Was Andrew gay?

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1bigsteve
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Post by 1bigsteve »

Double post.
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Post by Yooper »

I agree, the totality of the evidence puts Abby's death some time greater than five minutes before Andrew's. As 1bigsteve said, she wasn't seen or heard from beyond a certain point in time. Lizzie also implies this with the note story.
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Post by Kat »

It sounds like the hatchets were in the middle cellar room and the axes were in the front cellar room, when we read Mullaly (above).
But the one hatchet that was the claw-head was on the chopping block by the furnace.

There were 5 implements- 2 hatchets, 2 axes and then the HH.
Does anyone have a different interpretation?
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Post by rgreen4411 »

Andrew's body was found first. How long after was Abbie's body found? Refresh my memory, please. And how long before the MD arrived to make an examination? I think the time of Abbie's death is still debatable. Where was she? She had left after receving a note. The note Lizzie is accused of lying about. The note I suggest Morse created to get Abbie out of the house.
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Post by Shelley »

It would be productive to read the material HERE http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/CrimeLibrary.htm

Yes, the exact time of Abby's last breath cannot be narrowed down as tightly as Andrew's, but there is no doubt she was most sincerely dead before he was. Inasmuch as various timepieces were off somewhat, I suspect most estimates of who arrived when may reflect that. I do believe Bowen's telegram to Emma is a fairly good constant. The trains and telegraph offices usually kept accurate time because they had to.
Here is officer George Allen's statement which should answer most of your questions.

"Fifteen minutes past eleven A. M. the Marshal came out of his office and said “Mr. Allen, I want you to go up on Second street, the house next to Mrs. Buffington’s above Borden street, and see what the matter is.”

I ran out of the station up Second street, and just before I got to Mr. Borden’s house I met Mr.Sawyer. I told him I wanted him to go with me; and he went. When I got to the side door of Mr.Borden’s house, I was met by Dr. Bowen. He said he wanted a police officer. Mr. Sawyer said I was
one. He said “all right, come right in.” I told Mr. Sawyer to guard the side door, and not allow anyone to come in, only police officers.

Dr. Bowen took me into the sitting room where Mr. Borden lay. He was on the lounge with his face turned upwards. Several cuts long and deep on the left side of the face. Doctor said “you go down, and tell the Marshal all about it.” I ran down to the station as fast as I could go, and told the Marshal that Mr. Borden had been cut in the face with something like a razor. He said “is he dead”? I told him he was. He gave me orders to go and find Officer Mullally, which I did in a few minutes, and brought him
to the station. The Marshal gave him orders to go right up to Mr. Borden’s house. He was there by twenty five minutes past eleven o’clock A. M. Just before we got there, Officer Doherty was ahead of us. When we
went up stairs the Doctor said Mrs. Borden had fainted with fright. Officers Mullaly and Doherty turned her over. Officer Doherty said “My God her face is all smashed in.”
I went back to the station, and reported to the Marshal, and he went out, and went up that way."
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Post by Harry »

The time on the telegram was 11:32. Dr. Bowen then went to Baker's drugstore and from there back to the house. Just guessing that he probably arrived back 11:40 to 11:45. Bridget and Addie's climb up those stairs happened before Bowen's return but neither one of them examined Abbie's body.

Dr. Bowen's first visit has always been controversial. Did he think she just fainted? Died of a heart attack? According to the police (Doherty? and ? Too lazy to check. :grin:) yes, the good Doctor, no.
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Post by Shelley »

Figuring it took Allen a minute to take in what the Marshal was saying, put on his hat and gather his wits, say he bolted from the station at 11:16. Racing at a good clip, the Borden house is only about a 4 minute sprint, so Allen and Sawyer could have arrived about 11:20. But then, to speak to Bowen, look at Andrew, then bolt back to the station like thunder, find Mullaly, go back to the station and race back to the house by 11:25 in my mind is stretching it a tad. I would bet it was closer to 11:30.
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Post by RayS »

