Was Andrew gay?

[Yooper]

Something tells me that rgreen has a hidden agenda.

Maybe we should stop feeding the Troll.

[theebmonique]

Ms. Green seems to have gone missing...?





Tracy...

[Kat]

I think this poster had some grasp of the case and at least argued their position pretty well- for a new person she did a decent job following thru with her theory.
I'm just sorry it became kind of extreme. Maybe if we had tempered the topic earlier on she might have been able to accept modifications. She still may. I'm certainly not laughing at the topic, but it is one that is hard to believe.

[RayS]

Overall, this is another version of "the Intruder did it". Todd Lunday called him "Nobody", Arnold Brown gave a rational explanation as to "who done it".

Aside from the fact that Uncle John could not and would not do it this seems like a perverted copy of the Brown Theory, Part 1. IMO

Did somebody say "green" was a female? The writings suggest male to me. But what do I know, I could be wrong again as per Tawdry.

[Kat]

I don't know where she went. I think she did a big thing to come here as a new poster and argue a topic that is already up to 15 pages.
That is rare. I certainly would accept her if she returned, even without proving her case- if she just wants to talk about the facts.

[RayS]

I don't know where she went. I think she did a big thing to come here as a new poster and argue a topic that is already up to 15 pages.
That is rare. I certainly would accept her if she returned, even without proving her case- if she just wants to talk about the facts.

The detailed knowledge shown by "green" suggests this poster is not a novice reader about this case, whatever they may claim.

I suggest someone created a new identity to post a story that they would not care to under their old, known name.

As for all the pages, it shows how a provocative posting can stimulate a lot of answers or rebuttals. The claim is easy to understand, but suggests some kind of strange logic or thinking.

I wonder what will happen next?

[RayS]

Given the events here is my conclusion.

"rgreen" knew quite a bit about this case, and used his/her knowledge to create a provocative hypothesis. Many fell into this trap to comment in a negative way. The result is that "rgreen" could answer and create a high msg count that allowed entry into the privy.

I think this was the original intent of this unknown poster.

Has anyone looked up ZIP codes that end in 4411?

[Kat]

You are really into this- you've been gone and come back to this topic.

Well, if the person was a poseur, we don't know about it. I wouldn't worry too much about it Ray- the post count to get into the Privy has been raised quite a bit.

If anyone is receiving PM's that are annoying or questionable, they should contact Admin

[RayS]

I do not want to receive ANY Private Messages since any communication should be on one of the topics here or "Stay to Tea".

Some months ago I was sent a nasty insulting PM, but didn't reply. I never do to fools. Some weeks later when I went back to review it (to impeach what this person said on one topic) I found his msg was changed. So PM are not really reliable if they can be changed.

The exception is for anything that is really Private and Confidential, Eyes Only. The few who have used this will know what I mean.

PS Here is the one line left out of about seven:

I would suggest that you didn't respond to those who are choosing to ignore you. Your "opinions" are old and dried out, just like you.

[Kat]

I don't think it's possible to edit a PM.
I have no other answer for you.

[nishmat]

a. Men are not Gay because they wear a "pink ring".
b. Men are not Gay because the like poetry and herbal tea.
c.

[sguthmann]

Given the events here is my conclusion.

"rgreen" knew quite a bit about this case, and used his/her knowledge to create a provocative hypothesis. Many fell into this trap to comment in a negative way. The result is that "rgreen" could answer and create a high msg count that allowed entry into the privy.

I think this was the original intent of this unknown poster.

Has anyone looked up ZIP codes that end in 4411?

Honestly!!!!

[Kat]

Ray, if you are editing your post to include a line from a Private Message to you, that is a big "No-No". That is against the rules and you should know better! (If that quote is not from a private message than sorry. But it looks like it.)

[RayS]

Privacy is maintained by not disclosing the poster's identity.

Quoting this is one way to tell people to not send any to me.

I wasn't aware that such quotes are against the rules. Especially when its an insult!!!

[Kat]

Well if it is private to you it should remain private but you can complain to the ADMIN. and show it to her, because you got it on her Forum.

