MENTAL ILLNESS

This the place to have frank, but cordial, discussions of the Lizzie Borden case

Moderator: Adminlizzieborden

User avatar
SallyG
Posts: 492
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Sally Glynn
Location: Gainesville, Florida
Contact:

Post by SallyG »

Allen @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:58 pm wrote:
SallyG @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:44 pm wrote: I doubt Nance saw Lizzie as a friend....I think she was just using her and when she didn't need her anymore, she didn't bother with her. What is interesting is that Lizzie could actually appear charming and totally normal to outsiders. That is typical bi-polar behavior. The closer you get to them, and the longer you are with them, their mood swings and outbursts begin to focus on you. Nance could have begun to experience Lizzies "bad side" and decided it was time to part company.
I would like to point out this is not "typical" bi-polar behavior. Yes people suffering from bi-polar can possess these traits and characteristics. But to say that it's "typical" behavior implies that all of us do. There are verying degrees of the illness. I certainly am not violent, I don't attack people, and I've certainly never wanted to murder anyone. I'm being painted as an ugly person without anyone even realizing it, so I thought I'd take a minute to point that out.
Thank you, Allen. You are correct in saying that people suffer from varying degrees of the illness, and if you have a mild disorder, you are one of the lucky ones. Bi-polar disorder can be treated successfully. But in many people it's quite serious and does cause very ugly behavior. I had no intention of offending any here who does suffer from it.....at the same time, I have had a lot of experience with bi-polar individuals. As I said, my ex-husband suffered from it and was non-compliant with his medication. In his outbursts of rage, I was choked, beaten, had a knife to my throat, a gun to my head, and was lucky to escape with my life. On an upward cycle, he was a charming man. My son is with a bi-polar girlfriend. Tomorrow morning he is driving from San Diego to Las Vegas to care for my 21 year old son who suffered a head injury a couple of weeks ago. Tonight she flew into a rage when he informed her he had to go, and called him every name she could think of, and began throwing things at him. In a couple of days she will be fine again. Same type of behavior from my brothers first wife, and my cousins ex-girlfriend.

So perhaps I should reword the phrase...it is typical behavior for many bi-polar individuals, but most definitely not for all.
User avatar
SallyG
Posts: 492
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Sally Glynn
Location: Gainesville, Florida
Contact:

Post by SallyG »

RayS @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:46 pm wrote:
Shelley @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:50 am wrote:All this time we though the attorneys kept Lizzie off the stand because she was not a good liar and might crack or become temperamental. It may have been because it would become clear to the jury and all present after much cross examination that there was someting just a little "wrong" with her. She also had some of her home things brought to her cell in Taunton- and special food delivered-not your average prisoner. Maybe it was not just because she was a Borden.... the cell might have been for more of a "patient".
Wrong, wrong, wrong!!! Lizzie was on remand, she was not a convict.
They may do things differently these days.
Lizzie's lawyer did the right thing. Lizzie wasn't guilty, so the best thing was to keep her off the stand given the complete lack of evidence against her. I'm not a lawyer, but I think I understand this case.
Let's explore something, Ray. The morning of the murder, there were 2 people in the house. Just 2. Bridget and Lizzie. No one else. Bridget had absolutely no reason to murder Andrew and Abby. That leaves Lizzie. Lizzie obviously did have a reason, since they were both hacked to bits.

The house was locked, back door, and front door. No one had access to the house. What reputable witnesses do we have that saw William Borden, or anyone else enter or leave the house, or saw anyone suspicious in the vicinity? Reputable witnesses.

While I DO believe Lizzie did it, and I enjoy trying to pin down a reason for her to do it, I have to admit I have an open mind to other solutions. I have read your posts with interest, and I realize you firmly believe in Brown's solution. I fully intend to read Browns book when I get the chance, and give his theory total consideration. In the meantime, the theory of Lizzie suffering from mental illness occurs to me, and may explain a lot of things. It's a theory to explore and consider. Not saying it's what happened, but it's worth consideration, thought, and research.
User avatar
Shelley
Posts: 3949
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:22 pm
Real Name:
Location: CT
Contact:

Post by Shelley »

http://wwwsoc.nii.ac.jp/dickens/archive ... 20times%22

This will take you to a fascinating paper about Charles Dickens' (one of Lizzie's favorites) interest in treatment of the hysterically insane in Victorian times, one of his afflicted female characters, Miss Haversham, and outlines some VERY interesting symptoms which will sound familiar. It's worth wading through.


The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four Americans is suffering from some form of mental illness. Think of your three best friends. If they're okay, then it's you. :wink:
User avatar
SallyG
Posts: 492
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Sally Glynn
Location: Gainesville, Florida
Contact:

Post by SallyG »

Kat @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:03 pm wrote:This saga is very interesting and entertaining. It's a good combination of give and take and taking a good idea and running with it to see where it goes.
However, not to be a party pooper, there are some issues that should be dealt with, such as sources. Broad, or sweeping statements can get one carried away. The statements made should be able to be backed up with sources to have any validity. Otherwise it's fiction.

Some of these can be toned down and still be valid- like when one says "Andrew obviously adored Lizzie."
Or "Andrew seems to have gone to great lengths to placate Lizzie." If one wishes to give multiple sources to prove the depth or breadth of statements such as these, then they can use this kind of phrasing. I suggest tho, that just by toning it down a notch, one could get away with a more sedate version and not really need a source. I hope that makes sense. It would still have value, but not be over-the-top.

When we "start back at the beginning" about Lizzie's mother there are quotes around the phrases "peculiar spells" and "fits of anger" and the source seems to be "by many witness accounts." If this is the foundation of the theory presented here, one should be ready to show the source for that, especially when quotes are used.

Another place this shows up is the extreme statement: "from all accounts of her personality, Emma seems to have been a very passive person..."- The problem lies in the sweeping stateent "from all accounts."
Also:
"It's very apparent she [Lizzie] loved her father," another sweeping statement. It's not that very apparent, unless you show us.

"He [Andrew] had made the statement to others that that particular summer he was not going over to Swansea because of trouble in the family."-- there is, I think, one person who says this- but "others" makes it sound like common knowledge- this would need a source. If this were closer to *he had made the statement to another* then it could be be in better balance without much controversy.
Maybe it is the sense of exaggeration that is not needed?

Twice here also, there has been the mild error of stating that Lizzie went to Alice Russell's on Thursday evening. We know it was Wednesday evening, and this is just to point that out to readers who may not know.

Alice Russell did not describe Lizzie as "babbling" that Wednesday night. What Andrew was espied as having in his hands when he arrived home was considered as a book or a package or paper, but not " a roll of papers in his hand."