Shelley @ Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:56 pm wrote:Figuring it took Allen a minute to take in what the Marshal was saying, put on his hat and gather his wits, say he bolted from the station at 11:16. Racing at a good clip, the Borden house is only about a 4 minute sprint, so Allen and Sawyer could have arrived about 11:20. But then, to speak to Bowen, look at Andrew, then bolt back to the station like thunder, find Mullaly, go back to the station and race back to the house by 11:25 in my mind is stretching it a tad. I would bet it was closer to 11:30.
Lt ? Allen had to book in a prisoner at 11:30, he had to immediately return. If Andy had a phone, it would've been done quicker.
Anyway, the times here are pretty irrelevant.

Didn't he put Sawyer at the door to keep people out before he left? Then he did everything he could in his limited time.

PS My old body can walk quarter mile in 5 minutes to the mailbox. What are your times?
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Re: time of Abbie's death questionable

Post by RayS »

rgreen4411 @ Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:52 pm wrote:Morse and Andrew's wheareabouts are accounted for only if one assumes Abbie died 90 minutes before Andrew. Suppose they died witin 5 minutes of each other. Then it is possible to argue Morse killed Abbie and then Andrew. Who flies into a murderous rage twice in one day and several hours apart? I say the timing of the two deaths is closer together than previously thought. I believe the author Masterton argues that point in his book.
I'll be polite and assume you are not an agent-provocateur to stir up dissension by perversely going against accepted facts.
Please explain why you persist in your "theory"?

Uncle John's whereabouts are known, he was never a suspect once the police eliminated him (and Emma too).
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Post by Kat »

Here are the *Probable Sequence of Events*
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... Events.htm
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Post by RayS »

Is there anything on the events before 11:15 call to the police?

PS yes, I looked at the one page. It lacks the times. But I suppose you have a good reason for this.

David Kent's book is the only one that explicitly provided a time line. IMO
PS Edward Radin's book has a timeline based on Lizzie and Bridget. They agree in part, and also differ.
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Post by Kat »

Did you click on the link?
It won't download anything nor hurt your computer, plus I wrote it! :smile:
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Post by Kat »

You can check individual chronologies here:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... logies.htm
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Post by Kat »

I have just as much ability to create a timeline as anyone- Kent- or yourself included.

It was noted on another topic that Lizzie's timeline is off by saying Andrew left around 10 am.
Well, Bridget is missing time too- if one checks her timeline.
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Post by Smudgeman »

Kat @ Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:49 pm wrote:I have just as much ability to create a timeline as anyone- Kent- or yourself included.

It was noted on another topic that Lizzie's timeline is off by saying Andrew left around 10 am.
Well, Bridget is missing time too- if one checks her timeline.
I have been looking at the timelines, and noted Lizzie's was off in another thread. Kat, are you referring to Bridget's missing time from 9:30 to 10:20am, from when she started to gather her stuff to wash the windows to when she said she finished the outside? I don't think she was seen by anybody outside before 10:00am?
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Re: time of Abbie's death questionable

Post by theebmonique »

RayS @ Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:27 pm wrote:I'll be polite and assume you are not an agent-provocateur to stir up dissension by perversely going against accepted facts.
Please explain why you persist in your "theory"?
The bolding and enlargement are mine)


You've got to be kidding RayS...





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Post by Harry »

Kat @ Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:49 pm wrote:I have just as much ability to create a timeline as anyone- Kent- or yourself included.

It was noted on another topic that Lizzie's timeline is off by saying Andrew left around 10 am.
Well, Bridget is missing time too- if one checks her timeline.
Right you are, Kat. It's not all that hard.

I looked at Kent's (page 33+, Forty Whacks). I haven't checked the times he used but two of the events he describes I must have missed in my readings.

1) He has Mrs. Churchill when she came over go into the room to see Andrew's body.

2) He has Mrs. Churchill telling Cunningham to call the police.
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Post by Kat »

Someone else here had mentioned that Mrs. Churchill had told Cunningham to get the police. Maybe that was their source? Thanks Har.