[theebmonique]

ANYONE who doesn't want PM's can make that happen by clicking the "NO" to PM's in the "preferences" section of their profile.





Tracy...

[1bigsteve]

ANYONE who doesn't want PM's can make that happen by clicking the "NO" to PM's in the "preferences" section of their profile.





Tracy...

Speaking of "PM's," does anyone know how to save them when our "save box" is full? I've had to print mine out and my box is stuffed full.

Like Nishmat said above, wearing a "pinky ring" doesn't mean a man is gay. I love poetry, beautiful music, tea, the Ballet, heart-warming movies and such but I am as far away from being gay as a human can get. I mean Sophia Loren can smile at me anytime!

I haven't yet read all 15 pages but I really don't feel that Andrew was gay. I don't think he was cheating on Abby with another woman and I don't think he ever molested his daughters either. It is certainly possible but I highly doubt it. I can't imagine a father ever wanting to do that.

-1bigsteve (o:

[1bigsteve]

I don't know where she went. I think she did a big thing to come here as a new poster and argue a topic that is already up to 15 pages.
That is rare. I certainly would accept her if she returned, even without proving her case- if she just wants to talk about the facts.

The detailed knowledge shown by "green" suggests this poster is not a novice reader about this case, whatever they may claim.

I suggest someone created a new identity to post a story that they would not care to under their old, known name.

As for all the pages, it shows how a provocative posting can stimulate a lot of answers or rebuttals. The claim is easy to understand, but suggests some kind of strange logic or thinking.

I wonder what will happen next?

I don't know anything about rgreen but a person posting under different names does happen. I was on a forum talking with six different people before I found out they were all one person. I felt like a fool!!

Ray, are you sure that you are not posting under different names??

-1bigsteve (o:

[rgreen4411]

I am retired now and ready to read more books on the subject of Lizzie. Does anyone have any suggestions? I have read most of them I think. I wish someone would post a book list on this website.

[Harry]

There is an extensive list on the Lizzie Borden Virtual Museum and Library. See here:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... hyCase.htm

[snokkums]

That's a bit a twist Morse and Abby a couple. A definate chuckle.

[rgreen4411]

It may be difficult to consider the possibility Andrew was gay. However, it is equally difficult to believe someone brutally murdered a female and then remained in the house for a few hours and then killed again. Modern forensics raise the issue that the time frame of the murders may be closer together than previously thought. When I say this I refer to Masterton's book. No one is suggesting wearing female jewelry is a clear indication of homosexuality. However, Andrew, a wealthy man, married a dowdy woman and the marriage was childless. Morse is a frequent over night guest. It is the entire picture when taken together which raises the question. Were Andrew and Morse gay? Did Abby walk in on them? Did everyone over react? Lizzie said she heard someone moan. It wasn't Andrew who lay dead. Was it Morse leaving via the front door? Did Lizzie hear the moan in stereo through the back door and outside?

[SallyG]

It may be difficult to consider the possibility Andrew was gay. However, it is equally difficult to believe someone brutally murdered a female and then remained in the house for a few hours and then killed again. Modern forensics raise the issue that the time frame of the murders may be closer together than previously thought. When I say this I refer to Masterton's book. No one is suggesting wearing female jewelry is a clear indication of homosexuality. However, Andrew, a wealthy man, married a dowdy woman and the marriage was childless. Morse is a frequent over night guest. It is the entire picture when taken together which raises the question. Were Andrew and Morse gay? Did Abby walk in on them? Did everyone over react? Lizzie said she heard someone moan. It wasn't Andrew who lay dead. Was it Morse leaving via the front door? Did Lizzie hear the moan in stereo through the back door and outside?

Andrew and Abby were up in age when the murders occurred. When he married Abby, she was not dowdy by any means..she was quite pretty with a nice figure. I daresay my husband and I, in our 50's, don't look the same as when we were married.

As for being childless, look at the number of couples today who cannot have a child through traditional means and look to medical intervention to become pregnant. There are many, many reasons for Abby to have been childless. And I've known gay men who married and fathered several children.

Morse was not a frequent overnight guest...he was, at most, an occasional overnight guest. He was a bachelor...but being a bachelor does not make a man gay.

