MENTAL ILLNESS

This the place to have frank, but cordial, discussions of the Lizzie Borden case

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Allen
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Post by Allen »

I purchased a book some time back entitled The People's Common Sense Medical Adviser by R.V. Pierce which was published in 1892.

Having read Victoria Lincoln's book many times and being pretty familiar with her theory of epilepsy, which was also briefly mentioned in this thread, I found this passage pretty interesting. I had often wondered just how much was understood about the disease back then. This answered many of my questions.

Page 626:

"Epilepsy (Fits)

Epilespy, or falling sickness, is a disease which is characterized by attacks of sudden loss of consciousness, together with convulsive movements of the muscles. The paroxyms occur at irregular intervals, the periods between them, in some cases, being only a few minutes or hours, while in others, several months elapse.

There are two forms of the disease, the petit mal and the grand mal. In the former, the attacks are light, and often not attended with complete loss of consciousness, and there is little or no agitation of the muscles.

Symptoms.
In the severe forms of the disease, the subject suddenly loses consciousness and falls; there is a rigidity of the muscles, which lasts but for a moment, and is followed by alternate contraction and relaxation, which causes a twitching of the face and limbs; the eyes are turned up, and there is foaming at the mouth. In grand mal , or severe form of the disease, the respiration is arrested, while in the milder attacks, the breathing is difficult, slow, deep, and snoring. With the commencement of the spasm, the tongue is sometimes caught between the teeth and severely bitten. During the paroxysm, the countenance changes from a livid hue to a dark purple. The convulsion continues from one to three minutes, and is followed by a deep, sighing inspiration; the subject then sinks into a deep sleep, which continues for half an hour or longer. When consciousness is first regained, the subject appears confused, stupid, and usually complains of a headache. He has no recollection of what has occurred during the attack, he pronounces words indistinctly, and, if he attempts to walk, he staggers like a drunk man. Sometimes, several attacks occur so closely together that there is no interval of consciousness between them.

In some cases, there are premonitory symptoms, such as giddiness, drowsiness, headache, and irritability of the temper, which warn the subject of an approaching paroxysm. Occassionally, a wave of cold commencing at the feet and proceeding to the head, is experienced. This is called aura. When it reaches the brain, the subject becomes unconscious, falls, and convulsion commences. If the disease is allowed to proceed unchecked, it almost invariably leads to a great impairment of mind, insanity, and paralysis.

Causes. The predisposing causes are a hereditary tendency to the disease, and everything which impairs the consitution and produces nervous prostration and irritability. Syphilis, phimosis, sexual abuses, uterine disease, and the use of alcoholic liquors are prominent predisposing causes. We think that we can safely say that more than half of all cases treated by us have been brought on by masturbation.

The exciting causes include everything which disturbs the equilibrium of the nervous system. Indigestible articles of food, intestinal worms, loss of sleep, great exhaustion, grief, anger, constipation of the bowels, piles, and uterine irritation may be enumerated among such causes. Convulsions of an epileptic character may also be induced by a poisoned condition of the blood, from malaria, and disease of the kidneys or liver.

Treatment. When the time of an expected paroxysm approaches, great care should be exercised that the patient is not suddenly attacked while carrying a lighted lamp, or that he does not fall in some dangerous place, strike upon a heated stove, or in some way inflict great injury. If there is an aura a few minutes before the attack, the subject should carry a vial of the nitrite of amyl in the pocket, and, when the premonitory symptom is felt, two or three drops should be poured on a handkerchief and held about an inch from the nose and inhaled, until flushing is produced, or a burning sensation is felt on the face.

During the paroxysm, the subject should be laid on the back, with the head slightly elevated, and the clothing about the neck and waist, if tight, should be loosened. If there is sufficient warning, a folded napkin, or a soft pine stick covered with a handkerchief or cloth, should be placed between the double teeth, to prevent the tongue from being bitten. During the fit, the head should be bathed in cold water.

A person who suffers from this disease should avoid everything which tends to excite the nervous system, or increase to any great extent the action of the heart. He should go to bed at regular hours, and take at least eight hours of sleep. The sleeping-room should be large and well ventilated, and he should lie with the head elevated. He should avoid all indigestible articles, and his diet should consist principally of bread, vegetables, milk, and fruits. He should take meat not more than once a day, and then in small quantities. The use of alcoholic liquors and coffee should be avoided, and tea only taken in small quantities. The bowels should be regulated with Pleasant Purgative Pellets and injections. A thorough bath should be taken not less than once a week. If the attack occur at night, the body should be sponged before going to bed with tepid water, to which should be added sufficient tincture or infusion of capsicum, or red pepper, to render it stimulating to the skin.

