MENTAL ILLNESS

This the place to have frank, but cordial, discussions of the Lizzie Borden case

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NancyDrew
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by NancyDrew »

There has been much discussion of epilepsy here. No one has mentioned temporal lobe epilepsy. I suffer from it. It has been speculated, (from looking at various imaging studies of my brain) that it is the result of early childhood head trauma (abuse.)

As early as 7, I can remember having auditory distortions during a "spell" (now I know I was having a seizure.) I have never convulsed OR lost consciousness. During a seizure, I feel 'removed' from reality (spaced out) and will often engage in repetitive behaviors. One time, during an organic chemistry exam in college, I had a seizure...I came out of it just as the test was ending and discovered I had drawn big circles, overlapping each other, on the answer sheet.

I have not had a seizure in a long time, because i learned my triggers and I avoid them. However, right after a seizuere ("post-ichtal") and in between them ("inter-ichtal") it has been written that some folks with TLE have rage attacks. IN fact there is a book about this disordered called "Rage." The book speculates that many brutal killers in history suffered from TLE (great, for me, huh?)

I've never experienced rage, and although I'm quite outspoken, people describe me as incredibly compassionate and forgiving. I simply never stay angry with anyone, much to the chagrin of my husband (a hot tempered Italian.)

Could Lizzie have had TLE?
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by PattiG157 »

I do believe there is a possibility that Lizzie suffered from some sort of mental or physical illness, which would've been basically ignored in the 1800s, since there was nothing that could be done about it. It was recorded that Lizzie often suffered from bouts of depression, for which she took some sort of herbal remedy. She could well have been bipolar or at least suffered with depression. We'll never know for sure, of course, but I do believe something was amiss.

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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Catbooks »

i know very little (read: nothing!) about temporal lobe epilepsy, so have no opinion on if lizzie might or might not have had it. i'd have to read up on it.

now that you mention it, the title rage does ring a bell. i'm certain i didn't read it, but it may have come out back when i was working in an indie bookstore, hence the familiarity.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by FactFinder »

Nancydrew, I have heard that several known serial killers had damage to their temporal lobe areas. Richard Ramirez was diagnosed with temporal lobe epilepsy. Bobby Joe Long was said to have suffered severe head trauma which damaged the temporal lobe area of his brain. I've read about several others but those are the two that come immediately to mind. I'd have to get out my research notes and go over them. I have researched this angle quite a bit after reading Lincoln's book. In a Hollywood take on it, in the movie The Exorcism of Emily Rose, the prosecution tried to imply Emily had "epileptic psychosis. " I poo pooed the idea as being a disorder made up for a Hollywood movie. Sort of like the doctors insisting it was a lesion on Regan's brain in the temporal lobe in The Exorcist. Until I did a little research and the disorder was not made up. Although there is a lot of controversy about it.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Mara »

NancyDrew, it is generous of you to reveal this about yourself and before making any other comments, I want to express my sorrow for what you have endured as the direct, and now ongoing, result of childhood abuse. I'll drop that topic now, since I might inadvertently trigger a bad memory.

I think the condition you describe could explain Lizzie's actions. Do you think she could have so conscientiously cleaned herself up after the murders if TLE were the cause? Would it make sense for there to have been two acts of rage, with a long period of "recovery" between them, but an almost instant one after the second? I think that possibility is intriguing. I wonder if there are any medical observations (from Dr. Bowen or anyone else) in those "no smoking gun" legal papers.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by debbiediablo »

No totally sane person bludgeons their step-mother and then totally obliterates their father's face with a hatchet. But that doesn't mean they're too mentally ill to understand the heinousness of the acts. More likely they feel justified. I, too, have friends with bi-polar, and I work in a field that deals with children who have severe emotional and behavioral problems and major mental illness. I don't see Lizzie as bi-polar.

My vote is for borderline personality disorder and possible sociopathy. Lizzie's mother died as a child; no matter how that is weighed it still remains an abandonment. Then her father abandons her for a new mother, Abby. Persons who are BPD cannot tolerate abandonment. They can be charming and manipulative and liars who believe their own lies no matter how inconsistent. But when threatened with abandonment, especially as adults, there's absolutely no telling how violent the response will be.

They will then turn around and lay blame on everyone around them for their own choices: Lizzie asks Alice Russell "why Alice let her burn the dress" as though Alice is somehow at fault for not stopping her. They will lie with absolute inconsistency and be amazed when people fail to believe.