Trial, Bridget:
Q. Did you see whether he had anything or not?
A. He had a little parcel in his hand, same as a paper or a book; I can't tell what it was.
- - -
Mrs. Dr. Kelley
Prelim
209
Q. Did he have anything in his hand at that time?
A. I think he had a small white package?
- - - -
The statement that Andrew said " 'Come back for lunch, John' , making sure that Lizzie was within earshot," is specualtion. Bridget was the one within earshot that we know of. Lizzie claimed not to have come down before Morse left. She makes a point of not coming down until Morse leaves, so it must be important. However, if Morse and Bridget back up what Lizzie may say, then we are at loose ends. I am of the opinion that after Andrew left we do not know what happened in that house.

As for the horse and equipage parked outside the house, it was maintained here that there were "witnesses" who saw this, but we had recently had the discussion where we showed that one person gave testimony about seeing the parked conveyance.

At the last page of The Witness Statements, 46, it says, by McHenry:
" I also elicited the fact that one George Wiley, a clerk in the Troy Mill is the one who is authority for the statement that Mrs. Churchill made that she (Mrs. Churchill) said, that there was one thing she saw in the house the day of the murder, that she would never repeat, even if they tore her tongue out."
It's a great quote, but we need to keep in mind it is by McHenry who is a questionable source and it is supposedly Churchill to Wiley to McHenry, if that.

This is an enjoyable topic, the energy is good and the flow is very nice- plesae excuse a word of caution here.

I haven't read page 2 yet! You guys are fast. :smile:
Thank you for the input, Kat. I appreciate it. I formulated the idea and went with it. Sort of like getting the idea for a story, putting down the info so as not to forget your thoughts, and going from there. Obviously it needs to be researched and refined. I worked for a newspaper for 9 years, and my initial ideas were put down, researched, and worked up into a final product. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. But I figured it might be of interest to some who have more knowledge of the case and the details.
User avatar
Kat
Posts: 14756
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
Real Name:
Location: Central Florida

Post by Kat »

I could find sources for some of the things you wrote, but it would take me some time. You have a good grasp of the finer points.
I appreciate that you reply that you understand a further or future need to provide sources for validity. And I understand this is a *light* treatment, but not *light-hearted.* Thanks for understanding.
User avatar
theebmonique
Posts: 2771
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:08 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Tracy Townsend
Location: Ogden, Utah

Post by theebmonique »

What is the appropriate way to show sources for our own personal experience with a particular topic such as that of this thread ?





Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
Oscar
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:05 am
Real Name:
Location: Rochester, NY

Post by Oscar »

I'm sure if Lizzie was that mentally ill, to have commited murder in a Manic episode, or whatever, wouldn't it have shown up later in life, and would she have been able to manage a household, Maplecroft, live independently as she did? She may certainly have had a personality disorder, such as narcissism, (and greed), but I don't buy that she had a major mental illness and could still function later in life as she apparently did.
User avatar
snokkums
Posts: 2545
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:09 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Robin
Location: fayetteville nc,but from milwaukee
Contact:

Post by snokkums »

Oscar @ Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:21 am wrote:I'm sure if Lizzie was that mentally ill, to have commited murder in a Manic episode, or whatever, wouldn't it have shown up later in life, and would she have been able to manage a household, Maplecroft, live independently as she did? She may certainly have had a personality disorder, such as narcissism, (and greed), but I don't buy that she had a major mental illness and could still function later in life as she apparently did.
It is possible to have a mental illness and run a household and even hold down a job. I have bi-polar,and I have a job and live on my own.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
RayS
Posts: 2508
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 pm
Real Name:
Location: Bordentown NJ

Post by RayS »

It is possible to have a mental illness and run a household and even hold down a job. I have bi-polar,and I have a job and live on my own.
"Mental Illness" is such a vague term that it can apply to most people, except the ones diagnosing it for their self-serving interests.
Any claim that MI is common is just another way brow-beat politicians and insurance companies into giving more money to those who claim it is a Big Problem.
What do they call people who ask "cui bono"?
That's the famous Roman saying "who benefits", as valid today as 2,000 years ago. In case you want to understand the laws passed by your politicians.
I wonder if MI was a big problem 200 years ago?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
RayS
Posts: 2508
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 pm
Real Name:
Location: Bordentown NJ

Post by RayS »

Shelley @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:02 pm wrote:
RayS @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:40 pm wrote:Is there any documentary proof for this speculation?
Then what is its purpose?
Of course there is no documentary proof- ...
Actually "insane" was pretty commonly bandied about such as the link I gave on historic asylums earlier. There was the asylum for insane children as one case in point. They did not have syphillis surely. I don't think we were contending Lizzie was a drooling maniac, just not "quite shuffling a full deck" as we used to say.

Kleptomania is not a sign of a healthy mind- there is that evidence as recently as the Tilden and Thurber episode with the stolen porcelain plaque. That the defense had churned up that bit about her mother's spells and Mrs. Ladowick Borden's suicide/homicides and had that at the ready might indicate that they thought the jury in a pinch might buy the notion of a "mentally disturbed" Lizzie if all else went wrong. She was not popular with her peers, never could a romantic suitor be found, in spite of all her Poppa's money, and she felt comfortable with her animals and one or two trusted friends, to whom she left her money.

These things separately may not be all that odd, but collectively add up to someone who was more than just a social maladroit. Lizzie's real mother asked Emma to "always look after Lizzie"- and that could be taken a number of ways. Breaking into Abby's room, mistreating Abby's relatives, all may be pretty tame things to do to a step parent , but not terribly adult at age 30 or well-balanced. If we are to believe Eli Bence, trying to buy Prussic acid sounds a little deranged too in my book :lol:
First the spread of syphilis was very common in the late 19th and early 20th century. Children with congenital syphilis did not live long. (Some claim this explains the death of A. Lincoln's yoiunger children and the mental problems of his widow. There is at least one book on its effects in history, such as "Royal Babylon", and others.)
The death of parents by disease would produce orphans. Poor nutrition is another cause of mental problems in children. Life is more complicated than you may imagine.
You can look up the case of Carrie Buck. The legislator who passed the Virginia Sterilization Law (later copied by Nazi Germany) was refused insurance because his father died of syphilis and his mother had a problem.
I truly believe many of you need to educate yourself with further readings on the times of that era (late 19th century).
You sound very naive to me. Lizzie or anyone else who disdained poorer relatives by marriage is not that strange. Have you never experienced this in your life?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
User avatar
Shelley
Posts: 3949
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:22 pm
Real Name:
Location: CT
Contact:

Post by Shelley »

The question is, what's normal? With one in four people today suffering some form of affliction from agoraphobia to anorexia, we are all inhabiting the planet with a lot of people with problems. I suspect that was the case back in 1892- and with no good meds to help manage these illnesses either.

