Lizzie Borden Society Forum

This may seem stupid but would it be possible for someone to be in such a disassociated state (almost like an automaton) during and just after murdering another that they would never be able to admit their actions to themselves or anybody else. I'm thinking here of Lizzie during the viewing of her father's body before the funeral, when she cried and kissed him. As I believe she was his killer that appears to me to be either an Oscar-winning performance or something very strange going on in Lizzie's psyche, to say the least.

i didn't know lizzie had done that. but o.j. simpson behaved the same way, and i believe he was the murder, too. in addition to some acting, i think there was some amount of genuine remorse as well - in both instances.

Yes, I suppose so. We've had people here blubbering in front of TV cameras and appealing for the killer to come forward etc, and later they are arrested for the crime. People are sometimes extremely manipulative.
. I do think Lizzie felt remorse.

Curryong wrote:This may seem stupid but would it be possible for someone to be in such a disassociated state (almost like an automaton) during and just after murdering another that they would never be able to admit their actions to themselves or anybody else. I'm thinking here of Lizzie during the viewing of her father's body before the funeral, when she cried and kissed him. As I believe she was his killer that appears to me to be either an Oscar-winning performance or something very strange going on in Lizzie's psyche, to say the least.

I don't think it is stupid at all. Actually, it’s an interesting thought!

I didn't know that Lizzie cried and kissed her father when viewing his body before the funeral. Do you happen to have a source for this information?

It is in Mrs Holmes's evidence, (Mrs Holmes, motherly friend of Lizzie, defence witness.)

She testified that on the day of the funeral service Lizzie shed tears upon witnessing her father's body. She also gave evidence about the kiss, but apparently it was all too much for Mr Knowlton who raised objections! There was a lot of legal argument and then, after a five minute recess

'The government in its direct case having shown conduct of defendant up to and including the morning of Sunday following the murder, the defendant offers to show by a witness that on Saturday morning after the murder she came downstairs into the room where her father's body was lying prepared for burial and went to the casket with a witness and kissed her father.'

So it seems Knowlton was over-ruled on that occasion and the evidence was allowed.
Whoops, went back to re-check and that evidence (about the kiss) was dis-allowed on the objection of Mr Knowlton, who was in fact upheld! It seems to be on a point of law.

Thank you, Curryong. Jeez, I'd had forgotten about Mrs. Holmes' testimony. Looks like I need to brush up on some things here. It has been a long time since I’ve read through the Official Documents.

Curryong wrote:Yes, I suppose so. We've had people here blubbering in front of TV cameras and appealing for the killer to come forward etc, and later they are arrested for the crime. People are sometimes extremely manipulative.
. I do think Lizzie felt remorse.

I always think of Susan Smith weeping for the return of her children whom she had drowned. I agree that Lizzie was remorseful.

Feeling the "need" to kill isn't the same as hating them. Lizzie (if the killer) would have still felt a regret/remorse that they had to die for her to get the money. Genuine tears at any time don't mean she was innocent.

I know it isn't the same thing, but when I caught a squirrel chewing the wires in my house, I had to kill it. I felt really bad, as I do killing mice, but it HAD to be done. The squirrel would have chewed through the wires and burned my home down. I still feel sad that I had to kill it though.

debbiediablo wrote:

Curryong wrote:Yes, I suppose so. We've had people here blubbering in front of TV cameras and appealing for the killer to come forward etc, and later they are arrested for the crime. People are sometimes extremely manipulative.
. I do think Lizzie felt remorse.

I always think of Susan Smith weeping for the return of her children whom she had drowned. I agree that Lizzie was remorseful.

that's the one i was thinking of, but couldn't remember her name! yes, i remember very well seeing her on tv crying, pleading for the return of her children. after driving them into a lake.