Plus, we can account for all of his time that morning...and it leaves no time for some Afternoon Delight with Andrew or anyone else, for that matter. Andrew was seen downtown that morning and all of his time was accounted for as well.

It's an entertaining scenario, but, if you study the evidence, it's one that is very unlikely.

[rgreen4411]

Please refer to Masterton's re-examination of the time frame of the murders. Once the timing of the murders is reconsidered, the entire alibi of Morse needs to be scrutinized again. Morse was a frequent over night guest and had known Andrew since he was 17. Morse was 59 when Andrew died. No one suggested "afternoon delight". It would be more aptly described as a few stolen moments on the morning of the crime. Andrew and Morse had known one another for over forty years and had many opportunities to be alone with each other. This may have been the one time they were caught.

[rgreen4411]

MY THEORY

Morse created the note which sent Abby out of the house.

Morse was in the possession of Andrew's "lost" front door key.

The men wanted to be alone and went to the guest bedroom.

Abby returned sooner than expected and heard unusual activity in the bedroom.

Fearing an intruder Abby grabbed a weapon (the new ax?) and burst into the bedroom.

Perhaps the bedroom door was locked, but Abby had the key.

Abby discovered her husband and Morse engaged in sexual activity.

She may have waved the ax in protest or merely appeared threatening by just having it in her hand.

Morse, fearing for his life and reputation, killed Abby.

During the assault Andrew attempted to intervene and suffered a blow to the head. This was a closed head concussion (no blood). The blow may have been accidental.

Dazed from the concussion Andrew staggered to the couch.

Morse killed him because he was a witness. Author Masterton relying on modern forensics places the possible time of the two deaths as closer together than previously thought. I theorize Andrew died shortly after Abby.

Morse was leaving via the front door as Lizzie was coming in the back door. Lizzie heard someone moan. She heard Morse moan in stereo from both outside the house and through the door. Morse had just exerted a lot of energy and an audible moan was a factor.

Morse had been to his niece's house earlier that day.

Morse returned to his niece's home and changed the clocks in her house to confuse the occupants about the time frame.

Morse may have been naked at the time of the murder or he may have left clothes at the Borden house on a previous visit.

Morse returned to the Borden house and MEMORIZED details for an alibi. Morse was not even surprised to see throngs of people and police swarming the house.

Morse had some dried blood on him. He went to the back yard where he used several very moist pears to dilute and rub the blood off. Discarded after use the pears dried quickly in the summer heat and blended in with the ground.

This explains why Morse spend much of the afternoon in the backyard. He was stepping on the bloody pears to make them blend into the ground.

When people became too nosy, Morse reportedly locked some of them in the barn. Eventually insects, animals and the sun destroyed the pears and the blood evidence.

I believe I have addressed motive, opportunity and explained the lack of blood evidence. In his business Morse may have often slaughtered cattle with a similar method and/or chopped wood. The action of swinging a hatchet may have been routine for him.

[SallyG]

Please refer to Masterton's re-examination of the time frame of the murders. Once the timing of the murders is reconsidered, the entire alibi of Morse needs to be scrutinized again. Morse was a frequent over night guest and had known Andrew since he was 17. Morse was 59 when Andrew died. No one suggested "afternoon delight". It would be more aptly described as a few stolen moments on the morning of the crime. Andrew and Morse had known one another for over forty years and had many opportunities to be alone with each other. This may have been the one time they were caught.

You need to keep an open mind on this case and not try to doggedly focus on one, and only one, scenario. I don't care if they were both killed together within 2 minutes of each other, Morse was still gone and did not arrive back until the murders were discovered. His alibi was checked out thoroughly. And Andrews movements that morning are witnessed by many people. Abby never left the house that morning.

Sure, Andrew and Morse could have had a thing going for years for all I know...But on that morning when the murders were committed, Morse had a solid alibi.

Again, keep an open mind and look at what the evidence is telling you.

(Why am I getting a ghastly vision of Ray in my head?)

[rgreen4411]

Of course, Andrew's movements outside the house were seen by other people. That doesn't mean he did not have a few minutes to spend with Morse just before the murder. The author Masterton believes Abbey did leave the house. Who did Lizzie hear moan as she reentered the house?