The causes, if they can be determined, should be removed, and those remedies administered which relieve nervous irritation and cerebral congestion. If due to worms, anthelmintics should be given;if to phimosis, the subject should be circumcised, if to pressure on the brain, from fracture of the skull, trephining should be practiced, and the depressed bone raised. There are no specifics for this disease; each individual case must be treated according to the condition presented. The nostrums advertised extensively over the country as specifics for this disease, while they may, in some instances, prevent the attacks for a short time, irritate the stomach, impair digestion, lower vitality, and permanently injure the system, often rendering the disease incurable. They deceive the sufferer, leading him to think that his disease is being cured, until it progresses so far that he is beyond the reach of any treatment. As a rule, the longer the disease progresses, the more difficult is is to cure."
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Post by RayS »

I remember the title as "Microbes and Morals", still a good book to read.
"Rats, Lice, and History" is another title I sort of remember.
Both from about 20-30 years ago. My reading tastes evolve.

Both tell of the effects of wide-spread diseases on society.
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Post by RayS »

I forgot to mention the obvious.
The long consumption of alcohol leads to changes in the body. Delirium tremens (?) is one effect. "Seeing pink elephants" etc.
We know that this social habit is so widespread it seldom attracts comments. But it does have effects on people (mostly men, the leaders of society). Note whether this is listed about mental problems.
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Post by Kat »

Thanks for all the transcription, Missy!!
~ ~ ~ ~ !

I think that if Lizzie had any kind of problem that would tend to debillitate her at times, then she would not have been allowed to go to Europe for 19 weeks on a ship without a family member close by.

Of course, a trip such as that would take some endurance, and be stessful, so it's not impossible that it triggered something dormant in her- but at the age of 30 I'd think she would already have presented with any symptoms previous to that age.
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Post by RayS »

Kat @ Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:13 pm wrote:...
I think that if Lizzie had any kind of problem that would tend to debillitate her at times, then she would not have been allowed to go to Europe for 19 weeks on a ship without a family member close by.

Of course, a trip such as that would take some endurance, and be stessful, so it's not impossible that it triggered something dormant in her- but at the age of 30 I'd think she would already have presented with any symptoms previous to that age.
I don't disagree with that. But it could be possible that a disease could develop later in life. I don't agree with Vicky Lincoln because she had no proof (only one doctor that agreed with this diagnosis). If it was a disease, it should have been manifest before or after or both.

Raymond Chandler invented this disease as an excuse for mental illness in his first novel "The Big Sleep", made into a bowdlerized film io 1945. The book is better than the film, since you could say more in a book than a censored film. IMO
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Post by RayS »

Allen @ Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:24 pm wrote:I purchased a book some time back entitled The People's Common Sense Medical Adviser by R.V. Pierce which was published in 1892.

Having read Victoria Lincoln's book many times and being pretty familiar with her theory of epilepsy, which was also briefly mentioned in this thread, I found this passage pretty interesting. I had often wondered just how much was understood about the disease back then. This answered many of my questions.

Page 626: "Epilepsy (Fits)
...
This "falling sickness" would make her incapable of attacking anyone!
I'm surprised they didn't mention the effects of the full moon. :lol:
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Post by Allen »

Kat @ Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:13 pm wrote:Thanks for all the transcription, Missy!!
~ ~ ~ ~ !

I think that if Lizzie had any kind of problem that would tend to debillitate her at times, then she would not have been allowed to go to Europe for 19 weeks on a ship without a family member close by.

Of course, a trip such as that would take some endurance, and be stessful, so it's not impossible that it triggered something dormant in her- but at the age of 30 I'd think she would already have presented with any symptoms previous to that age.
If this was the case then any form of mental illness which could possibly have been known to exist in her by the family could be ruled out, as could any addictions.

I'm not saying that I think Lizzie suffered from epilepsy, and I'm not saying it's not possible either. Anything is within the realm of possibility. Especially since there is so much we may never know. Of course we can speculate, and there are the theories we believe in more than others, but we can never really know anything for sure. But even if the Borden's may have suspected that Lizzie might have suffered from some form of illness, whether it was epilepsy or something else, when she actually did not it could lead to their treating her in a certain manner. I was trying to get at what they actually knew about the disease then, not what we know now. What they actually knew and believed then would've influenced their thoughts and actions. There are a few things in the passage which I found interesting.

When consciousness is first regained, the subject appears confused, stupid, and usually complains of a headache. He has no recollection of what has occurred during the attack, he pronounces words indistinctly, and, if he attempts to walk, he staggers like a drunk man.

I remember some reading some reports of Lizzie acting strangely which depict her as walking by and ignoring all those in the room. I'm not quite sure where I read this but this is what I remembered of the account. That she would act as if she didn't see anyone and just go about her business. There are reports from people that knew her that Lizzie exhibited odd behaviors, or behaved strangely, yet I've never seen any satisfactory proof of what those behaviors actually were.

In some cases, there are premonitory symptoms, such as giddiness, drowsiness, headache, and irritability of the temper, which warn the subject of an approaching paroxysm.