I don't think she was going to be institutionalized. I think her Andrew was rearranging his estate to ensure that both Abby and the girls were taken care of, and Lizzie saw that as yet another abandonment...one that would never allow her to escape to The Hill where she would be part of society and no one would abandon her again. She would always belong if only she could get there.

But, of course, most of Fall River did abandon her, and she lived her life in the company of servants and theater people. Friends that money could buy. BPD women are often sexually seductive to both men and women. Even to their fathers if they want something badly enough although they often hate their fathers at the same time whether he does or does not refuse their advances. Perhaps Lizzie's incessant demands to be the center of attention and to have Emma's undivided attention and devotion and then the addition of a lesbian lover were more than Emma could tolerate.

Read the latest DSM for the diagnostic criteria for personality disorders with a close eye to borderlines. Then compare to Lizzie.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

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From centuries ago, seizures were looked at as mystical, scarey, strange. People with seizures were outcasts. When a killer, or other deviant was shown to have had epilepsy, people said AH HA! Must have caused it. Yet if a killer also has diabetes, we don't say AH HA! the diabetes caused him to kill. "Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc" a false argument that just because something came after an event, the event must have caused it. Too often in psychology people scramble to find an organic cause for their actions. The biggest problem with this is it takes all responsibility away from the person. "I couldn't help killing that family while drunk driving....I have a disease" Choice Theory by William Glasser states that we ultimately make a choice for what we do. While the 'experts' agree that studies show a slightly higher incidence of mental disorders in epileptics, many believe the differences are so small, that they could be from sampling errors.
We could speculate that Lizzie had Cortical or Medial Temporal Lobe Epilepsy, heck more than half of all Epilepsy is Temporal Lobe. That just means it originates in the area around your ears. But let's not think that explains why she hacked Andrew and Abby with a hatchet!
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by NancyDrew »

Mara:

Thank you for your kind words. Its perfectly okay to talk about my TLE with me. The part of my brain that is affected is the same part that processes spatial relations. When I finally found this out, it was such an ENORMOUS relief, because it explained so much about my life that I previosly couldn't make sense of:

1. Namely, I have incredibly poor spatial abilities. I was a straight 'A' student all through high school, except for Geometry, which I flunked 3 times, and finally got a "D" just out of pity, so I could graduate.

2. My triggers are the usual ones for epilepsy: lack of sleep, stress, alcohol. But also, trying to do anything that requires me to think in 3-D. When I was in college, and taking advanced organic and physical chemistry, we had to draw R ans S enantiomers of molecules (an enantiomer is a mirror image; think of your hands. They are enantiomers). Trying to do this triggered seizures. As would trying to put a french braid in my own hair from the back of my head. Or trying to read a road map. (thank GOD for my GPS!)

I have no idea if Lizzie had epilepsy or not, but if she did, I don't see how it lends to the theory of her guilt OR innocence. I think its much more likely she had a personality disorder.

I'd also like to respond to debbiediablo's comment: "No totally sane person bludgeons their step-mother and then totally obliterates their father's face with a hatchet." I think we have to look at the definition of "sanity." One of them is: Having or showing reason, sound judgement, good sense." But what is "sound judgement" for one person might be considered ill-advised by another.

Lizzie was oriented to space and time; she knew who she was, what year it was...she could dress and feed herself, she could understand and answer questions. She had friends (albeit not many) and participated in society (the Fruit and Flower mission, the WCTU, Sunday school, totoring)...isn't that all evidence of a sound mind?

I guess what I'm getting at is that sanity is not black and white, but rather a sliding scale. What is normal and sane for one person might not be for another.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Curryong »

Sometimes too, we over-think things when it comes to murderers. Because none of us could ever imagine doing what Lizzie presumably did we search for psychiatric explanations. She may just have been (in spite of kindness to animals etc). someone with a core of complete selfishness and greed, wrapped up in a deep sense of entitlement.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by debbiediablo »

I agree that sanity falls on a continuum, and sanity in the courts is defined as knowing right from wrong at the time of the crime. Sanity in a psychologist's office would include having awareness of the empathetic connection between humans that keeps most of us from hatcheting to the point of being unrecognizable the faces of those we are enraged with. Also, someone with a "core of complete selfishness and greed, wrapped up in a deep sense of entitlement" would by definition have a personality disorder diagnosis.

Psychomotor seizures can become violent but not in a focused, organized way that would allow the perpetrator to literally hack two people to death and then leave no clues. The person most likely to be injured with any type of seizure is the person experiencing it.