Maybe Kent saw the movie with Liz Montgomery where Mrs. Churchill goes to look at Andrew? Looking at your book chronology, Harry, I see his book was 1992, and the movie was 1975, I believe?

As for Bridget's missing time, I find she is lacking an explanation for what she was doing before she started the
1/4 sitting room inside window as Andrew came home.
Plus she was washing the sitting room windows out of sequence. She was washing the interior of the window closest to the street, when her previous order was to start with the first sitting room window (outside) closest to the kitchen.

I think the window she did start on could have given her a view of Second Street and just happens to be the direction from which Andrew would come.
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Post by Harry »

Kat @ Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:34 pm wrote:Someone else here had mentioned that Mrs. Churchill had told Cunningham to get the police. Maybe that was their source? Thanks Har.
Mrs. Churchill did not know who Cunningham was. I believe Cunningham heard Mrs. Churchill tell Tom Bowles to go find a doctor. His trial testimony, page 421:

"Q. Now, without asking what she said in detail, did you learn from what she said that there was some trouble in the Borden house?
A. I learned it from another party; yes, sir.
Q. While she was there, was it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Some one else, in her presence?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In consequence of learning that what did you do, or after learning it what did you do?
A. There is a paint shop on the corner of Borden and Second Streets, that is Mr. Gorman's paint shop. I went in there and asked for the use of his telephone.
Q. Did you telephone?
A. To the city marshal."
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Post by Shelley »

I believe I am the "someone"
referred to as getting the fact about Cunningham wrong -and I was called on it immediately, but didn't think to clarify my statement was too important after the fact

viewtopic.php?t=2561&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=25

My statement was that Mrs. Churchill summoned help via Cunningham, which might be misleading. I am aware she did not ASK him personally to go call the police , nor was she acquainted with him personally -but rather that Cunningham's overhearing of the conversation between Addie and Tom Bowles (who I believe actually roomed with Mrs. Churchill at one point in the past) was the catalyst for that call finally being put through from Gorman's paint and paper store. "Via" was an inappropriate way to say it I guess. I should have rephrased that to say Thanks to Mrs. Churchill's foresight in going across the street to raise the alarm to someone she knew whom she thought could assist, her effort finally succeeded in prompting a bystander to action. Whether Cunningham's action was motivated by a thought to sell a scoop to newspapers or truly get the police, may never be entirely known. But, still, the desired result was obtained in the end.
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Post by Harry »

Heavens, Shelley, that's a minor thing. No one here doubts your expertise.

My comments regarding Kent were meant that even the authors don't bother to check the source documents. Anything that people did or supposedly did would alter his timeline since he carries it to an extreme using minutes and seconds.

Mrs. Churchill would be the last one to want to see Andrew, but I believe the "Legend" movie has her opening the door and looking in. I don't remember what the movie has her doing over at the stable.

Maybe Kent watched the movie too many times. :grin:
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Post by Shelley »

What has puzzled me for so long was why either Dr. Chagnon or Dr. Kelly was not sent for in a pinch, when Bowen was unavailable. I would have thought of them immediately- even though Kelly was a pediatrician- who cares in such a crisis? And how convenient that all three doctors were out at the time-what were the odds of that? Of course maybe it was routine for them to be out on morning calls and come back for lunch- and Lizzie would not have known Chagnon was out of the city that day.

I have always admired Addie's fortitude and good sense in going across the street for help. I think I would have been inclined to go inside and have a look at the situation with Andrew first. I think Lizzie knew Andrew was good and dead, and communicated that to Addie. Otherwise, I do believe Addie would have sought a doctor, or rushed in to see if there was anything to be done for the victim.
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Post by RayS »

Shelley @ Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:02 am wrote:What has puzzled me for so long was why either Dr. Chagnon or Dr. Kelly was not sent for in a pinch, when Bowen was unavailable. I would have thought of them immediately- even though Kelly was a pediatrician- who cares in such a crisis? And how convenient that all three doctors were out at the time-what were the odds of that? Of course maybe it was routine for them to be out on morning calls and come back for lunch- and Lizzie would not have known Chagnon was out of the city that day.