[mbhenty]

[SallyG]

Of course, Andrew's movements outside the house were seen by other people. That doesn't mean he did not have a few minutes to spend with Morse just before the murder. The author Masterton believes Abbey did leave the house. Who did Lizzie hear moan as she reentered the house?

When Morse left the house that morning, both Andrew and Abby were very much alive. If Abby left the house that morning, she must have been invisible, because she was seen by no one. If there was a note, which I doubt, no one ever stepped forward to claim responsibility for sending it. That's a bit strange if there WAS a note. However, the story of the note came from Lizzie to explain the apparent absence of Abby from the house. Abby, of course, was upstairs dead. Not only did no one ever step forward to say they sent the note, but the note was never found..anywhere.

If Morse left the house while Abby and Andrew were alive, and did not return until well after the murders had been discovered, then please tell me WHEN he and Andrew had the time for a romantic interlude??

I'm afraid your theory does not fit the evidence.

[kssunflower]

Just curious why Masterson was under the impression Abby had left the house that morning? I have to agree with mbhenty, this is an amusing thread.

[SallyG]

MY THEORY

Morse created the note which sent Abby out of the house.

Morse was in the possession of Andrew's "lost" front door key.

The men wanted to be alone and went to the guest bedroom.

Abby returned sooner than expected and heard unusual activity in the bedroom.

Fearing an intruder Abby grabbed a weapon (the new ax?) and burst into the bedroom.

Perhaps the bedroom door was locked, but Abby had the key.

Abby discovered her husband and Morse engaged in sexual activity.

She may have waved the ax in protest or merely appeared threatening by just having it in her hand.

Morse, fearing for his life and reputation, killed Abby.

During the assault Andrew attempted to intervene and suffered a blow to the head. This was a closed head concussion (no blood). The blow may have been accidental.

Dazed from the concussion Andrew staggered to the couch.

Morse killed him because he was a witness. Author Masterton relying on modern forensics places the possible time of the two deaths as closer together than previously thought. I theorize Andrew died shortly after Abby.

Morse was leaving via the front door as Lizzie was coming in the back door. Lizzie heard someone moan. She heard Morse moan in stereo from both outside the house and through the door. Morse had just exerted a lot of energy and an audible moan was a factor.

Morse had been to his niece's house earlier that day.

Morse returned to his niece's home and changed the clocks in her house to confuse the occupants about the time frame.

Morse may have been naked at the time of the murder or he may have left clothes at the Borden house on a previous visit.

Morse returned to the Borden house and MEMORIZED details for an alibi. Morse was not even surprised to see throngs of people and police swarming the house.

Morse had some dried blood on him. He went to the back yard where he used several very moist pears to dilute and rub the blood off. Discarded after use the pears dried quickly in the summer heat and blended in with the ground.

This explains why Morse spend much of the afternoon in the backyard. He was stepping on the bloody pears to make them blend into the ground.

When people became too nosy, Morse reportedly locked some of them in the barn. Eventually insects, animals and the sun destroyed the pears and the blood evidence.

I believe I have addressed motive, opportunity and explained the lack of blood evidence. In his business Morse may have often slaughtered cattle with a similar method and/or chopped wood. The action of swinging a hatchet may have been routine for him.