One great benefit of working at the house is meeting Lizzie scholars from all walks of life with specialized knowledge. We all love to kick back on that black sofa and put forth ideas and theories. Recently a psychiatric nurse stayed for three days and what great conversation circled that diningroom table about Lizzie's stability. This nurse was a supporter of the petit mal seizure theory and gave some good background material in her clinical experience.

I was also intrigued to hear recently of a new syndrome similar to what we call Road Rage- that has become so prevalent today, namely people who are, for brief interludes, goaded into outbursts of irrational behaviour -I think it was called something like Temporary Rage Syndrome-you may have seen it on the Today show. When the impetus for these irrational fits is removed-the cause is gone-these folks can resume a placid life in the fishtank with the rest of us!
RayS
Posts: 2508
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 pm
Real Name:
Location: Bordentown NJ

Post by RayS »

Let's explore something, Ray. The morning of the murder, there were 2 people in the house. Just 2. Bridget and Lizzie. No one else. Bridget had absolutely no reason to murder Andrew and Abby. That leaves Lizzie. Lizzie obviously did have a reason, since they were both hacked to bits.

The house was locked, back door, and front door. No one had access to the house. What reputable witnesses do we have that saw William Borden, or anyone else enter or leave the house, or saw anyone suspicious in the vicinity? Reputable witnesses.
If you read some books, like David Kent or others, you will learn who was seen hanging around the house that day. YOU are being arbitrary (and wrong) in saying "No one else."
We know that Uncle John was able to enter from the back w/o notice even tho a crowd had gathered out front, and later left that evening somehow w/o being noticed. Your explanation of this?
Edward Radin, crime reporter for a NY daily, covered hundreds of trials. He suggested Bridget as a suspect; "disgruntled employee kills boss" is a common headline, isn't it?

Most of all, the brutal murder of an old couple is out of character for a lady like Lizzie, then or now. IF they had died of poison, that would be a horse of a different color. Pardon my old analogy.

SO how do you explain the lack of bloodstains on clothing, and the missing weapon? Please don't tell me you don't believe this!!!
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
RayS
Posts: 2508
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 pm
Real Name:
Location: Bordentown NJ

Post by RayS »

Shelley @ Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:00 pm wrote:The question is, what's normal? With one in four people today suffering some form of affliction from agoraphobia to anorexia, we are all inhabiting the planet with a lot of people with problems. I suspect that was the case back in 1892- and with no good meds to help manage these illnesses either.

One great benefit of working at the house is meeting Lizzie scholars from all walks of life with specialized knowledge. We all love to kick back on that black sofa and put forth ideas and theories. Recently a psychiatric nurse stayed for three days and what great conversation circled that diningroom table about Lizzie's stability. This nurse was a supporter of the petit mal seizure theory and gave some good background material in her clinical experience.
...
Your suspicions are not proof of anything, except a need to rationalize them. How do you explain that?
WHO today supports the "epileptic Lizzie" theory? Any proof? You do know that "epilepsy" was another side effect of syphilis?
(I'm not a physician, all I know comes from reading old books.)
Even Victoria Lincoln, who invented this theory, could not find two physicians who could be quoted!
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
User avatar
Allen
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Me

Post by Allen »

Since this thread has centered alot around bi-polar, which I myself have, I thought I'd explain a little about myself since only the more extreme forms have been talked about. I am married with two children. I am currently enrolled in college for Criminal Justice and will graduate this year. Except for depressive episodes which can be pretty low at times, I live a normal life. I also admit I have mood swings. My children have obviously taken notice. I've been questioned about it. I've tried to answer their questions as best I can.

My mood swings can consist of going from being happy one minute to sad or upset the next. I feel these emotions with no idea as to what's causing them, or why they change. There are times in the past I've thought of doing outrageous things when upset like cutting off my long hair just for spite. There are days I don't want to get out of bed. There are days I don't want to be bothered by anyone at all, so I just stay in my room. I have some irrational fears, such as driving on the highway scares me to death. But none these are not every day occurances. It's very random. I have extended periods where I do not feel any of these symptoms at all. I am pretty happy and upbeat. Then I crash again.

But I run my household, take care of my children, pay bills etc. I also have experience with it past those of my own. My mother and both of my sisters suffer from depression. My aunt I am very close to is bi-polar. I have a friend I've known for years who is bi-polar. I think it tends to run in a family. If one person has it, there will be others with similar disorders. Many people in my family suffer from various forms of depressive disorders and we are all currently on medication. It's very frustrating for those around us who do not understand what we are going through. My husband simply can't fathom that I can be sad, even cry, and not know why. But none of us have ever been violent, or deceptive and charming just to get what we want, or any of the other traits mentioned above. I can become angry and say hurtful things at times, yes. I can know at the time they are hurtful. I still say them. Then I feel badly about it. I have noticed some of these certain family members have a tendency to be very petty and can hold a grudge til the cows come home. They are very touchy also, and take things the wrong way a lot. This can cause friction and hurt feelings over the smallest things. I don't know if the these are linked or are just character traits they would still possess without the depression.

My aunt was married to a schizophrenic for many years. She said he didn't start out that way it was a gradual process as he decended further into it. Soon he became violent, highly paranoid, irrational, and was a very unpredicatable volatile personality. He lived with the fear that people were always not only laughing at him, but out to get him. She once told me a story of how he locked all the doors in the house one night, then tied all the doorknobs together in each room because he was afraid someone was trying to get in to get him. What if Lizzie had suffered from this illness? Personally I think any mental illness she suffered from would've manifested itself in later years. She was always under public scrutiny. I think there would be some record of it.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
Harry
Posts: 4061
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:28 pm
Real Name: harry
Location: South Carolina

Post by Harry »

Milton Reed, a Fall River lawyer at the time of the murders, gave an interesting interview to the Fall River Herald. I know the interview was in August 1892 but not the specific date. In part it reads:

"... The deed does not appear like that of a person who was perfectly rational. In every detail it shows the stubborn and dogged brutality of the insane. Now when you re-establish it as the work of an insane person you have gone a great way towards the solution of the case.
Try to find out who there was who might have had a monomania so aggravated as to incite him to this deed, who the person was who might have committed the murder under this mental aberration. Question them
to ascertain the character of their mania. You might find men who would be mentally sound upon a hundred questions, and, upon the one hundred and first, insane. You might find them rational on a thousand questions, and a raving lunatic on the one thousand and first.
"I don't know Lizzie Borden, but there are people who are liable to know as to whether or not she was mentally weak upon any one question such as to give credit to a probability that it might have excited her to murder. ..."

Bold type is mine.