Is Susan Smith still in jail?
Possum, you killed the squirrel to prevent any harm coming to your family. I just wonder how Lizzie justified the killing of her parents to herself, if she was fully aware that she had done it. "Well, I did it for Emma, too....I couldn't let that greedy pig (Abby) inherit...It had to be done, he could have lived on for another ten years...etc"

I agree with Possum regarding the need to kill and tears of remorse...even psychopaths can weep...and love. One of my closest friends admittedly meets the diagnostic criteria for psychopathy (given his profession, he would know.) His explanation is he can 'do psychopath' but he can also choose not to do psychopath. From observation I'd say this is the perfect explanation. Both his father and brother are/were likely psychopaths. One was a General during the Cold War, and the other is a physician. My friend functions very well in his non-violent profession just as he functioned very well as a CIA operative in SE Asia the early 1970s. I'm of the opinion that we all justify each and every one of our acts, regardless of whether it's eating a cookie or killing the bakery owner. When we can no longer justify, we no longer act. The difference between people has to do with the maturity of conscience and the graveness of a threat in any given situation and whether or not the act can be justified. Most people will kill in self-defense or defense of a loved one; some people will kill in defense of an inheritance or because the person 'needs' killing, either in their mind or in the minds of the government.

I don't know how much stock I put in the encylopedia online but there is a very interesting twist- most say on this thread that perhaps Uncle John was there to help Andrew get Lizzie to a sanatorium... here, it says that Uncle John was to be a caretaker of a property that Andrew was buying. What do you think? It's under the section about the buying of the poisoning- in fact, it points out that Lizzie went to a drugstore not at home, but where she was with friends.

The link: http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Lizzi ... orden.aspx

I think the writer of the Encyclopaedia article is getting mixed up with the visits to pharmacies. On the third of August 1892, according to Eli Bence, the druggist clerk, Lizzie attempted to buy Prussic acid for the cleaning of a fur cape which apparently was insect-infested. She was refused, hardly surprisingly. This pharmacy was in Fall River, not very far from Lizzie's home, only a few blocks, in fact.
After the murders and her arrest there were several rumours, none of them substantiated, that Lizzie, or someone resembling her, had been trying to get poison from pharmacies in Fall River in the months leading up to the murder.

Her very brief stay with friends in New Bedford and with her friends at the doctor's house on the coast (only one day there, just before the murders) were fully documented. The police checked her time at the New Bedford boarding house with friends and she was only out alone on one occasion. She bought material. She did not visit any pharmacy there.

It was said that Andrew was rather dissatisfied with the running of one of the farms he owned at Swansea. Uncle John had visited the farm some months before the murders with Emma and another woman, according to his testimony. The last two letters between Andrew and John Morse discuss a man that John thinks might be suitable, and Andrew invited him to visit again.

That last visit may have been to discuss this, more business transfers, possibly a new will, who knows. Andrew trusted John's business judgement and regarded him as a friend. I don't know whether John Morse would have been willing to run a Swansea farm for Andrew, except perhaps very temporarily as a favour. He owned properties out West and was a wealthy man on his own account.

Thanks for clearing that one up, Curryong! I *thought* she visited the pharmacy at home.

PossumPie wrote:Feeling the "need" to kill isn't the same as hating them. Lizzie (if the killer) would have still felt a regret/remorse that they had to die for her to get the money. Genuine tears at any time don't mean she was innocent.

I know it isn't the same thing, but when I caught a squirrel chewing the wires in my house, I had to kill it. I felt really bad, as I do killing mice, but it HAD to be done. The squirrel would have chewed through the wires and burned my home down. I still feel sad that I had to kill it though.

Remember, never ever chew Possum's wires or he'll kill you even as he regrets the act...:-) Look at Oscar Pistorius. He can faint, scream, wail, sob and puke. I'm sure he regrets shooting Reeva, but mostly he regrets being held accountable for shooting Reeva.

I know this is an old thread but I just came to the forum. I always thought she had a codependent personality order with a dash of narcissism. Lizzie always struck me as someone who thought she should be more than what she was but dependent upon her father for anything. She wrapped her narcissism into a nice, neat package disguised by society's leanings about women at the time. I could be off, but all of this is interesting to think about.

Well, ithe would explain her mood swings. Her odd behavior.