I have always admired Addie's fortitude and good sense in going across the street for help. I think I would have been inclined to go inside and have a look at the situation with Andrew first. I think Lizzie knew Andrew was good and dead, and communicated that to Addie. Otherwise, I do believe Addie would have sought a doctor, or rushed in to see if there was anything to be done for the victim.
What was the practice at that time? To see patients in the hospital in the morning, then private patients at home afterwards? (I don't know.)
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Re: time of Abbie's death questionable

Post by RayS »

theebmonique @ Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:16 pm wrote:
RayS @ Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:27 pm wrote:I'll be polite and assume you are not an agent-provocateur to stir up dissension by perversely going against accepted facts.
Please explain why you persist in your "theory"?
The bolding and enlargement are mine)

Youve got to be kidding RayS...

Tracy...
Wrong again, "Tracy". Who in their right mind would blame Uncle John for the killings? Like Emma, he had an alibi for Andy's death, and probably Abby as well. Those more expert (read all the books) can say for sure.
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Post by RayS »

Kat @ Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:49 pm wrote:I have just as much ability to create a timeline as anyone- Kent- or yourself included.

It was noted on another topic that Lizzie's timeline is off by saying Andrew left around 10 am.
Well, Bridget is missing time too- if one checks her timeline.
Yes, you do. Did you reference Edward Radin's book for his parallel timelines base on the testimony of Lizzie and Bridget? They sort of overlap but also differ. Any timeline must take that into account.

Can we all agree on anyone person's timeline? Probably not.

Still, no bloodstains or murder weapon on site.
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Re: time of Abbie's death questionable

Post by theebmonique »

RayS @ Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:42 am wrote:
theebmonique @ Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:16 pm wrote:
RayS @ Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:27 pm wrote:I'll be polite and assume you are not an agent-provocateur to stir up dissension by perversely going against accepted facts.
Please explain why you persist in your "theory"?
The bolding and enlargement are mine)

Youve got to be kidding RayS...

Tracy...
Wrong again, "Tracy". Who in their right mind would blame Uncle John for the killings? Like Emma, he had an alibi for Andy's death, and probably Abby as well. Those more expert (read all the books) can say for sure.
You TOTALLY mised what I said Ray, per your usual twisting of the information. Deja vu.





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Post by Smudgeman »

Yes, and Rays is also "editing" his previous posts after someone replies.
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Post by RayS »

Smudgeman @ Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:27 pm wrote:Yes, and Rays is also "editing" his previous posts after someone replies.
Isn't that a perverse complaint?
Next you'll be saying some people are using the [Ignore] button.

BTW the [Ignore] button is missing from my msg board.
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Post by Smudgeman »

Just an observation, and a bit sneaky don't you think acute observer?
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doubts about time of death

Post by rgreen4411 »

On page 29 of Edwin Porter's book, he states "Officer Allen positively asserts he was at the house at 10:20" Clearly this is an error. He must mean 11:20.
In the same book Porter gives Morse's age as 69. At the trial Morse said he was 59.
I do not think they were able to accurately determine the time of Abbie's death. The first doctor on the scene placed a sheet over Andrew some time before the body was examined by the second doctor on the scene. Maybe the sheet slowed the rate at which Andrew's blood congealed. Abbey's body was examined later and her blood was congealed, but her body was not covered by a sheet as she was face down.
Why do I persist in my theory? How about the note Lizzie claimed Abby received? Either Lizzie lied OR Abby received a note and was out of the house briefly. Did Morse create the note and later after killing Abby destroy the note?
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Post by Yooper »

RayS @ Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:43 pm wrote:
Smudgeman @ Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:27 pm wrote:Yes, and Rays is also "editing" his previous posts after someone replies.
Isn't that a perverse complaint?
Next you'll be saying some people are using the [Ignore] button.