There is a record of Sarah Borden suffering from head aches and uncontrollable fits of rage. There are the newspaper accounts that say Lizzie was outspoken and at times had a sharp tongue when not left alone.

If the disease is allowed to proceed unchecked, it almost invariably leads to a great impairment of mind, insanity, and paralysis.

There is the belief it could possibly lead to insanity.

The predisposing causes are a hereditary tendency to the disease, and everything which impairs the consitution and produces nervous prostration and irritability. Syphilis, phimosis, sexual abuses, uterine disease, and the use of alcoholic liquors are prominent predisposing causes.

Predisposing causes listed it as being hereditary, and that uterine disease could contribute to it. Sarah Morse Borden, Lizzie's birth mother, died of uterine congestion. Could Lizzie have shown signs there may have problems of this sort?


Indigestible articles of food, intestinal worms, loss of sleep, great exhaustion, grief, anger, constipation of the bowels, piles, and uterine irritation may be enumerated among such causes.


This could explain why everyone in the family gave in to Lizzie's whims at times, even Andrew. He let her choose the paint color for the house, etc. Could be considered and effort towards not causing her 'grief or anger'. This might even explain the trip to Europe if you look at it in this light. It might have been considered a leisure trip.


If there is an aura a few minutes before the attack, the subject should carry a vial of the nitrite of amyl in the pocket, and, when the premonitory symptom is felt, two or three drops should be poured on a handkerchief and held about an inch from the nose and inhaled, until flushing is produced, or a burning sensation is felt on the face.

There was the handkerchief found near Abby's body. There were the handkerchiefs Lizzie was 'ironing' that were found by Alice Russell which were still damp.

During the paroxysm, the subject should be laid on the back, with the head slightly elevated, and the clothing about the neck and waist, if tight, should be loosened.

Alice Russell mentioned in testimony that the blouse of Lizzie's dress looked like it had been loosened somehow in the front. As if she might have reached up to get something.

A person who suffers from this disease should avoid everything which tends to excite the nervous system, or increase to any great extent the action of the heart

What exactly did Lizzie do around the house besides take care of her own quarters?

The sleeping-room should be large and well ventilated, and he should lie with the head elevated.

Emma offered up her larger room to Lizzie and took the smaller one. A pattern that followed the pair at Maplecroft.


Again I'm not saying I definitely subscribe to this theory. It's just something I've been kicking around to see where it goes. Sort of like the mental illness/depression theory. Some pieces fit, some do not. But it's fun to theorize and see where it takes you.
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Post by Harry »

Thanks Missy for all that transcribing. It's nice to know what they thought of such problems in 1892.
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Post by Kat »

I think Lizzie could have developed an addiction to a drug or alcohol since her return from Europe more likely than she would be allowed to travel that long without a family member to keep watch over her due to a mental or physical illness, or that same showed up so late in life.

Andrew did kill the pigeons which I don't actually believe were her *pets* but she may have been stressed by that anyway, seeing as she had a love of *dumb animals.*
That would be counter to an ongoing appeasement of Lizzie within the family.
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Post by Allen »

What do we know about the person who chaperoned Lizzie on this trip?
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Post by Harry »

Allen @ Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:44 am wrote:What do we know about the person who chaperoned Lizzie on this trip?
Newspapers at the time say that the chaperone was a "Miss Cox" of Taunton. The following was in the Boston Evening Recorder dated June 5, 1893 (Rebello, p11):

"... With a party of friends, Miss Borden made a tour of Europe in 1890. She remained on the continent for three months, under the chaperonage of Miss Cox of Taunton [Massachusetts]..."

This may be the only reference to her. Rebello has this on page 17:

"Lizzie sailed from Boston to Liverpool, England, aboard the S. S. Scythia on June 21, 1890. Lizzie was accompanied by the Misses Anna Howland Borden and her sister, Carrie Lindley Borden, Elizabeth Brayton, Sarah Brayton, and Ellen M. Shove. Miss Anna H. and Miss Carrie Borden were not related to Lizzie Borden. (Trial: 1170) According to Emma's testimony, Lizzie was away for nineteen weeks. (Inquest: 107) Lizzie returned to Boston aboard the S. S. Scythia on November 1, 1890."

No mention of Miss Cox. I also have a listing of the passenger list that was printed in the Boston Globe on June 21, 1890, page 8. The heading of this list reads:

"The following saloon passengers will sail on the Cunard line steamer Scythia for Liverpool today:"

It goes on to list Lizzie, Carrie and Anna Borden as well as Miss Shove. Absent from the listing are the Braytons and Miss Cox.

I note that the listing is for "saloon passengers". Could the Braytons and Miss Cox have had other accomodations and therefore were not listed? These ships did have different levels of accomodations. This is also from Rebello, page 19:

"Cunard Line - Steamers leave every Saturday for Liverpool via Queenstown ...Cabin passage, $60, $80, $100 ..."
"$16.50 - Steerage Tickets from Liverpool ..."