I'm no doctor and I have no idea whether this could be true but if it was it would go a long way explaining how Lizzie could function "normally" until the trigger for her mania is encountered. It would also explain that once the trigger is eliminated (via the murders) that she would function "normally" after.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
RayS
Posts: 2508
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 pm
Real Name:
Location: Bordentown NJ

Post by RayS »

Shelley @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:49 am wrote:Children are always astute , if not merciful judges . Lizzie seemed to be a loner growing up, one or two trusted friends as a child. Not popular. Kids that are "different", odd, peculiar, whatever, are frequently shunned. Note the church work as well. If she had had social graces, and all her marbles- would they have shunted her off to teach Chinese Mission kids? Knowing how well-connected her Papa was in the business world, they usually would put such a daughter in a coveted and desired position at church.
HA HA HA!!! "astute"? Children repeat what their parents tell them, or other children (and their parents or influences).
WHERE did you read that Lizzie was a "loner"? I'm not necessarily disagreeing, I just want to be sure you are not misleading yourself, and others. Did you go to school with Lizzie and Emma? And what about Emma?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
User avatar
Shelley
Posts: 3949
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:22 pm
Real Name:
Location: CT
Contact:

Post by Shelley »

Having been a secondary and on occasion, elementary school teacher, and for a short time, a special needs and LD assistant and student advocate, I can assure you that children who are different, challenged in some physical or mental capacity are often cruelly labelled and ridiculed by those students who do not face these challenges. Such "normal" children are amazingly quick to hone in on someone who has difficulties and can be proper little meanies about making life miserable by name-calling, rude behaviour and ostracism.

The concept that Lizzie had a select few friends is not a new one. There exists a letter stating that upon their return from that 1890's tour, a welcome home party was given at the Central for the returning ladies. At the end of the celebration, no gentleman wanted to come forth to see the "Borden girls" home. Mr. Morse in his interview to the Herald cited her sullen nature. Perhaps "loner" is too strong a word. Not wildly popular with her own set and peers might come closer to it. How far back this pattern of keeping company with spinsters, widows and church ladies would be hard to ascertain. If her going out to church with Dr. Bowen when her family was away caused tongues to wag- I suppose it was safest to hang out with the hens. I think we will know much more about Lizzie's younger life next year with the publication of the Historical Society's book.
User avatar
Harry
Posts: 4061
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:28 pm
Real Name: harry
Location: South Carolina

Post by Harry »

Shelley, loner describes her childhood fairly accurately. There is this article

"The Boston Herald, Saturday, August 6, 1892
LIZZIE BORDEN
Her School and Later Life –
A Noble Woman, Though Retiring

"... Desiring to present this young woman as her friends have known her, to picture her as she daily appeared among women, the writer spent the greater part of the afternoon and evening in conversation with Lizzie's friends.
They talked of her life, of her inclinations, her interest in church work, her modesty of manner, unswerving sincerity, gentle forbearance and aspirations to be and to do all that is best and right in life. From the consensus of opinion it can well be said: Lizzie Borden's life is full of good works, kindly offices in the church and in the society of her friends.
---------------
As a child she was of a very sensitive nature, inclined to be non-communicative with new acquaintances, and this characteristic has tenaciously clung to her all through life, and has been erroneously interpreted. Her sister, being older, was a constant guide and an idolized companion. An unusual circumstance is that of her practically having no choice of friends until she attained womanhood. At the usual age she was sent to the Morgan street school, embracing primary and grammar schools. Her school days were perhaps unlike most girls in this lack of affiliation with her fellow pupils. ..."

The article goes on to explain her "remarkable change" when at the age of 27 she joined the activities of the church.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
User avatar
Allen
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Me

Post by Allen »

I have thought about Lizzie and who she formed friendships with a lot in the past. In my opinion, it seems she formed friendships with those she found less threatening to her. I think she wanted to be the dominant one. Did she dislike men, or feel threatened by them? This could be why she chose to become friends with only unmarried or widowed ladies, or with women from the church doing activities that only other women would be involved in. She did have a friendship in later years with some of her male employees, but they were in fact employees. She was the boss. She gave the orders. This gave her a sort of power over them she didn't otherwise have, a sort of upper hand. Why did she never marry? Or even have a boyfriend that we have proof of? She had spent most of her life being ruled by her father and living under his roof. What men did she really have experience in dealing, or as role models, besides her father and John Morse? Could this have colored her view of all men in general?

In her later years it seems many of her close friends were her servants. Was it because she felt no threat from them, or could it have been that they were there in the house with her every day, serving her loyally, and this was the most loyalty and respect she had experienced in quite some time? Everyone else pretty much avoided her.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
RayS
Posts: 2508
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 pm
Real Name:
Location: Bordentown NJ

Post by RayS »

Shelley @ Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:46 pm wrote:Having been a secondary and on occasion, elementary school teacher, and for a short time, a special needs and LD assistant and student advocate, I can assure you that children who are different, challenged in some physical or mental capacity are often cruelly labelled and ridiculed by those students who do not face these challenges. Such "normal" children are amazingly quick to hone in on someone who has difficulties and can be proper little meanies about making life miserable by name-calling, rude behaviour and ostracism.

The concept that Lizzie had a select few friends is not a new one. There exists a letter stating that upon their return from that 1890's tour, a welcome home party was given at the Central for the returning ladies. At the end of the celebration, no gentleman wanted to come forth to see the "Borden girls" home. Mr. Morse in his interview to the Herald cited her sullen nature. Perhaps "loner" is too strong a word. Not wildly popular with her own set and peers might come closer to it. How far back this pattern of keeping company with spinsters, widows and church ladies would be hard to ascertain. If her going out to church with Dr. Bowen when her family was away caused tongues to wag- I suppose it was safest to hang out with the hens. I think we will know much more about Lizzie's younger life next year with the publication of the Historical Society's book.
Is THAT (first paragraph) the true meaning of "astute"? I think not. So what did you do to correct this meanness?Note how you are jumping from a situation you observed to something that happened over 120 years ago that you didn't witness?
A "letter" that has no provenance is just another term for 'gossip'. Did that person really witness that event?
And what has that to do with Lizzie's youth (grammar schooling)?
Will you admit you are jumping to conclusions because that is where you want to go?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
User avatar
Shelley
Posts: 3949
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:22 pm
Real Name:
Location: CT
Contact:

Post by Shelley »

I stand by that word, astute (look it up) "Having or showing shrewdness and discernment, especially with respect to one's own concerns" fits the use to perfection especially in the reference indicated above. Since you ask in such a gentlemanly way, Mr. S. I will get the citation for that letter.
My performance in the classroom in correcting unkind behavior towards challenged and ostracized children is hardly germain to this forum.
User avatar
theebmonique
Posts: 2771
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:08 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Tracy Townsend
Location: Ogden, Utah

Post by theebmonique »

Melissa,

Thank you very much for sharing your personal experience with bipolar disorder. It was very enlightening and informative.





Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
User avatar
Allen
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Me

Post by Allen »

Harry @ Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:06 pm wrote:Shelley, loner describes her childhood fairly accurately. There is this article

"The Boston Herald, Saturday, August 6, 1892
LIZZIE BORDEN
Her School and Later Life –
A Noble Woman, Though Retiring

"... Desiring to present this young woman as her friends have known her, to picture her as she daily appeared among women, the writer spent the greater part of the afternoon and evening in conversation with Lizzie's friends.
They talked of her life, of her inclinations, her interest in church work, her modesty of manner, unswerving sincerity, gentle forbearance and aspirations to be and to do all that is best and right in life. From the consensus of opinion it can well be said: Lizzie Borden's life is full of good works, kindly offices in the church and in the society of her friends.
---------------
As a child she was of a very sensitive nature, inclined to be non-communicative with new acquaintances, and this characteristic has tenaciously clung to her all through life, and has been erroneously interpreted. Her sister, being older, was a constant guide and an idolized companion. An unusual circumstance is that of her practically having no choice of friends until she attained womanhood. At the usual age she was sent to the Morgan street school, embracing primary and grammar schools. Her school days were perhaps unlike most girls in this lack of affiliation with her fellow pupils. ..."

The article goes on to explain her "remarkable change" when at the age of 27 she joined the activities of the church.
Thanks for typing all that out Harry. What strikes me are the lines that read "to picture her as she daily appeared among women" and "her sister, being older, was a constant guide and idolized companion." When I read that last line a thought occured to me. Could Emma have had something to do with Lizzie not making friends as a child in some way? If Emma really was Lizzie's 'constant guide and idol' that implies she had a lot of influence over young Lizzie. Could Lizzie have been behaving as she saw her sister behave, or maybe Emma wanted to keep Lizzie's attention all to herself?
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
Allen
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Me

Post by Allen »

RayS @ Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:16 am wrote:
Shelley @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:49 am wrote:Children are always astute , if not merciful judges . Lizzie seemed to be a loner growing up, one or two trusted friends as a child. Not popular. Kids that are "different", odd, peculiar, whatever, are frequently shunned. Note the church work as well. If she had had social graces, and all her marbles- would they have shunted her off to teach Chinese Mission kids? Knowing how well-connected her Papa was in the business world, they usually would put such a daughter in a coveted and desired position at church.
To clarify we have a record of Lizzie teaching a chinese man, not children. I would also think this would go along with the charitable ideas of the church to teach a Chinese man English. I wouldn't think it would be considered being shunted off.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
SallyG
Posts: 492
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Sally Glynn
Location: Gainesville, Florida
Contact:

Post by SallyG »

Allen @ Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:04 pm wrote:
RayS @ Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:16 am wrote:
Shelley @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:49 am wrote:Children are always astute , if not merciful judges . Lizzie seemed to be a loner growing up, one or two trusted friends as a child. Not popular. Kids that are "different", odd, peculiar, whatever, are frequently shunned. Note the church work as well. If she had had social graces, and all her marbles- would they have shunted her off to teach Chinese Mission kids? Knowing how well-connected her Papa was in the business world, they usually would put such a daughter in a coveted and desired position at church.
To clarify we have a record of Lizzie teaching a chinese man, not children. I would also think this would go along with the charitable ideas of the church to teach a Chinese man English. I wouldn't think it would be considered being shunted off.
Thank you for that clarification. I had read before she had been assigned to teach a class of chinese children, and got upset because she could not control the class. I believe that was in Lincoln's book.
User avatar
Allen
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Me

Post by Allen »

Rebello page 12:

"Lizzie Borden: Her School and Later Life - Noble Woman, Though Retiring,: Boston Daily Globe, Sunday, August 7, 1892:6.

"She was given a class of rough, untutored boys and labored with them until her courage was almost gone and then she was given some girls to teach. Also connected with the church is a Chinese Sunday school and Miss Lizzie took one of the men to instruct. She had good success and her pupil has since left Fall River."


Also in Rebello on page10-11:

"..We find her at the Morgan Grammer school when she was 14. Then she was a stout, blooming, strapping lass. Her great characteristic was keeping to herself. She had one and one only chum, a girl of about her own age, who is now married and lives in Rhode Island. Her exclusiveness was just because of her nature. She had a sharp, sarcastic tongue, and was inclined to use it when not let alone.

At 16 she entered the high school, but got tired of going to school and quit during the course. While in High School, she was taking piano lessons. She remained at home and devoted herself to her music awhile after leaving school.

Her favorite historical character was Queen Elizabeth.

Her chief quality was her secretiveness. Such was Lizzie Borden the school girl. Lizzie Borden, the woman is just the same, her mental character unchanged except one thing. The single influence that has changed Lizzie Borden is religion. How it has affected her only God and her pastor know.

The Central Congregational Church is always having new recruits. On one of these occassions Lizzie Borden joined the church. This was in 1885. Lizzie Borden, the church member, devoted herself to Sunday School and other work with great constancy. She was a figure in every department of church activity. All the allied societies of the Central Church - temperance, benevolence, social, etc..-found in her an interested member and one who was always on hand.

With a party of friends, Miss Borden made a tour of Europe in 1890. She remained on the continent for three months, under the chaperonage of Miss Cox of Taunton [Massachusetts]. They visited London, traversed Scotland, saw Paris and spent some time in Rome. Lizzie brought home a large collection of photographs of buildings and copies of works of the great masters. She was particularly fond of Raphel's "Sistene Madona" and brought home several large copies of it. She had pictures of St. Peter's at Rome and other great European Cathedral's." Boston Evening Recorder, June 5, 1893:4.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
SallyG
Posts: 492
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Sally Glynn
Location: Gainesville, Florida
Contact:

Post by SallyG »

RayS @ Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:16 am wrote:
Shelley @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:49 am wrote:Children are always astute , if not merciful judges . Lizzie seemed to be a loner growing up, one or two trusted friends as a child. Not popular. Kids that are "different", odd, peculiar, whatever, are frequently shunned. Note the church work as well. If she had had social graces, and all her marbles- would they have shunted her off to teach Chinese Mission kids? Knowing how well-connected her Papa was in the business world, they usually would put such a daughter in a coveted and desired position at church.
HA HA HA!!! "astute"? Children repeat what their parents tell them, or other children (and their parents or influences).
WHERE did you read that Lizzie was a "loner"? I'm not necessarily disagreeing, I just want to be sure you are not misleading yourself, and others. Did you go to school with Lizzie and Emma? And what about Emma?
How many children do you have, Ray? I've raised 5, and I can tell you, children are well able to think for themselves and form opinions of others without any input from anyone else, even at a young age. Don't even try to debate me on this one.
RayS
Posts: 2508
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 pm
Real Name:
Location: Bordentown NJ

Post by RayS »

I also admit I have mood swings.
Does this mean without any external events?
If it means as a reaction to some happy or unhappy events, that seems to be just normal. I'm not trying to get the Govt. to increase funding.