Rereading your theory, I have a few questions.:
1. If Morse created the note, who did he get to deliver it to the house?
2. When Morse returned to the house, how did he enter through the front door if the night locks were still on?
3. If Abby heard unusual activity in the guest room, why didn't she locate Lizzie or Bridget to find out what was going on, rather than assume that there was an intruder locked in the guest room? If I heard what I thought was an intruder in my house, the last thing I'd do is "burst" in on them with an axe...or even a hatchet.
4. If Andrew had locked the door with one of the old-style skeleton keys, and it was still in the lock on the guest room side, it would not be possible for Abby to insert a key from the other side of the door. So if she can't get her key in the door, does she give it a good hard kick, like on "Cops", and go charging in? (personally, I doubt Abby could get her leg up high enough to kick the door in the right place to get it open)
5. Once Abby had "burst" into the room with Andrew and Morse, she waves the axe? An axe is pretty heavy...I doubt she was doing much waving.
6. So Morse then kills Abby? Did he have an axe of his own up in the guest room, or did he wrestle Abby to the ground and take her axe?
7. Andrew attempted to intervene? Now was Andrew naked as well? When he got hit, did he stagger down the steps and to the sitting room couch naked? Or did he take the time to get dressed first while Morse was hatcheting Abby? Or was Andrew dressed and Morse naked? I'm confused here.
8. So Morse has finished off Abby and goes in search of Andrew? Andrew is sitting nonchalantly on the couch...possibly totally naked. Where are Lizzie and Bridget during all this?
9. Morse hacks Andrew to death...I'm still confused as to when Andrew got dressed.
10. Morse rushes to the front door, naked and bloody, exits, and closes and locks the front..including the night locks! Once outside, he lets out a moan, which Lizzie hears as she comes in the back door.
11. Morse has just committed two murders, he is naked and bloody, and his very first thought is to return to the Emery's and change their clocks! He happens to see a bicycle sitting unattended, so he hops on that and starts to pedal furiously back to the Emerys house. No one notices him, right? Once there, he dismounts, goes into the Emery's house, and locates and changes all their clocks. I have no idea where everyone is, but they apparently don't notice a bloody naked man changing all their clocks.
12. Morse leaves the bicycle at the Emery's and takes the horsecar back to the Bordens. Is he still naked or did he find clothes by now? If he found clothes, he still has blood on him, right? But no one notices that...ok, gotcha.
13. Morse arrives back at the house to throngs of people and police. He just happens to notice he has blood on himself, so he cuts through the throngs of people to get to the backyard. He secures some pears but since the outside of the pears are smooth and can't absorb blood, he has to eat them first. So he gobbles pears and then uses the remnants to wipe off the blood from himself. He must have been pretty sticky by the time he got the blood off.
14. Morse spends the afternoon in the backyard stomping pears into the ground. Did no one find that unusual?
I think if you could address my questions, I could understand your theory a little better.

[kssunflower]

Sally, nice job at poking a few holes through this theory. Now I see Morse allegedly created the infamous note...hmmmm......

[mbhenty]

Life and people can be strange. At least that is what Jim Morrison tried to convience us of.

Before someone gets on the offensive and whips out their Light Saber to cut me up, let us look at the what the word really means:

strange |strānj|
adjective
1 unusual or surprising in a way that is unsettling or hard to understand :
2 not previously visited, seen, or encountered; unfamiliar or alien
unusual, odd, curious, peculiar, funny,

So you see, the word "Strange" is not a bad thing.

So let me add: This was a Strange thread. I have stayed away from it becuase it is soooooooo Strange.

But, around 13 pages ago it went from Strange to "Daft".

daft |daft|
adjective informal
silly; foolish : don't ask such daft questions.
• crazy : have you gone daft?


There is no excuse, rhyme or reason why it has received this much attention...........except that Sex sells.

There is "Zero, Nada, Zilch evidence that Andrew was Gay.

Did not John Morse testify that he owned only one shirt. How many gay men own only one shirt? Ahhh ! the kind that kill.

Discussing the topic past one or two pages is more than Strange, it's Daft. Perhaps the fact that I am commenting on the issue makes me Daft.

If money makes the world go around then Sex must be the lubricant, at least that is how some see it. Sex is interjected into everything. Life is seen through a sexually active mind.

Take them sailing and while you see a "mast" looming above the foam, they see something else. Take them for a walk in the cemetery, you see a obelisk, they see something else, you see fruit or vegetables, they see something else..........put two men in a room alone, they see something else. and so on, and so on.

To some sex is a reason to get up in the morning........the whip cream, the maraschino, cherry, still others, have little interest in desert, or find more pragmatic reasons or pleasures for a situation and not rule it by sex.

To assume that Morse and Borden were gay without the simplest of proof or hint is daft. To let this discussion go this long is daft.

Please understand, this in not an attack, condemnation, or ridicule on the author of this thread or of Straight or Gay people. I am not trying to be cruel or hateful. The attack is not on the person but on the theory, the idea, and the sexual perspective. Daft!