Seems odd though that the chaperone would separate herself from some of her charges. Of course the article doesn't actually say Miss Cox sailed with them only that they were under her chaperonage and she may have already been in Europe and met them there.
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Post by Allen »

Thanks a bunch Harry. :smile: I wonder how did this 'Miss Cox' come to be the chaperone for Lizzie? I don't know that there is any record of her being aquainted with Lizzie past being with her on this trip in the capacity stated above. I'd be interested to know what her profession may have been.
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Post by Susan »

I did a search to see if I could find any Cox family in the Massachusetts census for Taunton. I finally came across a Cox family in the 1880s, father William, mother Huldah M., and then three daughters;

Sarah H. Cox, b.1848 school teacher

Ella F. Cox, b. 1852 school teacher

Lucy E. Cox, b. 1859 married

So, could Sarah or Ella be the mysterious Miss Cox? Lizzie did have quite a few school teacher friends. :?:

Info from this site:

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/ ... census.asp
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Post by RayS »

Allen @ Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:44 am wrote:What do we know about the person who chaperoned Lizzie on this trip?
I read that Anna Borden, a cousin, accompanied Lizzie on her trip home. Lizzie said she was sorry about returning home. Isn't that likely on a return from a vacation? Sorry it ended?

I wonder if "Miss Cox" was one of those instant eyewitnesses who took advantage of a situation to get her name in print.
My apology to Miss Cox if I am wrong (the experts can rebuke me).
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Post by Allen »

Susan @ Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:15 am wrote:I did a search to see if I could find any Cox family in the Massachusetts census for Taunton. I finally came across a Cox family in the 1880s, father William, mother Huldah M., and then three daughters;

Sarah H. Cox, b.1848 school teacher

Ella F. Cox, b. 1852 school teacher

Lucy E. Cox, b. 1859 married

So, could Sarah or Ella be the mysterious Miss Cox? Lizzie did have quite a few school teacher friends. :?:

Info from this site:

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/ ... census.asp
Thank you Susan for your research and the link. :smile: It's an interesting idea that maybe Sarah or Ella could have been the Miss Cox who chaperoned Lizzie in Europe. I wonder if there is any more digging we might be able to do in order to uncover more information about them? School teachers were not permitted to be married so they would both have been single, and slightly older than Lizzie, which is usually what was required of a chaperone. Interesting findings. Thanks.
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Post by Susan »

You're welcome, Melissa. I was curious if there was even such a person as the Miss Cox mentioned in the news article and came to find two that could fill the bill. I seem to recall reading or seeing on some program on TV that male teachers were allowed to be married during that era, but, not female. I guess the reason being all that was expected from a woman who was married; housekeeper, childbearer, etc.
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Post by Shelley »

I wonder if Miss Ellen Shove is of the Shove family buried right next to the Borden lot? Ellen may have married and died with a different surname. The Shove lot is among the most beautiful in the cemetery. I will check the stones Saturday to see if Ellen is there. Here is the Shove lot and one of the Shove ladies, Margaret, from my Oak Grove CD.
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Post by Shelley »

Each stone is different, and exquisitely carved.
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Post by Ms. Jo »

That is a beautiful headstone!...They sure don't make them like they used to.
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Post by Kat »

Shelley @ Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:38 pm wrote:I wonder if Miss Ellen Shove is of the Shove family buried right next to the Borden lot? Ellen may have married and died with a different surname. The Shove lot is among the most beautiful in the cemetery. I will check the stones Saturday to see if Ellen is there. Here is the Shove lot and one of the Shove ladies, Margaret, from my Oak Grove CD.
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This one is incredibly phallic -especially with that name on it!
I think I will save this picture and use it when I want to swear at someone! :smile:
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Post by Shelley »

Oh MY! I may never look at cemeteries quite the same way again! :oops:

Yes each stone in that plot is a little masterpiece-and all botanical wonders in stone. I found examples of every single symbol for my Victorian Funeral Statuary program in Oak Grove in 2 hours! Almost as good as Highgate in London. Here is another Shove lady- the drooping roses are magnificent-even worn down by acid rain over the decades.
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Post by Shelley »

Obelisks are fascinating things in themselves. I believe they are often found on graves of Masonic brothers, being Egyptian in origin. Used in Egypt usually in pairs to mark the entrance to great buildings, the square base is wider than the tapered shaft, culminating in a pyramid, another Masonic symbol (also found on a dollar bill). Great Geometery!

There would have been great excitement in Lizzie's day about the Washington Monument which was dedicated in 1885 after decades of building the thing. It is my favorite national monument, and the tallest structure until the Eiffel Tower was constructed a few years later. (another suggestive structure, Kat!!). I love that the very top face of the pyramid points to heaven and says "Laus Deo"- Praise to God. How I wish I had the knees to climb it again as I did in 1962! Actually I believe one must now take the elevator. Here is an old sketch of what it might have looked like with George Washington featured inside a chariot. I like the final design better.