I will always believe the key to solving this crime is identifying who hated Andrew Borden enough to destroy his face. This is a very personal crime committed by someone who wanted not only to kill him but to depersonalize him. This often occurs in domestic homicides. John Douglas uses the phrase "strip the person of actual identity and familiar power."
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by FactFinder »

I've never believed in all that business about the killer purposefully destroying Andrew's face. My theory has always been that the killer struck Andrew in the head because that is the most likely area to kill someone quickly with a hatchet. The left side was the most exposed as he lay on the couch. If you want someone to die you strike them in the head not the chest, or the arms, or the legs. If you want to kill them quickly without a struggle you go for the head. I stated in another thread that all of the blows were to the back of Abby's head except one. This is because she was lying face down. If she had been facing the killer her blows would have been to the face and maybe all of this business about destroying Andrew's face wouldn't be an issue today. Just as we know the quickest way to kill someone with a gun is to shoot them in the head, aim for the head with a hatchet. The eye was cut because it was in the kill zone. If you're chopping someone's face you're not going to take care to chop around the eye with a 3 1/2 inch hatchet blade.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by debbiediablo »

My point is the first strike was most likely a kill shot. The second and third could be called insurance. The next seven or eight were overkill. Yes, the head is the most vulnerable part of the body for a killer with a hatchet who has easy access. But this was not just killing, it was overkilling. There's a significant difference between the psychology underlying taking a person's life versus destroying their identity.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

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So then, in your opinion, the killer also wanted to destroy Abby's identity as well? But unfortunately Abby was lying on her back? Overkill can be attributed to rage, or to a killer who had no idea how many blows it would take to actually kill a human being without leaving a chance of survival. Sometimes too much psychology is put into things when it's usually just straight forward.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

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Let me pose this question, if you were going to kill someone (I know many of you have never had the actual thought) would you know how many times to strike the person with a hatchet to insure that they were dead? Rage can account for some of the overkill there is no doubt. But so can an amateur killer. Many more blows to Abby would indicate a frenzy. Rage and the idea of not knowing how many blows would render her dead. Many less blows with Andrew by a killer probably still unsure.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Mara »

I live in the country, on a farm, in fact. I'm familiar with various means of slaughter. Though in some ways probably tidier activities than in 1892, I would imagine that people back then were less squeamish about what puts mutton on the table. What do we think Lizzie might have observed along this line, at the Borden farm or elsewhere? How would it have informed her awareness of what to expect when hatchet met heads?
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

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Would Lizzie have actually seen any animals that were being slaughtered? I have my doubts about that. I don't think it was any sort of past time for a lady to go to the barn and watch animals being slaughtered. Being raised on a farm is one thing, your father owning a farm in another state that you occasionally visit to vacation on is another matter in my opinion.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Catbooks »

i have no opinion on if lizzie had any form of epilepsy, but last night i was re-reading alice russell's trial testimony about what lizzie said to alice when she came to visit the night before the murders. it was very strange. if i had a friend who came over to visit and said to me what lizzie said to her, i would most definitely be concerned about their mental health.

i'll see if i can find it in a format i can c&p here.
… And I don't know just what followed, but I said something about her having a good time, and she said, "Well, I don't know; I feel depressed. I feel as if something was hanging over me that I cannot throw off, and it comes over me at times, no matter where I am." And she says, "When I was at the table the other day, when I was at Marion, the girls were laughing and talking and having a good time, and this feeling came over me, and one of them spoke and said, 'Lizzie, why don't you talk?' "
the whole conversation was strange, but the part about 'this feeling came over me,' and being apparently unable to talk due to this feeling stands out especially.

i'm with factfinder on the reason andrew's face was the target. absolutely there was overkill, but i think the reason their heads were the targets was simply because it was the quickest and most efficient way to kill them both.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by PossumPie »

This is sort of twisted, but if the killer wanted them dead but not to suffer, they would administer many blows very quickly so they were not alive long. I once went on a rabbit hunt when I was younger, but absolutely didn't want them to suffer. I wasted much ammo making sure the rabbit I shot was dead so it wouldn't suffer. Needless to say it made me sick, and I don't hunt anymore...

As for the Epilepsy thing again, EVEN if she had TLE, there is no way an hour-and-a-half seizure caused her to kill Abby, talk to Bridget, and her father, then kill him....Improbable if not impossible.