BTW the [Ignore] button is missing from my msg board.
The complaint is not perverse, the act is, especially for someone who accuses others of using "weasel words". Perhaps "weasel posts" applies?
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Post by rgreen4411 »

Does anyone remember the song about the Borden murders by the Kingston Trio, "You can't Chop your Papa up in Massachusetts"? It was hilarious. Can anyone download it to this site?
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Post by Harry »

I don't remember the Kingston Trio recording it but do remember the Chad Mitchell Trio. You can read all the words on Mondo Lizzie at:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/MondoLizz ... r-hoedown/

As a special treat you can see it performed in New Faces of 1952 also on Mondo Lizzie at:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/MondoLizz ... s-of-1954/

Enjoy! The actress portraying Lizzie is hilarious.
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youtube video

Post by rgreen4411 »

Thank you Harry! Great song!
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Post by william »

And while you are checking this out, dont forget all of the other great Lizzie clips on Mondo/You Tube.

Thank you Stefani!
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Post by RayS »

rgreen4411 @ Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:33 pm wrote:Does anyone remember the song about the Borden murders by the Kingston Trio, "You can't Chop your Papa up in Massachusetts"? It was hilarious. Can anyone download it to this site?
IS there ANY factual truth in that song?

IF Lizzie Dunnit, then "you can chop your Poppa up in Fall River". As long as you've got a million bucks to rent the best lawyer in town.
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Post by Allen »

Shelley @ Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:02 pm wrote:Based on the progression of digestion of the food in the stomachs, the pooling of blood pattern settling in a corpse, and the bright red, fresh and free-flowing blood issuing from Andrew' s wounds and the dark, congealed blood of Abby's there is no possiblity that they could have been killed 5 minutes apart. The autopsy reports are in the Crime Library and can be read there. Naturally no smart coroner will try for more than about an hour margin in time of death because so many factors come into play in determining time of death from age, health, weight, room temp, heat sources in the room, etc.

But it was established that a substantial interval separated the two murders with Abby's likely placed somewhere between 9:15- 9:45 and Andrew's was right on the money (as people had seen him alive)- at about 11 a.m. The food digestion was key- and Abby's had not progressed near as far.
I am playing a little catch up again. I have always thought that food digestion was a good indication of time of death. But the more I think about the matter, it is only acccurate so far as you can be positively certain of everything that was consumed by the person and when.
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Post by RayS »

One book said that food can be digested in 2 to 3 hours, leaving no time marker. Since they both ate the same food at the same time that would allow the estimates.

How very nice of you to inform us of the scientific facts. What about Willy's death certificate? If you can't get it, that's ok.


One mystery novel posed an interesting question. If the person in a hotel room ordered steak, potatoes, salad, and peas, but her stomach had steak, potatoes, salad, and corn, what would this mean?
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Post by Shelley »

Naturally it is helpful knowing what was consumed and how much, but the size of food particles and the progression from stomach, to upper and lower intestines- the position of where food particles in the digestive system are found is even more important. Especially breakfast, when no food has been consumed for a very long time prior (supper Wednesday night) can be very revealing in fixing times. The human digestive tract is about 30 feet in length. By the time digested food gets to the end of the small intestine, virtually all of its nutrients have been removed along with most of its water. So that is also a good indicator of how long the food has been processing in the tract. The average amount of time before food leaves the stomach and enters the upper intestine is 2-4 hours. We know the Bordens ate at about 7:30, ((and we know the menu)and the findings of the gut contents are consistent with the view that Abby expired before Andrew- also backed up by blood evidence.