I would bet Emma and Lizzie had a tour of Washington , D.C.
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Post by Kat »

Thanks! That is all very interesting!
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Post by RayS »

Again, an epileptic attack leaves one helpless. This could not in itself create a raging madness. But I'm not a doctor.
People w/ epilepsy can't drive a car unless they're on medications. IMO
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Post by snokkums »

Shelley @ Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:38 pm wrote:After Emma left and had been gone 2 weeks in Fairhaven she tried to buy poison Wednesday August 3rd at about 10:45 a.m..

I always thought it interesting that her bosom companion in later years was Helen Leighton - a nurse who may have understood and sympathized with Lizzie's peculiarities. I also thought there must be a reason men stayed away in droves. Probably they realized she was peculiar after one meeting and could have been afraid it may have been hereditary-thus tainting Emma too. I believe Nance and Lizzie were friends for only a year, a big age difference between them as well. I have always felt Nance used Lizzie to pay some debts and amuse her friends with her infamous buddy. Perhaps Fall River did not want her hanged and found guilty because they did know she was "not quite right" in the head.
I think you are right about that. I think everyone thought she was not quite right and didn't want her to rot in prison. That would also explain why her father always paid for the stuff she shoplifted and why he kept his bedroom door locked.
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Post by Kat »

Well, then, do you think Lizzie would have made a good mother, after all?
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Post by RayS »

snokkums @ Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:04 pm wrote:
Shelley @ Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:38 pm wrote:After Emma left and had been gone 2 weeks in Fairhaven she tried to buy poison Wednesday August 3rd at about 10:45 a.m..

I always thought it interesting that her bosom companion in later years was Helen Leighton - a nurse who may have understood and sympathized with Lizzie's peculiarities. I also thought there must be a reason men stayed away in droves. Probably they realized she was peculiar after one meeting and could have been afraid it may have been hereditary-thus tainting Emma too. I believe Nance and Lizzie were friends for only a year, a big age difference between them as well. I have always felt Nance used Lizzie to pay some debts and amuse her friends with her infamous buddy. Perhaps Fall River did not want her hanged and found guilty because they did know she was "not quite right" in the head.
I think you are right about that. I think everyone thought she was not quite right and didn't want her to rot in prison. That would also explain why her father always paid for the stuff she shoplifted and why he kept his bedroom door locked.
Lizzie always denied going to that store and trying to buy poison. Ever!
Arthur S Phillips history was said to have been completed by another, so maybe someone changed things.

BTW people who are "not quite right" were often sent to asylums, then or now. There is no documentary proof that Andy paid for the stuff. THAT would be out of character for him.
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Post by Shelley »

"Lizzie always denied going to that store and trying to buy poison. Ever!"

Well, of course she did- who on earth in their right mind would ever admit it?


"There is no documentary proof that Andy paid for the stuff. THAT would be out of character for him"

Naturally there is no proof- that is the whole idea.And there is no proof that he did not either. Keep it quiet- no police. No embarrassing scandal for his daughter and family. Andrew may have actually owned one of those shops from where she lifted things- and who would want to get on the wrong side of Andrew.

I'd love to see the private and secret sources and documents for Arnold Brown's book and the mysterious illegitimate son theory- but we never will. :wink:
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Post by RayS »

I'd love to see the private and secret sources and documents for Arnold Brown's book and the mysterious illegitimate son theory- but we never will.
And so would I. They should be in the Lewis Peterson family.
But the revelations of a birth certificate is not proof of guilt. Agree?

Brown's story came from the memoirs of Henry Hawthorne, who was a resident of the area. Aside from EH Porter, how many other authors?

Borwn's theory works!
1) the lack of blood evidence against Lizzie or Bridget points to an unknown intruder (identity kept secret by Lizzie).
2) Lizzie's closed mouth suggests a relative (we know she did not have a boyfriend or girlfriend then) whose identity was kept secret. It would have to be someone who the Local Establishment or Ruling Class agreed to "keep it all hid". There are few that meet these 2 simple rules.
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Post by Oscar »

I've always discounted the prusic acid story. It could have been any woman in Fall River who may have had a passing reseblence to Lizzie and not known what it was exactly they were asking for, despite Mr. Bence's and his staff's claims. I suspect Mr. Bence was seeking notoriety, but who knows for sure. I don't believe Lizzie tried to buy anything.
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Post by Shelley »

Re Bence & Poison- Recently we had John Mark Karr claiming to "have been with Jon Benet when she died". Most of us took one look at this guy and knew he wanted his fifteen minutes of fame- and we were right. Of course we are never going to know, but we can speculate on that poison business. Not only Eli Bence, but two other assistants all identified Lizzie by sight and voice. They got nothing out of it- maybe some attention, possibly negative attention for themselves and Smith's. I wonder how the proprietor of Smith's felt about being dragged into the messy business?