The simplest explanation is usually correct...Abby's back of her head was targeted b/c she was back-to the killer. Andrew's face was targeted b/c he was lying face up to the killer.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Catbooks »

possum, i mentioned that in another thread. i loathe killing anything, but the few times i've had to kill something such as a big tomato hornworm, i've definitely done what would be described as overkill, because i wanted it dead NOW, yesterday! not to suffer. i can easily see that being a component of these murders, especially if lizzie did it.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by PossumPie »

Catbooks wrote:possum, i mentioned that in another thread. i loathe killing anything, but the few times i've had to kill something such as a big tomato hornworm, i've definitely done what would be described as overkill, because i wanted it dead NOW, yesterday! not to suffer. i can easily see that being a component of these murders, especially if lizzie did it.
exactly...Despite my morbid fascination with the Borden crimes, I can't bear to see, think about, or know of animal suffering. If I HAD to kill a deer to eat, else starve, I would have to plan VERY well how to do it with no suffering at all to the deer. A stranger wouldn't care, but a DAUGHTER may want her father dead, but not to suffer.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Catbooks »

PossumPie wrote:
Catbooks wrote:possum, i mentioned that in another thread. i loathe killing anything, but the few times i've had to kill something such as a big tomato hornworm, i've definitely done what would be described as overkill, because i wanted it dead NOW, yesterday! not to suffer. i can easily see that being a component of these murders, especially if lizzie did it.
exactly...Despite my morbid fascination with the Borden crimes, I can't bear to see, think about, or know of animal suffering. If I HAD to kill a deer to eat, else starve, I would have to plan VERY well how to do it with no suffering at all to the deer. A stranger wouldn't care, but a DAUGHTER may want her father dead, but not to suffer.
i'm the same way, i can't stand to see or think about any animal suffering, and would do the same if i absolutely had to kill an animal in order to not starve. one of the reasons i love the movie the gods must be crazy is because of the tribesman whose method of killing is so kind and painless to the animals they need to kill to survive, even thanking the animal as its going to sleep, for giving its life so the bushman can survive. if you've got to do it, that's the way it should be done.

i don't think lizzie would have wanted her father to suffer.

i do love an unsolved mystery. one of the reasons i've stuck with the borden case is because it has far less horribleness to it than the others that caught my attention. no WAY could i deal with jack the ripper, reading all of those extremely sadistic killings, sorting through for clues? no thanks! same with the black dahlia. just too awful.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Curryong »

Ah, but Jack is just as fascinating in his own way as there is a lot of social history (of the East End of London) involved and politicking at Scotland Yard among senior police and the relationship between the police and the Press in those days to read about as well. I've been interested in the Ripper mystery for decades and I'm not interested in sadistic practices, I promise!
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Catbooks »

i know it's fascinating too. unsolved victorian england mystery. but oh my god, i tried reading a few of the descriptions of the murders and i just couldn't take it. i figured there was no sense in even trying to armchair detective that one, because i'd have to read all that. no, no, no, i don't have the stomach for it.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by NancyDrew »

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree...I'm with debbie on this one. I think she obliterated Andrew's face out of rage. I don't think epilepsy had anything to do with it.

I've had seizures, way, way in my past, where, as I was coming "out of them" I was disoriented, and I fought against people who I thought were trying to suffocate me (ie ambulance workers; as a couple of times, people I was with freaked out and called 911.) But I acted defensively, not aggressively.

The blows to Abby...18...my God; it is so many. I've said this a couple of times on here, but try pretend stabbing in the air 18 times; you don't realize how MUCH it is, until you do it. And not wanting Andrew to suffer..I just can't reconcile that with the eye ball cut in half. I'm sure the first blow was excruciatingly painful to him, even as he dozed in a light sleep. No one should die that way..their face mauled by an axe.

Could Lizzie have used a gun? Were there guns in the house?
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by FactFinder »

I do believe that rage was a part of the overkill, but not all of it. I would agree to disagree on that part. Nancy, I'm not sure why the eyeball is so significant. It was part of his face that was also cut very badly. As I stated before if someone is chopping a person about the face I don't think they are going to take care to chop around the eyeball. The hatchet will fall where it falls and cut what it cuts. In no way do I see that the cutting of the eyeball in half could have been intentional with a hatchet. With a scalpal or knife maybe where you have more control over what you're cutting, but not a hatchet. Rage yes, overkill yes, but I also think that she just wanted it over quickly and went for the head. And if you're murdering someone with other living people around, the last thing you want is a struggle to alert anyone to what is going on.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Catbooks »

The blows to Abby...18...my God; it is so many. I've said this a couple of times on here, but try pretend stabbing in the air 18 times; you don't realize how MUCH it is, until you do it. And not wanting Andrew to suffer..I just can't reconcile that with the eye ball cut in half. I'm sure the first blow was excruciatingly painful to him, even as he dozed in a light sleep. No one should die that way..their face mauled by an axe.