Interesting stuff.
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Post by rgreen4411 »

Many factors influence the rate at which food progresses through the digestive tract. The fluid content, the fiber content, the level of physical activity, the age of the person, even gender. Have you ever been pregnant and experienced how the hormones slow down the intestines? Caffeine, hot beverages are other variables. As for the rate of the blood congealing, the first doctor on the scene placed a sheet over Andrew. This may have altered the rate at which the blood congealed.
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Post by Allen »

Shelley @ Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:09 pm wrote:Naturally it is helpful knowing what was consumed and how much, but the size of food particles and the progression from stomach, to upper and lower intestines- the position of where food particles in the digestive system are found is even more important. Especially breakfast, when no food has been consumed for a very long time prior (supper Wednesday night) can be very revealing in fixing times. The human digestive tract is about 30 feet in length. By the time digested food gets to the end of the small intestine, virtually all of its nutrients have been removed along with most of its water. So that is also a good indicator of how long the food has been processing in the tract. The average amount of time before food leaves the stomach and enters the upper intestine is 2-4 hours. We know the Bordens ate at about 7:30, ((and we know the menu)and the findings of the gut contents are consistent with the view that Abby expired before Andrew- also backed up by blood evidence.

Interesting stuff.
What I was getting at is we know what was on the menu for breakfast but are we certain that the only time Andrew consumed anything was when they were all sitting at breakfast? If he consumed anything before or after breakfast would this alter the findings if the doctors were assuming he'd only eaten at the breakfast table?
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Post by Allen »

RayS @ Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:15 pm wrote:
How very nice of you to inform us of the scientific facts. What about Willy's death certificate? If you can't get it, that's ok.

Ray I applied for the certificates by mail. This takes time. They said to allow 4-6 weeks for delivery.
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Post by Allen »

RayS @ Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:15 pm wrote:

One mystery novel posed an interesting question. If the person in a hotel room ordered steak, potatoes, salad, and peas, but her stomach had steak, potatoes, salad, and corn, what would this mean?
I would take this to mean that corn take a longer time to digest. It stays in the system longer and is harder to breakdown, therefore it was still present in the system.
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Post by diana »

In 1893, when he was asked to approximate a time of death for Mr. and Mrs. Borden based on color and consistency of blood, heat of the bodies, and assumed rate of digestion, Dr. Draper said: “I place first in the series the differences observed in digestion in the two bodies.” (Trial, 1045)

Yet at the O.J. Simpson trial “experts had to admit that the quantity and quality of stomach contents had long ago been dismissed as the most unreliable of all post-mortem time scales.” (“The Time of Death” Arrow books 2003, Jessica Snyder Sachs.)

In his book, ‘Lizzie Didn’t Do It’, Professor William Masterton makes reference to the Canadian trial of Steven Truscott trial in the 1950’s. The prosecution’s case against Truscott in 1959 was mounted in large part on the testimony of medical experts and led to his conviction and imprisonment. It should be noted that one of the experienced pathologists who was asked to testify for the prosecution at the trial immediately refused to estimate time of death based on stomach contents alone because of the many variables that influence digestion and warned that stomach contents may carry more weight in court than they should.

Still there were other experts with no such compunctions. Masterton points out that, based on the analysis of stomach contents in the Truscott case, four different experts estimated the time of death as:
1. Between 7:15 and 7:40 p.m.
2. Between 9:15 and 9:45 p.m.
3. Between 6.45 p.m. and 4:45 a.m. the next morning
4. Between 3:15 and 7:15 a.m. (source: Masterton, p. 209)

This was more than half a century after the Borden trial and was an instance where there was never any doubt as to the time and the exact contents of the victim’s last meal.

This particular case was reviewed by the Ontario Court of Appeal last summer (2006) 47 years later. The convicted man had served his time but was granted an appeal in an effort to clear his name. On the stand in 2006 Bernard Knight, the author of a text on forensic pathology said it was ‘ludicrous’ for the coroner in the original case to set a narrow time frame for the death of the victim based on stomach contents. Dr. Knight, a professor emeritus of forensic pathology said it’s impossible to pinpoint an exact time of death, even with today’s science and that the experts in the Truscott trial in 1959 who based much of their conclusions on undigested food failed to take into account the great margin of error in that variable. (Canadian Press, July 7, 2006)

I'm not saying Abby didn't die before Andrew. But I think the more likely reason to believe she did predecease her husband is not the analysis of her stomach contents but rather that no one admits seeing her after 9 a.m.
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Post by Allen »

