation. Since hysteria was thought to be a recurrent disease it meant a woman was more than likely going to require ongoing treatment. Sexual dysfunction was only one of the alleged causes for hysteria. Although that started out as the leading cause. If you read medical journals from the time pretty much everything but breathing could potentially cause a woman to become hysterical. Too much sleep, not enough sleep, too much mental stimulation, sexual frustration, digestive problems, riding a bicycle...etc. A few symptoms of "hysteria" I've found listed in different medical journals and sources included faintness, insomnia, fluid retention, irritability, restlessness, loss of appetite, sudden weight gain, shortness of breath, being too outspoken and overbearing, listlessness, being easily distracted, being too excitable, forgetfulness, being quick to anger, and so many more that just seem to me like normal behaviors under any given circumstances.
Using big words and fancy language doesn't make you sound educated. What makes you sound educated is knowing what the hell you're talking about.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

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Catbooks, I too have thought about the thoughtlessness of Abby sending Bridget out to do such a physically taxing job on such a hot day and played around with the theory that maybe she wanted to have words with Lizzie without any nearby witnesses.
However, I believe that Thursdays were usual for washing windows in the Borden household, though I'd have to check on Bridget's testimony to be sure of it. Abby was not usually an inconsiderate employer, I'm sure, (Bridget liked the Bordens and she wasn't overworked.) I suppose Abby was just thinking 'those windows need a wash.' I believe she remarked 'They are awful dirty.'
My other reason for discounting that Abby wanted a word or two with Lizzy is that she knew that Lizzy was a very moody person who disliked her, to say the least! I don't mean that I think that Abby anticipated violence. I just think she was timid and if she was going to speak out about anything she would have waited to do it in Andrew's presence.
There were undercurrents in the Borden house that seemed to be rapidly turning toxic. I don't know whether Lizzie burst out in pent-up anger and frustration or whether the attack was spurred on by something she overheard being discussed between her father and uncle. I am certainly not a mental health professional, but I have come to believe that Lizzy had sociopathic tendencies. I think Lizzie took advantage of Bridget being outside. I believe she hid the hatchet in a pile of linen taken from the dining room and trapped her unsuspecting stepmother in the guest room.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Catbooks »

Curryong wrote:Catbooks, I too have thought about the thoughtlessness of Abby sending Bridget out to do such a physically taxing job on such a hot day and played around with the theory that maybe she wanted to have words with Lizzie without any nearby witnesses.
However, I believe that Thursdays were usual for washing windows in the Borden household, though I'd have to check on Bridget's testimony to be sure of it. Abby was not usually an inconsiderate employer, I'm sure, (Bridget liked the Bordens and she wasn't overworked.) I suppose Abby was just thinking 'those windows need a wash.' I believe she remarked 'They are awful dirty.'
My other reason for discounting that Abby wanted a word or two with Lizzy is that she knew that Lizzy was a very moody person who disliked her, to say the least! I don't mean that I think that Abby anticipated violence. I just think she was timid and if she was going to speak out about anything she would have waited to do it in Andrew's presence.
There were undercurrents in the Borden house that seemed to be rapidly turning toxic. I don't know whether Lizzie burst out in pent-up anger and frustration or whether the attack was spurred on by something she overheard being discussed between her father and uncle. I am certainly not a mental health professional, but I have come to believe that Lizzy had sociopathic tendencies. I think Lizzie took advantage of Bridget being outside. I believe she hid the hatchet in a pile of linen taken from the dining room and trapped her unsuspecting stepmother in the guest room.
curryong, the borden's house windows were washed regularly on thursdays? this i didn't know. good grief, how dirty could windows get within a week? i'm in california, and perhaps it's a lot different, but the washing of windows is usually done yearly, maybe twice a year. there would have been a lot more dust then from the unpaved streets, but that aside, are windows usually washed that often back east?

very true, lizzie was hardly feeling cordial to abby, less and less so. but i thought abby's sister (or sister in law?) had said her patience had been tried to the breaking point, or something similar. so i wondered if abby, finally at the end of her rope, might try reasoning with lizzie in some way, privately. i do think she was, in general, a timid person.

the problem, for me, with lizzie overhearing andrew and john saying anything that might have set her off is that they knew she was home, knew the acoustics of the house, so it seems unlikely they'd have been discussing anything of a sensitive nature.

i can't decide what i think about lizzie's psychology. if she truly had sociopathic tendencies, doesn't it seem like we'd have heard about some kind of instances of it later in her life? her hiding the hatchet in the laundry she took upstairs makes sense to me!
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Catbooks »