I also think it has a ring of truth that these men would remember someone, a woman, coming in and asking for Prussic Acid- not an everyday occurence. An extraordinary event, in fact. And then there is that very interesting account that poison was wanted at another pharmacy not long before August 3rd. I recall there was another lady ressembling Lizzie in town, and married to a police officer to boot. Still, I think it very reasonable and believable that those 3 men were convinced they had identified the right person given the remarkable request that morning. I wonder if anyone here has followed up on the life and career of Eli Bence? Was he a showboat greedy for attention?

I like Arnold Brown- he was a nice man- and he knew Fall River for sure. He weaves a masterful story, using much documented testimony, factual events, and real history. Yes, his story can be made to work with his interpretations of real testimony. It is as good a theory as any other I have read which cite people other than Lizzie as murderer- better than Emma did it- better than Bridget did it. I can make up a good story, if you don't require any proof from me, which could explain all the facts as we know them too. The problem I have with Brown is that we must take so much on faith- not that I doubt his belief in what he read he thought was genuine- that material which was written by Henry Hawthorne. I also get a little skeptical when I read the entertaining but totally fabricated Ellan Eagan portions when Brown puts himself in Ellan's head and imagines what she was thinking. Always dangerous to presume what anyone is thinking- especially someone you have never met. And so much based on a smell, remembered by how reliable a witness? Angela Carter, Victoria Lincoln and others write with much imagination and insight, but it is their take on it. We all can put our personal spin on things, imagine conversations and events in light of what we perceive to have happened-but that does not mean that is what actually occured.

I like to see some proof. I counted 4 different Andrew Bordens in Oak Grove the other day. Borden is as common as Smith and Jones in this area. How do we know Andrew and Sarah Morse Borden had marital problems? Why did Mr. Hawthorne not name the midwife who delivered this baby boy- he names everyone else. Brown also says Henry wrote this woman "claimed" to be the midwife. She could have been a liar to get attention. Did Brown check the census and town street directories for Phebe Borden? She could not have fallen off the face of the earth unless she died in that mysterious interim of 4 years when we see Charles Borden remarried to Peace. I also believe it is state law that a birth certificate must be issued to every live birth, and any and all persons living beneath the head of household's roof must be recorded at census.

That farm transaction in East Taunton is also tenuous. Hathaway is another common name found in Taunton and Oak Grove cemeteries. The fact that farm was owned by some Hathaways, who later deeded it to Lewis Gammons, who happened to later father the fiancee of a William Borden is nothing conclusive. Must have been hard for William S. Borden to obtain a marriage license with no birth certificate. If Brown had found proof that those Taunton Hathaways were related to Phebe Hathaway Borden- I would give it a second look. He does not. We not only have to believe Hawthorne, but other unsubstantiated people and their stories.

Statements like page 319 " On the day he was murdered, Andrew had an appointment to speak with his son" fairly beg for an out cry of "How does he possibly know this?" I know all of this is discussed on another thread, and Brown is your champion, Ray, but as entertaining a read as it is, I just can't buy all the might haves, could haves, missing proofs of The Legend , the Truth, the Final Chapter-and now Brown and Hawthorne are dead- who on earth can press them for details? Silent as the grave- all of them.[/b]
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Post by Kat »

Bence and two others were called to testify at the inquest, but not even the *2 others* knew Lizzie "by sight and voice"...at least not collectively.

Bence knew her by sight, but 2 could not agree on her voice in the shop, and the third only recognized her picture from the newspaper. The ID was in different combinations of the 2 only- Bence and Kilroy.
(For the disagreement of her voice, check testimony futher- it was to loud or soft etc.).

Bence
Inquest
Q. Did you then know who it was?
A. I knew her as a Miss Borden; I have known her for sometime as a Miss Borden, but not as Andrew J. Borden's daughter until that morning. One of the gentlemen who was sitting there, when she turned around and went out, he says "that is Andrew J. Borden's daughter". I looked at her a second time then more closely than when I was talking to her. I should say it was Miss Borden.
Q. What time of day was this?
A. I should say between ten and half past eleven, somewhere
....
Q. How did you judge?
A. I judged both from seeing her before on the street, and also by a peculiar expression around the eyes, which I noticed at the time, and noticed then.
Q. Did you hear her talk?
A. I did.
Q. Did you identify the voice?
A. I did.
....
Kilroy
Q. Do you know Miss Lizzie A. Borden?
A. I have seen her. I know her by sight.
Q. Have you seen her since the tragedy?
A. No Sir.
Q. How long had you known her by sight?
A. Perhaps a year.
Q. Had you ever seen her in the store?
A. No, I saw her on the street.
Q. So you could identify her?
A. Yes Sir.
....
Hart
Q. Did you know who it was?
A. I did not at the time, no air.
Q. Have you since seen her?
A. I have not, no sir.
Q. So you dont know who it is, excepting by hear say?
A. I dont know, except from a picture I have seen.
Q. Seen in the paper?
A. In the Fall River Globe, yes sir.
Q. That is all the way you know is by the picture. Does she resemble the picture of Miss Borden you have seen in the paper?
A. She does.
Q. That is all you know about it?
A. Yes Sir.
~ ~ ~ ~