Awesome post diana. Thank you very much for the information you provided. :smile: In doing research there are many reasons that digestion could be not considered a very reliable method this is true. Even the size of the meal ingested has a baring on how long it takes to digest. The suggestion made in another thread about castor oil (laxative) speeding up the process that food moves through the digestive tract is also something to consider which I had not before. All in all I think the contents of the stomachs are not reliable evidence. We are dealing with the findings of 1892 scientists/doctors when we look at the evidence, I tend to wonder sometimes exactly how accurate some of the findings are/were.


http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mi ... ime/4.html
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Post by Shelley »

I believe fragments of fruit were located and said to be apple- but possibly pear may have been so similar as to be easily mistaken for apple.

Certainly there are variables in comparing the digestion of one person to another, but most sources agree that this depends on a variety of factors including the amount of food you have consumed, how much fat it contains, and also the acidity of the stomach. Farinaceous products such as jonnycakes and baker's bread, and carbohydrates such a bananas and sugar cookies, would break down much faster than meat or fatty mutton. All sources I have consulted agree though, that the stomach would be empty of all its contents within 2-4 hours. Absorption and further digestion in the small intestine is granted 4-6 hours as an average, with most of the mositure squeezed from the food mass (bolus) and finally into the colon for the last bit of digestion and rehydration before the remnants can be expelled. I recall Mr. Borden's second autopsy mentioning feces present- which would have to have been his supper or lunch from Wednesday.
I cannot remember seeing any evidence that Mr. Borden ate after supper Wednesday night or before breakfast on Thursday morning. The fast then, if this is accurate would have been perhaps about 13 hours if he had finished dinner by 6 on Wednesday night, and had breakfast at 7: 30. Thursday morning.

From first mouthful to expulsion on the other end- most doctors will allow 20-25 hours as a rule, although , it is true, some hard to digest and absorb morsels hang around for longer periods. The new craze for colonic irrigation bemoans the fate of hard cheeses and its proclivity for "hanging out" for weeks in the colon before being expelled. Ugh.
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Post by Shelley »

Interestingly, Andrew was drinking Garfield Tea- a herbal over the counter preparation which contained, among other things, Artemisia ludoviciana , or white sage- an old herbal remedy well-known to many Indian tribes and used for colds, coughs, headaches, stomachaches, as a compress for fevers, to stop diarrhea, as a physic, as a regulator of menstrual disorders, and for influenza.

Thujone, a terpene-like ketone and essential oil, is also found in white sage and may be responsible for some of its medicinal effects. However, it is poisonous in large doses. The Food and Drug Administration classifies Artemisia as an unsafe herb containing “a volatile oil which is an active narcotic poison”. So if Lizzie had only read up on her herbs- she might have killed Andrew with his own Garfield tea- although I suspect it would have taken a great deal of it to have produced fatal effects. The Victorian medicine cabinet was just chock full of lethal stuff. :shock:
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Post by Allen »

All this information is interesting, but I guess the best way to get definitive answers for myself is to ask someone in the field. :smile: The coroner's office in Allegheny county is going to think I'm plotting a murder myself before too much longer. :-? The forensic end of investigating crime has always fascinated me. I have not learned as much I would have liked thus far in my classes unfortunately. Estimating time of death depends on so many variable factors within the different methods.
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Post by Shelley »

I have not been locked up yet. The University of New Haven Forensics School has been very patient and helpful about sending me information over the years. Professor James Starrs at George Washington University answers letters and emails on his findings in the Borden case as well- and is a font of knowledge on all things forensics. Oh to be 33 again- this would surely be a field I would have taken up with a vengeance. :lol:
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Post by Kat »

Great post, Diana, thanks!

My only input to this discussion about digestion rates would be to ask Please may we have the sources for the info, Shell, as there are quotes, and specialized information? Thanks!
(11:24 pm and 11:43 pm postings)
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