Could Lizzie have used a gun? Were there guns in the house?
yeah, i tried it doing just the 11 recently, without a 3 or so pound hatchet in my hand. as long as i've read and thought about this case, i'd never tried emulating the blows. it's a LOT.

i've never read about the borden household having a gun in it, so probably there was none.

but i do think it was about how they were facing her. abby was facing away, so she got it on the back of the head. andrew sleeping with that side of his face up, so that's where he got it. she, or anyone else, needed the element of surprise going for them.

like factfinder, i don't think his eye was her target, just his head, and the hatchet just fell where it did. with andrew, it included his eye.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by debbiediablo »

Staged Domestic Homicide

A staged domestic homicide falls within the category of personal assault murder. The crime is planned and may be due to the same stresses as in an unstaged domestic homicide: a history of conflict due to external sources (financial, vocational, or alcohol, for example) is a common element of domestic homicide.

The crime scene of the well-planned domestic murder reflects a controlled, organized crime. The weapon, fingerprints, and other evidentiary items often are removed. The body is usually not concealed. It will often involve the victim's or offender's residence.

Depersonalization, evidenced by facial battery, overkill, blunt-force trauma, and a focused area of injury, is evidence of a personal assault.

There are often indicators of undoing. This is the killer's way of expressing remorse or the desire to undo the murder. Undoing is demonstrated by the offender's washing of the victim and the weapon. The body may be covered up, but it is not for concealment purposes. Washing or redressing the body, moving the body from the death scene, and positioning it on a sofa or bed with the head on a pillow are all expressions of undoing.

The attitude and emotional state of the family members present at the crime scene can offer insight into the victim– offender relationship. The offender is often at the scene when law enforcement or emergency medical personnel arrive and often makes incriminating statements.

Postoffense interviews of close friends or family members often reveal that the victim had expressed concerns or fears regarding the victim's safety or even a sense of foreboding. The medical and psychiatric history of the victim becomes important if the investigator suspects the crime has been staged to appear to be a suicide or death by natural causes.

SOURCE:
Douglas, John; Burgess, Ann W.; Burgess, Allen G.; Ressler, Robert K. (2013-03-26). Crime Classification Manual: A Standard System for Investigating and Classifying Violent Crime (p. 174). Wiley. Kindle Edition.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by PossumPie »

debbiediablo wrote:Staged Domestic Homicide

A staged domestic homicide falls within the category of personal assault murder. The crime is planned and may be due to the same stresses as in an unstaged domestic homicide: a history of conflict due to external sources (financial, vocational, or alcohol, for example) is a common element of domestic homicide.

The crime scene of the well-planned domestic murder reflects a controlled, organized crime. The weapon, fingerprints, and other evidentiary items often are removed. The body is usually not concealed. It will often involve the victim's or offender's residence.

Depersonalization, evidenced by facial battery, overkill, blunt-force trauma, and a focused area of injury, is evidence of a personal assault.

There are often indicators of undoing. This is the killer's way of expressing remorse or the desire to undo the murder. Undoing is demonstrated by the offender's washing of the victim and the weapon. The body may be covered up, but it is not for concealment purposes. Washing or redressing the body, moving the body from the death scene, and positioning it on a sofa or bed with the head on a pillow are all expressions of undoing.

The attitude and emotional state of the family members present at the crime scene can offer insight into the victim– offender relationship. The offender is often at the scene when law enforcement or emergency medical personnel arrive and often makes incriminating statements.

Postoffense interviews of close friends or family members often reveal that the victim had expressed concerns or fears regarding the victim's safety or even a sense of foreboding. The medical and psychiatric history of the victim becomes important if the investigator suspects the crime has been staged to appear to be a suicide or death by natural causes.

SOURCE:
Douglas, John; Burgess, Ann W.; Burgess, Allen G.; Ressler, Robert K. (2013-03-26). Crime Classification Manual: A Standard System for Investigating and Classifying Violent Crime (p. 174). Wiley. Kindle Edition.
GREAT post Debbie, A woman after my own heart...lists her sources :lol:
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Catbooks »

debbiediablo wrote:Staged Domestic Homicide

A staged domestic homicide falls within the category of personal assault murder. The crime is planned and may be due to the same stresses as in an unstaged domestic homicide: a history of conflict due to external sources (financial, vocational, or alcohol, for example) is a common element of domestic homicide.