Here is what Knowlton had to say about the poison-buying foray supposedly by Lizzie Wednesday. (Of course this is not testimony, it's an opening statement of what he hopes to prove if the evidence is allowed):

Trial
Upon the noon of Wednesday, which you will keep in mind was the very day before these homicides, the prisoner went to a drug-store in Fall River, the situation of which will be pointed out to you, and there asked the clerk for ten cents worth of prussic acid for the purpose of cleaning a seal-skin cape. She was told that that was a poison which was not sold except on the prescription of a physician, and after some little talk went away. I think, gentlemen, you will be satisfied that there can be no question that the person who made this application for this deadly poison was the prisoner. There were three persons in the drug store, two of whom knew her by name and sight,---one of these too knew her as the daughter of Andrew J. Borden and the third recognized her at once as he saw her.


Knowlton does seem confident that he has information about another attempt by Lizzie to procure prussic acid but of course, as we know, none of the *poison* testimony was allowed before the jury:

Trial
1242
MR. ROBINSON. I understand that the offer does not include facts to show that there was any sale.

MR. MOODY. No, sir.

MR. ROBINSON. And we perhaps may anticipate, but I believe it may be fair to ask whether there is any evidence of any sale to this defendant?

MR. KNOWLTON. No, sir.

MR. ROBINSON. In any other place?

MR. KNOWLTON. No, sir. It would be fair to say we have evidence to show some attempt to purchase prussic acid in another place, with the same negative results.

MR. ROBINSON. You propose to bring evidence upon attempts, but no success?.

MR. KNOWLTON. Yes, sir.
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Post by Oscar »

Interesting posts Shelley & Kat. I don't know what to think of the whole poison/Bence affair. It is not news to anyone here, but there is so much attached to this case that is beyond explaination.

Is Arnold Brown still alive? His was the first book I read, and my introduction to all things Lizzie.
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Post by Kat »

Sorry, Oscar, we seemed to have passed each other posting.
:smile:
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Post by doug65oh »

Mr. Brown is deceased, Oscar - some years ago I think, though I don't recall just when at present. Mid-1990s sounds right though.
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Post by doug65oh »

Interesting… if fame or notoriety was Bence’s motivation, he didn’t get much – at least where the Evening Standard was concerned. His name appeared less than 24 times in that newspaper during the August-June period between the murders and the acquittal.

One of those actually doesn't even count because the reference is to a "Levi Bence."

Regarding Bence and the possibility of mistaken identity, I came across one of the funniest paragraphs I’ve ever read in connection with the Borden murders – from the Evening Standard of August 8, 1892:

“An attempt was made on Saturday night to float the theory that Eli Bence, the drug clerk, had mistaken Miss Lizzie Borden for the woman who purchases oleomargarine and face lotion for State Inspector McCaffrey. This is absurd. Mr. Bence may be mistaken, of course, but State Inspector McCaffrey's partner looks about as much like
Miss Borden as she does like John L. Sullivan.”
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Post by Shelley »

Thanks Kat, for refreshing the detail on the testimony of Bence and assistants- it has been nearly 16 years since I read that material. I think Brown might have passed away maybe 7 or so years ago- I am having trouble pulling up his obituary.

Loved seeing his high school photo on Mondolizzie!
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Post by Shelley »

"a peculiar expression around the eyes,"- many, many people remark on this quality which also comes across in photographs.
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Post by RayS »

And so much based on a smell, remembered by how reliable a witness?
The sense of smell is used by four-legged animals for hunting, recognitions, etc. You can look it up. I read somewhere that smells can recall memories for humans.
What is your experiences?
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Post by Kat »

Shelley @ Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:41 am wrote:Thanks Kat, for refreshing the detail on the testimony of Bence and assistants- it has been nearly 16 years since I read that material. I think Brown might have passed away maybe 7 or so years ago- I am having trouble pulling up his obituary.

Loved seeing his high school photo on Mondolizzie!
You're welcome.
The LBQ had an obit of sorts:
"The Broken Branch." Lizzie Borden Quarterly VII.1 (January 2000): 23.
Page devoted to the passing of Arnold R. Brown, the author of the controversial book Lizzie Borden: The Legend, the Truth, the Final Chapter, on 1 May 1999. Accompanying the notice of his death is a reprint of the entire poem "My Ain Countrie."