I've often wondered if this is some physical cause. Was this a condition from birth? From childhood (ages 3 to 10)? Or from older times?
Did it change from marriage or divorce?

Some definitions seem so vague as to be meaningless.
But I have never experienced such tthings myself. Just a usual grumpy old man?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
RayS
Posts: 2508
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 pm
Real Name:
Location: Bordentown NJ

Post by RayS »

How many children do you have, Ray? I've raised 5, and I can tell you, children are well able to think for themselves and form opinions of others without any input from anyone else, even at a young age. Don't even try to debate me on this one.
You seem to be saying that you are the sole expert from your personal experience! Is that an objective criteria?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
User avatar
Shelley
Posts: 3949
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:22 pm
Real Name:
Location: CT
Contact:

Post by Shelley »

The reference to the incident at the Congregational Church welcome home party for the Grand Tour ladies detailing the reluctance of any of the males to escort the Borden sisters home is described in the diary entry of Jeannette Wells, which may be found at the FRHS.
User avatar
SallyG
Posts: 492
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Sally Glynn
Location: Gainesville, Florida
Contact:

Post by SallyG »

RayS @ Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:31 pm wrote:
How many children do you have, Ray? I've raised 5, and I can tell you, children are well able to think for themselves and form opinions of others without any input from anyone else, even at a young age. Don't even try to debate me on this one.
You seem to be saying that you are the sole expert from your personal experience! Is that an objective criteria?
You always skirt the question, Ray, and shoot back an obnoxious remark, which is usually totally uncalled for. If you describe yourself as a grumpy old man, I'll tell you what I tell my 76 year old mother...old age is no excuse for bad manners.

Am I the sole expert from my personal experience raising children? Nope. Never claimed to be. I just reread what I said, and I don't see anything in my statement about claiming to be an expert. What I did say, in extremely plain English, was that I raised 5 boys, all had their own opinions about any subject you can imagine, and were able to think for themselves, even as young children. Anyone who has raised children can probably agree with that statement.
User avatar
Allen
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Me

Post by Allen »

Sometimes I think children can have better instincts than an adult when it comes to a persons character.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Oscar
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:05 am
Real Name:
Location: Rochester, NY

Post by Oscar »

snokkums @ Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:30 am wrote:
Oscar @ Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:21 am wrote:I'm sure if Lizzie was that mentally ill, to have commited murder in a Manic episode, or whatever, wouldn't it have shown up later in life, and would she have been able to manage a household, Maplecroft, live independently as she did? She may certainly have had a personality disorder, such as narcissism, (and greed), but I don't buy that she had a major mental illness and could still function later in life as she apparently did.
It is possible to have a mental illness and run a household and even hold down a job. I have bi-polar,and I have a job and live on my own.
HI, I didn't mean to offend you. I used to work in the so called mental health field and worked with a wide range of people of various functioning levels and independance.

I meant that if Lizzie was so ill for people to have considered having her committed (as someone had suggested earlier here) and to have commited the murders in what would be an exceptional manic state, then I'm sure she would have had trouble later on in her life and I have never heard that she had.
User avatar
Kat
Posts: 14756
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
Real Name:
Location: Central Florida

Post by Kat »

Shelley @ Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:42 pm wrote:The reference to the incident at the Congregational Church welcome home party for the Grand Tour ladies detailing the reluctance of any of the males to escort the Borden sisters home is described in the diary entry of Jeannette Wells, which may be found at the FRHS.
This link is to the FRHS archive of their Quarterly Reports online. There is a Charles Henry Wells story on Lizzie there as a download:
http://www.lizzieborden.org/news_archive.asp

I've heard of the story you recount, but I thought it might be lodged at the UMASSAMHERST site?
User avatar
Shelley
Posts: 3949
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:22 pm
Real Name:
Location: CT
Contact:

Post by Shelley »

I will check this weekend Kat- although Len says it is at the FRHS archive. I assume this is the Jeanette who was Charles' wife.
RayS
Posts: 2508
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 pm
Real Name:
Location: Bordentown NJ

Post by RayS »

Allen @ Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:10 pm wrote:Sometimes I think children can have better instincts than an adult when it comes to a persons character.
For you and everyone else, what about the Gaede Twins? Is this an example of your theory?

ABC Primetime Tuesday 8-22-2006 had a report on them. Another example of children regurgitating what their Mother force-fed them

The word "astute" can never apply to children (under 10 years). IMO
Precociousness may be the word you wanted to use. You can check your dictionary and then report if I am wrong.

"Sometimes" is such a weasel-word. It could be that a phony will drop their disguise around children?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
RayS
Posts: 2508
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 pm
Real Name:
Location: Bordentown NJ

Post by RayS »

Allen @ Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:51 pm wrote:Rebello page 12:

"Lizzie Borden: Her School and Later Life - Noble Woman, Though Retiring,: Boston Daily Globe, Sunday, August 7, 1892:6.

"She was given a class of rough, untutored boys and labored with them until her courage was almost gone and then she was given some girls to teach. Also connected with the church is a Chinese Sunday school and Miss Lizzie took one of the men to instruct. She had good success and her pupil has since left Fall River."


Also in Rebello on page10-11:

"..We find her at the Morgan Grammer school when she was 14. Then she was a stout, blooming, strapping lass. Her great characteristic was keeping to herself. She had one and one only chum, a girl of about her own age, who is now married and lives in Rhode Island. Her exclusiveness was just because of her nature. She had a sharp, sarcastic tongue, and was inclined to use it when not let alone.

At 16 she entered the high school, but got tired of going to school and quit during the course. While in High School, she was taking piano lessons. She remained at home and devoted herself to her music awhile after leaving school.

... Boston Evening Recorder, June 5, 1893:4.
First, Lizzie had no experience in training as a teacher. In those days, anyone who finished High School could be a teacher if they passed the tests. Putting a young woman in charge of "rough boys" is formula for failure. A middle-aged man who could use a paddle would be better.
You can read Laura Ingalls Wilder's "Farmer Boy" as a reference book.

Second, do you recall your own high school days? I tended to hang out with the same boys who went to the same grammar school, and from the same neighborhood. In those days most left school at 14 to earn a living (see Dashiell Hammett). Coming from Ferry St (assumed a poor neighborhood), Lizzie may have been shunned by the better off who alone went to High School. Maybe some of us need to know more about the manners of those days. The 1873 Depression was one of the worst, until the 1893 Depresson. Never overlook the effects of economics on society.