The crime scene of the well-planned domestic murder reflects a controlled, organized crime. The weapon, fingerprints, and other evidentiary items often are removed. The body is usually not concealed. It will often involve the victim's or offender's residence.

Depersonalization, evidenced by facial battery, overkill, blunt-force trauma, and a focused area of injury, is evidence of a personal assault.

There are often indicators of undoing. This is the killer's way of expressing remorse or the desire to undo the murder. Undoing is demonstrated by the offender's washing of the victim and the weapon. The body may be covered up, but it is not for concealment purposes. Washing or redressing the body, moving the body from the death scene, and positioning it on a sofa or bed with the head on a pillow are all expressions of undoing.

The attitude and emotional state of the family members present at the crime scene can offer insight into the victim– offender relationship. The offender is often at the scene when law enforcement or emergency medical personnel arrive and often makes incriminating statements.

Postoffense interviews of close friends or family members often reveal that the victim had expressed concerns or fears regarding the victim's safety or even a sense of foreboding. The medical and psychiatric history of the victim becomes important if the investigator suspects the crime has been staged to appear to be a suicide or death by natural causes.

SOURCE:
Douglas, John; Burgess, Ann W.; Burgess, Allen G.; Ressler, Robert K. (2013-03-26). Crime Classification Manual: A Standard System for Investigating and Classifying Violent Crime (p. 174). Wiley. Kindle Edition.
that is very interesting, debbie. a lot of it certainly does fit lizzie and these murders. the external sources of conflict, removal of the weapon and other evidentiary items, overkill, at the scene of the crime when the doctor and law enforcement arrived, and she had expressed concerns and fears about the victim's safety as well as sense of foreboding.

in this instance i don't believe the facial battery played into depersonalization. you have to consider what options lizzie had to carry out these murders. poison (which she may have tried or thought about), and … what else? nothing, really, except a hatchet, ax, or kitchen knives. possibly bludgeoning them to death with a heavy household object, but that might not kill them, and certainly not as quickly as a hatchet would.

i also don't think lizzie positioned andrew (or abby). as far as we know, the pillow was usually there, and i personally believe the reason for his coat being under his head was not an expression of remorse, but to hide the fact that she'd used it to cover herself.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by debbiediablo »

'Depersonalization' means stripping Andrew of his identity, in this case viewed through the eyes of the perpetrator. No doubt Lizzie loved her father, but at that moment in time she hated him enough to kill him. The depersonalization allowed her to do it. The father part of the corpse that was left on the sofa, the face that she both loved and hated, no longer existed. She had to objectify him or she couldn't have taken his life in such a violent manner. Premeditated murder that is personal is not so much about what's expedient as it is about what the murderer needs to do to the victim.
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Post by debbiediablo »

"i also don't think lizzie positioned andrew (or abby). as far as we know, the pillow was usually there, and i personally believe the reason for his coat being under his head was not an expression of remorse, but to hide the fact that she'd used it to cover herself."

I'm not convinced about the pillow either, but it's food for thought. Andrew's position on that sofa looks markedly uncomfortable for a nap although he likely wasn't the kind of guy to put his feet on the furniture! Clearly he was struck from above and behind, and blood splatter indicates he was killed where he laid. What drew this to my attention is that Lizzie vacillated about whether she assisted him with the pillow.

It is possible that she used the coat to cover herself and then used it again to 'undo' the crime. Andrew doesn't seem like someone who would fold a suit jacket when it could be hung over a chair or in the front closet.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Catbooks »

yes, i know what depersonalization means. i just don't agree that's why lizzie targeted his face.

andrew's position on the sofa has always struck me as very uncomfortable as well. but, he definitely would have kept his feet off of the furniture, and being by accounts a stoic sort, i don't think he'd have been all that concerned about creature comforts, so in that light his position seems explainable enough. struck from above and behind, yes.

do you recall which testimony it was when she vacillated about the pillow? i'm re-reading the inquest testimony now, but haven't come across it yet.

i agree with you that andrew would not have folded his coat and put it under his head. he'd have hung it up.
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As I recall the difference was between what she told officials when she was interviewed directly after the murders versus her testimony at the inquest.
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Post by Catbooks »

thanks, i'll keep a lookout for it.
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Post by Curryong »

Andrew's coat was usually 'kept' in the dining room, (don't know whether hung up or kept on the back of a chair) according to Bridget's testimony at the prelim. I think in earlier discussions we joked about how convenient it was for Lizzie to slip it on after ironing her hankies!
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i believe the testimony was that andrew hung his coat up on a hook in the dining room. seems an unlikely place to keep a coat, but there you are. definitely convenient for lizzie to slip it on after ironing her hankies!
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

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The snapshot we have of Lizzie's disordered thinking shows that she blames everyone but Lizzie for her own actions. "Oh, what made you let me do it? Why didn't you tell me?" with regard to burning the dress. And that "they" directed her to change into the pink wrapper. Bridget also changed dresses so the change might not be relevant, but her blaming other people speaks to her personality.