If we are to discuss the events in the life of Ryan Seacrest, Rock Hudson, Leonardo DiCaprio or even Madonna, then I'm sure we can have a constructive sexual debate. Sacco and Vanzetti? I'm sure they spent countless lustful and horny days alone in their cells.

Am I being Sarcastic..........perhaps. Andrew and John? rediculous, absurd, daft.

So, in many ways this is a strange thread........

but, let us not confuse strange with:

Daft, daft, daft............

[SallyG]

Andrew was a wealthy successful business man. Residing near Harvard University, this established banker could have sought financial advice from learned men. Instead John Morse is Borden's confidant? Morse, was Borden's former partner in a furniture store which failed. Gay men often start businesses together as a cover for their relationship. Morse was a horse trader who admits consulting a fortune teller at age 59. (Forty Whacks page 212) Yet we are supposed to believe Andrew spent time with Morse because he valued Morse's insight on business matters? How believable is that? And I suppose Donald Trump fraternizes with Bozo the Clown to glean well reasoned and informed guidance?

Again, I'm a bit confused here. Andrew resided near Harvard? My ex-husband went to Harvard and as I recall, Harvard is in CAMBRIDGE, MA...not Fall River, MA. At least, it was in Cambridge when he attended college. Andrew would have a bit of hike to Harvard from Fall River.

And gay men go into business together as a cover?....now this is BAD. My oldest and youngest son are in business together. I believe I made a mistake in moving to Florida and leaving them up in Maryland. I had no idea that this being in business together was a sign of being gay!

[doug65oh]

Sally? There's a town called Harvard, Massachusetts too. (I couldn't believe it either, 'til I got mail postmarked there!) The town is in Worcester county. See http://www.harvard.ma.us/

[Yooper]

mbhenty, with respect to Jim Morrison, have you ever (as I have) read Lizzie's inquest testimony and recalled the lines:
There's a killer on the road,
His brain is squirmin' like a toad...

[mbhenty]

Yes, that's funny Yooper:

Before posting I went to Jim Morrison's Lyrics. I remember most of them but not really what the song is about, if anything.

Again, I still have no idea, unless he is talking about trusting Strangers.

Many times many of the lyrics by song writers of the 60s and 70s had no real specific meaning. I remember an interview with one of the Beatles, not sure which, when approached and asked for the meaning of a song he said, "it means anything you want it to."

[kssunflower]

Ok, now I am reminded of John Lennon's Nobody Told Me lyrics: Strange days indeed...

[mbhenty]

To anyone who may be gay on this site, and to those who are straight for that matter, please understand that my post above is not my opinion on gay or straight behavior. It is mostly about the sexual approach.

But, to be honest, the "Gay" slant does add weight, though I feel in a negative way, as in, "see, gay behavior makes you violent". If I imagine myself gay I would be insulted somewhat by the "claim without proof". I would feel someone was pointing blame not at a murderer, but at a gay murder. But of course, whether I am gay or not may influence how I see this issue or how I have digested this thread. I may not know what I am taking about here, but it is an honest attempt at a subject matter that makes many uneasy. Sex.


So, I hope I have not offended anyone by expressing my opinion here, especially anyone who may be straight.


So, my condemnation of the sexual theory above is just that, "the sexual theory." If one of the men were gay.........let's say John Morse, then the entire theory could be entertained in an intellectual manner, making the argument more workable or possible. Then an entire array of possibilities could be entertained; such as, "Since Morse was proven to be probably gay, he committed the murders when he was rejected by Andrew and thrown out of the house by Abbie.

But there is 'ZERO' proof or hint that any sex between these two men had anything to do with anything, let alone the murders. Thus, any further discussion about "two wild and crazy gays" (guys) would be banging your head against the wall.

[Tina-Kate]

Ok, now I am reminded of John Lennon's Nobody Told Me lyrics: Strange days indeed...

"Most peculiar, Mama..."

[snokkums]

Quote from rgreen4411: "Another fact which makes me think of Andrew as effeminate is the fact that he wore Lizzies ring on his pinky finger and his fondeness for poetry and herbal tea."