Do the boys and girls from wealthy backgrounds still stick together in HS?

Lizzie's piano lessons show her skill and enthusiasm for a subject she liked. Would playing a piano provide a solace missing from family life?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
RayS
Posts: 2508
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 pm
Real Name:
Location: Bordentown NJ

Post by RayS »

Oscar @ Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:52 pm wrote:...
HI, I didn't mean to offend you. I used to work in the so called mental health field and worked with a wide range of people of various functioning levels and independance.

I meant that if Lizzie was so ill for people to have considered having her committed (as someone had suggested earlier here) and to have commited the murders in what would be an exceptional manic state, then I'm sure she would have had trouble later on in her life and I have never heard that she had.
But was this "manic state" ever mentioned in the newspaper accounts?
We know we can't question the people present at that time. Or an you implying this from Lizzie's sedation? Wasn't Patsy Ramsey also sedated after the death in her family?

Your comments on "the so-called mental health field" suggest you can tell us a lot. Just don't mention any names in your recollections.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
User avatar
snokkums
Posts: 2545
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:09 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Robin
Location: fayetteville nc,but from milwaukee
Contact:

Post by snokkums »

I think that we will ever know if she was mentally ill. You know, back then, they considered epelipsy was considered a mental illness and they would have locked her up in the luny bin for that too.

I think she had some problems, and her father knew about it (ie-she was a klptomanic-- thats been proven daddy had to pay off for stuff she took).But I think the family didn't think it was serious enough to lock her up.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
User avatar
Allen
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Me

Post by Allen »

Back then many behaviors were considered grounds to be put away in an asylum. Especially for women who were considered weak, fragile, and more easily affected by such things. Things that today seem utterly ridiculous could very well have someone landed in an institution during that time.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
Allen
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Me

Post by Allen »

RayS @ Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:45 am wrote:

You can read Laura Ingalls Wilder's "Farmer Boy" as a reference book.

I have read every book by and about Laura Ingalls Wilder and a few of the ones written by her daughter Rose Wilder Lane. In my younger days she was my favorite author. I'm an avid reader of history books of all kinds.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
Wordweaver
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:28 am
Real Name:
Location: Silicon Valley
Contact:

Post by Wordweaver »

RayS @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:40 pm wrote:I thought people in those days had to be pretty far gone to be institutionalized.
Keep in mind that "insane" in those days pretty much meant "suffering from the last stages of syphilis".
No, these days it's very difficult to get someone committed and keep them there. Involuntary commitments can be made only when a patient is considered a danger to himself or others. They have to be reviewed by the courts at frequent intervals, and if the patient is considered no longer dangerous, they must be released unless they want to stay on as a voluntary patient. And that's only been true since the early 1970s. It's relatively easy for the mentally ill to do well in the structure of the psych ward: nurses ensure that they take their meds, deal well with other patients, etc.

In the old days, patients could be committed on the word of two doctors and a family member, and if nobody wanted to get them out, they languished. Poor people went to state mental hospitals, while the well-off had private asylums. These were an improvement over jailing the mad, but there were (of course) abuses of the system.

My mother worked as a psychiatric nurse from 1950 on, and she remembers spending time with patients who were perfectly normal but whose families for various reasons wanted them away. One patient was a wealthy woman whose husband had her committed so he could continue to gamble away her money. Once you were branded insane, that was it. There was no appeal.

IMO, the pendulum has swung too far the other way. I knew Sylvia Seegrist in college. Her mother spent years trying desperately to get her daughter committed and keep her there; Sylvia was a violent paranoid schizophrenic who frequently attacked family members. Eventually she bought a rifle and took it to the mall, where she shot a number of people. Now she's in prison. For details, see here: http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewsho ... 0&id=19443

Sorry, Ray. But it would have been quite easy for Abraham to have Lizzie locked up. She didn't even have to be crazy.

Lynn
There is science, logic, reason; there is thought verified by experience. And then there is California. --Edward Abbey

http://unnaturalhistory.blogspot.com
User avatar
Wordweaver
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:28 am
Real Name:
Location: Silicon Valley
Contact:

Post by Wordweaver »

Shelley @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:36 pm wrote:I suspect the New York Herald colored many opinions about Lizzie with these word, some facts which must have been fed to the reporter by an insider: . . ."Her own mother died in giving birth to her and she has been odd all her life. She grew up to be much of a recluse. "
Yes, but we know that's not accurate. Lizzie's mother died a couple of years after Lizzie was born.

Lynn
There is science, logic, reason; there is thought verified by experience. And then there is California. --Edward Abbey

http://unnaturalhistory.blogspot.com
User avatar
nbcatlover
Posts: 1222
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:10 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: nbcatlover
Location: New Bedford, MA

Post by nbcatlover »

There is so much negative stereotyping of the mentally afflicted in this topic, it is bordering on offensive.

Having worked with institutionalized bipolar patients, it is absolutely incorrect to say they do not know they have a problem. Most of them spend 24 hrs. a day just trying to control the problem.

As far as committing murder in a manic episode...many bipolar patients don't want to stop their manic episodes because it is the only time they are not depressed and are able to experience happiness.

Statistically, the sane commit more violent crimes than the mentally ill.
User avatar
Shelley
Posts: 3949
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:22 pm
Real Name:
Location: CT
Contact:

Post by Shelley »

Her own mother died in giving birth to her and she has been odd all her life. She grew up to be much of a recluse

I believe the "she" they refer to in the last sentence means Lizzie- not her mother. The fact that Sarah was dead was known. But she did not die giving birth to Lizzie. So that's an error.

This thread has taken a darker turn from the good-natured postulating of a theory at the beginning. I think Sally has put forth some excellent possibilities. All one can do is look at facts and evidence , then try to piece together some likely scenarios to explain these bits and pieces. Sally's theory, and our development of it as a possibility has as much validity as many others out there which are frankly pretty farfetched and lack any documentation. The notion that Lizzie may have suffered some sort of mental malady is not a new idea-nor is the consideration of it here as a possibility bashing people who suffer from mental diseases.

The facts that her mother died, possibly after a lengthy period of suffering, growing up during the Civil War and aftermath as a toddler and youngster, being confronted with a stepmother at age 5, moving from the family homestead on Ferry Street at the troubling preteen year of 12 with all the difficulties of puberty and changing schools, - and being greatly under the influence of an older sister and that sister's point of view would no doubt be a lot for anybody to cope with- no matter how healthy one's mental state.

Many of the newspaper quotes already cited here reveal Lizzie to have problems fitting in and excelling at school. Often new children at a school have a hard time being accepted -especially if they are different in any way, have low self-esteem, are unattractive in appearance or personality,or insecure. I believe it was even harder in Victorian times than now- when appearances and social connections carried heavy importance. Thankfully now there are counselors, and other professionals who can diagnose and intercede early on with children who are troubled.