FactFinder wrote:
PossumPie wrote:
FactFinder wrote:PossumPie that is a wonderful explanation of psychology. Much of it doesn't apply, however, to women in 1892. The ideas about psychology and what was and was not an illness that required being put into an insane asylum were very different. What was and was not a cause for hysteria often reads like a shopping list of normal behavior. Women were considered to become "hysterical" over anything. And if Andrew suspected that Lizzie was a murderer, he could as her father, have her locked up against her will. Women often had no say at all over their own destiny. Being locked away in a mental asylum was one of those things they ultimately had no control over if a man in their lives decided that's where they belonged. If Andrew wanted her in there, and believed her to be a danger to either herself or her family, he would have been within his rights to put her there.
You are quite correct that some people had influence back then to lock someone up who didn't need it...interesting trivia: Did you know the word Hysterical comes from the rood word "HYSTER" meaning uterus? (HYSTERectomy means surgical removal of the uterus, HYSTERitis means inflammation of the uterus) HYSTERical behaviour was thought to come from a woman's uterus moving around. By the late 1800's female hysteria was thought to be brought on by sexual dysfunction, and the treatment was "a massage of the genitals until orgasm" ...WOW talk about sexist!
Sexist is an understatement. The genital massage I've heard about. It was this technique that lead to the invention of what I would delicately refer to as mechanical toys today. Doctors found using such devices more expedient than manual stimulation. Since hysteria was thought to be a recurrent disease it meant a woman was more than likely going to require ongoing treatment. Sexual dysfunction was only one of the alleged causes for hysteria. Although that started out as the leading cause. If you read medical journals from the time pretty much everything but breathing could potentially cause a woman to become hysterical. Too much sleep, not enough sleep, too much mental stimulation, sexual frustration, digestive problems, riding a bicycle...etc. A few symptoms of "hysteria" I've found listed in different medical journals and sources included faintness, insomnia, fluid retention, irritability, restlessness, loss of appetite, sudden weight gain, shortness of breath, being too outspoken and overbearing, listlessness, being easily distracted, being too excitable, forgetfulness, being quick to anger, and so many more that just seem to me like normal behaviors under any given circumstances.
i saw a movie a month or so about exactly this, and how it lead to the invention of the vibrator. it's called hysteria.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1435513/?ref_=nv_sr_1

factfinder, that laundry list of 'symptoms' reminds me a lot of charlotte perkins gilman's semi-autobiographical short story, 'the yellow wallpaper.' someone mentioned this in another thread i read. perhaps it was you. it's a horrifying story, but so well written. i'm a fan of cpg.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Curryong »

Quick reply about washing windows. In Fall River appearances, in the way of shiny panes, were everything, it seems!
Mrs Churchill's evidence at the Inquest about sighting poor old Bridget hard at it on that Thursday morning.

Q. Do you remember how long before that time she had been out washing windows, whether that same week or the
week before?
A. I don't think she washed windows but once a week and Thursday was generally the day.
Q. It was the habit to wash the windows once a week?
A. She generally did.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Aamartin »

living near an unpaved road -- dirty windows
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Curryong »

Yes, and all the other delightful things flying through the air in a 19th century mill town, including minute specks of horse manure. Poor Bridget!
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Catbooks »

Curryong wrote:Quick reply about washing windows. In Fall River appearances, in the way of shiny panes, were everything, it seems!
Mrs Churchill's evidence at the Inquest about sighting poor old Bridget hard at it on that Thursday morning.

Q. Do you remember how long before that time she had been out washing windows, whether that same week or the
week before?
A. I don't think she washed windows but once a week and Thursday was generally the day.
Q. It was the habit to wash the windows once a week?
A. She generally did.
thank you!

well then, so much for the mystery of abby asking bridget to wash them that day. there's one thing i can cross off of my borden list of 'isn't it odd that _____?'
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by PossumPie »

Wow, I have a confession to make. We usually wash our windows once in the spring and once in the fall.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Curryong »

Ah, but you don't have a maid to send out to do the task! Or do you!
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Catbooks »

PossumPie wrote:Wow, I have a confession to make. We usually wash our windows once in the spring and once in the fall.
as do we! so the idea of anyone washing the house windows once a week, every week, never even occurred to me.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Aamartin »

I do it twice a year as well-- on the outside. But I also use a razor blade to get them pristine. Inside? If a dog's nose can reach it, (I have 4) it gets done when it needs it!

But sheer curtains and soft lighting can hide a multitude of sins (and dust).
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