I'm also bothered by her report that, "Someone killed father." Anytime I've ever heard a real life 911 emergency call, the caller always starts with the victim: "My wife, I think she's dead" or "My baby is gone. I can't find my baby." The immediate issue is never who did it but who it was done to.

Mrs. Churchill testified that Lizzie asked Dr. Bowen to send a telegram to Emma but to put it gently as there was an old person present and it would shock her. I would think this would be a huge shock to Emma, much more so than to anyone else!

Both Lizzie and Emma persisted in addressing Bridget as Maggie. After several years this is not normal. Maybe a joke if done once in awhile. Maybe mix-up if done for a few months after the real Maggie left. But habitually calling someone by the wrong name makes me think neither of these women identified Bridget as anyTHING more than an object THAT worked around the house...even considering the caste-like layers of Victorian society.

I'm beginning to think that both of these women were seriously psychologically stunted, not just Lizzie. The fact that Emma insisted on living with people throughout her life rather than staying alone isn't necessarily a sign of good mental health or even that she liked people. She may have had abandonment issues that tracked back to the death of her mother and then "losing her father to Abby." Being alone is just about the worst possible condition for people who fear abandonment.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by twinsrwe »

debbiediablo wrote:… The fact that Emma insisted on living with people throughout her life rather than staying alone isn't necessarily a sign of good mental health or even that she liked people. She may have had abandonment issues that tracked back to the death of her mother and then "losing her father to Abby." Being alone is just about the worst possible condition for people who fear abandonment.
Good point, Debbie! Perhaps this is why it took Emma so long to actually move out of Maplecroft. According to Emma, Rev. Buck advised her to leave Maplecroft. Although we don’t know when Rev. Buck advised her to leave, we do know that he died in March of 1903 and Emma didn’t move out of Maplecroft until June of 1905. So, that is over a 2 year time span that she continued to stay at Maplecroft.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Nadzieja »

For those of you who are looking for books: I just got an email today from the library that the book I ordered arrived. I picked it up and will start it tonight. It looks good. Theaters Of Madness : Insane Asylums & Nineteenth-Century American Culture by Benjamin Reiss.
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Do you think that perhaps Emma reproved Lizzie about parties, drawing attention to herself, theatrical types etc., that Lizzie resented that and a row blew up? Off went Emma to her spiritual adviser who advised her to depart from scenes of debauchery, vice and sin (in Emma's eyes.) Then the sisters calmed down, made-up, and for a while all was peace.

In 1905 Lizzie did something else that drew attention, (maybe a report appeared in the local newspaper of her throwing a party for her friends,) and Emma thought "I can't live like this. I must have peace." So she left.
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Post by Catbooks »

sounds fascinating, nadzieja. perhaps you'd be willing to tell us what you think of it, after you've finished. or even along the way :)
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by Mara »

If such a notice had appeared in the Fall River news, I'm sure someone would have spotted it by now.

I want to see if any Nance O'Neil films are available anywhere, especially "talkies." Oooh.
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Post by Curryong »

Oh Mara, just when I was imagining Lizzie, Nance and all the others writhing about at Maplecroft like hundreds of extras used to in Cecile B. DeMille's silent epics depicting vice, debauchery and sin, you squashed my daydreams!
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We have a movie channel here: TCM Turner Classic Movies. Sometime when they show the silent films they'll show one of Nance O'Neill's. I haven't seen one yet, you just have to catch it at the right time.