Reading over Sarah Whitehead's statements about life in that house, and many of the short statements given by friends and neighbors, (all viewable under Witness Statements)- it is clear that things had escalated to an intolerable level of animosity, which is often underestimated. Sarah mentions the patience beyond endurance Abby exhibited, and many of the female witnesses paint a frightening scenario of just how far things had gone. Some appear reluctant to reveal what they know, others hint darkly at the atmosphere in the house. It is possible that something had to be done.
The notion of sending Lizzie to a sanatarium (not an asylum) might have been a real possibility. It is quite correct and true that release from some of the state institutions and asylums was difficult-even in the 1960's. Sometimes my family would host patients from the state hospital in our home on weekends because they were virtually abandonned in the institution by their own families- some were not a danger, and perfectly able to function in society. I suspect that even the thought or suspicion that one could be committed could produce some dramatic behaviour. Overhearing one's parents even discussing their fears about one's behaviour and possible solutions could instigate a violent reaction.

So, Sally, it might be hard to find any written proof- even Taunton's asylum had a great fire, although it is still in business today. I think letters and diaries of people who knew her, if and when they are published, might reveal more clues to Lizzie's state of mind and health. It has been a thought-provoking premise!
User avatar
snokkums
Posts: 2545
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:09 am
Gender: Female
Real Name: Robin
Location: fayetteville nc,but from milwaukee
Contact:

Post by snokkums »

I read somewhere too that being insane those days meant you were suffering from syphillis. I don't know how true that is, but back then too, they thought epilespy was a mental disorder. So it would stand to reason they would have though syphillis would make you go insane.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
User avatar
Wordweaver
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:28 am
Real Name:
Location: Silicon Valley
Contact:

Post by Wordweaver »

snokkums @ Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:41 am wrote:I read somewhere too that being insane those days meant you were suffering from syphillis. I don't know how true that is, but back then too, they thought epilespy was a mental disorder. So it would stand to reason they would have though syphillis would make you go insane.
They thought that syphilis could make you go insane because untreated syphilis does, in fact, sometimes produce a tertiary stage with dramatic and dreadful neurological effects. Years or even decades after the initial untreated infection, some syphilis patients exhibit dementia, personality changes, and mental decline. Physical symptoms may include weakness, paralysis, tumors in the liver or bones, skin lesions, and blindness. Also death. Syphilis at that stage can cause a wide variety of symptoms, although it's not usually transmissible.

Mothers with syphilis can transmit the disease to their fetuses with devastating results. A child born with congenital syphilis may have a saddle nose, severely bowed legs, rashes, peg-shaped teeth, blindness, deafness, and various neurological abnormalities. They generally die young.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 000703.htm
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 001344.htm

Yes, in the Victorian era some people with tertiary syphilis were considered insane -- and with excellent reason. It does not therefore follow that anyone who was insane had syphilis.

Lynn Kendall
There is science, logic, reason; there is thought verified by experience. And then there is California. --Edward Abbey

http://unnaturalhistory.blogspot.com
User avatar
nbcatlover
Posts: 1222
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:10 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: nbcatlover
Location: New Bedford, MA

Post by nbcatlover »

Most people in asylums in those days were women whose husbands wanted them out of the way to gamble, drink, and consort with loose women and women suffering from depression and post-partum depression.

In a very long discussion with a noted psychiatrist, I was advised that most schizophrenics and bipolars were managed at home in the family environment. Especially on large farms, they did not feel pressured or confined and had fewer outburst since it was people who loved them who cared for them. Only those who migrated to large cities or lost their families were in the confined.

Syphillics, opium addicts, absinthe abusers, and the like (whose families had tired of their excesses) were also found in asylums. Sexual deviants (think Marquis de Sade) and murders were often found in asylums as well.

But again, I stress that women were most vulnerable to institutionalization because they had few rights at the time.
RayS
Posts: 2508
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 pm
Real Name:
Location: Bordentown NJ

Post by RayS »

Wordweaver @ Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:40 pm wrote:...
In the old days, patients could be committed on the word of two doctors and a family member, and if nobody wanted to get them out, they languished. Poor people went to state mental hospitals, while the well-off had private asylums. These were an improvement over jailing the mad, but there were (of course) abuses of the system.

My mother worked as a psychiatric nurse from 1950 on, and she remembers spending time with patients who were perfectly normal but whose families for various reasons wanted them away. One patient was a wealthy woman whose husband had her committed so he could continue to gamble away her money. Once you were branded insane, that was it. There was no appeal.

IMO, the pendulum has swung too far the other way. I knew Sylvia Seegrist in college. Her mother spent years trying desperately to get her daughter committed and keep her there; Sylvia was a violent paranoid schizophrenic who frequently attacked family members. Eventually she bought a rifle and took it to the mall, where she shot a number of people. Now she's in prison. For details, see here: http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewsho ... 0&id=19443

Sorry, Ray. But it would have been quite easy for Abraham to have Lizzie locked up. She didn't even have to be crazy.

Lynn
My point is that NOBODY then said that Lizzie was crazy. See Knowlton's queries about insanity.
It simply the costs: its cheaper to prescribe medications that total support. I thought that only schizophrenia (or whatever they call it) was the sole mental illness w/ a physical source (unknown).
But I'm not well-read in this field.

I was reading a book about committing people in the 1920s. "Insanity" then was a code word for syphilis, as was "epilepsy". Mental deterioration can cause the symptoms. I once read a book that said this disease was quite common among the rulers and politicians in late 19th century and early 20th century. Did you read the story about the English Prince accused of being Jack the Ripper? True Crime is more fun that TV.

Not too many people know that J. Edgar Hoover's father was committed, the family did not get a Govt pension, and young John had to support his Mom and elder sisters.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
RayS
Posts: 2508
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 pm
Real Name:
Location: Bordentown NJ

Post by RayS »

Wordweaver @ Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:45 pm wrote:
Shelley @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:36 pm wrote:I suspect the New York Herald colored many opinions about Lizzie with these word, some facts which must have been fed to the reporter by an insider: . . ."Her own mother died in giving birth to her and she has been odd all her life. She grew up to be much of a recluse. "
Yes, but we know that's not accurate. Lizzie's mother died a couple of years after Lizzie was born.

Lynn
Exactly! The old advice was to ignore the facts and run the story if the latter was more interesting. Its entertainment, not history.
Then or now, be careful about the press. You can see this in the Ramsey case, or the OJ Simpson trial.
If you ever get to be a juror, they will tell you not to read the press. Most people don't know that the stories printed are to grab your attention.
Truth is the first casualty.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
Post Reply