My thought is that maybe Andrew was sexually abusing Lizzie and Morse knew about it. Maybe he was using this information against him. Holding that against him. You know, always calling on hime making sure he has a place to stay when he is in town, instead of staying in a hotel, that kind of thing.

[SallyG]

Where did this information about Andrew's fondness for poetry and herbal tea come from? I can't recall ever hearing that before.

I believe in that era, poetry was very popular among women AND men. Tea was also very popular. I recall in the "Little House on the Prarie" series of books, Pa Ingalls always drank tea. He said it was "a MAN'S drink in cold weather".

I think what bothers me the most about this thread is the way certain characteristics/actitivies are labeled by the author as gay or homosexual. I don't think I've ever seen so many misconceptions about "gay behavior" coming from the mouth of one person. And a self-proclaimed Christian one at that....tsk, tsk!!

My #2 son is gay...and has been since he was a small child. It's not a learned behavior, or a choice...take it from a mother..they are BORN that way. However, he displays none of the characteristics the author of this thread claims are typical of gays. He's an intelligent young man with a Masters degree in forestry from the University of Edinburgh in Scotland, he has a beard, and according to newspaper articles that have been written about him, "looks like a lumberjack".

There is no "typical" gay behavior, any more than there is "typical" heterosexual behavior.

[Shelley]

I am with you on this one MB- it IS all daft to me too. I expect somebody is confusing Garfield Tea, which Andrew was drinking for stomach complaint on Wednesday, with "herbal tea". I read the box the other day and it does contain herbs. I also have to sigh with exasperation every time some guest trots out the old Nance and Lizzie chestnut, Alice and Lizzie, Lizzie and Bridget, Emma and Alice, etc etc. And if wearing a pinkie ring is a sign of gayness- well, I know legions who must be in the closet- including myself. Actually I have to raise one eyebrow over that whole incest thing too- I sure would like to know how any of THAT kind of thing went on in that house without Abby and Emma knowing it- the rooms are practically inside each other.
When I ask guests for their PROOF, or to cite any evidences of these allegations- uh, like Billy Borden the Mysterious Half-Brother- nobody can come up with a thing. One would think the double homicides alone would be thrilling enough for most people without titillating speculations.

[rgreen4411]

The question remains, "Was Andrew gay?"

[rgreen4411]

Incest often occurs with other people in the house aware. They are in denial and see themselves as helpless to stop it. What was Emma to do? Leave and support herself? Everyone was financialy dependent on Andrew.

[Yooper]

There is no evidence I'm aware of to suggest that Andrew Borden was gay, only imagination.

[Constantine]

I would be rather surprised if he was. I would not be surprised if Uncle John was, however.

[SallyG]

If Andrew WAS gay, then he would have no reason to be comitting incest with Lizzie. However, there is no evidence that Andrew was gay. And even if he was "on fire", it's still irrelevent to the murders. Two people in the house that day had opportunity to commit the murders...one had motive. And it had nothing to do with sexual orientation.

[patsy]

I have no proof but over the years I seem to have an impression that fine poetry was enjoyed by men as well as women and would not seem remarkable to anyone.

After reading this whole thread I've forgotten most of what I wanted to say but will say anything is possible but not necessarily probable.

Uncle John going out to the back yard and eating some pears is the most mind boggling thing to me. It would seem he should have rushed right in to see if Lizzie was okay and just be there. So it is an interesting part of the theory to me about the idea of eating some pears to use the juice to sluff off some stain (if I understood it right).

[SallyG]

As I recall, there was a water pump in the barn. Why not just wash up there...I would imagine in the excitement no one would notice someone who had just arrived getting some water in the barn. Using pears to clean off blood seems stretching it a bit.

However, I do think Uncle John knew more than he was letting on. He probably suspected Lizzie right from the beginning...as soon as he heard about the murders! That may be why he was being so careful in setting up his alibi...to make sure Lizzie was not going to try and pin the murders on HIM! He was apparently not on her list of favorite people. But since he was taking note of every detail on his way back to the Borden house, he obviously had found out what had happened way before he reached the house.