Also I saw a book called : Asylum: A Midcentury Madhouse & It's Lessons by Dr. Callaway Enoch. I'll be ordering it from the library when I finish what I'm reading now. I know it's about Worcester State Hospital in Worcester, Ma. It is supposedly one of the first asylums in the country--that I'm not sure of. Worcester is about 20 minutes away from where I live and many many years ago they were having an anniversary open house. So of course I went because I would drive in the city & see this huge beautiful clock tower which was at the entrance. The buildings were amazing and I can see why people had high hopes for these places. Unfortunately the abuse was just horrible. They brought us down in one building where there was a huge cell & there was a crooked employee who would charge the public to see "crazy" people. It's just sad for both sides the people that lived there & the people that worked there. I'm a true amateur on this subject and just from what I've read it's a very sad subject.
Most of the place burnt quite a few years back. I know a lot of the grounds were sold & medical buildings were put up. There is a huge UMass medical hospital near there.
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I love TCM! I'll have to check imbd.com for titles and will be alert to viewing opportunities. I've hesitated subscribing to their plan that buys you a periodic guide of some sort. Maybe I should let a few moths out of my purse and sign up! ;)
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

Post by debbiediablo »

Nance O'Neill streaming as Felice Venable in Cimarron released in 1931

https://swarm.tv/t/KEf
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Post by Bronte »

I also have experience living around someone who is bi-polar which is my mother-in-law and her moods swings will make your head spin.
she can be on a high that will last about 4 days and while her mood is soaring she is known to buy cars,beach cottages,campers,boats and then she crashes..When that happens she starts trying to sale off what ever she has bought and she turns into this vile,rude,and at times even aggressive person.So I could see Lizzie having this illness..My mother-in-law inherited it from her mother and I have no clue how far back it could be traced if someone actually tried to find out for future family members.Lizzie also liked to buy nice things and she wanted to live on the hill and socialize with the upper crust of society.. well my mom -in-law likes to put on appearances it is very important that ppl think they are well off like Lizzie wanted..I just thought I might share this and it is a possibility because when mom rages look out and that could have been what was happening in the Borden household and they were at their wits end and needed to ship her some where so that they could live in peace..
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Post by Curryong »

That is very interesting info about your mother-in-law and her condition, Bronte. How did your husband cope with it when he was younger?
Of course we have to be a bit careful about diagnosing Lizzie, who's been dead for decades, with any condition, but I do think it's notable that Sarah, her mother, was known for her 'spells' (whatever they were; epilepsy perhaps) and temper at times.
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Re: MENTAL ILLNESS

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Bronte wrote:I also have experience living around someone who is bi-polar which is my mother-in-law and her moods swings will make your head spin.
she can be on a high that will last about 4 days and while her mood is soaring she is known to buy cars,beach cottages,campers,boats and then she crashes..When that happens she starts trying to sale off what ever she has bought and she turns into this vile,rude,and at times even aggressive person.So I could see Lizzie having this illness..My mother-in-law inherited it from her mother and I have no clue how far back it could be traced if someone actually tried to find out for future family members.Lizzie also liked to buy nice things and she wanted to live on the hill and socialize with the upper crust of society.. well my mom -in-law likes to put on appearances it is very important that ppl think they are well off like Lizzie wanted..I just thought I might share this and it is a possibility because when mom rages look out and that could have been what was happening in the Borden household and they were at their wits end and needed to ship her some where so that they could live in peace..
Your mother-in-law does sound like clinical Bipolar disorder. What drives me mad is that general practitioners are playing psychiatrists and diagnosing half of the world as bipolar. True bipolar should have manic episodes. Uncontrolled spending, dangerous activities like sexual encounters with strangers, going days without sleep. Believing they can do anything, or are famous. I know people diagnosed with Bipolar who's only symptoms are 'mood swings' Well, heck, who DOESN'T have mood swings??

Patient: "Doctor, I have mood swings. I am fighting with my husband and my life stinks."
Doctor: "Do you have days that you feel good, positive, then days you are depressed or sad?"
Patient: "yea"
Doctor: "you have bipolar, here is a prescription"

ARRRG. A psychiatrist had a 4 year residency learning the trade. Your average family doctor had one 3 credit undergrad course in mental illness and a 3 credit course in med school. They are not trained to make that diagnosis. Today almost 1 person in 20 is diagnosed bipolar. 30 years ago when I started, it was more like 1 person in 100. Psych is like anything, there are fads. 30 years ago, there were almost no children with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. Now half the kids in school are diagnosed that. You may argue it is "better diagnosing today" but I don't buy that. It is fad, trendy, and doctors don't know how to properly make diagnoses.
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Post by debbiediablo »

Autism spectrum disorders and non-verbal learning disorder seem to be the diagnoses du jour for kids and bipolar for adults. Pharmaceutical reps come into clinics and tell doctors what's new in medication and how to prescribe it. They spend a fortune on advertising. For all the concern about addiction to painkillers, stopping some anti-depressant medications results in discontinuation syndrome which can be severe and lasts for weeks. We now have a pill for everything including stopping taking other pills.
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