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... BQAuth.htm

At least there is his death date.
I have had a heck of a time trying to find an Obit online- even in Florida- looking in archived online newspapers from down south.
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Post by RayS »

Shelley @ Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:59 pm wrote:...
Statements like page 319 " On the day he was murdered, Andrew had an appointment to speak with his son" fairly beg for an out cry of "How does he possibly know this?" I know all of this is discussed on another thread, and Brown is your champion, Ray, but as entertaining a read as it is, I just can't buy all the might haves, could haves, missing proofs of The Legend , the Truth, the Final Chapter-and now Brown and Hawthorne are dead- who on earth can press them for details? Silent as the grave- all of them.[/b]
It is a logical deduction from the known and surmised facts.
Andy did do business in his home with people (nowadays that would be a tax write-off, use of home in business). Therefore if he had an appointment with "his son" that would be the private place to hold it. Assuming there was a resemblance between father & son that would evoke gossip.
Please refer to my two topics on Brown's Theory. #1 the murders were by an intruder (the reasonable conclusion, as in other True Crimes). #2 it was someone shielded by Lizzie - to make sense of her statements.
You do not have to accept this if you do not want to make sense of the crime.
Brown says the meeting was over a will (inheritance). Brown spent two years in his research, probably more than any other writer.
I believe that a meeting over a loan that was due is a more likely reason.

A few months ago there was a case in the news. A husband was out mowing the lawn, came inside, and found his wife stabbed to death. Nobody was seen! The police investigated. They quickly found a suspect, the cousin of the wife. She borrowed money and could not repay it. Doesn't that happen so often it is not even news after the first day?
PS
"People can wear gloves to avoid leaving fingerprints, but they can't hide their motive."
You know that if a person owes money to a bookie or drug dealer and can't repay it, one of them will soon be dead.
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Post by Kat »

I'm not saying epilepsy is a *mental illness* (this Topic title) but I didn't know where else to put this info.
Over the weekend there was a show on The Night Stalker. I thought it might be the one they've shown quite a lot- on American Justice- but I had never seen this one. Don't know if it was new?

Anyway, it showed crime scene photos, it showed evidence, it showed stuff stolen and then recovered, and they showed Ramirez speaking. I had not ever seen any of this or heard any of his statements before. So this was big to me.

They delved into his upbringing and mentioned that as a child he had epilepsy! I never knew that.

[Edit here: My next post was accidentally put here- it wasn't supposed to be an edit. I've moved my new comment to where it belongs...]
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Post by Oscar »

I still can't believe that Lizzie would have been naive enough to go around to local pharmacies, trying to buy poision with intent to kill, in a small city like Fall River, and then plan and carry out a brilliant double homocide, without leaving any evidence or blood on her. It just doesn't add up for me.

I guess I tend to be on the pro-Lizzie side of things anyway. I'm not sure why. But I don't believe that she was just some hapless young women either... :smile:
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Post by Shelley »

That's okay- I tend to be on the anti-Lizzie side so we need some balance around here! :grin:

I suspect, although Lizzie was no dummy about some things, she may not have known that certain poisons would require so much to get hold of. In an age where all manner of weed killer, rat poison and such was to be had over the counter, asking for some to get clean moths out of fur capes might not seem unreasonable to her. I believe clothing blueing contains some amount of prussic acid. Oxalic acid was and still is easy to get. So many household medicines and poisons are around now and then when you know what to look for and a little chemistry. :evil: Cyanide was the almond-tasting stuff, like bitter almonds used to kill wasps.. Green wallpaper contained arsenic too. I also believe she was naive about determining time of death, and police work and forensics- even as basic as methods were.

My grandmother was clueless as to how to make out a check- Grandfather did all the banking. Lizzie would have had no exposure in homocide- but sometimes an amateur gets lucky! :smile:
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Post by RayS »

The British handed out L-pills to their secret agents in case of capture. It kills quickly. Encased inside a false tooth, it could be retrieved even if wearing handcuffs.
The ONE BIG PROBLEM as a murder weapon is that it kills quickly. No chance to set up an alibi, as with arsenic, the usual weapon of choice (in fiction as in true crime). Poisoners usually are only caught after killing more than twice. Insurance money is a Big Clue.
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Post by Kat »

Well, here's a Night Stalking serial killer who had epilepsy.
I didn't know there really were killers out there with such a disorder.
But do people grow out of it? And is a male more prone than a female?
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Post by snokkums »

But I think back in Lizzie's day epilepsy was considered a mental illness, and maybe the family was talking of putting her in a mental hospital.

And I too have always had problems with the acid story too. Seems like that everybody was trying to get the 15 minutes of fame and the store clerk was just coming up with something.
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Post by Oscar »

And where is the proof that Lizzie ever had epilepsy in the first place?
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Post by RayS »

Oscar @ Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:54 am wrote:And where is the proof that Lizzie ever had epilepsy in the first place?
There is none! Else it would have been published years ago.
If Victoria Lincoln invented this as a cause that does not make it true.
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Post by snokkums »

I wasn't emplying Lizzie ever had epelispy. It has been brought up in some news stories about the case, as to the reason as to why she couldn't get her alibi straight. But it's all speculation, cause no proof has ever been found.
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